Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[BSP]

This makes me wonder on the subject of throws and grabs, who has the worst overall in terms of usefulness? Little Macs seem pretty bad, they don't combo into anything and have poor range, for such a ground dominate character he should get some sort of kill confirm into his up b or something to compensate . Like with M2, I don't care about weight, but I want him to hit super hard and move fast to compensate . I don't care about Macs recovery, but his ground game should be stellar including his grab and throw game to make up for it.

Mac has Dtilt to rising uppercut for a KO confirm. It's pretty reliable at the %'s you're looking to KO someone.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

The most buffed characters are definitely Bowser, Mewtwo, Kirby, and Shulk. Bowser got the Bow Wow, Mewtwo got a bunch of hitbox fixes and a faster f-air, Kirby got one of his biggest problems fixed (killing), and Shulk got a lot of buffs on frame data. Really happy with this patch.

 

[TDK]

Is it the grab itself or is it the slam?

Both the Grab and the actual slam got much faster.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Sadly nothing for Zelda yet though and what's worse......*sniff* Ice climbers are still not here

But I guess this Kirby buff is cool.
Btw from what I read the end lag and FAF for moves hasn't been figured out yet? Has it been now....or...?

 

[C0rvus]

I don't think Mewtwo was ever bottom 10. I have no idea why his ground speed got buffed. Has that ever happened before?
(Is there still hope for Robin? )
Now my opinion of him is forced to improve. I already hated playing against him before, but now... Yuck. Character has even better neutral and better, more consistent coverage and reward per hit. All paired with some of the most consistent kill power in the roster.

Edit: Best thing about this final direct is the official death of the Ice Climbers. Good riddance.

 

[Y2Kay]

Cloud has two huge, Little Mac shaped problems: one, his recovery is so bad that he has to immediately start moving back towards the stage once he's in the air (sans Limit Break), making his recovery easy to track and gimp.

The other problem is that limit break is threatening, but you can just toss him backwards off the stage, forcing him to limit break upb to recover, wasting his limit break. I recognize that better Clouds will rapidly become aware of that, but it's worked pretty consistently for me so far.

He's very fun, but very exploitable.

Grabbing Cloud while he has limit break is a much bigger gamble than when little mac has it. not only is Cloud's "KO Punch " cover a humongous range, can kill in the air,and gives him a mobility boost, Cloud can also use it as a super powerful projectile. He's got it way better than little mac.

 

[Amadeus9]

Bow Wow

please no

 

[Jamurai]

Usage of Limit Break seems pretty versatile, you can use it more often eg. with Side-B to rack up big damage and also keep your special options open eg. using neutral B for traps, or you can be more conservative, keep your speed buffs and only use the buffed special when you really need it eg. down-B hard read, falling Uair > LB Up-B kill confirm, or to recover.

I would say the former is more risky, if you get caught offstage without LB against a good player you may well be dead, but you have access to Up-B OOS and other specials whenever you want including your projectile. On the other hand, the latter is safer in that you will usually have LB Up-B available to save yourself, and also you have more combo and setup opportunities including kill setups like Amadeus mentioned, but you are trying to conserve on using possibly your best OOS option and almost never use your projectile.

Maybe one could switch styles depending on certain matchups. I know I would like to use neutral B a fair bit in the Sonic matchup for example.

EDIT: For Bowser's new kill setup I came up with Koo Pa(h) earlier. idk if that's lame af or not

 

[Y2Kay]

please no

you know you like the name

 

[Spinosaurus]

I don't think Mewtwo was ever bottom 10. I have no idea why his ground speed got buffed. Has that ever happened before?

Actually no, this is the first time a character's attribute like dash speed changed in a patch. Opens up possibilities.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Actually no, this is the first time a character's attribute like dash speed changed in a patch. Opens up possibilities.

Bowser's dash got buffed, too.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

please no

well if we have a bleep bloop and a ding dong, why cant we have a bow wow? Koop hah doesnt flow very well.

 

[Y2Kay]

How much more respectable do you think the patch winners are now? Mewtwo had his ground mobility increased by a noticable amount (11th best in the game), has less landing lag on his aerials, and his dair has become even more vicious. Lucas has a more powerful nair and less lag on his tether. Kirby's up throw now kills (finally!), Bowser has a very versatile up throw that can lead into nair upair and even f-smash, w/ a mobility buff, and Dark Pit had his electroshock arm become more powerful. I'm probably forgetting someone, but u get the point by now.

