Changes you'd like to see in Mewtwo

[Youngster Joey]

actually man li gi melee mewtwo doesnt have a float, slightly longer tail, buffed shadow ball, more range with fair, good confusion, act out of teleport, useful shield, useful jab and more weight. it doesnt seem like you know what melee mewtwo is since you went through the trouble to completely change my post around to your liking

EDIT: but after being a low tier main my whole life i miss my bad mus. so i would not mind a melee mewtwo again. it would, however, be a bad idea to revert back to melee mewtwo

 

[Man Li Gi]

actually man li gi melee mewtwo doesnt have a float, slightly longer tail, buffed shadow ball, more range with fair, good confusion, act out of teleport, useful shield, useful jab and more weight.

You seem not to understand this post: "I want a Melee . Now that is good we can't handle it." Your post sounds like you some things that help taken away because of X reasons and I took your post to the extreme exaggeration of not. It was all for jokes and giggles yet for some reason it was lost in translation.

All those traits listed are good buffs to that people are quick to blame OP prowess (which is nonsensical). takes just as much time (if not more) as it does to master in Melee and PM. I don't get why people want the traits that are making him good or useable in tournies weaker. I mean is just the test if you're unfamiliar with PM (just like was in Melee). If you respect range and attacks in general, you will find holes in the gameplay. Really, I believe that buffs to the other characters would be better suited than giving every rising superstar character that's not nerfs. Look what they did with and . Anyway, not as common in the higher placings in tourneys, so why the calling of nerfs? There's like maybe 3 (Emu and M2K/Frozen) that go far with . SO nerfs for a character that goes under represented? That is funny.

Yeah it's not like there's any middle ground between "bottom 4 in the game" and "effectively in a tier of his own above Fox"

IKR? Anyway, suffers against characters like ,,, and even thanks to 's weight and large frame and lack of a true OoS (8 frames of start up on Teleport as well as being predictable and able to hear the WOOP). have pretty easy pickings with those guys, but where shines (hehe) is the ability to cover the options can't handle. So, no is in the same tier as, not below or above it.

 

[Youngster Joey]

you seem to be bringing this way too far. the reason i decided to post here is because i feel like these nerfs needed to get out there before they do worse things to him. you dont seem to be reading my posts because i never said take anything away. just tone it down to make it more manageable. i doubt they made the perfect mewtwo in just one release of him

these nerfs are not gonna bring mewtwo down to bottom tier. hes still gonna have his float, longer tail, smash buffs, fair buff, shadow ball buff, act out of teleport and a good confusion.

and I took your post to the extreme exaggeration of not. It was all for jokes and giggles yet for some reason it was lost in translation.

and the reason i decided to counter your post is because it seemed like you disregarded everything i said, saw the word nerf and instantly thought melee mewtwo. sorry if i didnt get your joke. but im honestly trying to protect mewtwo with a possible chance that the pmbr might see it. i doubt that mewtwo is staying the same after one release with a ton of complaints. as a hardcore mewtwo main, i dont think that nerfs are a bad idea but im certainly not asking for melee mewtwo. just tone down a couple things that i find are over doing it

 

[Subtle One]

Yeah it's not like there's any middle ground between "bottom 4 in the game" and "effectively in a tier of his own above Fox"

He's in a tier of his own now? How'd you figure? Cause people recently started exploring his new abilities in competitive play and their opponents don't know what to do about it yet? Yea, that's the right way decide that. Good job figuring it out before everyone else man.

Beat a spacie, get nerfs. DAT BALANCE

 

[Frost | Odds]

Anyway, suffers against characters like ,,, and even

LOL

You're completely clueless. Of those, M2 only loses to Link. M2: Roy is 60:40, and the rest are hilarious curbstomps in m2's favor.

Learn to play.

He's in a tier of his own now? How'd you figure?

Been playing against him since release, long ago figured out most of the stuff people are only just starting to learn.

He would be merely top tier, except for the fact that he hard-counters the rest of the top tiers. Only about 40% of the cast can compete with him, and of those only Link and *maybe* Mario have positive matchups.

Sorry, dude- I like playing as and against mewtwo, but it's pretty obvious that you just lack perspective here.

I think the spacies, MK, Ivy, and Mario need some nerfs too, if that helps. It's not like M2 is the only broken character out there - he's just the worst offender.

 

[victinivcreate1]

LOL

You're completely clueless. Of those, M2 only loses to Link. M2: Roy is 60:40, and the rest are hilarious curbstomps in m2's favor.

Sheik gets wrecked by mewtwo, same with Peach and DK. Toon Link has a legitimate chance vs Mewtwo, like a 60:40 or 55:45. Roy is 55:45 tbh (Roy has tools. VERY good tools for beating TP and can also beat Mewtwo in the spacing game with ftilts and fairs). Link and Mewtwo are even in my book, but I can see it being advantageous for Link.

