Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[TTTTTsd]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=127531413

Cloud's jab is apparently not Frame 7 at all. Look at the shield values on that Bair! Mmmm

 

[Raikaru]

Been trying some Mewtwo and that less landing lag plus giving Mewtwo actual hitboxes on his tail has really pushed him to the point where I don't think we can really ignore him anymore. I'm not saying he's high tier or anything but this buff has been really nice to him.

His Bair is a pretty good disjointed attack which can be used while edgeguarding for some safe gimping, his Up air has killing power and can be used as a get away from me tool, His dair is active for longer which is nice. Mewtwo already had his amazing upthrow.

The only change I'm confused on is his Down Throw and Side B.

Bowser's new Upthrow can also be used to 50/50 into Fsmash.

 

[DanGR]

I've had really a positive experience with Cloud so far. At first it seemed that his poorish frame data would hold him back, but the more I understand the character, the more I realize how amazing it is to be -that- fast and mobile with a big sword. There hasn't been a true sword character in smash before with that much air speed, air acceleration and deceleration. It's a nice take on the big ole' sword archetype.

edit: My bad. Roy seems to clearly have better air speed, but not as much air deceleration and acceleration. : P I give Cloud the thumbs up overall in the mobility department.

 

[Browny]

Have you played as roy before

Also R Raikaru
"Bowser's new Upthrow can also be used to 50/50 into Fsmash."

When a 50:50 scenario has one half leading into one of the strongest attacks in the entire game, it doesn't stay a 50:50 since people are not going to take that risk that often.

@ILOVESMASH
"The changes made to his U-Throw pretty much removes one of his biggest issues; his poor advantageous state. "

It helps, but hardly removes it. Advantage state is not purely limited to the reward you get off a grab. A spammy, safe character like sheik can play the keep away game for days on bowser. Bowser will still get his hits in, but his advantage state remains identical as it was before this patch.

Advantage state needs to cover throw positioning, general combos (like MKs follow ups from dthrow/uair/utilt) and edgeguarding so saying the patch removed his issue is going way too far.

I feel like nitpicking today.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Have you played as roy before

I think he means for someone to be that fast AND have a giant sword at the same time.

Roy's is kinda more like a dagger than anything lol

Also, Mewtwo's landing lag buff seems HUGE. Maybe not enough for him to jump to high tier, but having 3-4 frames of landing lag shaved off of all your aerials seems like a pretty big deal.

Kirby's up throw buff is also pretty big, and now KOs around 30% earlier; though he still sucks at approaching, it does help one of his issues with killing, and is pretty much one of the strongest up-throws now.

 

[Browny]

If Mewtwo got less landing lag on fair, I havent tested, this means it should somewhat be a block string into dtilt which itself is a almost a frame-safe block string into grab unless you react instantly.

swag

 

[Jaguar360]

The changes to Mewtwo's up air are pretty danged significant, as far as I can tell. Basically the move went from a minor nuisance to something that can potentially reverse the momentum of a match.

First, even putting aside its kill power now (especially in high-altitude juggles), consider a situation where Mewtwo is recovering off stage and goes below the ledge. In the past, Mewtwo could up air through the platform to hit the opponent. It was a cute move, but it didn't do all that much, and sometimes you could also get hit out of it and fall to your death.

Now, though, not only are the hitboxes improved, but the increased knockback means that if the opponent gets hit by your tail they get sent rocketing through the air. It might not be enough to kill them, no, but it gives you ample time to get back on stage and now you're on stable ground, they're above you in a disadvantageous state, AND they have to be wary about continued up air juggles.

Second, because it IS a kill move now at higher percents, it's another option to threaten with while landing. In the past you could maybe get away with landing a fair or a dair on top of unsuspecting opponents, but that was only one of two offensive measures. However, up air is now an option to mix up that situation (as is bair and its new fancy power/hitboxes).

I don't know if Mewtwo's going to shoot up the tier lists or anything, but he's basically gotten a new significant tool on top of a bunch of smaller buffs (those landing lag buffs my goodness), and it means that his advantage, disadvantage, and neutral are all better in a noticeable way.

Plus, short hop u-air is super good now. Now that the hitboxes are better, it can be used more to combo into u-tilt/d-ilt or f-air with the front hit at low/lower mid percents respectively and back air with the back hit at lower mid percents.

