Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[FullMoon]

You guys talking about Cloud's recovery just make me go "Well this is going to be a fun recovery to mess with using Hydro Pump"

I don't really know much about Cloud yet since I haven't bought him yet, but what are his physics? What's his fall speed and stuff?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So unnoted so far from the M2 boards, apparently his dash went from about 21st to 11th fastest and his nair combos into a lot more moves. Shadow ball has half the recoil too.

Keep in mind , unconfirmed. Regarding the dash speed one though, a lot of members have felt this effect far.

I can't test these until Thursday but great Scot those are nice buffs if true!

I feel this is unlikely.

 

[TTTTTsd]

My immediate feelings for the Pit vs. Cloud matchup is that it'll be tough for Cloud. Pit puts a damper on Cloud's ability to charge limits for starters, since whenever either is sent flying a quick arrow will interrupt it. (Very noticeable, since I'd see one or two less limits if I used Pit over Dark Pit when I didn't get a cheesy Electroshock KO, hehe.) Pit's got a really strong juggle game, and Cloud's Nair doesn't seem to do much to Pit's Uair. Pit seems to have the advantage at midrange since Blade Beam is pretty much reactable. Close up it could really go either way, not too bad for either character though. Biggest problem for Cloud is, well, recovery. You'd really have to be careful about your double jump (which seems especially big to me, surprised nobody's said anything) since it's so integral to his recovery. Clamhazard doesn't seem overly difficult to challenge with Pit's Dair, and since it has to be used so rigidly it's also not hard to block with Guardian Orbitars either.

I know I'm basically saying his recovery is bad, but that's really what the matchup comes down to.

I imagine it's like 6:4 Pit's favor. Not domination but Cloud probably doesn't like the offstage part. I think Cloud does better vs. Dark Pit than he would Pit though, the worse arrows kinda help mitigate some of the problems offstage IMO.

Strictly DAY ONE opinion though.

 

[Raikaru]

Yeah but Electroshock Arm hits horizontally. :x

 

[KuroganeHammer]

OH btw, Cloud's weight sits at 100 alongside Mii Fighters when on default, and old Brawl Lucario and Ivysaur. Limit Break does NOT affect his weight, I believe it increases his gravity, which explains the lower jump height and higher vertical knockback.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Welp, looks like that's going to get patched.

That or it's intended. Think about it, a pommel strike that's almost like a trip... well, a shin hit that causes you to fall, but some people could get up... in games... stuff...

It is probably intended with two hit combo down smashes. Mii Gunner's down smash can also be teched.

 

[Ffamran]

It is probably intended with two hit combo down smashes. Mii Gunner's down smash can also be teched.

Huh... What about Toon Link's? Should have heard complaints by now or since Brawl. I'm guessing Ganondorf's special since he lifts you in the air instead of sliding you around?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

So we all saw the huge Bayonetta combo in the direct, of course. So I have a question. What are your guys' thoughts on setting the C-Stick to specials (a B-Stick if you will) to possibly make it easier to perform if it's even hard at all. Of course we won't know until February when she comes out but just some food for thought.

 

[bc1910]

Hydro Pump ruins Cloud's recovery. Because it doesn't auto-snap until the very end he literally can't get past Hydro Pump if you do it properly.

Any post that lists Cloud's strengths while ignoring his major weaknesses (awful recovery, crappy throws, crappy optipns vs shield in general) is gonna make him seem top tier. Let's remember to look at the whole picture. His viability at this point will hinge on how people start to use LB. Does anyone have the frame data for the down B limit attack?

Bowser gets a hoo hah. 50/50 on most characters, looks guaranteed on light fast fallers like Fox and Sheik. Big win for him. Should be sailing up the tier list.

Lucas' grabs are pretty good now. Still decently punishable and dashgrab is still kinda bad with its range and ending lag but you're less likely to get blown up for missing. Standing grab in particular is scary.

I also felt a Mewtwo dash speed increase? Not sure if placebo.

 

[PK Gaming]

Played a bit more with Cloud and he seems pretty good.

He's got amazing tools (dtilt, uair, nair) and his Limit Break specials are godlike. His recovery is extremely, extremely bad though.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Huh... What about Toon Link's? Should have heard complaints by now or since Brawl. I'm guessing Ganondorf's special since he lifts you in the air instead of sliding you around?