Mewtwo´s worst MUs are (Pikachu johns maybe)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Sheik gets wrecked by mewtwo, same with Peach and DK. Toon Link has a legitimate chance vs Mewtwo, like a 60:40 or 55:45. Roy is 55:45 tbh (Roy has tools. VERY good tools for beating TP and can also beat Mewtwo in the spacing game with ftilts and fairs). Link and Mewtwo are even in my book, but I can see it being advantageous for Link.

Tink kind of has tools, yeah - but it's still not good for him. Same for Roy - he has the tools to win kind of the same way Jiggs has the tools to beat Fox in Melee. It can be done -- consistently, even, if the Roy player outclasses the Mewtwo, but I don't think it's quite fair. I could be wrong about that one though.

Marth probably does better than Roy tbh due to the spacing, and his recovery doesn't blow as much.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo´s worst MUs are (Pikachu johns maybe)

You're aware that M2 0-death's falco *really* easily, yeah? Otherwise looks fair enough, though Pika kinda sucks and MK loses to an M2 who knows how to CC.

EDIT: Sorry for double post, meant to edit this into previous.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Tink kind of has tools, yeah - but it's still not good for him. Same for Roy - he has the tools to win kind of the same way Jiggs has the tools to beat Fox in Melee. It can be done -- consistently, even, if the Roy player outclasses the Mewtwo, but I don't think it's quite fair. I could be wrong about that one though.

Marth probably does better than Roy tbh due to the spacing, and his recovery doesn't blow as much.

Roy can KO earlier if I´m not mistaken. Marth´s spike combos are not too good vs Mewtwo because his absurd recovery lol. Also, Mewtwo can outspace Marth. Roy´s fsmash is just raw power. And Mewtwos must be wary when trying to KO Roy because his close range KO moves lose to Roy´s smash attacks or down tilt combos. Roy may have a significantly harder time offstage, but Roy´s onstage is a bit more effective.

tldr Mewtwo can cut through Marth and get in hard. But he can´t vs Roy, very risky,

MK has a grab game, so once MK starts respecting the CC, then it gets HARD.

Pika is QUICK and small. He´s a bit gimmicky, but highly effective. I mean Anther took a game of Mew2King´s Mewtwo as Pika.

Falco gets 0'deathed yes. But lasers in neutral and pillar combos are ridiculous. Falco can bop Mewtwo just as hard as Mewtwo can bop Falco. Also Falco waveshine pressure lolz.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Makes sense. Roy still dies way too easily to call it remotely in his favor though

and 4x shadow claw combo works

 

[Man Li Gi]

LOL

You're completely clueless.

"effectively in a tier of his own above Fox"

LOL

Learn to play.

"effectively in a tier of his own above Fox"

Your irony is showing. Anyway, still has the Melee problems against who can rack up some serious damage because of the large frame and floaty properties of. Sure, can reflect, but that doesn't suddenly change the MU. still has Dair-Nair or Dair-Uair or Dair-Bair. still CAN beat , but its more like 55:45 as now has some tools to compete with the gimp master as both can be cheesed off the edge. is a rare one as the best way is to win on a small stage as both characters have little space and thrives on space. Watch this for any evidence.

Mewtwo´s worst MUs are

I agree with these.

you seem to be bringing this way too far. the reason i decided to post here is because i feel like these nerfs needed to get out there before they do worse things to him. you dont seem to be reading my posts because i never said take anything away. just tone it down to make it more manageable. i doubt they made the perfect mewtwo in just one release of him

these nerfs are not gonna bring mewtwo down to bottom tier. hes still gonna have his float, longer tail, smash buffs, fair buff, shadow ball buff, act out of teleport and a good confusion.

and the reason i decided to counter your post is because it seemed like you disregarded everything i said, saw the word nerf and instantly thought melee mewtwo. sorry if i didnt get your joke. but im honestly trying to protect mewtwo with a possible chance that the pmbr might see it. i doubt that mewtwo is staying the same after one release with a ton of complaints. as a hardcore mewtwo main, i dont think that nerfs are a bad idea but im certainly not asking for melee mewtwo. just tone down a couple things that i find are over doing it

I see you want balance in , but honestly, this is how should have been playing this whole time. Now that just a couple of mains won a tourney, everyone is jumping on the OP train for no reason while is sitting squarely on the same tier as . I don't get it. How many mains do we see get really high placings? I understand that will/couldn't be "balanced" on the first try, but so many people are riding the OP train that it's quite annoying.