The new f-air hitbox placement is also really nice. Nothing new combos into it (perhaps aside from the U-tilt > F-air I mentioned before), but it's more reliable now.

D-throw's angle change seems pretty insignificant. It needed an endlag decrease like Greninja's to really be more useful.

Overall, liking Mewtwo's changes.

 

[lbrasz44]

Some stuff I noticed for Cloud

Having neutral B and limit break essentially forces a constant approach on a respectable Cloud player, and with the frame data he has, I think Cloud would be more of a baiting and punish character, or just defensive overall. Whether that's a good thing remains to be seen as Sheik can still easily manhandle him, and I'd imagine other speedy characters would too.

Dash attack isn't great when shielded. His tilts overall are great, everyone's already praising up tilt, down tilt is great for acting out of shield or closing in on an opening. It would also be one of his more reliable combo starters as his throws are a bit weird at first impression for that. Forward tilt gets the job done I suppose

Not much of an edgeguarding game as one would like, as you would basically need limit to get back after attempting dair off stage. Its better anyways to spend that time building up limit break I think.

One of the best uairs I'd say, and I definitely that agree landing the meteor just feels geewwwd man. His bair is nice too and could kill. His nair is alright, although it won't help him from juggles.

So far I honestly think he's the mid tieriest character to ever mid-tier. He's got some great options and could definitely get the follow ups from a guy that knows what they're doing, but there are some drawbacks that I think would really hold him back from breaking out in the scene. He's another guy I'd see doing decent against most of the roster except for the guy's at the top such as sheik, zss and mario, which is story for so many other characters I get the feeling he'll just get lumped in the middle of the pile.

 

[Browny]

How does cloud handle being utilt/grab combod by mario, does he have quick aerials to get out, how does his fall speed/weight factor in.

 

[Mario766]

After watching some things of Cloud, my opinion definitely has risen. Recovery is still a major issue that a lot of good players will look to abuse, but his combos look solid out of falling up air and his tilts are very exceptional. I can see KO options being another issue.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

How does cloud handle being utilt/grab combod by mario, does he have quick aerials to get out, how does his fall speed/weight factor in.

You've been on this thread long enough to know that reward is the only thing that matters right?
*sarcasm*

 

[TDK]

I can see KO options being another issue.

Most definitely. Limit Neutral B might be his best one, seeing as his smashes don't kill well into the 130s without rage [except for F-Smash, which can be fallen out of.]

Also, Side-B seems really bad with Cloud. I've had things fall out of it in training mode on the setting where they're programmed to do nothing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Most definitely. Limit Neutral B might be his best one, seeing as his smashes don't kill well into the 130s without rage [except for F-Smash, which can be fallen out of.]

Also, Side-B seems really bad with Cloud. I've had things fall out of it in training mode on the setting where they're programmed to do nothing.

Limit Break Side-B is the only version you should use. Non-limit side-B is an interesting far out recovery stall though.

All of his limit breaks kill really well, and DSmash is something nobody talks about for some reason. That being said, he doesn't have an EASY time doing it, it does take a bit of work.

I think the character has a lot of potential though. GSM Void is already putting in work and finding out awesome stuff.

 

[Mario766]

Because his Down Smash can be teched.

It could become useless if people see it coming.

 

[Ffamran]

Because his Down Smash can be teched.

It could become useless if people see it coming.

Wait, what? Really? So, that means you can tech both his Down Smash and Climhazzard. Oh, and his Dair, but spikes can be teched after all...

 

[Mario766]

Wait, what? Really? So, that means you can tech both his Down Smash and Climhazzard. Oh, and his Dair, but spikes can be teched after all...

https://twitter.com/SmashHighlights/status/676942935213129728

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's just day one with him so who really knows, but Cloud sure feels top tier to me.

The limit moves are basically absurd. Limit Cross Slash is safe on block, Limit Blade Beam does 19% and kills near edges (just trap random landings with it), and Finishing Touch kills absurdly early (60-70% against another Cloud from anywhere on the stage). Just charging limit puts such incredible pressure on your opponent since Cloud becomes an overwhelming threat as soon as that bar fills; sitting on limit forces your opponent to walk on eggshells, and you can afford to just guess with limit moves too since the only real downside of guessing wrong on Limit Cross Slash is losing your meter (default Cross Slash also seems like a generally really good move, but I need to lab it to really understand it fully).

