Character Board Specific Matchup Chart Project (Last Update: 12/21)- Not a tier list!

[Fearmy]

since you have a sheik and Zelda, might as well put a Pokemon Trainer, You can't be one of the Pokemon only unlike Shiek and Zelda

 

[zamz]

I did a quick casual glance at the chart, and I saw something odd. If I follow the "You" column down to "Squirtle" and read horizontally, I see two options:
-Squirtle = Charizard
-Squirtle < Ivysaur

If I follow the "Opponent" row down to "Squirtle" and read vertically, I see:
-Captain Falcon > Squirtle
-Fox = Squirtle
-Ivysaur > Squirtle
-Kirby = Squirtle
-Marth > Squirtle
-ZSS > Squirtle

Why is it different? Shouldn't both the rows and the columns be identical?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

since you have a sheik and Zelda, might as well put a Pokemon Trainer, You can't be one of the Pokemon only unlike Shiek and Zelda

I dunno.... while it SEEMS like that makes sense, the thing is, a lot of smashers that use Zelda/Shiek switch between the two to gain strategic advantages, such as having Shiek rack up damage and having Zelda KO...

... despite also being able to switch, I see a LOT less of that, if any, on the PT side of the spectrum. Generally speaking, PTs will know which two of their three pokemon have the best matchups in any given matchup, and will switch pretty much only to keep these two pokemon in play and/or avoid fatigue/move decay.

I've seen virtually NO cross pokemon strategies for pokemon trainer... which leads me to believe he's being drastically underutilized, but there it is.

 

[DKKountry]

Yeah I suppose it's easiest to keep Zelda/Sheik together since no one uses Sheik anyway lol JP

 

[MK26]

I did a quick casual glance at the chart, and I saw something odd. If I follow the "You" column down to "Squirtle" and read horizontally, I see two options:
-Squirtle = Charizard
-Squirtle < Ivysaur

If I follow the "Opponent" row down to "Squirtle" and read vertically, I see:
-Captain Falcon > Squirtle
-Fox = Squirtle
-Ivysaur > Squirtle
-Kirby = Squirtle
-Marth > Squirtle
-ZSS > Squirtle

Why is it different? Shouldn't both the rows and the columns be identical?

Ur right...and its the same with both Charizard and Ivysaur. Their rows and columns arent mirror images either.

 

[Mmac]

One suggestion I think you should do is to do another Box to indicate a 80:20+ Matchup. I feel that it needs to be separated from current "Large Advantage" box, because the advantage is too great to be indicated on it's own. Plus 80:20 is pretty much near impossible, while 70:30, the 30 still has a chance on winning.

I wouldn't do another colour, I would just add a Checkmark/X on the Purple/Red for easy indication.

 

[Morrigan]

Who has 80 on 20? (or even 90:10)

 

[DanGR]

Wolf v Falco is rather onesided. Also Ganon v IC is pretty sad to watch.

 

[cutter]

DDD vs. DK
DDD vs. Mario
DDD vs. Luigi
DDD vs. Samus
DDD vs. Bowser

Those characters cannot fight DDD because of the infinite. It is a hopeless match because DDD has to grab them just once to take off a stock.

Those matchups are easily 9-1 in favor of DDD, maybe even 10-0.

Captain Falcon has a lot of hopeless matchups as well. Marth vs. Ness/Lucas is also hopeless for the Earthbound kids because of the deathgrab.

DanGR, I would think about adding a purple square (for blowout) and maybe something like a red X like Mmac said for "hopeless".

 

[DanGR]

Thanks for the info, but:

"Don't bother telling me that so and so has the advantage over so and so if the character specific matchup threads say otherwise. Go to THOSE threads to discuss them. If there's any disagreement among different character boards regarding a matchup, I'll leave it blank. If they agree, we're getting somewhere."
-the OP

I'll probably add your suggestion on 80-20 matchups b/c some other people have commented on it as well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

why not split the difference with 75:25?

or just keep it the way it is... w/e

 

[Blackbelt]

DDD vs. DK
DDD vs. Mario
DDD vs. Luigi
DDD vs. Samus
DDD vs. Bowser

Those characters cannot fight DDD because of the infinite. It is a hopeless match because DDD has to grab them just once to take off a stock.

