Changes you'd like to see in Mewtwo

[Une]

i really hope the devs don't make a kneejerk reaction based on this kneejerk reaction.

i don't really want to be involved in the terrible discussion going on here, but i'll use this place to leave my own wishes/opinion.

as it stands, mewtwo is an entertaining character to play. this is the one thing i would like the dev team to consider when deciding what changes to make. it's perfectly possible to balance the character as he is, if any balancing is needed, mostly by adjusting range/statistics. i think the mechanics of the character and playstyle are incredibly entertaining to use compared to the initial rendition of the character, so i would ask that functionality-based changes be kept to a minimum. for example, making mewtwo lighter, changing his range, KO power, or damage, etc. would not make that much of a difference in the way the character plays, but limiting his hover would.

more time may be needed to figure out what really needs to be changed. i see players DIing mewtwo's uptilt and upair like people used to DI marth's fair way back in the day before people learned how to play the game. obviously, marth would be massively overpowered if he could really consistently combo off any hit across the stage into dair("ken combo"), but in reality he can't do that if you DI properly. same goes with mewtwo's uair and fair chains that KO off the top, to an extent.

there are also some aspects about the character that it seems some people have yet to understand and take advantage of yet. for example, emukiller is often frame trapping people by using nair>fair, which won't work for long, and i doubt that many people are aware(and my apologies if i'm wrong, but to the best of my testing this is the case) that hover cancels only work with ONE move per hover, meaning if you try something like what emukiller does with nair>fair in hover the fair is NOT going to be hover cancelled. also, that the second hover attack cancels the hover, unless it's bair(it's been awhile since i tested, but iirc mewtwo can use bair 3 times in one hover for some reason, but other attacks will end the hover).

there is also one point that i don't think people have considered or taken advantage of much yet regarding mewtwo's teleport, which is that after he teleports he is capable of acting but incapable of air dodging. this means that aside from disable, his path to the ground is completely predictable and he is a sitting duck if you force him to teleport high. well, as long as you can beat out his bair, or nair, at least.

furthermore, NO ONE(including m2k and emukiller) is playing mewtwo properly(or, fully) yet. there are so many problems and things that people aren't doing with mewtwo that i don't even know where to begin, the primary examples being ledge camping, creative use of teleport, and use of nair's IASA frames which are probably the easiest IASA frames to hit. combo resets(note RESETS) with hover nair to confusion are another good example.

so, in summary,

1. it would be great if you could preserve mewtwo's playstyle and functionality as much as possible because you've done an excellent job making him a fun, unique character to play(as).
2. there is a wealth of things that have yet to see use and development, and understanding of mewtwo and how to fight him is still too small. people have NOT learned how to exploit many of his strengths and weaknesses yet, or his capabilities in general. unfortunately, i would say he probably has more unexplored strengths than weaknesses by far, though.

i'm not saying he should or shouldn't be nerfed. but i definitely think time should be taken to understand what mewtwo's matchups are actually like so that intelligent changes can be made.

if you are going to nerf him no matter what, as to what could be changed i would say that he is perhaps a little too strong on recovery/the edge and the balance between his KO/combo power and his defensive weaknesses/spacing is a little skewed. for example, melee jigglypuff can do as she pleases in terms of recovery and spacing and is small/hard to hit by nature, but in exchange she doesn't have that much move variety, has no projectile, is very easy to outright KO and aside from rest(which isn't that easy to hit on a good player) doesn't have much KO power. she also isn't that good at building percent to my knowledge, maybe average? i think mewtwo may be lacking in this kind of balance, and personally if there was a nerf to it i would like to see it in the direction of statistics(like KO power, percent building or knockback resistance(kill %)) rather than functionality, as i stated early on. as to his range, i wouldn't complain if there was a nerf to either his hurtbox sizes or his actual attack range for some attacks(or attack startup/recovery), but that will relate more directly to his playstyle so i would rather see others first/prioritized if possible.

ps please fix teleport bugs with double jump please

people have NOT learned how to exploit many of his strengths and weaknesses yet

lol get the **** out

your stupid character is getting nerfed. end of story. you can consider that a downside of having such bad taste in characters. Liking Mewtwo in PM is the equivalent of liking Morrigan in Marvel.............oh. Wait a second.