After checking out the frame data for the down smashes, it seems that Toon Link's down smash has less lag between hits than Mii Gunner's and Cloud's. I am not sure about why Ganondorf's down smash links properly though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hydro Pump ruins Cloud's recovery. Because it doesn't auto-snap until the very end he literally can't get past Hydro Pump if you do it properly.

Any post that lists Cloud's strengths while ignoring his major weaknesses (awful recovery, crappy throws, crappy optipns vs shield in general) is gonna make him seem top tier. Let's remember to look at the whole picture. His viability at this point will hinge on how people start to use LB. Does anyone have the frame data for the down B limit attack?

Bowser gets a hoo hah. 50/50 on most characters, looks guaranteed on light fast fallers like Fox and Sheik. Big win for him. Should be sailing up the tier list.

Lucas' grabs are pretty good now. Still decently punishable and dashgrab is still kinda bad with its range and ending lag but you're less likely to get blown up for missing. Standing grab in particular is scary.

I also felt a Mewtwo dash speed increase? Not sure if placebo.

down b is like frame 16

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hydro Pump ruins Cloud's recovery. Because it doesn't auto-snap until the very end he literally can't get past Hydro Pump if you do it properly.

Any post that lists Cloud's strengths while ignoring his major weaknesses (awful recovery, crappy throws, crappy optipns vs shield in general) is gonna make him seem top tier. Let's remember to look at the whole picture. His viability at this point will hinge on how people start to use LB. Does anyone have the frame data for the down B limit attack?

Bowser gets a hoo hah. 50/50 on most characters, looks guaranteed on light fast fallers like Fox and Sheik. Big win for him. Should be sailing up the tier list.

Lucas' grabs are pretty good now. Still decently punishable and dashgrab is still kinda bad with its range and ending lag but you're less likely to get blown up for missing. Standing grab in particular is scary.

I also felt a Mewtwo dash speed increase? Not sure if placebo.

Finishing touch is F16 and is strong anywhere you use it. Not really comparable to KO punch, it has a nice big two way hitbox that covers in front and behind. It's huge. EDIT: GOD DAMN YOU AERODROME LOL

Cloud's limit is amazing. Once you start using the charge (which is 100% non-committal btw, you can cancel out of it FOR FREE and change your momentum, not B-Reverse) it becomes very easy to accumulate Limit and save yourself whether it be offstage or with a kill. He's very fun once you "figure him out", so to speak.

 

[Browny]

Feels like Mewtwo got buffed the most of any character seriously.

His changes are actually all noticeable and significant. Sure they arent bowser u-throw level buff, but he has had so many things improved now.

Fair is now safe on block. If the opponent lacks a fast, long-range dtilt you can get caught in a blockstring. That means a lot on a character with such powerful throws and massive shield damage on many attacks.

 

[Ghostbone]

How long does down-b last though
Does it only hit on frame 16 or is it like 16-20 or something.

Pretty important for covering ledge options.

 

[LancerStaff]

I imagine it's like 6:4 Pit's favor. Not domination but Cloud probably doesn't like the offstage part. I think Cloud does better vs. Dark Pit than he would Pit though, the worse arrows kinda help mitigate some of the problems offstage IMO.

Strictly DAY ONE opinion though.

Yeah, Dark Pit's mostly more useful against characters that recover horizontally for obvious reasons. Although now that Electroshock is strictly the better of the two I'd consider him in matchups where we don't get a lot of mileage out of arrows like against Ness, G&W and the like.

Oh yeah, probably the most significant change this patch is that doubles is fun again. Villager and G&W's pocket and bucket have like 0.5 modifiers for teammates' projectiles. Sheik & Watch shouldn't need to be banned.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, Dark Pit's mostly more useful against characters that recover horizontally for obvious reasons. Although now that Electroshock is strictly the better of the two I'd consider him in matchups where we don't get a lot of mileage out of arrows like against Ness, G&W and the like.

Oh yeah, probably the most significant change this patch is that doubles is fun again. Villager and G&W's pocket and bucket have like 0.5 modifiers for teammates' projectiles. Sheik & Watch shouldn't need to be banned.

Considering DP's new Side-B, he actually HAS a use in certain MUs now. Like you said, arrows not mattering and whatnot, since his Side-B is swole now.

Truly electrifying~

 

[Aunt Jemima]

... Apparently Villager's Pocket, G&W's Bucket and PK Magnet for both characters is nerfed when in a doubles scenario?

