Changes you'd like to see in Mewtwo

[DMG]

>Mewtwo
>Losing MU's

Only on the Mewtwo boards would I dream of seeing this

I might as well post constructive info on what to change about the M2:

(These changes are not all meant to be applied together. Mix and match them to find an enjoyable Mewtwo that isn't super lame. Say 2 out of 5 things proposed? Etc)

1. Make tail hurtboxes bigger again like Melee. At least I'm pretty sure they buffed it so that his tail didn't screw him over as much.

2. Get rid of the ability to attack out of Teleport.

3. Alternatively, get rid of the ability to float out of Teleport.

4. Get rid of the ability to turn around *after* the port is done. Meaning if you port 100% directly horizontal, you should be forced to face that direction instead of having the option to turn around instantly and Bair for example.

5. If no nerfs are given to floating or teleports, nerf Uair to be more manageable for the general cast to deal with.

6. Nerf how long or how "easy" you can move the float around. Say you can only float horizontally, or cut the float time in half/etc

Find a mix of those changes to apply and you'll have a fun character for mains + other characters. He doesn't need everything stripped down, but it doesn't take a genius to properly explain why the total combination of his new/buffed traits is a tad unhealthy.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Eh, I think he might lose to Link!

 

[Man Li Gi]

Cocaine is a helluva a drug.

There's so much wrong with this I'm not even going to bother. You appear to be playing a different game.

I guess I am because the game I play doesn't have everyone apparently broken or OP.

I think you mean dtilt. Cute that you're apparently seeing fit to comment on a character that you've never labbed with.

Irony brah.

It's not gone. It's just a DI trap. If you read DI properly, it's actually better than before -- even if opponent wins the DI game, it's really not that bad at all.

Stop talking. You really have no idea......No.

 

[ComposedJam]

Exact same problems like a crap grab game, no projectile, no disjoint, no approaches/crap dash attack?


Yeah, that helps.


You serious? It's not only one of the shortest in the game, but also among the most easily gimpable.


dat clap tho


Yeah, when he can get it. Wario has even more problems getting grabs than Melee Jiggs. The command grab is effin sweet though.


Marth beats Ivy. The main problem with her isn't that she's too strong overall, but rather that she completely hoses the large number of cast members who simply have no way to ever get in on her.


1. You're.
2. Mewtwo is easily stronger than Fox and Falco. He's still extremely untapped, has a perfect neutral game, near-perfect punish game, and can't be comboed or gimped in nearly the same way that fox/falco can.

I'm sorry, you're just wrong. I know it sucks when people recognize that your main is OP, but you're going to have to deal with it at some point.

Ah, you caught a typo I made early in the morning, kudos.

I'm going to stop talking to you because it is completely obvious you lack any sort of actual critical thinking skill and just want to complain about a character instead of get better at the game.

I hope someday you see the error in your ways. See ya!

 

[Frost | Odds]

Really cute that you guys are apparently incapable of holding a reasonable conversation and must instead resort to personal attacks. It's a shame that you hold yourselves above actually addressing a single one of my points.

Such is bias. I tried.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Really cute that you guys are apparently incapable of holding a reasonable conversation and must instead resort to personal attacks. It's a shame that you hold yourselves above actually addressing a single one of my points.

Such is bias. I tried.

Let the irony/salt/complaints flow.

 

[victinivcreate1]

>Mewtwo
>Losing MU's

Only on the Mewtwo boards would I dream of seeing this

I might as well post constructive info on what to change about the M2:

(These changes are not all meant to be applied together. Mix and match them to find an enjoyable Mewtwo that isn't super lame. Say 2 out of 5 things proposed? Etc)

1. Make tail hurtboxes bigger again like Melee. At least I'm pretty sure they buffed it so that his tail didn't screw him over as much.

2. Get rid of the ability to attack out of Teleport.

3. Alternatively, get rid of the ability to float out of Teleport.

4. Get rid of the ability to turn around *after* the port is done. Meaning if you port 100% directly horizontal, you should be forced to face that direction instead of having the option to turn around instantly and Bair for example.

5. If no nerfs are given to floating or teleports, nerf Uair to be more manageable for the general cast to deal with.

6. Nerf how long or how "easy" you can move the float around. Say you can only float horizontally, or cut the float time in half/etc

Find a mix of those changes to apply and you'll have a fun character for mains + other characters. He doesn't need everything stripped down, but it doesn't take a genius to properly explain why the total combination of his new/buffed traits is a tad unhealthy.

