Character Board Specific Matchup Chart Project (Last Update: 12/21)- Not a tier list!

[DanGR]

Uhhh...Ganondorf v Kirby is agreed by both boards as 60-40 Kirby. Where do you see that they disagree with each other.

And about the colours, why dont we just compromise and make neutral green-yellow, rather than one or the other?

It's not that I see they disagree. It's that there's too many matchups to see everything. I'll look into it.

Again, colors are fine. Unless we used like, gray, for the neutral matchups, then I can't think of a better color than yellow for "neutral."

Plus being able to relate the colors to wifi's latency colors I think is effective.

I'm getting kinda tired of the color arguments. Yellow is fine. Green is universally regarded as "good". Red is regarded as bad, and Yellow is in between. It's hard on some people's eyes, but you're not going to be staring at the chart for 20 minutes straight. Only a few seconds-to look at a character's matchups or something. I can try to have a darker yellow color if that makes you happy. I'm sorry to everyone that it hurts to look at, but I've made my decision. If you're color blind and you can't differentiate between two colors, I'll work with you to change the values of the colors, but not the colors themselves. I had some checks and o's and dots for the colorblind, but people complained that it looked "childish". I had my reasoning behind it.

As for the chart disagreement, I'm still not sure. I could update two charts and have you guys choose whichever one you like, and you can use that one, and I'd be fine with it. Just remember that this will get finished eventually. The background won't be a big problem b/c we'll have colors filling it up. There won't be too much glare, if any.

 

[Morrigan]

As for the chart disagreement, I'm still not sure. I could update two charts and have you guys choose whichever one you like, and you can use that one, and I'd be fine with it. Just remember that this will get finished eventually. The background won't be a big problem b/c we'll have colors filling it up. There won't be too much glare, if any.

I say we get straight to what's more important, the matchups. The design can be changed ANYTIME you want to or when you feel it's necessary, so no biggie

 

[DanGR]

I say we get straight to what's more important, the matchups. The design can be changed ANYTIME you want to or when you feel it's necessary, so no biggie

agreed. no more discussion on this for now please. We can come back to this later.

Originally Posted by MK26

The five squares in the top and bottom left corners of the grid should go:

big adv-----even-----big dis
---------adv-------dis

aka (according to present colour scheme, which can be changed)

blue-----yellow-------red
----green-----orange

This way, the big advantage is closest to you and the big disadvantage is closest to the opponent

Sure thing. I'll add it to my next update.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh okay then let's change everything because of one person.

It was me and a few other people.


You'll find that in general, the vast majority don't like being naysayers, it's a groupthink thing, cause people consider things more accepted then they are and don't want to be the odd man out. One person saying something often represents a large contingent's feeling. Think about how teachers say, "ask the question if you have it, half the class probably has it, but doesn't wanna say it". Same idea.


Plus, consider that only a tiny portion of smashboards is responding to this thread regularly. Think about it, if only 2 people out of the people who responded since that person came out have an issue, taken as a proportion, that means that a large number of smashboarders are gonna have an issue.

agreed. no more discussion on this for now please. We can come back to this later.

alright.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, the dk group is set up, unfortunately only members can see it (think the dk back room), so i will make a thread of everything we have on the dk boards once we're done with a character. we're almost done with snake, and will have a summary, thread, and everything you could want as far as proof goes.

the collective thought is that dk does well (slight advantage) against snake, but that if you screw up you're in a lot of trouble, because snake is still very good. basically, at high levels, the dk will win, at lower levels, pray you don't screw up and get caught

and dan, i sent you an invite on aib so that you can see the stuff if you wish to


also, i might not update just now, but from the sound of it, we agree with the neutral matchup with G&W. again, not 100% cause i can't speak for everyone, but i'll have a final one soon, and its probably gonna agree with dk vs G&W as neutral

 

[Timbers]

I know you don't wanna talk charts, and this might sound really nitpicky, but when you darkened the white areas, parts of the chart weren't colored. Like, if you look at the names, you'll see white splotches around the lettering and inside the o's and stuff.

Just pointing it out.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I know you don't wanna talk charts, and this might sound really nitpicky, but when you darkened the white areas, parts of the chart weren't colored. Like, if you look at the names, you'll see white splotches around the lettering and inside the o's and stuff.

Just pointing it out.

he probably just did a palatte swap.... but, since it wasn't saved as a PNG, the colours bled in areas like that, so it didn't switch over.