 

[Nu~]

The most buffed characters are definitely Bowser, Mewtwo, Kirby, and Shulk. Bowser got the Bow Wow, Mewtwo got a bunch of hitbox fixes and a faster f-air, Kirby got one of his biggest problems fixed (killing), and Shulk got a lot of buffs on frame data. Really happy with this patch.

well if we have a bleep bloop and a ding dong, why cant we have a bow wow? Koop hah doesnt flow very well.

Missed an opportunity to call it the "Shell Shock"

As for patch things, has shulk really been changed all that much? With .5% damage increases all around and 2 frames knocked off of his overall landing lag, has he really changed in a notable way?

I feel as if he got shafted, comparatively, this patch. They focused on the right things but they didn't go far enough. Meanwhile bowser and mewtwo are having a party

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I'm personally pleased with the changes Link got. The f-air change especially.

Still miss my old Jab 1 but I'll take what I can get at this stage.

 

[adom4]

I still need to experiment more with Ganon's Nair (it's more consistent but the 1st hit sucks for spacing now) but i'm pretty pleased with the Dair buff & Dark dive buff, Ganon might have an actual OOS option now.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that because Nair's animation is faster we can act out of FH Nair right before we land, i'm pretty excited to see what Ganon can do with it.

 

[TDK]

Greninja's buffs were pretty unnoticeable, though you can combo D-Throw into Sweetspotted up smash for a kill now because of the USmash buff, which is nice.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Perhaps Sakurai and co. will eventually get tired of screwing around with Ganondorf's Nair and give him some meaningful buffs, but until then this patch's batch are so minor as to be almost entirely ignorable.

 

[Kofu]

To everyone comparing the badness of Cloud's recovery to Little Mac's:

Please stop.

I get it. Cloud's recovery is bad. It's exploitable. Probably IS the second worse in the game. But Cloud's physics and, in a lot of ways, options, are superior to Mac's.

His airspeed, acceleration, and speed of changing direction are better (at least the latter two, probably the first as well). When you knock Mac offstage, he's immediately fighting his crappy air physics. This is far less of an issue for Cloud. Cloud's second jump is also probably a little better.

Cloud is also able to use his aerials to defend himself. Mac technically is too, but unless the opponent misspaces horribly it's probably not going to be an issue. This is huge. He's not quite as much of a sitting duck is when drifting back toward the stage. He also has options for stalling his decent, and while Climhazzard doesn't snap the ledge, it covers the area right by the ledge a little better than Rising Uppercut does. It also has more vertical distance.

Mac does have two slight advantages. One is Jolt Haymaker: a critical recovery mixup. Cloud either has to recover high or go right below the ledge. Mac at least has the option to go horizontally for the ledge. He can also use Slip Counter to get to the stage if the opponent is actively trying to swat him away. But it's a gamble, and if he misses he's likely deader than dead.

Overall I'd much rather be sent offstage as Cloud than Little Mac.

Question, if you know you're otherwise screwed how worth is would it be to charge your Limit Meter to try and get Limit Break Climhazzard as an option?

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm personally pleased with the changes Link got. The f-air change especially.

Still miss my old Jab 1 but I'll take what I can get at this stage.

Like I said in the patch thing, Link has had some significant buffs that could increase his viability tenfold.
The meteor version of his D-Air on a grounded opponent can link up to deal a very hefty 26% damage total provided both hits link together. This lasts from 60% to 90% on characters depending on weight, and you really can't DI against it to avoid it due to the oddly large stun Link will give you (Meteorstun as I call it). This can be highly effective on shields, as it will wear down a full shield to merely 14% damage before it breaks. If Link lands both hits, a N-Air can put that down to 3%, or if he can land, he can AC and end up using F-Smash; though the latter is theoretical.

His F-Air is a very extraordinary KO tool now, as well as a new practical Shield poking move; 24% damage on shield is a lot of damage, so it would make sense to find ways to rack up the shield damage to break the shield. It also makes the move a better edge getup option after jumping, since Link can jump pretty well back onto the stage and can hit with both hits. While it does have less combo ability at high damages, it has much, much better finishing quality and is able to KO earlier, making this an amazing edge-guard tool and hopefully may let Link be a better off-stage opponent and spacing opponent.

These two things alone will make Link a bigger threat and more along the lines of a viable character.

I still need to experiment more with Ganon's Nair (it's more consistent but the 1st hit sucks for spacing now) but i'm pretty pleased with the Dair buff & Dark dive buff, Ganon might have an actual OOS option now.