Since when was being able to turn around after Teleport broken? Also, hover out of Teleport isn't broken either.

How many times do I have to say it. Nair breaks Mewtwo. Bair breaks Mewtwo. Not his mobility. Also his weight also breaks himm make him lightwr and nerf the two aerials. No longer broken. Why? He can't break shields now. You can nerf TP all you want. I can still hover in your face and nair you and bust your shield up. Nerf nair. Its simple and everyone is missing it lol.

@ Frost | Odds you said Sheik's down throw was better than before, because now it is a DI trap.

...
So a move that DI traps is somehow better than a move that has guaranteed follow-ups 100% of the time?

Think about that. Then hopefully you'll realize where you went wrong.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds you said Sheik's down throw was better than before, because now it is a DI trap.

No, I said IF you guess the opponent's DI, it's better than in melee, because it's easier to combo out of.

Of course the throw overall is nerfed, but it can situationally be better in conjunction with the bthrow.

Jesus Christ, you people need to work on your reading comprehension. Stop jumping to conclusions and trying to make me out to be Hitler or something.

 

[victinivcreate1]

No, I said IF you guess the opponent's DI, it's better than in melee, because it's easier to combo out of.

Of course the throw overall is nerfed, but it can situationally be better in conjunction with the bthrow.

Jesus Christ, you people need to work on your reading comprehension. Stop jumping to conclusions and trying to make me out to be Hitler or something.

If you read DI for the Melee down throw it's guaranteed...

You just admitted it. Sheik now relies of BAD DI for KO setups. That's dumb.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If you read DI for the Melee down throw it's guaranteed...

You just admitted it. Sheik now relies of BAD DI for KO setups. That's dumb.

She has lots of other KO setups. It's a bit of a nerf, but she's still got solid matchups against almost the entire cast. If anything, it's telling that Mewtwo is one of the very few exceptions.

TBH I'd be happy if she got some kind of buff to compensate, such as a useful side-b, but atm she's one of the most well-balanced characters in PM.

Wrong place for that discussion anyway.

 

[DMG]

Since when was being able to turn around after Teleport broken? Also, hover out of Teleport isn't broken either.

How many times do I have to say it. Nair breaks Mewtwo. Bair breaks Mewtwo. Not his mobility. Also his weight also breaks himm make him lightwr and nerf the two aerials. No longer broken. Why? He can't break shields now. You can nerf TP all you want. I can still hover in your face and nair you and bust your shield up. Nerf nair. Its simple and everyone is missing it lol.

His moves get 5x better with that mobility. Floating aerials and TP'd aerials are so much better than if he were a "regular" character that had to toss moves out like Marth Fair without being everywhere. You're calling the moves busted, but missing that they initially start to get exponentially more busted when you add his Movement options.


What is scarier for a Link player after he throws a projectile? Feeling unsafe with the thought that you can TP in with an aerial, or non TP'd straight 100% horizontal floating Nairs? In neutral, it's like that for a lot of characters. It's how well/varied in direction he can float or TP the moves in closer, not unbeatable hitboxes or just slow/obvious float approaches that warrant fear. The levels of "busted" for floating Nair skyrockets with the ability to TP it (and technically the ability to weave it in a billion directions instead of just being a horizontal float).


If you take away his mobility (not just Upb, but floating), I'd pay you thousands of dollars if you were able to break Mewtwo with very VERY vanilla looking Nairs and Bairs. Everyone knows that being able to float this proficiently, while getting goodies like floats + attacks from TP's or turn around after TP, just adds more and more to his capabilities to the point where you're not really sure if Mewtwo CAN'T handle everything if given lab time and exploration. Bair ain't busted until you get the ability to do 3 of them offstage in 1 float, while moving that float in 4 different directions, AFTER getting to TP + turnaround to close the gap and pressure them more. Stuff like that is too much, and it like 70% mobility, 30% good move. Same with Nair. Uair is probably the exception, closer to 50-50


Moves like Bair, Nair, and Uair don't need to be nerfed if he were a standard character. You know, the ones where after Upb you freefall, you usually can't float or float so good, etc. If his moves were this busted *before* mobility was given, he would have been banned. In PMBR's own developmental world. Like removed from game banned. They are quite manageable though, when he's not breaking the mold of smash with that kind of mobility and versatility.