 

[neoREgen]

oh god... without numbers that is IMPOSSIBLE to read. >.<

That's Phanna's chart?! Wow. And we were arguing about overlays.

I'm getting kinda tired of the color arguments.

I say we get straight to what's more important, the matchups. The design can be changed ANYTIME you want to or when you feel it's necessary, so no biggie

Absolutely agreed. I didn't intend on causing some massive block on actual progress to discuss color theory and design. When I made the chart, I thought that it would end the color debates and help take updating the design of the chart off DanGR's hands, not cause him more problems.

But c'est la vie...

Well, I'm going to drop off the face of the forums for a couple months again now (so don't expect me to reply to anything you say at this point). Cheers, peace, and other such phrases.

Edit: DanGR, if you do decide you want the psd file, I'm sure PMing me will still send a message to my inbox.

 

[Morrigan]

DanGR can you include a "Recent updates" thingy in your second post?

 

[zamz]

Dan, how exactly does Marth have an advantage against Falco? The Falco boards suggest Falco has the advantage. Surely, there's a clash of interest somewhere around here if both boards suggest their own character has the advantage...

And all the previous charts before this one had Falco > Marth. What was the big change that...switched it?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The other match-up chart has 50:50 (Falco vs. Marth)

 

[mood4food77]

someone back me up on this

i think lucario has the advantage over wario, slight advantage, like 60-40

lucario is almost impossible to sheild grab, something wario relies on a lot, and lucario's sheild pressure game outclasses wario's by a lot, i'm not 100% sure of htis match-up since i've only fought 2 good lucarios and lost both times, it could be because i'm not used to lucario but i don't think so, wario just couldnt' keep up with lucario's comboes and what not

 

[adumbrodeus]

Dan, how exactly does Marth have an advantage against Falco? The Falco boards suggest Falco has the advantage. Surely, there's a clash of interest somewhere around here if both boards suggest their own character has the advantage...

And all the previous charts before this one had Falco > Marth. What was the big change that...switched it?

A lot of looking into the chain-grabbing games of both chars, kill percents, for various moves, aerial movements, melee range, etc.

Basically, falco has camping and a slightly better early chaingrab game. Once it gets to melee range, Marth has a massive advantage, and falco just doesn't have the tools to play keep away.

Explained pretty well by Emblem Lord over a couple of pages here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4875144#post4875144

And in our match-up discussion: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183545


Marth does win this one, it's not a large advantage, but one none the less.

 

[rm88]

Of course I'm most likely wrong, but I disagree with the following match-ups (coincidentally, all of them are Marth related):

- Dedede VS Marth: I have a really hard time dealing with Marth, I'd say it's my most difficult match-up with Dedede. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? O.o
- Kirby VS Marth: I don't find him that difficult with Kirby, it's easier for me to beat Marth with Kirby than with Dedede.
- Pikachu VS Marth: I have 2-stocked Marths with Pikachu, and he isn't even one of my best characters O.o I guess those Marths sucked, but it was not difficult at all.

 

[zamz]

A lot of looking into the chain-grabbing games of both chars, kill percents, for various moves, aerial movements, melee range, etc.

Basically, falco has camping and a slightly better early chaingrab game. Once it gets to melee range, Marth has a massive advantage, and falco just doesn't have the tools to play keep away.

Explained pretty well by Emblem Lord over a couple of pages here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4875144#post4875144

And in our match-up discussion: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183545


Marth does win this one, it's not a large advantage, but one none the less.

I realize you guys would say this. I realize your boards suggest you have the advantage. But Falco's boards aren't convinced. And as far as I've seen, we still have the matchup at neutral or our advantage.

If this chart only accepts "agreement from both boards"...then...the matchup should either be set to neutral or not be filled in until both boards can reach an understanding. The Marth boards aren't the offical rule for any single match-up, even if you do have Emblem Lord. It just leads to biasm. The ideal would be to reach an agreement from both characters, to create a very realistic conclusion.

That's why I'm asking what the big change was. Where did Dan get Falco's support for this disadvanteous match-up?

 

[DanGR]

Dan, how exactly does Marth have an advantage against Falco? The Falco boards suggest Falco has the advantage. Surely, there's a clash of interest somewhere around here if both boards suggest their own character has the advantage...

And all the previous charts before this one had Falco > Marth. What was the big change that...switched it?