BURN THIS CHARACTER TO THE GROUND. YOU CAN DO IT PM BACKROOM. I BELIEVE IN YOU!

Also remove Samus from the game while you're at it. Seriously.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wait, that post got a warning but this one didn't?

I guess I am because the game I play doesn't have everyone apparently broken or OP.
...
Irony brah.
...
Stop talking. You really have no idea......No.

... I fear I shall never understand this place.

Meh. I'm just happy that there appears to be some consensus that significant nerfs are in order. Also probably significant to note that M2 probably will need even more in the way of nerfs than we've thus far consider due to the inbound recovery changes: you think his gimping ability is ridiculous now. :x

 

[Man Li Gi]

Wait, that post got a warning but this one didn't?



... I fear I shall never understand this place.

Meh. I'm just happy that there appears to be some consensus that significant nerfs are in order. Also probably significant to note that M2 probably will need even more in the way of nerfs than we've thus far consider due to the inbound recovery changes: you think his gimping ability is ridiculous now. :x

These complaints are always subdued when a M2 main gets trounced upon by exploiting M2's horrendous close up game (especially if you take away his aerial game). After seeing EMU struggle against DDK in Zenith, I'm convinced that people are overrating M2's overall abilities in the game. People sound so crazy asking/complaining for nerfs on characters that are actually easier to exploit playstyle with. If you really can't beat a M2 main at this point, you just aren't that good then. Almost all M2 mains move in a similar pattern (even if we don't want to admit it). Teleport/Hover-Nair is M2's bnb yet for some reason, people aren't finding good options against it when there are so great counters to it. Of course people instead of finding ways around it (lets face it, it has flaws, but hey be stubborn and don't admit it), they find the need to complain. I only see M2 is 2broken complaints when a M2 wins, but if they lose....not a peep. Characters with armor and/or great OoS options that come out before Teleport Nair can win the game easily over M2.

Obviously the mod on these parts has a kind heart.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I doubt the mods read every single thread, so it could simply be a matter of what does and doesn't get reported.

I've said this before in various places, but Emu is at best a figurehead for the current state of telehover shenanigans. Judging Mewtwo solely by his performance is intrinsically flawed, failing both to acknowledge his weaknesses as a player and any capabilities Mewtwo possesses that go under- or un-utilized in his play.

It then becomes a matter of what level of potential the PMBR perceives in Mewtwo, how hard they nerf him, and how much room they leave him to develop after 3.5.

 

[GeZ]

Infinity Collision giving it to them straight.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If you really can't beat a M2 main at this point

I can, because, as you immediately state:

Almost all M2 mains move in a similar pattern (even if we don't want to admit it)

ie. m2 players currently suck horribly at using all of m2's options. My roommate won our last regional with m2 as a direct result of my coaching - and he'd tell you the same thing. You're an idiot if you're seriously attempting to argue that I don't know the matchup.

I still win half our games, but only because he's godawful at adapting and stoned all the time. If he were motivated and actually consistently tried to improve, I'd never have a chance.

 

[GeZ]

I always see Man Li Gi around these forums making really dumb points. Like I don't follow him or anything but he just shows up in random places talking **** to players who're better worded and reasoned than him.

It's not a good look for him.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I can, because, as you immediately state:


ie. m2 players currently suck horribly at using all of m2's options. My roommate won our last regional with m2 as a direct result of my coaching - and he'd tell you the same thing. You're an idiot if you're seriously attempting to argue that I don't know the matchup.

I still win half our games, but only because he's godawful at adapting and stoned all the time. If he were motivated and actually consistently tried to improve, I'd never have a chance.