Those matchups are easily 9-1 in favor of DDD, maybe even 10-0.

Captain Falcon has a lot of hopeless matchups as well. Marth vs. Ness/Lucas is also hopeless for the Earthbound kids because of the deathgrab.

DanGR, I would think about adding a purple square (for blowout) and maybe something like a red X like Mmac said for "hopeless".

Just like to point out that Lucas vs Marth isn't hopeles, as the grab release isn't an infinite on Lucas. (Lucas board decided on 30:70


But yeah, everything else is accurate, and another color or symbol would be appropriate.

 

[Greenstreet]

the organisation of sonics matchup thread shines thru in this chart.

 

[cutter]

Just like to point out that Lucas vs Marth isn't hopeles, as the grab release isn't an infinite on Lucas. (Lucas board decided on 30:70


But yeah, everything else is accurate, and another color or symbol would be appropriate.

How can Lucas escape the infinite? As long as Marth is grab attacking as Lucas breaks out, Lucas is forced to escape in a sliding release instead of the jump release. By the time he can do anything, Marth has already grabbed him again. Maybe I missed something but I've tested it on level 9 cpus and it's an infinite. If a level 9 CPU cannot escape it with frame-perfect reaction, a human can't either.

 

[Mmac]

Computers don't attempt to escape infinites most of the time. I find CPU's really unreliable anyways

Example: Yoshi can easily Chaingrab a Computer Wolf, Falco, and Dedede. However humans can easily escape this by either simply jumping or spotdodging. .

Thats why I test all the techniques I find with Yoshi with Friends, to make sure it works 100%

Also Dan, you need to change ZSS to our advantage. We also agree that Ice Climbers is neutral to slightly our advantage

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dedede vs dk isn't impossible, just really really hard. i can avoid the infinite a lot better after some practice

not to mention you pretty much know what they're going to do since all the dedede does is go for the infinite

 

[Fogo]

dedede vs dk isn't impossible, just really really hard. i can avoid the infinite a lot better after some practice

not to mention you pretty much know what they're going to do since all the dedede does is go for the infinite

Hey now, i didn't infinite you at all!

 

[Timbers]

I don't think we need another color for this. It's already considered that if character A has a 70:30 matchup against character B, that character A is considered a counter to character B.

If someone's too stubborn to consider playing a different character against a 30:70 scenario, they probably wouldn't consider it in 20:80 or 10:90 either.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I don't think 30:70 is really that much of a counter match. Probably 75:25.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What? 70:30 is a clear advantage. There aen't many match-ups that are much higher than that. 70:30 is pretty one sided, imo

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

it's GOTTA be either 70:30 or 75:25

anything lower ain't a counter and anything higher is SO TOTALLY OBVIOUSLY a counter.... so as long as it's one of these, I'm satisfied.

 

[Sharkz]

So your saying Pit has no advantage or disadvantage to any character? I can't believe that one. (Or either you just forgot to put the info over onto the new hcart...)

 

[Timbers]

So your saying Pit has no advantage or disadvantage to any character? I can't believe that one. (Or either you just forgot to put the info over onto the new hcart...)

I think you have no idea what this chart is about.

 

[Mmac]

it's GOTTA be either 70:30 or 75:25

anything lower ain't a counter and anything higher is SO TOTALLY OBVIOUSLY a counter.... so as long as it's one of these, I'm satisfied.

Why not have both?

Why not have a 70:30-75:25 Box, and a 80:20+ Box?

 

[DanGR]

So your saying Pit has no advantage or disadvantage to any character? I can't believe that one. (Or either you just forgot to put the info over onto the new hcart...)

I'm going to cry.

Why not have both?

Why not have a 70:30-75:25 Box, and a 80:20+ Box?