 

[victinivcreate1]

His moves get 5x better with that mobility. Floating aerials and TP'd aerials are so much better than if he were a "regular" character that had to toss moves out like Marth Fair without being everywhere. You're calling the moves busted, but missing that they initially start to get exponentially more busted when you add his Movement options.


What is scarier for a Link player after he throws a projectile? Feeling unsafe with the thought that you can TP in with an aerial, or non TP'd straight 100% horizontal floating Nairs? In neutral, it's like that for a lot of characters. It's how well/varied in direction he can float or TP the moves in closer, not unbeatable hitboxes or just slow/obvious float approaches that warrant fear. The levels of "busted" for floating Nair skyrockets with the ability to TP it (and technically the ability to weave it in a billion directions instead of just being a horizontal float).


If you take away his mobility (not just Upb, but floating), I'd pay you thousands of dollars if you were able to break Mewtwo with very VERY vanilla looking Nairs and Bairs. Everyone knows that being able to float this proficiently, while getting goodies like floats + attacks from TP's or turn around after TP, just adds more and more to his capabilities to the point where you're not really sure if Mewtwo CAN'T handle everything if given lab time and exploration. Bair ain't busted until you get the ability to do 3 of them offstage in 1 float, while moving that float in 4 different directions, AFTER getting to TP + turnaround to close the gap and pressure them more. Stuff like that is too much, and it like 70% mobility, 30% good move. Same with Nair. Uair is probably the exception, closer to 50-50


Moves like Bair, Nair, and Uair don't need to be nerfed if he were a standard character. You know, the ones where after Upb you freefall, you usually can't float or float so good, etc. If his moves were this busted *before* mobility was given, he would have been banned. In PMBR's own developmental world. Like removed from game banned. They are quite manageable though, when he's not breaking the mold of smash with that kind of mobility and versatility.

IDK why the PMBR made it so you could TP offstage and still double jump back on. Makes no sense to me tbh. If you TP from ground to offstage, he should have no jump.

Also, back air is already pretty broken. It covers WAYYYY too much range (massive horizontal reach, and surprising vertical reach as well). Remember, Mewtwo can still DJC, so bair would still be complained about. Nair? Not so much. But the move is still broken to an extent. You can get free grabs out of it if you use it smartly. Its kinda ridiculous. Free grab when Mewtwo's opponent is at 120. Broke to me.

My list of Mewtwo nerfs, without removing his mobility completely (which would give us a Melee Mewtwo, which no one wants)

-Each hit of nair does half of the shield damage it does now, and there is 7-8 frames between the 8th and the final hit of nair, allowing easy shield grabs for most characters.
-Shorten range of back air, up tilt, up air down tilt, and forward tilt.
-If you Teleport from the ground to offstage, you should not have your double jump (and subsequently your hover).
-Decrease weight from 97 to 90. This means he can't CC things as well as before, and start huge combos from down tilt.

Now if you think that with these nerfs we would still have a broken mewtwo, then something is wrong with you. Tail range has been reduced. Weight has been reduced. Nair has been nerfed. We good?

 

[ComposedJam]

His moves get 5x better with that mobility. Floating aerials and TP'd aerials are so much better than if he were a "regular" character that had to toss moves out like Marth Fair without being everywhere. You're calling the moves busted, but missing that they initially start to get exponentially more busted when you add his Movement options.


What is scarier for a Link player after he throws a projectile? Feeling unsafe with the thought that you can TP in with an aerial, or non TP'd straight 100% horizontal floating Nairs? In neutral, it's like that for a lot of characters. It's how well/varied in direction he can float or TP the moves in closer, not unbeatable hitboxes or just slow/obvious float approaches that warrant fear. The levels of "busted" for floating Nair skyrockets with the ability to TP it (and technically the ability to weave it in a billion directions instead of just being a horizontal float).