If you do know the MU with your character, there shouldn't be too much of a problem. For instance, I see so many players leave lingering hitboxes to protect themselves against Tele-Hover-Nair as that's M2's most stable and staple approach option. I'm not saying that M2 players suck, in fact, most players (not just M2 mains) move in some predictable fashion, but the main thing that separates them among the rest is the way they try and disguise it.

The main way to beat M2 is simply leaving a hitbox present right before they Teleport. I simply told that to someone in the tourney who was struggling with his Charizard and he made it to LSF where he lost to me, but I was then facing a Roy who sounds easy on paper with edgeguarding and all, but the sword and the fact that Charizard guy told him the same advice, I lost 2-1 getting 2 stocked on the last game.

I always see Man Li Gi around these forums making really dumb points. Like I don't follow him or anything but he just shows up in random places talking **** to players who're better worded and reasoned than him.

It's not a good look for him.

Yeah, nah. That isn't even half true, but keep talking on your high horse. Sometimes the reasoning is well thought out, but most are a no. DMG probably had the best reasoning out of anyone here. DMG's analysis and deconstruction was quite profound and detailed, but that would be taking away too much from M2, and completely changing M2's current playstyle to something overall defensive for light skyscraper who doesn't have the best keep away game like Zelda, just isn't appealing nor does it bode well. I mean, look at Melee M2, DMG didn't make it that extreme of a nerf, but it's approaching that level.

_Odds reasoning is "my friend benefitted from my coaching, so obviously the character is the one that's broken" which doesn't sound like a found argument to begin with.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If you do know the MU with your character, there shouldn't be too much of a problem. For instance, I see so many players leave lingering hitboxes to protect themselves against Tele-Hover-Nair as that's M2's most stable and staple approach option.

This is so hilariously naive I see no point in bothering.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This is so hilariously naive I see no point in bothering.

It's not naive at all as Nair is safe on shields and most M2 mains use that as an approach option. Anyway, characters like Snake, DDK, MK, and Roy have the capabilities to leave hitboxes out and cripple M2's offensive game.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's not naive at all as Nair is safe on shields and most M2 mains use that as an approach option. Anyway, characters like Snake, DDK, MK, and Roy have the capabilities to leave hitboxes out and cripple M2's offensive game.

Unless the m2 player has the brains of a half dozen skinned potatoes, and knows how to space or time literally any of his moves, or use shadow balls in any way whatsoever.

 

[GeZ]

To extrapolate, Shadow Ball is intense. It's every a character could want in a projectile. Spaced tail based moves are ****ing bananas and can easily let you outspace your opponent, and then he can incorporate rapid position changing with teleport in tandem with those things to make it a huge mess of one sided gameplay.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Unless the m2 player has the brains of a half dozen skinned potatoes, and knows how to space or time literally any of his moves, or use shadow balls in any way whatsoever.

Hmm, yet all M2's non-telegraphed kill moves are close up and what if you someone who boxes you out just as easily (Pit)? Shadowballs aren't that effective against Snake, MK dodges them easy, and DDK has projectiles of his own. MK has a transcendent sword that can outrange the tail, sometimes. Snake has a strong camp game, much stronger than M2. DDK can be aggro (best option against M2), and can just as easily camp. Roy simply overpowers Mewtwo and has great range too.

To extrapolate, Shadow Ball is intense. It's every a character could want in a projectile. Spaced tail based moves are ****ing bananas and can easily let you outspace your opponent, and then he can incorporate rapid position changing with teleport in tandem with those things to make it a huge mess of one sided gameplay.

Well I could say spaced swords are ****ing bananas and outspace your opponent just as easily. YOu got me there with the rapid position change tho. Shadowball is not that good of a projectile, IMO.

 

[GeZ]

Hmm, yet all M2's non-telegraphed kill moves are close up and what if you someone who boxes you out just as easily (Pit)? Shadowballs aren't that effective against Snake, MK dodges them easy, and DDK has projectiles of his own. MK has a transcendent sword that can outrange the tail, sometimes. Snake has a strong camp game, much stronger than M2. DDK can be aggro (best option against M2), and can just as easily camp. Roy simply overpowers Mewtwo and has great range too.