Here are the matchup threads I referenced for Falco v Marth:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172023
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

Of course I'm most likely wrong, but I disagree with the following match-ups (coincidentally, all of them are Marth related):

- Dedede VS Marth: I have a really hard time dealing with Marth, I'd say it's my most difficult match-up with Dedede. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? O.o
- Kirby VS Marth: I don't find him that difficult with Kirby, it's easier for me to beat Marth with Kirby than with Dedede.
- Pikachu VS Marth: I have 2-stocked Marths with Pikachu, and he isn't even one of my best characters O.o I guess those Marths sucked, but it was not difficult at all.

I only take character boards' specific matchup threads into account. Look at the ones I linked in the OP if you've got issues with a matchup. For all three of these matchups, both boards agreed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I realize you guys would say this. I realize your boards suggest you have the advantage. But Falco's boards aren't convinced. And as far as I've seen, we still have the matchup at neutral or our advantage.

If this chart only accepts "agreement from both boards"...then...the matchup should either be set to neutral or not be filled in until both boards can reach an understanding. The Marth boards aren't the offical rule for any single match-up, even if you do have Emblem Lord. It just leads to biasm. The ideal would be to reach an agreement from both characters, to create a very realistic conclusion.

That's why I'm asking what the big change was. Where did Dan get Falco's support for this disadvanteous match-up?

Which was why I said "remove the advantage so we can fight it out".

Read my posts on this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5117239#post5117239

Here are the matchup threads I referenced for Falco v Marth:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172023
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

Is an "even or slight advantage" enough to call an overall advantage? IMO, the Marth and Falco boards should still discuss it before calling it.

 

[zamz]

Here are the matchup threads I referenced for Falco v Marth:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172023
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

Yes...but...using the very same links you just linked me.

Falco Link:

Marth: 5:5 or 6:4

Marth Link:

Falco 60:40 Marth

This is a complete clash of interest. Both boards say their main is 6:4 their advantage.

I'm not sure why you gave Marth the advantage here =) . It should be neutral, or it should be a dispute...

 

[DanGR]

I guess I'll leave it undecided. I'll take it off the chart.

Edit: sorry. I read it wrong. Idk what I was thinking. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Mmac]

Someone really needs to tell Bowser to make a Matchup Thread.... I think he's the only one without a Matchup Thread now.....

Also, Ice Climbers have a new one: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188700

I don't know why they made Yoshi as a odd numbered matchup.....

 

[Codi]

u might want to add tht rob is horrible against DDD...

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Sonic has nothing at all? lol

 

[DanGR]

Someone really needs to tell Bowser to make a Matchup Thread.... I think he's the only one without a Matchup Thread now.....

Also, Ice Climbers have a new one: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188700

I don't know why they made Yoshi as a odd numbered matchup.....

I've looked through that thread before. Many of the numbers are rather... arbitrary. I'll wait some time until I add it to my links. I'll keep an eye on it though.

u might want to add tht rob is horrible against DDD...

thread?

Sonic has nothing at all? lol

//

 

[itsthebigfoot]

@ new people posting, this is from the first page

The posts in this thread will only be links to updated matchup threads and the characters that have been updated. Don't bother telling me that so and so has the advantage over so and so if the character specific matchup threads say otherwise.

EDIT: dan, the dk list without explanations http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=28904,

the list that will be showing explanations as well as continued matchup discussion, currently on snake http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=27521

 

[zamz]

I know I'm not DanGR and he can accept any character boards he wants. Buuut...I think we should try to keep discussions on SmashBoards only. I assume most people here don't have an account on All is Brawl, so if they disagree with a DK match-up, they aren't able to respond.

The quick fix: itsthebigfoot, would you be able to post your "DK list without explanations" on the DK boards on Smashboards so other DK mains can offer their opinions?

 

[Mmac]

A few things, Wario has moved the matchup to 7:3 our advantage, and we are about to do the same.

While not updated yet (Unless you count Bigfoot's Matchups), I'm positive that Falco and DK will agree with 3:7 Falco and 4:6 DK against Yoshi

 

[Shy Guy 86]

@ new people posting, this is from the first page



EDIT: dan, the dk list without explanations http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=28904,

the list that will be showing explanations as well as continued matchup discussion, currently on snake http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=27521

I disagree with this, Falco neutral? WTF, Lasers, CG's and other things can wreck DK.