 

[Subtle One]

LOL

You're completely clueless. Of those, M2 only loses to Link. M2: Roy is 60:40, and the rest are hilarious curbstomps in m2's favor.

Learn to play.



Been playing against him since release, long ago figured out most of the stuff people are only just starting to learn.

He would be merely top tier, except for the fact that he hard-counters the rest of the top tiers. Only about 40% of the cast can compete with him, and of those only Link and *maybe* Mario have positive matchups.

Sorry, dude- I like playing as and against mewtwo, but it's pretty obvious that you just lack perspective here.

I think the spacies, MK, Ivy, and Mario need some nerfs too, if that helps. It's not like M2 is the only broken character out there - he's just the worst offender.

I lack perspective guys. You heard it hear first.

I've learned the MU with about 7 different characters. I've always historically been a better player than my roommate, and continue to be his coach - yet I cannot consistently beat him with anyone now. I can barely even take 2/10 games. When I do, it's because of obvious blunders on his part.

I'm not a great player, but I'd like to emphasize that we both agree he's much worse: which is reflected when he plays Melee or Toon Link (which he's practiced a lot too) against me and gets demolished. Whether or not mewtwo is 'broken', I think it's beyond question that he's easily one of the strongest in the game.

You can't beat your bad roommate cause M2 is too strong, which you've known since "long ago". Why didn't you propose any nerfs "long ago"? My assumption: I think you're actually just watching tourneys, losing to bad players and calling nerf because, like many others, you can't figure out what to do to stop some of M2's new options and you don't feel like learning. PMBR will undoubtedly make changes but this outcry of nerf is still ridiculous and arguably unjustified.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@Man Li Gi
You're aware of how hard Melee Jigglypuff destroys Peach, right? Because of the disjointed bair?

And how vastly and strictly better PM mewtwo is? And how much bigger and better his bair is?

Never mind. You're beyond reason.

Why didn't you propose any nerfs "long ago"?

Sigh.
http://smashboards.com/threads/floaty-purposes-mewtwo-general.341207/page-13#post-16109392
http://smashboards.com/threads/floaty-purposes-mewtwo-general.341207/page-14#post-16117558
http://smashboards.com/threads/floaty-purposes-mewtwo-general.341207/page-14#post-16120396
http://smashboards.com/threads/catchem-with-a-nerf-ball.341508/#post-16103513

I lack perspective guys. You heard it hear first.
My assumption: I think you're actually just watching tourneys, losing to bad players and calling nerf because, like many others, you can't figure out what to do to stop some of M2's new options and you don't feel like learning

You're welcome to assume whatever you like, and you'll go on being wrong. It's cool, a lot of people are biased in favor of the only character they kinda know how to play.

PMBR will undoubtedly make changes but this outcry of nerf is still ridiculous and arguably unjustified.

No. You're letting your bias blind you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[Youngster Joey]

I see you want balance in , but honestly, this is how should have been playing this whole time. Now that just a couple of mains won a tourney, everyone is jumping on the OP train for no reason while is sitting squarely on the same tier as . I don't get it. How many mains do we see get really high placings? I understand that will/couldn't be "balanced" on the first try, but so many people are riding the OP train that it's quite annoying.

i'd like you to find where i said mewtwo is OP. some characters should just have nerfs even though they arent OP (for example kirbycide and diddy's recovery). idk why you're flipping out about this when the thread is called "changes you'd like to see in mewtwo" since you seem to be against anything that might remotely change mewtwo. i posted some changes that i thought would be reasonable. and you seem to be closed minded so i doubt there will be anything that can convince you that any kind of nerf would be reasonable. i hope you start to get where im coming from and understand the point of this thread's existence

EDIT: im also done here for the time being since any post about opinions at all lead to arguments (nerfs, tier lists and mu's). this is mostly the reason i never post on the boards anymore. try to keep this in mind and lighten up. its just a game after all

 

[Subtle One]

I think this is incredibly pessimistic. He's easily in the top 5 characters, imo. Just has a bit of a learning curve.

If there's a balance problem with Mewtwo, it'll probably be with his fair/bair. Bair has more reach than pretty much any other move in the game barring D3's ftilt. It also comes out near-instantly, and has knockback that can send light characters into blast zones at ~100%. Being able to do it out of teleport is slightly obscene.

-guy whose roommate plays m2

Sure, but Ivy, Bowser, and Lucas were nerfed, and these results are all for 2.6b anyway.

Now *THAT* is subjective. I think M2 is demonstrably better than Bowser, Mario, and Ivy. The spacies aren't nearly as great as in Melee, and M2 stomps on them anyway. I don't know much about Lucas or Lucario.