If you take away his mobility (not just Upb, but floating), I'd pay you thousands of dollars if you were able to break Mewtwo with very VERY vanilla looking Nairs and Bairs. Everyone knows that being able to float this proficiently, while getting goodies like floats + attacks from TP's or turn around after TP, just adds more and more to his capabilities to the point where you're not really sure if Mewtwo CAN'T handle everything if given lab time and exploration. Bair ain't busted until you get the ability to do 3 of them offstage in 1 float, while moving that float in 4 different directions, AFTER getting to TP + turnaround to close the gap and pressure them more. Stuff like that is too much, and it like 70% mobility, 30% good move. Same with Nair. Uair is probably the exception, closer to 50-50


Moves like Bair, Nair, and Uair don't need to be nerfed if he were a standard character. You know, the ones where after Upb you freefall, you usually can't float or float so good, etc. If his moves were this busted *before* mobility was given, he would have been banned. In PMBR's own developmental world. Like removed from game banned. They are quite manageable though, when he's not breaking the mold of smash with that kind of mobility and versatility.

you are aware of the fact that other characters can attack out of UP B, right? not only mewtwo can combo out of his UP B

 

[Frost | Odds]

you are aware of the fact that other characters can attack out of UP B, right? not only mewtwo can combo out of his UP B

True, but other characters can't brawlnado out of a lag-free up-B that can be aimed anywhere.

 

[DMG]

Some replies in Red

My list of Mewtwo nerfs, without removing his mobility completely (which would give us a Melee Mewtwo, which no one wants)

-Each hit of nair does half of the shield damage it does now, and there is 7-8 frames between the 8th and the final hit of nair, allowing easy shield grabs for most characters.

People usually don't keep the Nair in front of the person shielding. They tend to hover it in other places, sometimes hoping for a shield poke, other times just to avoid grabs or any followups. Float Nairs from underneath, floating above and behind the shield, etc. This change wouldn't help much, since smart usage is near impossible to grab/shield grab anyways. You're better off giving Nair more noticeable cooldown/end lag so that when people float it under/over/behind you to be safe, you might have a reasonable window of opportunity to punish.

-Shorten range of back air, up tilt, up air down tilt, and forward tilt.

Depends on how much you reduce the range. They don't necessarily need a ton of range gone, it's just lame when you combo that range with his movement. Bairs and Uairs of this size with a stripped down (no mobility) Mewtwo are probably fine. If the range is a bit smaller, it may not stop M2 from still getting huge advantages by being able to float and TP. See: offstage Bairs, floating Uair chains

-If you Teleport from the ground to offstage, you should not have your double jump (and subsequently your hover).

You'd basically have to take away the ability to float out of teleports in general. As long as you save your DJ, you can TP out and use the float. Getting rid of just this prob wouldn't be enough, although it does make no sense ya.

-Decrease weight from 97 to 90. This means he can't CC things as well as before, and start huge combos from down tilt.

This is kind of minor though. He doesn't ruin most MU's or scenarios by being able to CC or be heavy enough to live: these are just a tad excessive for a character that's already GG status elsewhere.

Now if you think that with these nerfs we would still have a broken mewtwo, then something is wrong with you. Tail range has been reduced. Weight has been reduced. Nair has been nerfed. We good?

 

[ComposedJam]

you are aware of the fact that other characters can attack out of UP B for movement and positioning, right?

True, but other characters can't brawlnado out of a lag-free up-B that can be aimed anywhere.

1. Not anywhere close to as good at the tornado, in my opinion.
2. Teleport is not lag free, silly goose. You can hit him before and after he teleports.
3. The direction of the UP B is not what was in question, attacking out of it was what was in question. That point is completely irrelevant.

sonic can hit you up, UP B then Uair you and kill you. game & watch can up b out of shield and have his way with you afterwards. pikachu's UP B can damage, has two omnidirectional dashes, can be wavedashed out of, and you can attack out of (if you cancel it). Lucario can attack out of his up b and if he lands the attack he can do ANOTHER UP B. metaknight glides after his UP B and has a powerful attack out of glide.

but yea, nerf teleport.

 

[Frost | Odds]

1. Not anywhere close to as good at the tornado, in my opinion.

In a vacuum, no. But when combined with hover and teleport: absolutely. Especially when you can shield pressure with one nair, then shieldpoke into a 0-death combo with a fair, or nair again in utterly perfect safety.

2. Teleport is not lag free, silly goose. You can hit him before and after he teleports.

3 frames is not 'lag'. Sorry.

3. The direction of the UP B is not what was in question, attacking out of it was what was in question. That point is completely irrelevant.