Well I could say spaced swords are ****ing bananas and outspace your opponent just as easily. YOu got me there with the rapid position change tho. Shadowball is not that good of a projectile, IMO.

I just see Mewtwo as being a character with a lot of really solid tools. More tools than some characters put together. Shadowball isn't necessarily godlike on its own but combined with the rest of his tool kit it can be crazy. The difference I see between the tail and swords is not necessarily themselves but who they're attached to. My problem with Mewtwo is that he has an overly powerful ability to choose his exchanges. He definitely suffers from characters getting up close and personal, but in his element he dictates the flow of the match really well.

Like against snake it's not just his shadow ball you have to think about, but also his reflecting side B and zoning nullifying teleport.

I really like Mewtwo design wise and don't want to see him hamstringed but he seems very above the rest as of now.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Put another way, Marth suffers when people get in close to him too - but he doesn't have a longer range luigi's nair (m2's fair) that gets him out of combos for free up close AND at a distance, or another even faster combo breaker (m2's nair) that doubles as a brawlnado. Nor does he have the ability to teleport around at will, combo all his tilts into all his other tilts, kill with a throw at 100%, or throw a better, slower-moving Samus Charge Shot to guard all of his approaches.

He's also not impossible to gimp like m2, doesn't combo as well as m2, doesn't have nearly as many or as high-quality finishers as m2, and can't infinitely stall on ledges like m2, and has a vastly inferior wavedash to m2.

Oh, it's also much harder to edgeguard with Marth.

And marth is still at the very least a mid or high tier character - almost undeniably better than Roy, who is widely regarded as ineffably balanced.

It blows my mind that mewtwo players think this is okay.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's not naive at all as Nair is safe on shields and most M2 mains use that as an approach option.

But it is not his only option. This is exactly what I was talking about regarding Emu, but applied in a broader context. Why can't Mewtwo autocancel a teleport somewhere else to bait out a counterattack? Why not teleport into attack position, wait a moment upon seeing your counter attempt, then move in with the aerial? Why not teleport into bair? Why not throw out a shadow ball? Why not autocancel directly in front of the opponent? Why not autocancel further away then wavedash in? Why not wavedash/waveland out then teleport back in? Why not teleport somewhere else simply because you can? etc, etc

Because the person holding the controller is not fully utilizing the options at their disposal.

Each individual option may be relatively strong or weak, but if your opponent knows that you both possess and will utilize them then they're forced to make choices about how to react to every single teleport. That is the potential of teleport as an approach tool, not just hover nair. The only reason I have any hope of this lasting past 3.5 launch (minus those options enabled by hover out of teleport) is that consistently autocanceling teleport is difficult outside of a few simple platform techs, and also somewhat predictable insofar as you typically have 0-2 useful options for autocanceling from any given position. Take away or nerf Mewtwo's offensive teleport games and suddenly we're back to Melee Mewtwo, except now he (maybe) has a longer tail and his specials aren't complete garbage.

 

[Abaddon Lord of the Abyss]

Less delay for uair coming out after up+B. I want the teleport to aerial mechanic to be more fluid.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Less delay for uair coming out after up+B. I want the teleport to aerial mechanic to be more fluid.

One troll to rule them all
One troll to find them
One troll to bring them all
And in imbalance, bind them

 

[Man Li Gi]

But it is not his only option. This is exactly what I was talking about regarding Emu, but applied in a broader context. Why can't Mewtwo autocancel a teleport somewhere else to bait out a counterattack? Why not teleport into attack position, wait a moment upon seeing your counter attempt, then move in with the aerial? Why not teleport into bair? Why not throw out a shadow ball? Why not autocancel directly in front of the opponent? Why not autocancel further away then wavedash in? Why not wavedash/waveland out then teleport back in? Why not teleport somewhere else simply because you can? etc, etc

Because the person holding the controller is not fully utilizing the options at their disposal.