Well, Ganondorf's N-Air links up properly now (despite doing only 19% damage) and has become a viable KO tool and finisher tool against opponents by using D-Throw > N-Air. His N-Air might not deal as much damage, but it's still viable, especially for practical setups from SH FF on the first hit to another attack; since the first hit (at certain places) causes set knockback, Ganondorf could use it to his advantage by SH FF on the first hit and link into F-Tilt and D-Tilt.

Now with D-Air, Ganondorf has the possibility of amazing combo setups there. If an opponent is sent upward from the ground, Ganondorf could possibly take the advantage and perform another attack thanks to FHAC, which allows him to no longer have endlag and allows him to just deal some hefty blows. I'm hoping for some decent 60% D-Air combos to kill moves. Other than that, D-Air is possibly a better shield poking tool.

And don't forget the best buff he has, which pretty much makes it mandatory for opponents to grab him; Reverse Warlock Punch SA. You can't simply roll behind Ganondorf and attack him now, because he will punish and destroy you at 0% to 10% damage (depending on rage) with the attack. Of course, you should just simply grab him, but attacking him is not an option anymore when he activates Warlock Punch on the ground. The Warlock Blade version is also very dangerous since it has the same thing, only this time he has extreme range in the attack (and it's somewhat faster).

Perhaps Sakurai and co. will eventually get tired of screwing around with Ganondorf's Nair and give him some meaningful buffs, but until then this patch's batch are so minor as to be almost entirely ignorable.

What, is Super Armor, a better N-Air link up, Dark Dive OOS option being viable and D-Air buff not enough? Ever since the first patch for the 3DS version, he's been receiving nothing but buff after buff after buff after buff, and you think it's not enough? He's meant to be a very slow (mobility wise) character with extremely powerful (and sometimes fast) attacks. They've buffed him with so much things and they have never removed his Suicide buff he gained from Brawl to this game, which allows him to always win on last stock (him and the opponent) when the move is activated and both are sent to the lower blast line.

Ganondorf has received so many meaningful buffs that the fact that people still complain about him makes me somewhat irritated. He's not going to get a mobility change, he's not going to get extreme power boosts, he's just not. He's just going to get some good buffs that are pretty meaningful in and of themselves.

=========================
Kofu Cloud's recovery is the THIRD worst in the game, behind Ganondorf (vanilla) and Captain Falcon, but in front of Little Mac and Doctor Mario. (It's bad, but not as bad as Doctor Mario's at least.)

 

[TTTTTsd]

To everyone comparing the badness of Cloud's recovery to Little Mac's:

Please stop.

I get it. Cloud's recovery is bad. It's exploitable. Probably IS the second worse in the game. But Cloud's physics and, in a lot of ways, options, are superior to Mac's.

His airspeed, acceleration, and speed of changing direction are better (at least the latter two, probably the first as well). When you knock Mac offstage, he's immediately fighting his crappy air physics. This is far less of an issue for Cloud. Cloud's second jump is also probably a little better.

Cloud is also able to use his aerials to defend himself. Mac technically is too, but unless the opponent misspaces horribly it's probably not going to be an issue. This is huge. He's not quite as much of a sitting duck is when drifting back toward the stage. He also has options for stalling his decent, and while Climhazzard doesn't snap the ledge, it covers the area right by the ledge a little better than Rising Uppercut does. It also has more vertical distance.

Mac does have two slight advantages. One is Jolt Haymaker: a critical recovery mixup. Cloud either has to recover high or go right below the ledge. Mac at least has the option to go horizontally for the ledge. He can also use Slip Counter to get to the stage if the opponent is actively trying to swat him away. But it's a gamble, and if he misses he's likely deader than dead.

Overall I'd much rather be sent offstage as Cloud than Little Mac.

Question, if you know you're otherwise screwed how worth is would it be to charge your Limit Meter to try and get Limit Break Climhazzard as an option?

Charging Limit offstage (if you manage it right) is really critical especially since you can cancel the charge into literally anything for free lol. If you have an idea on how much meter you got, always do this.

I feel like people aren't running away and playing lame enough =P. Nair is stupid for retreating and you can cancel Down-B into literally anything. Runaway is pretty viable with this character until you build limit, then you toss them up with U-Throw or any move that launches vertically and fish for whatever you want.

Not saying he's super amazing but I don't think you can approach him as a character that really "goes in" immediately IMO.