It is relevant, because it represents the vast number of options Mewtwo has, which compounds their safety. Is he going to TP into you, or TP away and charge a shadow ball? Both require utterly different responses, and represent only two of the many possible options.

sonic can hit you up, UP B then Uair you and kill you. game & watch can up b out of shield and have his way with you afterwards. pikachu's UP B can damage, has two omnidirectional dashes, can be wavedashed out of, and you can attack out of (if you cancel it). Lucario can attack out of his up b and if he lands the attack he can do ANOTHER UP B. metaknight glides after his UP B and has a powerful attack out of glide.

but yea, nerf teleport.

Don't forget GnW, whose kit is so obviously superior to Mewtwo's, it's a wonder he isn't a widely-discussed target for the nerf bat.

The only one of those options that has even close to the mobility of Mewtwo's is Pikachu's upB - and that is WAY less safe than M2's TP. Are you seriously arguing that Pikachu is better than mewtwo, or that that option deserves a nerf?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Some replies in Red

But your nerfs make me wanna drop the character. The fun thing about Mewtwo is his incredible mobility. His entire moveset should focus on that mobility. I wouldn't mind if you nerfed the heck out of everything in PM Mewtwo, but if you took his newfound powerful Teleport and his Hover, then I have a problem.

IMO, we should nerf Mewtwo by individual attacks, not by his entire dang playstyle. Even without Hover, bair is still good and has BROKE range. Nair is still very strong. Up air is still likely the best juggling move in the game (though R.O.B's up air does have a few words to say). He could still CC and start huge combos. His tilt range would still be ridiculous.

Nerf the moves. Not ruin his playstyle.

 

[Mikarugi]

Honestly I think Mewtwo's tail length is fine (although I might be a bit biased because I really like tails and don't want to see it shortened lol) I think a better way to approach his tail moves is to make them less disjoint. The problem with this is that giving the tail more hurtboxes would only make him a bigger target, which would nerf other things other than just his tail attacks. I've only just started to make mewtwo a secondary so I don't really know much about what needs changing but I agree that nerfing his playstyle might not be the best idea, Mewtwo is a tricky one to change, as he could plummet to melee tier or continue to sit at the top (But I honestly think mewtwo isn't that overbearing, just strong)

 

[DMG]

But your nerfs make me wanna drop the character. The fun thing about Mewtwo is his incredible mobility. His entire moveset should focus on that mobility. I wouldn't mind if you nerfed the heck out of everything in PM Mewtwo, but if you took his newfound powerful Teleport and his Hover, then I have a problem.

IMO, we should nerf Mewtwo by individual attacks, not by his entire dang playstyle. Even without Hover, bair is still good and has BROKE range. Nair is still very strong. Up air is still likely the best juggling move in the game (though R.O.B's up air does have a few words to say). He could still CC and start huge combos. His tilt range would still be ridiculous.

Nerf the moves. Not ruin his playstyle.

I don't think you realize just how far you'd have to nerf those moves though for things to be good. I'd be down with it if all you had to do was cut Mewtwo's tail literally in half: that wouldn't be good enough though. Half-sized M2 Bair with the same teleports and floats that he has now is still kind of unhealthy. Same with Uair. His ability to adjust his positioning and close gaps with these moves is inherently strong enough, that barring unfair and over the top nerfs to attack range or speed, he would probably be able to compensate. M2's Bair would have to be so sucky to override how good it feels to be able to use 3+ of them offstage deep with floating and still make it back. His Nair would have to be beyond bad, to make up for how good it is to float them behind/below/above shields. Etc


Nerfing individual attacks as far as they would have to get nerfed, to keep this mobility fair, would probably be even less fun for M2 mains. Imagine being forced to port or float attacks because they were unviable or kind of bad otherwise. Would you rather have that, than a Mewtwo that can't pretend to be Super Jiggs offstage?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yo @ DMG

PM Mewtwo mobility. (All his Hover and
Teleport stuff)

Nair nerfed.

Melee Mewtwo range on tail, hurt boxes on all parts of tail. Thats a nerf. A BIG nerf. No more TP hover bair complaining. EASY shieldgrab. End of discussion.

If you think that's broken, I don't even know anymore.