Each individual option may be relatively strong or weak, but if your opponent knows that you both possess and will utilize them then they're forced to make choices about how to react to every single teleport. That is the potential of teleport as an approach tool, not just hover nair. The only reason I have any hope of this lasting past 3.5 launch (minus those options enabled by hover out of teleport) is that consistently autocanceling teleport is difficult outside of a few simple platform techs, and also somewhat predictable insofar as you typically have 0-2 useful options for autocanceling from any given position. Take away or nerf Mewtwo's offensive teleport games and suddenly we're back to Melee Mewtwo, except now he (maybe) has a longer tail and his specials aren't complete garbage.

Actually, I wasn't even regarding EMU as I've seen Frozen, Smash G0D (who I first starting seeing it with) and other unknown people use it. EMU simply capitalized and popularized for non M2 mains, but this has been a M2 BnB since day 1 (at least for me and my friends and some other unknowns). To your second and third point, yes a lot of M2 mains do it, but it requires more risk and isn't as safe because that also takes a great read too. Many of your questions come back to "It's not as safe, but is used situationally" which holds true.

Many M2 mains do utilize their character well, and being to tell which option is best for the situation means that the player assessed the situation and decided that option X is the best. Now, I feel that Tele-Hover-Nair is our default approach option and used too much sometimes, but still, it's not like M2 mains don't use any of the situational tactics either.

I'm glad someone is realizing the one true thing that separates Melee M2 and PM M2 is the Tele (which people want nerfed). This explains when TAJ first picked up PM M2 and said "Not much has changed". He wasn't using the new Tele often enough. Now I try my best and do other approaches, but they're just not as great as the BnB we got. In fact, EMU does so well because he used and, possibly even, abused the BnB move to sheer dominance (I guess there's nothing wrong with that as he got 3rd in Zenith and 1st in SKTAR 3 while the others have yet to get that far with M2 sans EVERYCHARACTERILKE2King).

Put another way, Marth suffers when people get in close to him too - but he doesn't have a longer range luigi's nair (m2's fair) that gets him out of combos for free up close AND at a distance, or another even faster combo breaker (m2's nair) that doubles as a brawlnado. Nor does he have the ability to teleport around at will, combo all his tilts into all his other tilts, kill with a throw at 100%, or throw a better, slower-moving Samus Charge Shot to guard all of his approaches.

He's also not impossible to gimp like m2, doesn't combo as well as m2, doesn't have nearly as many or as high-quality finishers as m2, and can't infinitely stall on ledges like m2, and has a vastly inferior wavedash to m2.

Oh, it's also much harder to edgeguard with Marth.

And marth is still at the very least a mid or high tier character - almost undeniably better than Roy, who is widely regarded as ineffably balanced.

It blows my mind that mewtwo players think this is okay.

Put in another way, M2 has inconsistent range problem unlike Marth. Marth's range doesn't suddenly shrink because of X attack. Marth easily outspaces Luigi's nair with U-tilt and other moves. Anyway, your comparison to Luigi's Nair to M2's Fair is flawed as all Nairs share the common trait of having hitboxes all around the character, not in front of the character. I mean I could say that Sheik unfairly outranges M2's Nair, but I won't as that really doesn't make sense....at all as that's SUPPOSED to happen.

Using Nair as a combo breaker... ya'no. Nair doesn't exactly have the range for a combo breaker, but whatever. I can agree that M2 Tele is strong, but isn't it supposed to be? I mean the attack has no hitboxes on it, invincibility doesn't come out until frame 8 (meaning that it's not the best OoS out there), moves a mediocre distance and is really the only thing separating the dreaded Melee M2 from the current one.

Ftilt doesn't really combo well at all, but is used for spacing. Sure, Dtilt combos with utilt, but that was from Melee also. Anyway since we're on Marth, Marth has grabs that combos into smash attacks and tilts easy that lead to easy gimps, but no complaints from you.