That's not an argument, it's just me being an arrogant prick. :D

I could theoretically be wrong, but I'm extremely confident that everyone else is jumping the gun too much in even comparing new Mewtwo to the melee incarnation at all. He plays similarly, sure, but literally every single aspect of the character was improved dramatically. I haven't seen anybody play a mewtwo in PM that looks good yet; much less anything even beginning to approach the level of technical mastery at which the Melee vets are played.

Give it a couple months. If I'm wrong, we'll probably all know by then.

Sigh.

You're welcome to assume whatever you like, and you'll go on being wrong. It's cool, a lot of people are biased in favor of the only character they kinda know how to play.


No. You're letting your bias blind you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Nerf? I see talk of bair/fair being the issue which was probably at the time what YOU struggled against, right? I see he's not brain dead broken and takes a bit of a learning curve but could be top 5 material. Hm, safe to say the only bias here is yours because you think your short comings are everyone else'. It's cute you trying to goad me with insults but I actually can beat M2s with "low tiers" and "bad match ups" so it's really not a problem to forgive you, you're probably just being an "arrogant prick" again.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Right, because if I came out and said that he was broken and needed nerfs while everyone was still convinced that he was bottom tier; they'd all just hop on the bandwagon and agree with me - and not argue pointlessly like you're doing now.

Idiot.

Added to ignore, better things to do with my time than explain basic balance to children.

 

[Subtle One]

Right, because if I came out and said that he was broken and needed nerfs while everyone was still convinced that he was bottom tier; they'd all just hop on the bandwagon and agree with me - and not argue pointlessly like you're doing now.

Idiot.

Added to ignore, better things to do with my time than explain basic balance to children.

 

[Man Li Gi]

@Man Li Gi
You're aware of how hard Melee Jigglypuff destroys Peach, right? Because of the disjointed bair?

And how vastly and strictly better PM mewtwo is? And how much bigger and better his bair is?

Never mind. You're beyond reason.

I would hardly count a +1 favor for Jiggs is grounds for "destroying" X character, but fine be foolish about it.
OF course 's bair is is going to be bigger and stronger since his weight class is grounds enough for stronger attacks and longer range attacks. Would you not find it strange if a small extendable foot outreaches a lanky tail?

i'd like you to find where i said mewtwo is OP. some characters should just have nerfs even though they arent OP (for example kirbycide and diddy's recovery). idk why you're flipping out about this when the thread is called "changes you'd like to see in mewtwo" since you seem to be against anything that might remotely change mewtwo. i posted some changes that i thought would be reasonable. and you seem to be closed minded so i doubt there will be anything that can convince you that any kind of nerf would be reasonable. i hope you start to get where im coming from and understand the point of this thread's existence

You never said it, but it has been tossed around and I got that same vibe from you. What I didn't like about your nerf list is that hit both the offensive and defensive aspect of 's gameplay. I would prefer if you just chose one side to strip down. For instance, less powershield frames, laggier sidestep, laggier rolls, less grab range....etc are defensive options of nerfs that could happen to that wouldn't be so bothersome.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I would hardly count a +1 favor for Jiggs is grounds for "destroying" X character, but fine be foolish about it.
OF course 's bair is is going to be bigger and stronger since his weight class is grounds enough for stronger attacks and longer range attacks. Would you not find it strange if a small extendable foot outreaches a lanky tail?

"Mewtwo doesn't beat peach because not only is his bair far better, but he also weighs twice as much as Jigglypuff and is therefore way more difficult to kill! So, obviously Peach does better against Mewtwo because reasons!"

Jesus, dude. Seriously?

 

[Man Li Gi]

"Mewtwo doesn't beat peach because not only is his bair far better, but he also weighs twice as much as Jigglypuff and is therefore way more difficult to kill! So, obviously Peach does better against Mewtwo because reasons!"

Jesus, dude. Seriously?

While ignoring the previously stated reasons that hurt against , sure . is 97 in weight and is 65 so twice is not the right choice of words. is much floatier and a smaller target for to have her combos with while and are tall floaty characters that are comboed on easily. has faster, more varied, KO moves than bar 's Fair.

Your complaints/irony/salt in your posts are quite troubling.

 

[InfinityCollision]

tl;dr'd the emoticon spam.

He could probably use some small nerfs... Couple frames more on Teleport perhaps, nerf the buttgrab, maybe reduce tail range a bit. Have to admit I'm worried he'll get nerfed too hard. And of course any of these could be terrible ideas with or without the buffs/nerfs other characters will see in 4.0.

 

[BC.]

Does this character really need an up throw that kills characters at 110%?

Make it high base knockback but low knockback growth so it can still combo fast fallers, but won't kill floaty/medium characters really early.