I'm leaning towards this idea. It makes sense. It's just that it might be hard to figure out how bad a character has it against another. 65/35 to 70/30 is rather easy to distinguish imo, but from 75/25 to 80/20? How do you determine that?

 

[Timbers]

Most character boards use 7/10 or 30:70 or "huge disadvantage" or "very difficult" to describe their bad matches.

Rarely are you going to find a character matchup thread using increments of fives or a "very difficult" turning into a "very very difficult."

You're going to over-complicate things trying to turn a large disadvantage into two different kinds of large disadvantages. I mean. If you've got characters with these "huge huge disadvantages" you're going to have the same characters with "huge huge advantages."

And that's just going to cause more confusion and ****.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda/Shiek has an over 80 advantage on captain falcon... I know that. but some of her other "hard" counters like DDD, Fox and Ganondorf.... I'm not so sure... that's a grey area.

 

[Steeler]

all of these numbers seem pretty arbitrary to me >__> like seriously, how can you say 75:25 is that much different from 70:30? how can you even decide on those 5 little points? a general "slight or large (dis)advantage" seems better to me...because numbers are just way too specific/arbitrary/insert better word here. it's not as if there's a formula for determining how many "points" a character gets.

a quote from overswarm's rob guide

Most people have difficulty levels in their guides and I approve of that; I do not approve of 6/10 compared to 7/10 for difficulty ranking. That's stupid. The metagame will constantly evolve, but whether a match is easy, average, or hard will not unless some serious changes are made. The balance of power in a matchup might change slightly... but not much without the discovery of a chaingrab, new AT, or other such thing. So... you can read "this match is average" and know that while it may be less in ROB's favor than other 'average" matches, they all fit the same pool.

 

[Mmac]

Well, Yoshi used to have a pretty big advantage on Squirtle with CG's and Release Usmash. Now he has a Grab Release on the ledge to an unavoidable Fair Spike which can kill at minimum at 10%. I think thats pretty much destroying now.

Plus theres quite a bit of Impossible Matchup's out there

 

[Blackbelt]

How can Lucas escape the infinite? As long as Marth is grab attacking as Lucas breaks out, Lucas is forced to escape in a sliding release instead of the jump release. By the time he can do anything, Marth has already grabbed him again. Maybe I missed something but I've tested it on level 9 cpus and it's an infinite. If a level 9 CPU cannot escape it with frame-perfect reaction, a human can't either.

This wall of text brought to you by the Marth Board. The Bolded part is the important part.

Lucas - I don't care what Levitas says, Lucas can't handle Marth. LOL. All he really has on you is a good edgeguarding game and PK fire. You can perfect shield PK fire or jab it. But you have to space well with the jab, otherwise the fire will still hit your hand. Might be better off using a perfect shield. Once you get in, it's your game. Lucas has s solid moveset, but simply put you outrange him, so he can't do much without putting himself at risk trying to get past your sword. He has some nice combos with his nair that lead into other moves though. But good spacing means you shouldn't be getting hit by that stuff. Also Lucas telegraphs his d-smash and his u-smash even more. If you see Lucas go for these moves just roll back and then punish him in his cool down time. He has a grapple grab, but the range isn't that long really and he is vulnerable if it doesn't grab so good Lucas' won't rely on it too much. When Lucas is edgeguarding you he will try to stage spike with PK thunder. You can swat the thunder, counter it, or just take the hit and tech the stage and then recover. When you are edge guarding Lucas you want to swat the thunder so Lucas will fall to his death. Or just swat him to get in some easy damage. If Lucas abuses wavebouncing, like any good Lucas should, just be patient. Take your time approaching. Everytime he uses it he flies back, so if if he wants to abuse it he will have to run back to where he flew back form otherwise he will just end up at the edge, which would be bad positioning for him. Knowing that, you can take your time and approach cautiously. When you do get close just set up your normal zoning game. Lucas will be hard pressed to get around your blade. Also you have a grab set-up on Lucas. Just grab and pummel him non-stop. When he breaks out you can re-grab him and he can't stop you. From 0% to 20% there is nothing he can do. After that he can DI farther back, but if you are fast you should be able to get a re-grab or a dancing blade. Maybe an U-smash for the kill. If he didn't DI too far back you can get an easy D-smash tipper for a kill at higher percents. If you don't do the grab set-up correctly he can mash jump and other buttons and he can jump out, but if you mash the attack button then this won't happen consistently. It's not really too much of a huge threat to Lucas except that it set-ups up for an easy follow-up attack or a kill at higher percents. Anyway, this just solidifies the fact that Lucas can't go head to head with Marth really.