Dtilt is a completely ridiculous move itself. As far as we can tell, it's safe on block unless spaced so badly that you are almost trying to make your spacing optimally bad. You can just kinda poke with dtilt a lot, and it pays off consistently. Either they block and you pass through them to improve your position, or they don't block and the hit puts them in a really bad spot. What an incredible move.

Dash attack is obviously not safe on block, but it has really monstrous priority and scoops people off ledges. It's no superstar of a move, but it really is an above average dash attack so I dunno why people would be down on it.

Drop shield dsmash is a really nice option to have as a really high reward hit for a frequently applicable punish option, especially when people pressure you with your back to the edge so dsmash can kill early. Cloud basically forces people to play respectfully enough to just not do anything that unsafe with that option; it's wonderful to have.

Cloud's nair is so fast for the type of move it is; it felt like Cloud could just hit nair to disrupt pretty much anything and everything. I already think Shulk's nair was a super undervalued move, and Cloud's nair is like the same thing with a super favorable sacrifice of just a little range for a ton more speed.

Almost Cloud's entire moveset just barfs damage and kill power, and while Cloud seems to have relatively limited set-ups, his disjoints are top class and he has a lot of safe options. I feel like some people will struggle to end stocks with him since he doesn't have easy bake kill set-ups like fast characters, but remember how limit pressures people and you can afford to go for safe guesses often enough to end stocks pretty early on average. Worst case scenario his dthrow seems to eventually kill.

I really didn't like his usmash as a move (seems to have a pretty bad speed-power ratio). I don't really understand why he has two meteors when he can just use deep off-stage situations to charge half a bar of limit instead of going for a chase (and if you have limit up, your ledge traps are just plain nasty). Those are really the only criticisms I have for Cloud. He's awesome, and I'm very strongly considering switching mains to him at this point. I'm that impressed.

 

[Mario766]

Limit Cross Slash is -16 on block. It isn't safe. N-Air being frame 5 and auto cancel is pretty nutty, that's for sure. His recovery is enough to remove him from top tier, it's garbage and is a real factor.

 

[Ffamran]

https://twitter.com/SmashHighlights/status/676942935213129728

Welp, looks like that's going to get patched.

That or it's intended. Think about it, a pommel strike that's almost like a trip... well, a shin hit that causes you to fall, but some people could get up... in games... stuff...

 

[TDK]

It's just day one with him so who really knows, but Cloud sure feels top tier to me.

The limit moves are basically absurd. Limit Cross Slash is safe on block, Limit Blade Beam does 19% and kills near edges (just trap random landings with it), and Finishing Touch kills absurdly early (60-70% against another Cloud from anywhere on the stage). Just charging limit puts such incredible pressure on your opponent since Cloud becomes an overwhelming threat as soon as that bar fills; sitting on limit forces your opponent to walk on eggshells, and you can afford to just guess with limit moves too since the only real downside of guessing wrong on Limit Cross Slash is losing your meter (default Cross Slash also seems like a generally really good move, but I need to lab it to really understand it fully).

Dtilt is a completely ridiculous move itself. As far as we can tell, it's safe on block unless spaced so badly that you are almost trying to make your spacing optimally bad. You can just kinda poke with dtilt a lot, and it pays off consistently. Either they block and you pass through them to improve your position, or they don't block and the hit puts them in a really bad spot. What an incredible move.

Dash attack is obviously not safe on block, but it has really monstrous priority and scoops people off ledges. It's no superstar of a move, but it really is an above average dash attack so I dunno why people would be down on it.

Drop shield dsmash is a really nice option to have as a really high reward hit for a frequently applicable punish option, especially when people pressure you with your back to the edge so dsmash can kill early. Cloud basically forces people to play respectfully enough to just not do anything that unsafe with that option; it's wonderful to have.

Cloud's nair is so fast for the type of move it is; it felt like Cloud could just hit nair to disrupt pretty much anything and everything. I already think Shulk's nair was a super undervalued move, and Cloud's nair is like the same thing with a super favorable sacrifice of just a little range for a ton more speed.

Almost Cloud's entire moveset just barfs damage and kill power, and while Cloud seems to have relatively limited set-ups, his disjoints are top class and he has a lot of safe options. I feel like some people will struggle to end stocks with him since he doesn't have easy bake kill set-ups like fast characters, but remember how limit pressures people and you can afford to go for safe guesses often enough to end stocks pretty early on average. Worst case scenario his dthrow seems to eventually kill.