Can somebody test this?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Finishing touch is F16 and is strong anywhere you use it. Not really comparable to KO punch, it has a nice big two way hitbox that covers in front and behind. It's huge. EDIT: GOD DAMN YOU AERODROME LOL

Cloud's limit is amazing. Once you start using the charge (which is 100% non-committal btw, you can cancel out of it FOR FREE and change your momentum, not B-Reverse) it becomes very easy to accumulate Limit and save yourself whether it be offstage or with a kill. He's very fun once you "figure him out", so to speak.

LOVE ME

 

[Konneh]

This is weird, but for those that played Final Fantasy VII, what could you do while taking damage other than counter if you had that Materia? Cloud doesn't have that, so... In most RPGs, you take damage, block, or have a chance to avoid them, but in most cases, you're taking damage. I wonder if that has to play with why Cloud's disadvantage is bad?

Late reply, but you would heal up after taking damage, if the damage is significant enough to threaten you - hence I doubt that this played into Cloud's design philosophy.

In a hypothetical game where shields were really good and hence good grab and throw games became very important, where would Cloud stand? When I dabbled around with him, I felt like a lot of my approaches could be punished. Damn shame, too, because with a character so fast, I really want to apply pressure and play agressively, but turns out that, at least for me, defensive play worked a lot better. Does he possess any safety on shield, except for sliding past the enemy with dtilt (and couldn't that actually be punished with turnaround options?)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Late reply, but you would heal up after taking damage, if the damage is significant enough to threaten you - hence I doubt that this played into Cloud's design philosophy.

In a hypothetical game where shields were really good and hence good grab and throw games became very important, where would Cloud stand? When I dabbled around with him, I felt like a lot of my approaches could be punished. Damn shame, too, because with a character so fast, I really want to apply pressure and play agressively, but turns out that, at least for me, defensive play worked a lot better. Does he possess any safety on shield, except for sliding past the enemy with dtilt (and couldn't that actually be punished with turnaround options?)

Bair is fairly safe on shield especially when well spaced, actually!

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

I can't confirm Mewtwo's runspeed from memory, but I'm positive that the Shadow Ball recoil has been greatly reduced. FAir is also much easier to land. I can't confirm landing lag changes since I only started playing Mewtwo extensively about a week ago, but I hear NAir leads into some saucy things now.

I'm most interested in the Confusion changes, if there are any to its functionality. Haven't had the chance to use it on live opponents yet.

 

[BSP]

... Apparently Villager's Pocket, G&W's Bucket and PK Magnet for both characters is nerfed when in a doubles scenario?

Can somebody test this?

They are. If you use any of those moves on a projectile from a teammate, it does less damage or you heal less. Player 1 made a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScO8RGiHITU

He didn't show team healing nerf, but he said Falco laser healed 4% on teams, but 8% as enemies.

 

[Konneh]

They are. If you use any of those moves on a projectile from a teammate, it does less damage or you heal less. Player 1 made a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScO8RGiHITU

He didn't show team healing nerf, but he said Falco laser healed 4% on teams, but 8% as enemies.

I really greatly appreciate this. It means that instead of having arbitrary "We don't allow X, Y and Z" rules in a 2 on 2 tournament, patches have taken care of at least one really disproportionally strong composition, which was Sheik + GnW.
Yet, it leaves me wondering how well moves from the two new announced DLC characters will do in a doubles meta. Pinning a character to the ground while your team partner charges Falcon Punch sounds fun, but it's nothing that couldn't already be done out of a grab.

 

[Vipermoon]

After extensively playing Cloud and playing against Cloud it's obvious this character loses hard to shield. He has no answer to them. His Limit Breaks are easily shielded and his grabs do nothing. His projectile is reactable and easily shielded with its low damage. The rest of his moveset doesn't scream shield pressure either. It's like what you do against Fox at high %s except Fox has kill setups.

I also find that I am not scared of his range at all! For such a huge sword, I didn't feel threatened what-so-ever by his "range" as Marth.

With the shield stuff out of the way, he has some really good stuff. Utilt, Nair, and Uair are amazing. I don't know how Uair made it through development. Short hop fast fall autocancel, low landing lag, fast start-up, 13%, powerful, enormous hitboxes that happen to last forever. What is this move!?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Pinning a character to the ground while your team partner charges Falcon Punch sounds fun, but it's nothing that couldn't already be done out of a grab.