Last time I checked, Marth was NEVER a character of tried and true consistent finishers, even in Melee. He had tipped Fsmash, and utilt and tipped Bair but that was it. Marth is character of high mobility that can easily gimp and combo.

M2's uthrow is so easy to DI, I question why that is so relevant. Of course it's going to be strong as M2 has just 3 non committed kill moves (Bair, Fair, and Uthrow). When compared to others who have a killing uthrow (DDK and Lucas), you see M2 pales. DDK has fair, fsmash, dsmash, nair, easily comboed into dair as well as the uthrow. Lucas has easily comboed into usmash (granted it still takes a decent amount of commitment), fsmash, bair, and even fair sometimes. The difference among these 3 is that, M2 is a skyscraper that does get stuck in long combos because of his size and floatiness and his weight and also dies off the top easier because of the aforementioned floatiness.

I would rather take faster projectile, than a slower one. Anyway, Charge Shot is still good.

Hit M2 out of Hover Nair and your problems are solved as aforementioned, no hitboxes on Teleport. M2 is nowhere near the level of no gimps can hurt him. I imagine you exaggerated for the sake of proving your point, but that just isn't true.

OK, I admit. I think M2 is top tier (actually I think 4th place among all characters. 1st is DDK, 2nd Pit, 3rd MK), but that is only based on how people approach the M2 MU. As a M2 main, I see the flaws, but I do understand how daunting of a task it is to play a M2 because you got to be prepared for Teleport tricks and what not.

I just see Mewtwo as being a character with a lot of really solid tools. More tools than some characters put together. Shadowball isn't necessarily godlike on its own but combined with the rest of his tool kit it can be crazy. The difference I see between the tail and swords is not necessarily themselves but who they're attached to. My problem with Mewtwo is that he has an overly powerful ability to choose his exchanges. He definitely suffers from characters getting up close and personal, but in his element he dictates the flow of the match really well.

Like against snake it's not just his shadow ball you have to think about, but also his reflecting side B and zoning nullifying teleport.

I really like Mewtwo design wise and don't want to see him hamstringed but he seems very above the rest as of now.

M2 does have solid tools that could be completely nullified if Teleport cease to exist as it currently stands. Characters with high mobility and a projectile do have the ability to choose exchanges ala DDK and Pit, but unlike those 2, M2 needs spacing to win. His "element" is Mid range, but his kills are close range, so there is a good amount of risk in each exchange, especially when taking a stock is on the M2's mind.

Maybe it's just me here, but if you play on a stage with platforms against M2, tele is just not as important. Hear me out, I mean, if the Snake is regularly applying pressure and there are platforms, M2 is more prone to run into at least 1 of the projectiles. Prof. Pro, in my opinion, did his best on PS2 against M2 mains (really small pool to choose from as there was only EMU and M2K if I recall correctly). Now, I should add the stipulation that M2 only has a weaker presence on platformed stages when he is facing a camper or a run and shoot artist, otherwise, M2 does fine.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Put in another way, M2 has inconsistent range problem unlike Marth

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Having attacks at multiple ranges is not a problem.

Also, fair is waaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger than m2 mains seem to think it is.

 

[GeZ]

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Having attacks at multiple ranges is not a problem.

Also, fair is waaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger than m2 mains seem to think it is.

Nah dude, Mewtwo's biggest flaw is his teleport. Remove it to make him op.

But really, I don't think that Mewtwo's acting out of teleport should be removed, but it should be a bit more limited. Like odds said he can do whatever he wants right now. He definitely flourishes in the mid range but the combination of his WD, and teleport let him chill there/ reset himself to there whenever he's not actively getting attacked.

There is already the gripe from some Melee players that Project M's meta takes focus away from positioning, and Mewtwo's current build is the icing on the WOOP WOOP WOOP (cake).