I really didn't like his usmash as a move (seems to have a pretty bad speed-power ratio). I don't really understand why he has two meteors when he can just use deep off-stage situations to charge half a bar of limit instead of going for a chase (and if you have limit up, your ledge traps are just plain nasty). Those are really the only criticisms I have for Cloud. He's awesome, and I'm very strongly considering switching mains to him at this point. I'm that impressed.

I think Cloud's extremely poor recoveryand lack of anything to do with throws or reliable kill setups knock him down to mid tier, but hey, it's day 1.

Bayonetta, on the other hand...

....


....

dang.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's just day one with him so who really knows, but Cloud sure feels top tier to me.

The limit moves are basically absurd. Limit Cross Slash is safe on block, Limit Blade Beam does 19% and kills near edges (just trap random landings with it), and Finishing Touch kills absurdly early (60-70% against another Cloud from anywhere on the stage). Just charging limit puts such incredible pressure on your opponent since Cloud becomes an overwhelming threat as soon as that bar fills; sitting on limit forces your opponent to walk on eggshells, and you can afford to just guess with limit moves too since the only real downside of guessing wrong on Limit Cross Slash is losing your meter (default Cross Slash also seems like a generally really good move, but I need to lab it to really understand it fully).

Dtilt is a completely ridiculous move itself. As far as we can tell, it's safe on block unless spaced so badly that you are almost trying to make your spacing optimally bad. You can just kinda poke with dtilt a lot, and it pays off consistently. Either they block and you pass through them to improve your position, or they don't block and the hit puts them in a really bad spot. What an incredible move.

Dash attack is obviously not safe on block, but it has really monstrous priority and scoops people off ledges. It's no superstar of a move, but it really is an above average dash attack so I dunno why people would be down on it.

Drop shield dsmash is a really nice option to have as a really high reward hit for a frequently applicable punish option, especially when people pressure you with your back to the edge so dsmash can kill early. Cloud basically forces people to play respectfully enough to just not do anything that unsafe with that option; it's wonderful to have.

Cloud's nair is so fast for the type of move it is; it felt like Cloud could just hit nair to disrupt pretty much anything and everything. I already think Shulk's nair was a super undervalued move, and Cloud's nair is like the same thing with a super favorable sacrifice of just a little range for a ton more speed.

Almost Cloud's entire moveset just barfs damage and kill power, and while Cloud seems to have relatively limited set-ups, his disjoints are top class and he has a lot of safe options. I feel like some people will struggle to end stocks with him since he doesn't have easy bake kill set-ups like fast characters, but remember how limit pressures people and you can afford to go for safe guesses often enough to end stocks pretty early on average. Worst case scenario his dthrow seems to eventually kill.

I really didn't like his usmash as a move (seems to have a pretty bad speed-power ratio). I don't really understand why he has two meteors when he can just use deep off-stage situations to charge half a bar of limit instead of going for a chase (and if you have limit up, your ledge traps are just plain nasty). Those are really the only criticisms I have for Cloud. He's awesome, and I'm very strongly considering switching mains to him at this point. I'm that impressed.

Classifying him as top tier feels premature, especially when his awful recovery and weakness against shield's is factored but I feel like he'll probably do pretty good in tournaments.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Limit Cross Slash is -16 on block. It isn't safe. N-Air being frame 5 and auto cancel is pretty nutty, that's for sure. His recovery is enough to remove him from top tier, it's garbage and is a real factor.

It also hits more than a character length away from Cloud, and that means that basically anything done OoS will whiff. We didn't do frame testing, but we saw that attempts to punish it when used in realistic scenarios mostly resulted in the would-be punisher getting grabbed.

His recovery isn't that bad (not that good but not that bad), and it's not a big deal. IMO unless a recovery is Little Mac tier, it's one of the character attributes that rarely affects how good a character is in the end. Cloud still mostly makes it back when he needs to, and it's a lot more valuable to have all of his great on-stage tools than to come back somewhat easier but need to use your recovery more often on account of not being as good on-stage.

 

[BSP]

How does cloud handle being utilt/grab combod by mario, does he have quick aerials to get out, how does his fall speed/weight factor in.

I was playing with a buddy a few hours ago. Any time I got a low % grab or Utilt on his cloud with Mario, I could take him to 50% and he couldn't do anything about it.

Not only that, his recovery is almost Little Mac level. You get hit out of your jump? You're dead unless you've got limit.