I mean, you don't really see that very often outside of a 2v1 situation anyways. In a 2v2 scenario something like that is broken up quickly.

And really, we don't know for sure how Corrin/Kamui's pinning thingie works exactly (timing/frame data).

As for Cloud: I think he's a lot better than what some people are giving him credit for. His dookie recovery will hamper his effectiveness only until Limit stuff is optimized/people like Minordeth figure out quirks that assist him/he actually gets a semblance of a gameplan and neutral aside from day 1 strats.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Minordeth]

So Cloud,

1.) He seems decent.

2.) Limit Break is pretty dope, and the threat of it is real. Yeah, you can hit him with projectiles, but it's lagless and he can play keep-away pretty well with his speed. Plus, it charges even if you do hit him.

3.) His disadvantage is also real. This man seems to get juggled like nobodies business. On the other hand, that Utilt is godly. I mean, the hitbox seems to beat everything and it extends to the tip of the sword. So he can threaten landings like a boss.

4.) Blade Beam is basically just like hadoken with a bigger hitbox and transcendence. Actually, if you treat it like hadoken and use it for traps, it works wonders. It's weird that I can set up Ryu traps with Cloud, but whatevs.

5.) The reaction to his recovery is overrated. It's not anywhere near Little Mac. Pro-tip, you can use Blade Beam to move slightly forward. Do that. I don't have a problem making it back. I'd put his recovery on maybe Captain Falcon's level. Not good, but you can cover yourself with blade beam and hug the stage to snap if need be.

6.) Man has disjoints for days. And dtilt and utilt are disgusting.

 

[Dre89]

Bowser has been massively buffed. He's got 30% combos out of grab and the boo-zah has like a 50% window on most characters.

Unlike DK he has a massive dashgrab range an his jab doesn't need to tipper to combo into grab.

 

[Minordeth]

I feel like we were just discussing Bowser's alleged bootiness - if he was booty, how booty was he, etc. - an now he is suddenly beasting. Bowser is kinda sorta like, dangerous now. He already had pretty great grab range both pivot, standing, and dash, and now it just looks a little ridiculous.

Bowser mains can actually bring him out of the terrarium now.

 

[Dre89]

I feel like we were just discussing Bowser's alleged bootiness - if he was booty, how booty was he, etc. - an now he is suddenly beasting. Bowser is kinda sorta like, dangerous now. He already had pretty great grab range both pivot, standing, and dash, and now it just looks a little ridiculous.

Bowser mains can actually bring him out of the terrarium now.

To be honest I always thought Bowser wasn't that far behind DK before this patch, but this should push his meta.

Like with DK, I suspect what will happen is that the grab might make people explore the chatacter more, and people will realise strengths not related to the grab they wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

Before DK's grab patch people didn't realise how good regular upb and his boxing was. His uptilt is disgusting. It does everything and has no weaknesses other than an average FAF. But people didn't know that until the grab enticed them to learn the character.

 

[Kofu]

Are you guys sure Blade Beam is transcendent? I've seen it clank with Shadow Ball and once Lloid starts moving it clanks with that too.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Are you guys sure Blade Beam is transcendent? I've seen it clank with Shadow Ball and once Lloid starts moving it clanks with that too.

Limit Break Blade Beam is transcendent.

On the topic of Cloud's throws, ignore F-Throw and D-Throw entirely. They're both garbage.

B-Throw on the other hand, at low %s? Great for positioning and mixups (awesome IASA).

Once you start hitting the middle %s, you have a grab you can still use! U-Throw launches them really high, it has poor IASA but they go high enough for you to harass them with Uairs.

He's not amazing vs. shield but these two grabs help a lot and I'd recommend more experimentation. It's his only on-stage roadblock IMO and I think these throws are key in getting around that.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It isn't. I've beaten it out a lot in Cloud dittos using his aerials. edit: talking about reg btw, not lb.

Unrelated, but max rage U-Throw kills Mario at 107% on FD as Kirby. Previously it killed at 135%. I haven't tested anything thoroughly so I don't know how DI will affect this or what the percent is like with plausible Rage, but given what the numbers were last patch, I don't see Kirby's U-Throw becoming that great.

Unless the knockback angle was changed or something to reduce the impact of DI, in which case it's gonna be great.

 

[Browny]

Limit Break Blade Beam is transcendent.

On the topic of Cloud's throws, ignore F-Throw and D-Throw entirely. They're both garbage.