 

[DMG]

Having a hurtbox on the whole tail wouldn't instantly make it easy to shield grab if you still have the ability to float upwards or pull back/away to space with just the tip. People like Marth or D3 might have guaranteed shield grabs in those cases, but it wouldn't be so for the avg char. Or with platforms factored in, you might be able to technically swat people with the tail while slightly under the platform (and under some grab ranges). Just nerfing the range or tail a bit wouldn't totally sweep those scenarios into "GG Mewtwo gets punished".


What dictates that Mewtwo gameplay *should* focus around hovering and TPing? Why can't he just be a buffed Melee Mewtwo, with those two as supplemental options that help him a tad? If you like the mobility choices, why not settle for a "70-80%" nerfed version of their former self? My nerfs to his movement are less severe than drastically altering range/speed/cooldown/etc traits for attacks, and if the character has at least some merit for NOT using floats or hovering, nerfing the moves so hard will kill those uses and pigeon-hole players further down the mobility road. I certainly don't want that for a character.


Keep him as a decent character on his own, with floats and hovers separating Mewtwo players in skill. Don't leave them so optimal (as they are now) that you are basically inferior to other players for not using them a lot, and don't nerf his attacks so much that you're forced to use the mobility tools to avoid being unviable. Both scenarios are focused heavily on using those tools, and that's probably unhealthy/unwanted. If you want to keep these options literally 100% the same, attacks will need to suffer on a quite hefty basis to have any real impact. It doesn't sound like the best plan.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Having a hurtbox on the whole tail wouldn't instantly make it easy to shield grab if you still have the ability to float upwards or pull back/away to space with just the tip. People like Marth or D3 might have guaranteed shield grabs in those cases, but it wouldn't be so for the avg char. Or with platforms factored in, you might be able to technically swat people with the tail while slightly under the platform (and under some grab ranges). Just nerfing the range or tail a bit wouldn't totally sweep those scenarios into "GG Mewtwo gets punished".


What dictates that Mewtwo gameplay *should* focus around hovering and TPing? Why can't he just be a buffed Melee Mewtwo, with those two as supplemental options that help him a tad? If you like the mobility choices, why not settle for a "70-80%" nerfed version of their former self? My nerfs to his movement are less severe than drastically altering range/speed/cooldown/etc traits for attacks, and if the character has at least some merit for NOT using floats or hovering, nerfing the moves so hard will kill those uses and pigeon-hole players further down the mobility road. I certainly don't want that for a character.


Keep him as a decent character on his own, with floats and hovers separating Mewtwo players in skill. Don't leave them so optimal (as they are now) that you are basically inferior to other players for not using them a lot, and don't nerf his attacks so much that you're forced to use the mobility tools to avoid being unviable. Both scenarios are focused heavily on using those tools, and that's probably unhealthy/unwanted. If you want to keep these options literally 100% the same, attacks will need to suffer on a quite hefty basis to have any real impact. It doesn't sound like the best plan.

How much range did Melee Mewtwo have with his tail again? And then think about the fact that he has hurtboxes on this said tail, which is pretty big.

IDK man. Mewtwo just lost his major disjoint. Swordsmen and disjointed hitboxes (MK, Marth, Ike, Roy, Zelda, etc) beat him now. Recoveries can now nick the tail when he tries to bair gimp. He's high tier with that big of a tail nerf.

He still has his combos. Hover is great. But his tail took a huge hit. Isn't the oversized tail the original thing people complained about concerning PM Mewtwo? Like, before Emukiller exposed Mewtwo's brokenness with Teleport Hover neutral aerial?

Also, about your comment on overusage of one or two tools that X character has, and how that's so called "unhealthy", ALL Marths use fair as their bread and butter.

ALL Mario's know the benefits of smart usage of Fire balls.

ALL Sonic's overuse and abuse Spin Dash

ALL Snake's know that C4 and landmine are powerful stage control tools, and they'll abuse them.

Heck, Diddy Kong's crazy combos are non existent WITHOUT his bananas.

 

[DMG]

Most of the characters and moves you just listed, are common concerns for gameplay and character design. People bemoan stuff like Mario Fireballs because they went from being supplemental, to basically a top 2 option for nearly any situation. When you make stuff really good on a character, it tends to crowd out other choices and creative ideas that might normally flourish otherwise.