 

[G-Guy]

Classifying him as top tier feels premature, especially when his awful recovery and weakness against shield's is factored but I feel like he'll probably do pretty good in tournaments.

I agree, calling him top tier now is premature.

His recovery sucks pretty much if he doesn't have a limit ready. I mean. I talk Dr. Mario levels of suckiness and we all know where he is on the list.

Not arguing Cloud will be bottom of the barrel. definitely not, but he has some clearly defined weaknesses

 

[TTTTTsd]

I was playing with a buddy a few hours ago. Any time I got a low % grab or Utilt on his cloud with Mario, I could take him to 50% and he couldn't do anything about it.

Not only that, his recovery is almost Little Mac level. You get hit out of your jump? You're dead unless you've got limit.

This sucks, but unlike other chars with disadvantaged states, there is a MILD silver lining here.

Thank god Limit builds when you take damage too.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

I really didn't like his usmash as a move (seems to have a pretty bad speed-power ratio).

Sure it's not powerful, but the range is welcome. Utilt is rather short range comparatively, and Usmash threatens platforms above Cloud extremely well (you could argue that SH AC Uair could do the same, but more options isnt bad)

 

[C0rvus]

Isn't it true that you can shield Finishing Touch? Pretty booty tbh. No kill setups, bad disadvantaged state, awful recovery. That alone knocks him down from top tier. But there was never a thought in my mind that considered it a possibility that Cloud would be top tier. But hey, his neutral and mobility seems good to great.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Isn't it true that you can shield Finishing Touch? Pretty booty tbh. No kill setups, bad disadvantaged state, awful recovery. That alone knocks him down from top tier. But there was never a thought in my mind that considered it a possibility that Cloud would be top tier. But hey, his neutral and mobility seems good to great.

You can shield it but it covers like 3 of 4 ledge options, and it's not his only LB that kills after all! Gotta look at the whole package. His neutral and mobility are both really good, grab reward is kinda bleh but you net position and of course Limit.

Being able to force an approach by charging Limit (which you can also cancel into shield or any normal on the ground which is AWESOME) is really, really cool. I think that alone makes him not bad.

 

[lbrasz44]

Just caught someone who was off stage with Cloud's limit break neutral B, that option is good to awkwardly force someone to recover low or high and it kills decently if it manages to catch them far off. So there is some sense of edgeguarding to him after all haha. Dair is also decent to use standing at certain ledges too.

Also upsmashing facing away while at the ledge is good at covering some options too. Hits those who roll, and I think there's a small hit box that goes behind him as well(?) so it could get those who simply get up as well.

 

[Morbi]

You can shield it but it covers like 3 of 4 ledge options, and it's not his only LB that kills after all! Gotta look at the whole package. His neutral and mobility are both really good, grab reward is kinda bleh but you net position and of course Limit.

Being able to force an approach by charging Limit (which you can also cancel into shield or any normal on the ground which is AWESOME) is really, really cool. I think that alone makes him not bad.

I am not sure about that, if a character has a decent projectile, they do not need to approach Cloud even if he is charging his limit. Once it is fully charged, you lose any counter-zoning potential unless you want to waste the charge.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I am not sure about that, if a character has a decent projectile, they do not need to approach Cloud even if he is charging his limit. Once it is fully charged, you lose any counter-zoning potential unless you want to waste the charge.

There's obviously limits, but you can cut off your charge and just wait it out. There's only a few characters I know who can do full stage zoning really well like that.

 

[C0rvus]

It just occurred to me that even if Cloud is charging limit from afar, trying to stop him from doing so by hitting him with weak projectiles will only further charge limit. wew lad

 

[RonNewcomb]

Clouds upair is one of the best upairs in the game. Short hop fast fall upair autocancels and it has a huge disjoint. It's by far his best move.

I want to join the "Cloud reminds me of" party, too. Lingering dair & uair with a forward projectile and a jab that shouldn't hit shields reminds me of Link. The lack of landing lag on uair, Melee Link.

Can Cloud poke shields?

#TeamProjectileSwordie

 

[TTTTTsd]

Additionally the options you have out of limit charge, whether it be in the ground or in the air, are absurd. You can cancel it LAGLESSLY at any time, be creative! Charge limit, cancel, DJ into more charge/an aerial, there's mixups here! Even SH Limit cancel into Nair actually comes out and projects a hitbox!