 

[Darkmoone1]

Is limit break even taken into account when anyone ranks Clouds recovery? I know everyone wants it for the kill, but it is a significant factor of the character and it is highly possible to get it more than once in a stock...

 

[SaltyKracka]

It's super armor on the slowest move in the game. Your opponent has to be absolutely braindead to get hit by WP on anything but the hardest read possible.

And then they know that reverse WP has super armor too and you can't even hit them.

Seriously, stop acting like WP is in any way useful.

As for the number of buffs...sure, they keep messing around with his Nair (again and again and again), but this version isn't even a straight up buff, let alone anything near addressing his actual problems. And when you release a character as very nearly a straight port of the worst character in the previous game into a system that if anything favors him even less *coughComboscough* you are going to have to end up buffing them.

 

[TDK]

(It's bad, but not as bad as Doctor Mario's at least.)

going to disagree here.

 

[Wintropy]

Forgive me if this is remiss, but I'd be willing to believe the dev team want Warlock Punch to function as a sort of pseudo Focus Attack. FA's big draw is that it has one hit of super armour to ensure it isn't a total washout in the heat of battle (it's too slow and readable to be of use if you could hit Ryu right out of it), so a quick FA can be used to soak up a hit of damage on an unsuspecting opponent and strike back. Functionally, it's a weird knockoff of Counter, except you trade the damage taken for greater versatility.

The contrast comes into effect when you consider that FA is more than just a pseudo-counter or a strong hit: it's more of a decoy or fake-out than an outright punishment, and most importantly, you can cancel it any time you want (which has the added benefit of being a viable replacement to rolling or a burst movement option both on the ground and in the air). You're not beholden to this massive startup that you can see coming from a mile away, something that really cripples WP's viability in a 1v1 context. I can understand why it is the way it is, since it'd otherwise be an absolute beast in FFAs (it's already easy to just throw it out and hit stray fighters in a FFA setting, having extra armour on it just makes it even more deadly), and I don't think it's ever been intended as a 1v1 option. It's definitely something that benefits 'Dorf in certain game modes over others, but for the one we're considering, yeah, it's not at all a meaningful buff.

 

[Vipermoon]

Link's arrows, boomerang and bombs all double cancel with Cloud's blade beam. I think it has special coding to cancel with projectiles and go through normal attacks.

It clashes with normal attacks. There is nothing special about its priority.

 

[Ulevo]

I think Cloud is good.

Outside the obvious stuff people have mentioned, up air is overrated. It is a decent move but it is too slow to come out to combo with in a lot of situations. In most situations where you would think to go for a up air, neutral air is better. Up tilt combo starts, but so do his neutral air, back air, and down air. Down air is so good. If you do it right, you can full jump down air, fast fall. If you hit their shield and time the fast fall right, you will be positive on shield, hit them and be able to combo into whatever you want, or be able to react immediately on whiff. Neutral air is also absolutely incredible. Cloud has a lot of tech chase and 50/50 situations. He has a good ledge trump back air. Limit Charge is alright. It adds 6 frames to whatever you are doing, which is not neglible, but it is better than shield dropping. Forward Smash is very strong near the ledge. I think just the fact that this character has mobility with these tooks makes a big difference. Players are going to gripe that he has no good throw combos (down throw might work on some characters) but with his mobility, range, damage, set ups and reward I think it does not matter. Combos and set ups are a little elaborate but very rewarding. Also, since he can wall jump and they changed Battlefield's lower half to allow that, I think his recovery is quite doable.

Edit: Sour spot down air into up air kills Sheik at 93% in training and is a true combo. Down air sour spot into forward spike is also a thing near the ledge.

 

[Jams.]

Missed an opportunity to call it the "Shell Shock"

As for patch things, has shulk really been changed all that much? With .5% damage increases all around and 2 frames knocked off of his overall landing lag, has he really changed in a notable way?

I feel as if he got shafted, comparatively, this patch. They focused on the right things but they didn't go far enough. Meanwhile bowser and mewtwo are having a party

I mean, if we're looking at characters that got shafted in this patch, and most certainly take the prize with receiving an honourable mention. Bless their poor, bottom tier souls and pray for undiscovered buffs.

 

[Terotrous]

I mean, if we're looking at characters that got shafted in this patch, and most certainly take the prize with receiving an honourable mention. Bless their poor, bottom tier souls and pray for undiscovered buffs.

I'm hoping that the final patch (the one that comes out with Bayonetta and Corrin) will have Jiggs and Zelda buffs and some Sheik nerfs. Maybe a little Palutena love but she doesn't need it as much.