Imagine if Falco had a Dair that didn't beat CC, didn't spike, and was laggy on shield. Instead of doing Dairs, he just replaces them with Lasers. That would be an unhealthy shift in gameplay, despite the character being nerfed. You're forcing players down that path more, instead of possibly nerfing lasers to be supplemental and letting the player try to figure out good Dair usage. Same with Mewtwo: if you make his attacks much shorter or laggier or xyz to be more fair when they are floated or TP'd, you're probably screwing him over in cases when he *isn't* floating or TPing. If the moves kind of suck in neutral, or as standalone attacks, then why wouldn't players focus on his amazing mobility to patch up that weakness? Using nerfed attacks without floating would clearly be inferior to floating them, and you're pushing him towards 1 direction unfairly.


His TP and float should be worse off, but not to the point that they are unviable obviously. You want them to contribute, not overwhelmingly define a character. Regardless of strength, characters should be variable and fun (within their design/personality structures), not leaning so strongly in 1 direction that other options fall wayward. You're not giving a strong case for why Mewtwo should lean so heavily on these mobility options.

 

[JHoLLa]

i dont know if anyone has mentioned this but something i would really really like to see happen to mewtwo is have his air dodge make the upB whoop sound.

 

[Joe73191]

Please don't change Mewtwo. Mewtwo 3.02 is PERFECT. No changes please.

 

[DMG]

Please don't change Mewtwo. Mewtwo 3.02 is PERFECT. No changes please.

WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP

 

[GeZ]

TP should be toned down a bit. M2 is in a good place but TP can make fighting him a bit didactic because the match is largely defined by his WHOOP WHOOP'ing around.

 

[victinivcreate1]

TP should be toned down a bit. M2 is in a good place but TP can make fighting him a bit didactic because the match is largely defined by his WHOOP WHOOP'ing around.

See for matches defined on sound effects.

 

[GeZ]

I know, but in all seriousness, teleport is like a paradigm deal. It's really too much.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I know, but in all seriousness, teleport is like a paradigm deal. It's really too much.

You're a Mario main. You're one to talk XD

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm curious how upset you all would be if mewtwo was "overnerfed" down to mid or even low tier.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm curious how upset you all would be if mewtwo was "overnerfed" down to mid or even low tier.

If Mewtwo was low tier again, oh lord.

Just decrease tail, add hurtboxes to all parts of tail, no more hover after TP, lower weight to 90. Seems fair.

 

[Frost | Odds]

There's a lot of good ways to go about nerfs - that one seems pretty reasonable.

As long as he ends up somewhere slightly south of 'beatable', I'm cool with it. It's pretty much completely impossible to make him as bad as melee, so I think you guys are pretty safe. :<

 

[GeZ]

You're a Mario main. You're one to talk XD

I'm not even kind of a fireball spammer. I wrote the bible on not spamming fireball. I proselytize the emphasis on other aspects of his game to have a more full understanding.

Basically, I aint about dat life.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm not even kind of a fireball spammer. I wrote the bible on not spamming fireball. I proselytize the emphasis on other aspects of his game to have a more full understanding.

Basically, I aint about dat life.

Now thats a true Mario main. You earned my respect.

 

[iamanobody]

i really hope the devs don't make a kneejerk reaction based on this kneejerk reaction.

i don't really want to be involved in the terrible discussion going on here, but i'll use this place to leave my own wishes/opinion.

as it stands, mewtwo is an entertaining character to play. this is the one thing i would like the dev team to consider when deciding what changes to make. it's perfectly possible to balance the character as he is, if any balancing is needed, mostly by adjusting range/statistics. i think the mechanics of the character and playstyle are incredibly entertaining to use compared to the initial rendition of the character, so i would ask that functionality-based changes be kept to a minimum. for example, making mewtwo lighter, changing his range, KO power, or damage, etc. would not make that much of a difference in the way the character plays, but limiting his hover would.

more time may be needed to figure out what really needs to be changed. i see players DIing mewtwo's uptilt and upair like people used to DI marth's fair way back in the day before people learned how to play the game. obviously, marth would be massively overpowered if he could really consistently combo off any hit across the stage into dair("ken combo"), but in reality he can't do that if you DI properly. same goes with mewtwo's uair and fair chains that KO off the top, to an extent.