 

[Abaddon Lord of the Abyss]

I can dream can't I? Psychic energy on his back air to extend range and have invisible hit box? That's balanced right?

 

[Abaddon Lord of the Abyss]

Buff the down+B to make it like Marth's counter but stuns instead of damaging. I've got so many of these

 

[Man Li Gi]

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Having attacks at multiple ranges is not a problem.

Also, fair is waaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger than m2 mains seem to think it is.

Oh yes it is. As a Brawl DK main, Melee M2 secondary, having a character with inconsistent range is annoying to say the least. For DK, arms longer than Marth's sword, but a grab/jab that Squirtle outranges.

Since we're talking about M2 here, the Fair is slightly less than PM Squirtle's Fair. I do know how far the range is. The grab is awful, but I'm OK with that, Nair is short, but any larger, the complaints go up and the Jab...c'mon. For a character that relies on spacing and going aggro with decent distance, having inconsistent range is stupid.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Actually, I wasn't even regarding EMU as I've seen Frozen, Smash G0D (who I first starting seeing it with) and other unknown people use it.

That's actually what I meant by "applied in a broader context". Mewtwo players as a whole have not been forced to advance beyond their current favorite trick, so the community at large has generally failed to do so. Until such a time as said trick is nerfed, the broader Smash community develops and employs effective counter-options, or someone who is paying attention to the full potential of teleport blows other top-level Mewtwos out of the water, it is likely that further advancements will occur and spread at a relatively slow rate due to the perceived sufficiency of known tools. Need drives innovation.

 

[GeZ]

That's actually what I meant by "applied in a broader context". Mewtwo players as a whole have not been forced to advance beyond their current favorite trick, so the community at large has generally failed to do so. Until such a time as said trick is nerfed, the broader Smash community develops and employs effective counter-options, or someone who is paying attention to the full potential of teleport blows other top-level Mewtwos out of the water, it is likely that further advancements will occur and spread at a relatively slow rate due to the perceived sufficiency of known tools. Need drives innovation.

Which is why Mario mains movement and mindgames suffer, which is why Lucas mains conversion and kill game suffer, etc. This is a problem with strong tools in general, and will continue to be until people make it not so.

Players need to be encouraged to find countermeasures rather than cry about it, because if they don't, everyone's play suffers.

 

[victinivcreate1]

TP at the moment is broken. However the fact that you can Hover out of it makes it jank. Nothing else really. Aerial TP into fair is like 28 frames, not counting the jumpsquat frames either. Hover out of Teleport just allows Mewtwo to never commit.

The nerfs that would retain his playstyle, his enjoyability, and make him balanced would be this

1. Weight nerf to 90. CC down tilt at 70% is a thing of the past now. Also means he dies more easily.
2. Ledgewoop limit of 5. After 5 ledgewoops, if he aims at the ledge, he'll miss and SD, like how Ike's Aether ledgestall worked in Brawl. The limit resets itself when Mewtwo has touched the stage for at least 3 seconds. Also, his ledgegrab range is decreased in size, making it harder to consistently ledgewoop. This serves as a partial recovery nerf.
3. No more Hover out of Teleport. However, Mewtwo can still DJ out of TP. DJC aerials were never and never will be broken.
4. Double jump length is shortened. This serves as a recovery nerf.
5. His tail range is shortened, and he no longer has disjoints on it either. This makes his hurtbox rather huge all of a sudden.

As fr your counter arguments

"But autocancel TPs, they're still intact",
That is not broken. First off its difficult to do consistently. Secondly its not even viable on all stages. Its only really viable on mainly 3 stages, which all can be banned, and Dracula's is sometimes reserved for doubles only, making the stagelist even more limited for the Mewtwo main.

His recovery is still guud tho
Its Mewtwo. Its his trademark, besides his forward air.