This character is so fun to lab. I feel like Limit having so much options out of charging it is on purpose, it has to be.

 

[Mario766]

His recovery isn't Mac tier, but it's getting there. Outside of Limit Up-B, it covers a very small vertical distance, has very little horizontal distance. The main issue isn't that, that's doable.

It's the fact that the move has two very big problems with it, that is only fixed with the limit break form

1) It doesn't auto snap.

This would be...okay. However the move has to go up fully then go down, and a second B click sends you to your doom unless you're above the stage to begin with.

2) You hover before falling.

This is the biggie. Welcome to the unholy grail of gimping. Do you have a move that will just sit there, or a down air that spikes?

Yes?
Time for that free damage. Counters destroy it as well, as I'm sure Fludd/Cape will too.

 

[C0rvus]

The thing that gets me on top of that stuff is that even Mac has mixups. Side B is important to his arsenal. Cloud has 1 option. Between landing and recovering, the only mixups I can think of are double jump, Blade Beam (stalls a bit), and airdodge. Bleh.

Imagine if he could wavebounce/b reverse Limit Charge. It would be broken lol.

 

[Locke 06]

I am not sure about that, if a character has a decent projectile, they do not need to approach Cloud even if he is charging his limit. Once it is fully charged, you lose any counter-zoning potential unless you want to waste the charge.

I don't have Cloud yet, but limit blade beam being transcendent (as shown in the direct today) makes it a pretty good counter-zoning tool. Definitely something to respect and important in matchups like Mega Man, Greninja, Luigi (although hurtbox projectiles like Lloid, Gyro, Bombs, Lucas PK fire, and DH stuff could make for a wasted limit)

Run back>b-reverse limit blade beam sounds like a pretty anti-zoner tactic. Combine that with what looks to be a good dance trot, instant limit break cancel>dtilt literally whenever you want, a solid walk, and oh... a sword with good AC's. I don't think he'll be terrible vs zoners. Having a burst mobility option like his dtilt available quickly out of a run I wish Megaman had this is really good (think MK).

As good as his dtilt is... I'm still stuck on it not being a poke. I really think it's one of his biggest weaknesses (when/if people start punishing dtilt on shield...) as he really seems to like crossing up his opponents.

Also, the ability to kill at 50 vs projectile zoners who, as a class, generally do not have great kill options, is really strong. Just ask Wario.

I'll probably make a full impression post on him at some point after Saturday when I sit down and fully mess around with him, but relevant MU's from my first impressions of watching people play him for 2 hours... : I can see him giving Ryu a really hard time (dtilt is basically an escape option while having good cross up options to escape the corner) while losing pretty hard to Sheik (never really can charge limit vs needles, but SH AC uair might be his saving grace in neutral) and ZSS (lol swords).

 

[Yonder]

So unnoted so far from the M2 boards, apparently his dash went from about 21st to 11th fastest and his nair combos into a lot more moves. Shadow ball has half the recoil too.

Keep in mind , unconfirmed. Regarding the dash speed one though, a lot of members have felt this effect far.

I can't test these until Thursday but great Scot those are nice buffs if true!

 

[Ffamran]

This is weird, but for those that played Final Fantasy VII, what could you do while taking damage other than counter if you had that Materia? Cloud doesn't have that, so... In most RPGs, you take damage, block, or have a chance to avoid them, but in most cases, you're taking damage. I wonder if that has to play with why Cloud's disadvantage is bad?

 

[LancerStaff]

My immediate feelings for the Pit vs. Cloud matchup is that it'll be tough for Cloud. Pit puts a damper on Cloud's ability to charge limits for starters, since whenever either is sent flying a quick arrow will interrupt it. (Very noticeable, since I'd see one or two less limits if I used Pit over Dark Pit when I didn't get a cheesy Electroshock KO, hehe.) Pit's got a really strong juggle game, and Cloud's Nair doesn't seem to do much to Pit's Uair. Pit seems to have the advantage at midrange since Blade Beam is pretty much reactable. Close up it could really go either way, not too bad for either character though. Biggest problem for Cloud is, well, recovery. You'd really have to be careful about your double jump (which seems especially big to me, surprised nobody's said anything) since it's so integral to his recovery. Clamhazard doesn't seem overly difficult to challenge with Pit's Dair, and since it has to be used so rigidly it's also not hard to block with Guardian Orbitars either.

I know I'm basically saying his recovery is bad, but that's really what the matchup comes down to.