 

[Frost | Odds]

The kill throw is one of the iconic parts of mewtwo from Melee, I wouldn't mind seeing it stay. Besides, it's hardly the real problem with the character.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Man you guys need to chillax a bit, whats with all these insults being thrown around?

 

[victinivcreate1]

GUYS. LETS END IT HERE.

What did people think Mewtwo was broken? Back air, tilt range, weight (too much CC), and after SKTAR 3, Teleport (what they really meant was nair, nair is Mach Tornado).

GUYS. Nerfing TP will not solve the problem! I can just hover up to you and nair you daily and your shield will still break in yo' face.
So guys, if we nerf TP and nair is still just as broken as it is,

The nerfs Mewtwo needs are

Decrease tail range, and thus the range of up tilt, forward tilt, down tilt, up air, and back air.

There should be at least 8 frames of lag time between the 8th hitbox of nair and the 9th and final hitbox of nair. This allows most characters to shieldgrab or Up B OoS.

Lower his weight to a value of 93 instead of 97. Mewtwo can CC moves for a VERY long time, and counter with dtilt to start a huge combo. This way he'll be KOed even EASIER vertically, and he'll die easier to horizontal KO moves as well.

Mewtwo should have ONE buff. Teleport should be able to go through the platforms we're standing on. In fact, any move in the game that resembles a Teleport should be able to go through platforms they were standing on. This includes Dimensional Cape, Vanish, and Farore's Wind.


These are the nerfs that Mewtwo needs. These nerfs aren't too significant, so Mewtwo will not be bottom tier, he'll still be a good character. Now lets stop fighting and calling each other names. This is Smashboards! Not Gamefaqs! We're a nicer community!

 

[Frost | Odds]

The fair is BS too, it breaks combos the same way as Luigi's nair, beats stuff like Wolf's flash with its hilarious disjoint, and leads into 0-deaths against a lot of the cast.

It might not be as much of a problem if the tail is dealt with, but we'll see.

 

[victinivcreate1]

The fair is BS too, it breaks combos the same way as Luigi's nair, beats stuff like Wolf's flash with its hilarious disjoint, and leads into 0-deaths against a lot of the cast.

It might not be as much of a problem if the tail is dealt with, but we'll see.

Fair should be disjointed to be honest. Shadow Claw in the Pokemon games is a Ghost Type move. Therefore making the attack extend further than it should is a nice homage to the original Pokemon games.

In Melee, Mewtwo's fair was still a nasty move. I think fair is as fine as it is. Many characters have powerful aerials, and aerials that combo well. An example would be Captain Falcon's up air. It can KO pretty well, but its a great combo extender too.

Also, I see you main Roy. Are you johning possibly? Because Roy can definitely hurt Mewtwo, but the PMBR really messed up with Roy's recovery (and Mewtwo's bair only adds insult to the injury). You should john on the Roy boards so your character can get the recovery he needs. I use Roy as one of my secondaries, I know your pain.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fair should be disjointed to be honest. Shadow Claw in the Pokemon games is a Ghost Type move. Therefore making the attack extend further than it should is a nice homage to the original Pokemon games.

I'm cool with it as long as the rest of his kit is dealt with appropriately. It really shouldn't be as disjointed as it is given the rest of his kit, though - particularly the teleport.

Also, I see you main Roy. Are you johning possibly?

No. More accurate to say that I'm experimenting with roy -- hands haven't recovered quite enough to put in a ton of practice with him yet. Regardless, I've played pretty much everyone against Mewtwo. My roommate is a pretty mediocre smasher and has only gotten as good with Mewtwo as he has because of my coaching (not johns, he'd tell you the same), but I can't really beat him with anyone anymore, due in roughly equal parts to my injury (rust) and Mewtwo's insanity.

He also crushed the last regional despite loads and loads and loads of awful mistakes, against much better players. I'm happy for him, but neither of us is really so deluded as to think he's fully earned it.

Because Roy can definitely hurt Mewtwo, but the PMBR really messed up with Roy's recovery (and Mewtwo's bair only adds insult to the injury). You should john on the Roy boards so your character can get the recovery he needs. I use Roy as one of my secondaries, I know your pain.

Agreed totally, I pretty much picked up Roy because he's one of the few that actually has the tools to deal with mewtwo, even though the MU is still really skewed in m2's favor. I was a goddamn bowser main in melee - I don't mind unfair matchups - but I really hate having huge swathes of the cast completely invalidated by broken characters.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm cool with it as long as the rest of his kit is dealt with appropriately. It really shouldn't be as disjointed as it is given the rest of his kit, though - particularly the teleport.