Of course, I'm most worried about the balancing of Bayonetta and Corrin since they've basically only got one shot to get it right.

 

[LancerStaff]

I mean, if we're looking at characters that got shafted in this patch, and most certainly take the prize with receiving an honourable mention. Bless their poor, bottom tier souls and pray for undiscovered buffs.

Well, Jigglypuff is really hard to fix (considering she's been poorly designed since 64 and all) and Palutena's considered to be decent in Japan last I checked, but Zelda I don't think has much of an excuse.

I'm hoping that the final patch (the one that comes out with Bayonetta and Corrin) will have Jiggs and Zelda buffs and some Sheik nerfs. Maybe a little Palutena love but she doesn't need it as much.

Of course, I'm most worried about the balancing of Bayonetta and Corrin since they've basically only got one shot to get it right.

I think we'll get a patch or two after that. It'd be kinda insane to be releasing two new fighters and not further balance them when they couldn't even get Mewtwo and Lucas right the first, second, or even the third time.

 

[Y2Kay]

Do you think that mewtwo is now tournament viable? He's gotten some of the best buffs ever in smash 4 history. I don't think he'll win a national anytime soon, but do you think with a secondary that could deal with rushdown characters (like ) he could place well?

It's probably too early for a concrete answer, just food for thought

 

[C0rvus]

I anticipate the last DLC releases won't be the last patches.

My fear is that they'll drop Bayonetta on us, she'll be broken as ****, and then she never gets fixed. Keeps me up at night fam

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Do you think that mewtwo is now tournament viable? He's gotten some of the best buffs ever in smash 4 history. I don't think he'll win a national anytime soon, but do you think with a secondary that could deal with rushdown characters (like ) he could place well?

It's probably too early for a concrete answer, just food for thought

Depends, at a national, definitely not. At a local any character can win sooo... not sure.
The buffs definitely help him though.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby's U-Throw buffs aren't that significant. With 100% Rage, Mario doesn't die until 130% with DI. The opponent is basically guaranteed to DI it properly every time due to it's long animation, too.

Also, I don't get the whole thing about Cloud having no kill options. He has things like U-Air/Sour D-Air > Final Touch, U-Air, F-Air and Climhazzard to cover a large amount of %'s on top of two incredible spiking moves and an amazing F-Smash, plus all the other LB moves.

 

[Y2Kay]

I anticipate the last DLC releases won't be the last patches.

My fear is that they'll drop Bayonetta on us, she'll be broken as ****, and then she never gets fixed. Keeps me up at night fam

I was gonna pray about it, but given that she's an angel hunter, I don't think it will help much

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I anticipate the last DLC releases won't be the last patches.

My fear is that they'll drop Bayonetta on us, she'll be broken as ****, and then she never gets fixed. Keeps me up at night fam

I think people are failing to see the flaws in her design. She's really tall, and has a large hurtbox. So she can be spaced out and will likely lose to smaller characters.
Her combo game seems ZSS level though, she'll definitely be really strong though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think I'm gonna stick it out with Cloud. I like the cut of his jib, let's see if I can find anything. Gonna try and put a vid up on just basic Limit Cancelling stuff and whatnot, it hasn't been talked about a lot here but it's really cool.

As for Mewtwo I still think his problems very much exist, he's just gotten noticeable improvements. Turning into one of the fastest moving characters in the game on the ground is pretty good for dashgrabbing and his USmash, and all of his aerials have gotten better.

Dunno if he's tournament viable yet but he is definitely noticeably better.

Bayo looks like combo crazy but also 1 million multihits so trades are gonna suck for her IMO. We have 3 months of development left so this is only speculation and not even worth thinking about, but that's just what I can pull from it. She'll be really good though if it all pans out the way it looks it will.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's buffs were pretty unnoticeable, though you can combo D-Throw into Sweetspotted up smash for a kill now because of the USmash buff, which is nice.

What? The frame data didn't change on either move. How does that become a combo just because of a minor buff to Usmash's knockback?

If Greninja actually had Dthrow Usmash he'd be top tier.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

In the trailer it specifically stated Bayonetta is going to have really bad start-up on her moves.

das bad

 

[Darkmoone1]

going to disagree here.

So long as Cloud has the ability to hold that LB for a better recovery, I will agree to disagree.

Unless I knew for sure that my next LB attack could land kill, I will most certainly hold onto it for better stats and a better recovery.