 

[Blackbelt]

I disagree with this, Falco neutral? WTF, Lasers, CG's and other things can wreck DK.

1. Go to the actual matchup thread if you disagree.

2. DK is strong, heavy, and has a helluva kill range.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I guess I'll leave it undecided. I'll take it off the chart.

Edit: sorry. I read it wrong. Idk what I was thinking. Thanks for pointing it out.

Speaking of this issue, I'm trying to get the Marth boards to do weekly invites for match-up disagreements that we have with other boards so we can discuss them, I expect Falco will be first, so this might get resolved sooner then you think.

 

[Timbers]

someone back me up on this

i think lucario has the advantage over wario, slight advantage, like 60-40

lucario is almost impossible to sheild grab, something wario relies on a lot, and lucario's sheild pressure game outclasses wario's by a lot, i'm not 100% sure of htis match-up since i've only fought 2 good lucarios and lost both times, it could be because i'm not used to lucario but i don't think so, wario just couldnt' keep up with lucario's comboes and what not

no way lol.

First off, definitely the wrong place to be asking this.

Second, Lucario's floaty and his aerial DI isn't anywhere near as good as Wario's. Basically meaning that Wario can juggle and pressure Lucario well, or better than most characters. Despite his dair, Wario's uair has an incredibly weird hitbox. It's able to clip Lucario and the dair will do, at most, the initial hit (or no knockback) Wario avoids Lucario's killmoves very well, in contrast to Wario being able to reap havoc on Luc's recovery, and wafts and uairs kill Lucario at stupid low percents, taking away his auraboost.

Luc has no shieldpressure game lol, and it's very difficult for him to get Wario off. His OoS options are fairly limited, especially against Wario's insane aerial DI.

It's neutral.

Lucario Matchup update
And to save this post from being completely off topic, Lucario boards have updated DanGR. We've concluded that:

Lucario<Game and Watch (40:60) The link has already been provided to you and is in your matchup archive.

 

[Snakeee]

Nice thread. You're off a bit on the ZSS match ups though (well you wouldn't have been, but after I changed a couple of them you are lol). Here's my thread for reference even though I've seen you post there already.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176928

 

[Mmac]

Also, us ZSS'ers and Yoshi's agreed on a 6:4 Yoshi Advantage now

 

[DRaGZ]

Hmm...I noticed the almost complete lack of R.O.B. representation:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415

 

[DanGR]

Hmm...I noticed the almost complete lack of R.O.B. representation:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415

Now...which thread do I use? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183492

Mmac-I trust that it's going to be changed soon in the yoshi matchup thread pretty soon?

 

[Mmac]

Mmac-I trust that it's going to be changed soon in the yoshi matchup thread pretty soon?

Shiri agrees, although he's been saying 6:4 for the past couple of months

 

[Timbers]

Now...which thread do I use? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183492

It might be too much to ask you to use both, but it's iffy. OS had been updating the matchups much quicker than DragZ' matchup thread, but he hasn't updated it for several days. I think he was busy with Rofa's this week but I may be wrong.

I'd personally hold Overswarm's thread over the other one. The "matchup thread" has ridiculously inaccurate numbers.

 

[DRaGZ]

Which numbers are innacurate? The match-up difficulty numbers?

Also, OS's thread is based entirely on his own experiences with R.O.B. The match-up thread is an attempt to compile what everyone thinks.

Which opinion you think holds more weight is up to you.

 

[Timbers]

Which numbers are innacurate? The match-up difficulty numbers?

Also, OS's thread is based entirely on his own experiences with R.O.B. The match-up thread is an attempt to compile what everyone thinks.

Which opinion you think holds more weight is up to you.

I'd personally hold Overswarm's thread over the other one. The "matchup thread" has ridiculously inaccurate numbers.

>_>

I think it'd be ideal if DanGR used both threads, as they both contribute, but if we ever were forced to choose...I'd be all over OS' thread. nohomo.

Also like the entire Mario analysis was listening to how much Boss ***** Chozen >___> jus' sayin.

And my opinion is that I give OS much more credit than I do Chozen.


Also the Peach discussion was a joke.

 

[Pieisthebest]

\Bowser- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4

lmao, I cant believe no one got this

 

[itsthebigfoot]

unfortunately, this thread is gonna need to find a way to stay bumped, cause i don't think smashboards is gonna sticky it