No. More accurate to say that I'm experimenting with roy -- hands haven't recovered quite enough to put in a ton of practice with him yet. Regardless, I've played pretty much everyone against Mewtwo. My roommate is a pretty mediocre smasher and has only gotten as good with Mewtwo as he has because of my coaching (not johns, he'd tell you the same), but I can't really beat him with anyone anymore, due in roughly equal parts to my injury (rust) and Mewtwo's insanity.

He also crushed the last regional despite loads and loads and loads of awful mistakes, against much better players. I'm happy for him, but neither of us is really so deluded as to think he's fully earned it.


Agreed totally, I pretty much picked up Roy because he's one of the few that actually has the tools to deal with mewtwo, even though the MU is still really skewed in m2's favor. I was a goddamn bowser main in melee - I don't mind unfair matchups - but I really hate having huge swathes of the cast completely invalidated by broken characters.

Any big names at the regional?

And ah. TBH the MU is really only 80:20 when Roy's offstage. Roy has no chance lmao. Onstage its a lot closer.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Any big names at the regional?

Not really. Alberta isn't that great at Smash, though a handful of our melee players got top 70 or so at EVO. FalseFalco doesn't usually show up for PM events.

I'm pretty vocal about Mewtwo and Ivysaur (and to a lesser extent, Lucas), because their completely obscene strength - expressed in perfect, safe neutral games (though Lucas's isn't quite as good) and stupid punish games - are pretty single-handedly ruining our local scene. Melee elitists use them as an excuse to constantly hate on PM, claiming it's a 'jank' or 'dumb' game because of a couple dumb characters. It's tough to argue with them.

It's really tough to get excited for a PM event when you know you're just going to get totally starved for interaction and lose in the most frustrating, grindy possible fashion to the top players. Would anyone want to play Melee if Jigglypuff's bair hit in every direction at the same time and she had a lagless teleport on her up-b?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Not really. Alberta isn't that great at Smash, though a handful of our melee players got top 70 or so at EVO. FalseFalco doesn't usually show up for PM events.

I'm pretty vocal about Mewtwo and Ivysaur (and to a lesser extent, Lucas), because their completely obscene strength - expressed in perfect, safe neutral games (though Lucas's isn't quite as good) and stupid punish games - are pretty single-handedly ruining our local scene. Melee elitists use them as an excuse to constantly hate on PM, claiming it's a 'jank' or 'dumb' game because of a couple dumb characters. It's tough to argue with them.

It's really tough to get excited for a PM event when you know you're just going to get totally starved for interaction and lose in the most frustrating, grindy possible fashion to the top players. Would anyone want to play Melee if Jigglypuff's bair hit in every direction at the same time?

Lucas I think is highly broken, but he's beatable. PMBR made him a space animal with better mobility. I mean come on. Down B that you can jump cancel? BS. PMBR gave him WAYYYYYYY too many options. I mean he can WD out of dang Magnet. Even Mewtwo can't wavedash out of Teleport.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Lucas I think is highly broken, but he's beatable

Only by a small number of cast members.

I think that's goddamn unacceptable.

I just want to play Bowser and Wario without instantly losing every match before it begins. Is that so wrong?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Only by a small number of cast members.

I think that's goddamn unacceptable.

I just want to play Bowser and Wario without instantly losing every match before it begins. Is that so wrong?

I think ANTi beat Rolex's Snake 2-1 with Wario. Wario is good. Bowser? Nick Riddle got 5th at CEO I think? Beat DEHF's spacies relatively easily too?

Now I think you're just not very good. Which is nothing to be ashamed of. You'll improve. If you put the work in.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, I suck with wario.

I've never dropped a set with Bowser except to Ivysaur, Marth, or Sheik though. Mewtwo would probably be on that list, but I haven't had the displeasure of playing him in tournament. Spacies aren't the problem - unwinnable MUs vs many projectile- and spacing-based characters with good grabs are the problem.

Now I think you're just not very good.

Kindly shove it up yours. Even if this were true (hell, it might be while I'm still rusty), I've spent more time studying high level games than most people ever will due to the physical inability to play.

You're absolutely deluded if you think Wario is anything but strictly worse than M2 and Ivysaur and probably Marth and Pit. He has losing matchups against most of the cast and mediocre ones against the rest, no approach options, terrible speed, short range, and easily the worst recovery in the game.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yeah, I suck with wario.

I've never dropped a set with Bowser except to Ivysaur, Marth, or Sheik though. Mewtwo would probably be on that list, but I haven't had the displeasure of playing him in tournament. Spacies aren't the problem - unwinnable MUs vs many projectile- and spacing-based characters with good grabs are the problem.


Kindly shove it up yours. Even if this were true (hell, it might be while I'm still rusty), I've spent more time studying high level games than most people ever will due to the physical inability to play.