Yeah, it's bad, but not "OMG Lucas automatic loss" bad.

 

[Vyse]

http://smashboards.com./showthread.php?t=181638

There are still things to iron out, but here is the second version of the Diddy Boards Matchup Chart.

 

[TKD]

all of these numbers seem pretty arbitrary to me >__> like seriously, how can you say 75:25 is that much different from 70:30? how can you even decide on those 5 little points? a general "slight or large (dis)advantage" seems better to me...because numbers are just way too specific/arbitrary/insert better word here. it's not as if there's a formula for determining how many "points" a character gets.

a quote from overswarm's rob guide

Matchups should only be measured in 10's. That's the way it used to be in Melee, and it's the way it should be in Brawl. The added 5's are just to show it's not fully decided.

Example: 45/55 means the matchup is 40/60 at worst and 50/50 at best.

 

[Dastrn]

I think I already like this project better than the other one, if only for the colors replacing the checkmarks.

Also, I don't think there is a single 75:25 matchup in Brawl. It's way more balanced than that.

And yes, that includes DDD vs DK, and Marth vs brats.

 

[Bouse]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189587

Newly made so far the ratios we have are...

Diddy Kong
40:60 -->Diddy Kong
King Dedede
60:40 -->Link
Kirby
30:70 -->Kirby

 

[DanGR]

This wall of text brought to you by the Marth Board.

You do know I need both boards to agree right? so the Marth boards think it's a big advantage, (so do I), but the Lucas boards don't agree? hmm...

I think I already like this project better than the other one, if only for the colors replacing the checkmarks.

Also, I don't think there is a single 75:25 matchup in Brawl. It's way more balanced than that.

And yes, that includes DDD vs DK, and Marth vs brats.

ehhh.... *cringes*

http://smashboards.com./showthread.php?t=181638

There are still things to iron out, but here is the second version of the Diddy Boards Matchup Chart.

It looks a bit inaccurate for now, but I trust that it gets updated regularly. I won't add anything from it for now, but I put the link in the OP.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You do know I need both boards to agree right? so the Marth boards think it's a big advantage, (so do I), but the Lucas boards don't agree? hmm...

That's the problem of the chart. It's hard to find a match-up thread where people are 0% biased towards their main characters.

 

[cutter]

*wall of text on Marth/Lucas*

Yeah, it's bad, but not "OMG Lucas automatic loss" bad.

Alright then, I stand corrected. It's still a terrible matchup for Lucas though because Marth gets a free smash/DB/Fair after a grab release. AFAIK though it's an infinite on Ness.

@ DastrnMarco: There were hopeless matchups in Melee (ie Bowser/Sheik and Mewtwo/Marth) and hopeless matchups definately exist in Brawl. 9:1 and 10:0 matchups exist in Brawl. Just look at poor Captain Falcon. And contrary to what you said, I believe D3's infinites and Marth's deathgrab on Ness make the matchups hopeless for the inferior side.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf vs. Falco = dead Wolf...so yeah, there are hopeless match-ups

 

[Mr.Victory07]

lol who thought this was a tier list?

 

[Blackbelt]

You do know I need both boards to agree right? so the Marth boards think it's a big advantage, (so do I), but the Lucas boards don't agree? hmm...

Well of course Marth has a big advantage. I never stated otherwise.

And it even gives Marth the big advantage in the Lucas Weekly Matchup discussion.