there are also some aspects about the character that it seems some people have yet to understand and take advantage of yet. for example, emukiller is often frame trapping people by using nair>fair, which won't work for long, and i doubt that many people are aware(and my apologies if i'm wrong, but to the best of my testing this is the case) that hover cancels only work with ONE move per hover, meaning if you try something like what emukiller does with nair>fair in hover the fair is NOT going to be hover cancelled. also, that the second hover attack cancels the hover, unless it's bair(it's been awhile since i tested, but iirc mewtwo can use bair 3 times in one hover for some reason, but other attacks will end the hover).

there is also one point that i don't think people have considered or taken advantage of much yet regarding mewtwo's teleport, which is that after he teleports he is capable of acting but incapable of air dodging. this means that aside from disable, his path to the ground is completely predictable and he is a sitting duck if you force him to teleport high. well, as long as you can beat out his bair, or nair, at least.

furthermore, NO ONE(including m2k and emukiller) is playing mewtwo properly(or, fully) yet. there are so many problems and things that people aren't doing with mewtwo that i don't even know where to begin, the primary examples being ledge camping, creative use of teleport, and use of nair's IASA frames which are probably the easiest IASA frames to hit. combo resets(note RESETS) with hover nair to confusion are another good example.

so, in summary,

1. it would be great if you could preserve mewtwo's playstyle and functionality as much as possible because you've done an excellent job making him a fun, unique character to play(as).
2. there is a wealth of things that have yet to see use and development, and understanding of mewtwo and how to fight him is still too small. people have NOT learned how to exploit many of his strengths and weaknesses yet, or his capabilities in general. unfortunately, i would say he probably has more unexplored strengths than weaknesses by far, though.

i'm not saying he should or shouldn't be nerfed. but i definitely think time should be taken to understand what mewtwo's matchups are actually like so that intelligent changes can be made.

if you are going to nerf him no matter what, as to what could be changed i would say that he is perhaps a little too strong on recovery/the edge and the balance between his KO/combo power and his defensive weaknesses/spacing is a little skewed. for example, melee jigglypuff can do as she pleases in terms of recovery and spacing and is small/hard to hit by nature, but in exchange she doesn't have that much move variety, has no projectile, is very easy to outright KO and aside from rest(which isn't that easy to hit on a good player) doesn't have much KO power. she also isn't that good at building percent to my knowledge, maybe average? i think mewtwo may be lacking in this kind of balance, and personally if there was a nerf to it i would like to see it in the direction of statistics(like KO power, percent building or knockback resistance(kill %)) rather than functionality, as i stated early on. as to his range, i wouldn't complain if there was a nerf to either his hurtbox sizes or his actual attack range for some attacks(or attack startup/recovery), but that will relate more directly to his playstyle so i would rather see others first/prioritized if possible.

ps please fix teleport bugs with double jump please

 

[victinivcreate1]

This^^^^^

Like I said. Making his tail not disjointed, less range, no more Hover (but YES Double Jump) out of Teleport, weight decrease, nair nerf in terms of shield damage. You have a balanced Mewtwo who retains his Hover, acting out of Teleport, and overall buffed attributes compared to Melee. Also, allow us to Teleport through platforms like Melee Mewtwo.

Now if only the PMBR did these things.

 

[SmashBroski]

Shadow Ball to have its ACTUAL Melee SFX.

Are there any SFX mods on BrawlVault with this, by the way?

 

[InfinityCollision]

No hover on teleport approaches makes his aerial game (and thus said approaches) much less safe - fair and dair are -1 iirc if timed perfectly, bair is -4 or -5. Nair is -9 unless you autocancel. That alone is like 90% of what he needs changed.

One change I'm guessing we'll see is a nerf to uthrow kill % in favor of setups into fair or killing off the sides. How big of a nerf this is depends on how exactly they change uthrow.

The only changes I'd look for aside from that are maybe things like a small weight nerf, a tail range nerf (leave the disjoint as is), and/or delay FAF and autocancel frames for nair by like 2 frames. I actually like that he's appropriately heavy now but eh... if putting him in the same weight/fallspeed class as Peach is what it takes then fine. I contemplated the possibility of slowing down aerial teleport by a couple frames in the past, but I'm actually hoping they don't do that now. Hard to say; ideally I'd want teleport approaches to complement his other options rather than replace them or be replaced by them. I'll deal with it either way - Mewtwo was my token low tier in Melee and I'm just enjoying the fact that he's not utter garbage this time around.