You're absolutely deluded if you think Wario is anything but strictly worse than M2 and Ivysaur and probably Marth and Pit. He has losing matchups against most of the cast and mediocre ones against the rest, no approach options, terrible speed, short range, and easily the worst recovery in the game.

Wario is not that bad I know that. Sheik suffers the exact same problems. Wario's positives are actually decent. He has a decent combo game, his recovery is only bad if he gets spiked early, he lives horizontal blows decently, dat clap tho, and his down throw sets up tech chases nicely. And there's more, but I'm not a Wario user, I don't jnow that much about him.

Also, Ivysaur isn't that jank. Every Ivysaur I have played got wrecked by my Marth, and he's considered mid tier in PM.

 

[ComposedJam]

Yeah, I suck with wario.

I've never dropped a set with Bowser except to Ivysaur, Marth, or Sheik though. Mewtwo would probably be on that list, but I haven't had the displeasure of playing him in tournament. Spacies aren't the problem - unwinnable MUs vs many projectile- and spacing-based characters with good grabs are the problem.


Kindly shove it up yours. Even if this were true (hell, it might be while I'm still rusty), I've spent more time studying high level games than most people ever will due to the physical inability to play.

You're absolutely deluded if you think Wario is anything but strictly worse than M2 and Ivysaur and probably Marth and Pit. He has losing matchups against most of the cast and mediocre ones against the rest, no approach options, terrible speed, short range, and easily the worst recovery in the game.

Wario has several approaches and great air speed. Sure, his range could use some work, but he has several other advantages to cancel that out. His recovery is not good, but definitely not the worst. I think your the one who's deluded here, you seem to think there are several characters that are just too broken, yet there isn't a single character in this game that lives up to the broken nature of metaknight in brawl, or even fox and falco in melee.

I agree with victinivcreate1 in that you just need to get better with the characters and/or matchups in question. I don't care if you've spent 15 years studying high level smash games, it doesn't qualify you in the slightest.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wario is not that bad I know that. Sheik suffers the exact same problems.

Exact same problems like a crap grab game, no projectile, no disjoint, no approaches/crap dash attack?

Wario's positives are actually decent. He has a decent combo game

Yeah, that helps.

, his recovery is only bad if he gets spiked early

You serious? It's not only one of the shortest in the game, but also among the most easily gimpable.

dat clap tho

dat clap tho

and his down throw sets up tech chases nicely

Yeah, when he can get it. Wario has even more problems getting grabs than Melee Jiggs. The command grab is effin sweet though.

Also, Ivysaur isn't that jank. Every Ivysaur I have played got wrecked by my Marth, and he's considered mid tier in PM.

Marth beats Ivy. The main problem with her isn't that she's too strong overall, but rather that she completely hoses the large number of cast members who simply have no way to ever get in on her.

I think your the one who's deluded here, you seem to think there are several characters that are just too broken, yet there isn't a single character in this game that lives up to the broken nature of metaknight in brawl, or even fox and falco in melee.

1. You're.
2. Mewtwo is easily stronger than Fox and Falco. He's still extremely untapped, has a perfect neutral game, near-perfect punish game, and can't be comboed or gimped in nearly the same way that fox/falco can.

I'm sorry, you're just wrong. I know it sucks when people recognize that your main is OP, but you're going to have to deal with it at some point.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Complaints and delusion.

Mewtwo is easily comboed by MK, Peach, Squirtle, Link, Sheik and a few more due to the overall size and floatiness of M2. An extremely predictable path from offstage recovery and having no hitbox on it and having the grab glitch affect it makes Teleport easy to gimp. From mid to far range, sure M2 has a great neutral game, but up close...you're kidding.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Frost | Odds
Isn't Sheik considering bad in PM because her down throw is GONE. Sheik doesn't really have an approach and her DD isn't that good. Dash attack may be lightning quick but it has no follow ups when DI'd correctly. Needles are no longer transcendent. They don't rip through stuff like they did in Melee. So technically, everything that needles were good for are now worse overall. Edgeguarding with needles isn't the best thing now, when Pit can just nair to beat the needles and then get back on stage. Sheik has to seriously work for her KOs. And the fact that she lost her extremely dangerous Brawl DACUS adds insult to the injury. No good ways to KO. Yes Chop is still ridiculous, but how you gonna combo into chop? Nothing's guaranteed to lead to Chop.

Ivysaur needs correction on two things. Back air and ftilt. Everything else is completely manageable. Even this down throw to Solar Beam isn't OP. You're just DI'ing incorrectly. As for up throw, DI behind Ivysaur. Razor Leaf is annoying, but its perfectly beatable.