B-Throw on the other hand, at low %s? Great for positioning and mixups (awesome IASA).

Once you start hitting the middle %s, you have a grab you can still use! U-Throw launches them really high, it has poor IASA but they go high enough for you to harass them with Uairs.

He's not amazing vs. shield but these two grabs help a lot and I'd recommend more experimentation. It's his only on-stage roadblock IMO and I think these throws are key in getting around that.

If the only redeeming quality of your throw game is that it puts the enemy far away from you but isnt a KO throw, then its not a redeeming quality.

Combo throw, tech chase, 50:50 or KO throw otherwise its in the bin for your throw game.

Aunt Jemima do a 0% rage uthrow on Mario from the centre of FD and DI diagonal downwards.

So if you're facing to the right, DI diagonal down right. I wanna know what it kills at now, it might now be one of the strongest in the game if it has a good angle with that much raw knockback.

 

[Thinkaman]

If the only redeeming quality of your throw game is that it puts the enemy far away from you but isnt a KO throw, then its not a redeeming quality.

Combo throw, tech chase, 50:50 or KO throw otherwise its in the bin for your throw game.

I mean, I'm not sure this applies here, but it's totally legit to have a throw that creates distance on a character that really wants distance, particularly if it is a high % damage throw.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If the only redeeming quality of your throw game is that it puts the enemy far away from you but isnt a KO throw, then its not a redeeming quality.

Combo throw, tech chase, 50:50 or KO throw otherwise its in the bin for your throw game.

I'm listing them in comparison to his other throws. B-Throw and U-Throw are passable and have purpose, in situations where you're going to NEED to land a grab it's best to avoid his other two throws.

Also I'd argue putting them far away from you in the case of Cloud is very much a redeeming quality considering his entire Limit Break mechanic, but you know.....

Regardless, B-Throw and U-Throw aren't amazing or incredibly good but they're his best throws because they have a very basic purpose even if it's not that great. F-Throw just sucks and D-Throw is really weird and unreliable + bad IASA.

EDIT: Thinkaman sniped me. Dang!

 

[Browny]

Also I'd argue putting them far away from you in the case of Cloud is very much a redeeming quality considering his entire Limit Break mechanic, but you know.....

This is what I think too and is what makes his throws make sense. If they dont want to overtune it to be KO throws, the throws allow him to charge a very important part of his moveset.

That said, the throw game still sucks in a game where the majority of the cast gets tons of free damage from throws and the top tiers get absolutely disgusting punishes from them. Clouds throws are just simply bottom tier compared to that even when they serve their purpose of charging limit break.

Someone has to have the worst throws and clouds arent looking too good right now.

 

[Rizen]

Link's arrows, boomerang and bombs all double cancel with Cloud's blade beam. I think it has special coding to cancel with projectiles and go through normal attacks.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is what I think too and is what makes his throws make sense. If they dont want to overtune it to be KO throws, the throws allow him to charge a very important part of his moveset.

That said, the throw game still sucks in a game where the majority of the cast gets tons of free damage from throws and the top tiers get absolutely disgusting punishes from them. Clouds throws are just simply bottom tier compared to that even when they serve their purpose of charging limit break.

Someone has to have the worst throws and clouds arent looking too good right now.

Fair enough. I have to agree, they seem designed mostly to push people away which is conducive with Limit. So in the scheme of the character itself they do their job but in comparison to the cast they're quite weak, yes. I suppose that's the trade off for having a volatile and very useful Limit Break mechanic.

 

[Yonder]

This is what I think too and is what makes his throws make sense. If they dont want to overtune it to be KO throws, the throws allow him to charge a very important part of his moveset.

That said, the throw game still sucks in a game where the majority of the cast gets tons of free damage from throws and the top tiers get absolutely disgusting punishes from them. Clouds throws are just simply bottom tier compared to that even when they serve their purpose of charging limit break.

Someone has to have the worst throws and clouds arent looking too good right now.

This makes me wonder on the subject of throws and grabs, who has the worst overall in terms of usefulness? Little Macs seem pretty bad, they don't combo into anything and have poor range, for such a ground dominate character he should get some sort of kill confirm into his up b or something to compensate . Like with M2, I don't care about weight, but I want him to hit super hard and move fast to compensate . I don't care about Macs recovery, but his ground game should be stellar including his grab and throw game to make up for it.