Also, Mewtwo is definitely stronger than Falco. Not Fox. Who has a move that can KO Mewtwo at 65, guaranteed? Fox. Who can shield pressure Mewtwo the best? Fox. Who can literally camp out Mewtwo? Fox. Who has a nearly guaranteed set up into up smash? Fox. Mewtwo 0-deaths Fox, yes. But if he messes up, Fox doesn't have to do much work to KO Mewtwo. Four nair shines, some lasers, and Mewtwo is at KO percent. Falco can't camp Mewtwo. He gets comboed even easier. His recovery is all the more gimpable. His main KO move is a horizontal knockback one, and Mewtwo shrugs off those like no problem.

There's a reason why Fox is still considered #1, even when Falco is considered only high tier, and there are powerhouses like Diddy Kong, Lucas and Mario running rampant.

Even after Fox, Mewtwo isn't #2. Arguably Pit is. IMO, the top tier list looks like this.


I'd say Mewtwo is even worse than MK. Many of Mewtwo's near even MUs are considered advantageous for MK (60:40 in general), and MK beats Mewtwo already.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo is easily comboed by MK, Peach, Squirtle, Link, Sheik and a few more due to the overall size and floatiness of M2. An extremely predictable path from offstage recovery and having no hitbox on it and having the grab glitch affect it makes Teleport easy to gimp. From mid to far range, sure M2 has a great neutral game, but up close...you're kidding.

There's so much wrong with this I'm not even going to bother. You appear to be playing a different game.

Isn't Sheik considering bad in PM because her down throw is GONE.

It's not gone. It's just a DI trap. If you read DI properly, it's actually better than before -- even if opponent wins the DI game, it's really not that bad at all.

The addition of RAR also improved Sheik greatly in terms of consistency, now it's much easier to shbair quickly in the direction you're facing, which stuffs pretty much every aerial approach in the game.

Sheik doesn't really have an approach and her DD isn't that good. Dash attack may be lightning quick but it has no follow ups when DI'd correctly.

Right. She's Sheik.

Needles are no longer transcendent. They don't rip through stuff like they did in Melee.

Yeah, they do rip through a lot of stuff. They beat Razor Leaf, for example.

So technically, everything that needles were good for are now worse overall.

They were the second best projectile in Melee, and the fact that they stopped stuff like fully charged Shadow Balls was straight up stupid.

Edgeguarding with needles isn't the best thing now, when Pit can just nair to beat the needles and then get back on stage. Sheik has to seriously work for her KOs. And the fact that she lost her extremely dangerous Brawl DACUS adds insult to the injury. No good ways to KO. Yes Chop is still ridiculous, but how you gonna combo into chop? Nothing's guaranteed to lead to Chop.

Okay?

Ivysaur needs correction on two things. Back air and ftilt.

I think you mean dtilt. Cute that you're apparently seeing fit to comment on a character that you've never labbed with.

Everything else is completely manageable.

Sigh.

Even this down throw to Solar Beam isn't OP. You're just DI'ing incorrectly.

Uh, I don't believe I've ever complained about that. Solarbeam in general is broken, but that setup doesn't work.

As for up throw, DI behind Ivysaur.

Uthrow upb still works, she just has to be semi-conscious if you do that.

Razor Leaf is annoying, but its perfectly beatable.

Yes, by some cast members.

Also, Mewtwo is definitely stronger than Falco. Not Fox. Who has a move that can KO Mewtwo at 65, guaranteed? Fox. Who can shield pressure Mewtwo the best? Fox. Who can literally camp out Mewtwo? Fox. Who has a nearly guaranteed set up into up smash? Fox. Mewtwo 0-deaths Fox, yes. But if he messes up, Fox doesn't have to do much work to KO Mewtwo. Four nair shines, some lasers, and Mewtwo is at KO percent. Falco can't camp Mewtwo. He gets comboed even easier. His recovery is all the more gimpable. His main KO move is a horizontal knockback one, and Mewtwo shrugs off those like no problem.

Even if Fox won the matchup against Mewtwo (he doesn't - even the hugely mewtwo-biased M2K agrees), Mewtwo's MU spread against the rest of the cast is much better and more consistent. He also has the advantage of having a much, much lower tech floor and ceiling, making it easier for m2 players to focus on mindgames in tournament rather than not messing up their tech.

There's a reason why Fox is still considered #1, even when Falco is considered only high tier

Yeah, because people are stupid, and every Fox has 10 years of experience while Mewtwo is still totally unexplored.

I wouldn't dream of contesting that Fox is #2, but your placement of falco is pretty laughable.

and there are powerhouses like Diddy Kong, Lucas and Mario running rampant.

Tough to argue with that.

I'd say Mewtwo is even worse than MK. Many of Mewtwo's near even MUs are considered advantageous for MK (60:40 in general), and MK beats Mewtwo already.

Sure, dude.