But the booty grab is still there
Other characters have that too. Snake does, and I believe Marth does too, and I know there's more.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'd also be ok with a weight nerf to like 3 and no other changes

 

[InfinityCollision]

Hurtboxes on the entire tail would have a huge impact on his movement and positioning. It'd be like playing with a "Kick me!" sign on your back the entire game. Hope your moonwalking and stickywalking are up to par... to say nothing of the pain you invite in the air.

Shortening DJ would necessitate proportionally shortening hover.

 

[Man Li Gi]

TP at the moment is broken. However the fact that you can Hover out of it makes it jank. Nothing else really. Aerial TP into fair is like 28 frames, not counting the jumpsquat frames either. Hover out of Teleport just allows Mewtwo to never commit.

The nerfs that would retain his playstyle, his enjoyability, and make him balanced would be this

1. Weight nerf to 90. CC down tilt at 70% is a thing of the past now. Also means he dies more easily.
2. Ledgewoop limit of 5. After 5 ledgewoops, if he aims at the ledge, he'll miss and SD, like how Ike's Aether ledgestall worked in Brawl. The limit resets itself when Mewtwo has touched the stage for at least 3 seconds. Also, his ledgegrab range is decreased in size, making it harder to consistently ledgewoop. This serves as a partial recovery nerf.
3. No more Hover out of Teleport. However, Mewtwo can still DJ out of TP. DJC aerials were never and never will be broken.
4. Double jump length is shortened. This serves as a recovery nerf.
5. His tail range is shortened, and he no longer has disjoints on it either. This makes his hurtbox rather huge all of a sudden.

As fr your counter arguments

"But autocancel TPs, they're still intact",
That is not broken. First off its difficult to do consistently. Secondly its not even viable on all stages. Its only really viable on mainly 3 stages, which all can be banned, and Dracula's is sometimes reserved for doubles only, making the stagelist even more limited for the Mewtwo main.

His recovery is still guud tho
Its Mewtwo. Its his trademark, besides his forward air.

But the booty grab is still there
Other characters have that too. Snake does, and I believe Marth does too, and I know there's more.

I like change 2 so much. I disagree with change 1 as a skyscraper already prone to sucking in attacks like no one's business and being so floaty, M2 already dies off the top easy as is, but now you want him to die horizontally too? Well I think number 4 is going to happen regardless of what I think mainly because PMBR claimed that they're nerfing recoveries. Infinity Collision already addressed number 5. Now, with the shortening of the DJ, I don't think stripping away Hover out of TP is necessary or even needed.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't know that 4 and 5 are needed. His tail especially wouldn't need to be shorter if he lost disjoint imo. Weight and hover out of tp alone seems pretty impactful. Even lowering edgewoop spam just seems like icing on the nerf cake.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'd much rather lose some tail range than the disjoint if it came to that, and the idea of changing both is quite frankly insane. The consequences of a fully hurtboxed tail are immense - it'd potentially give him the largest hurtbox of any playable character and turn him into combo fodder with the way his tail sticks out, not to mention making him completely free if you're behind him. That alone is a massive nerf. If they redid his tail animations to be more like Melee's then it's semi-workable, but still not an idea that I find particularly compelling from a design or play standpoint. There's more to effective balancing than just finding arbitrary ways to adjust a character's capabilities, plus that's a fairly workload-heavy way to go about it since you have to make substantial changes to his animations.

 

[GeZ]

I don't agree with non disjointed tail just because he already gets caught out for having the tail a lot. Like whenever I play against the M2 player in my town as Ganon, I can work Bair into combos just because M2's tail reaches behind me when he's facing away from me (shoutouts to Hungry Headcrab).

It doesn't need to be more janky and easy to mess with. Getting those weird, pass through sweet spot knees is cray already.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Lets face it, if Mewtwo's tail doesn't get a nerf, people will still be salty. So I just decided to fix that. Plus, with as much offensive firepower that Mewtwo has, he should be pretty vulnerable defensively.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Every character should have some things that make people a little salty though. It's when a character has something that makes it ridiculous that it really needs to be hit. I could see making it a little shorter but I don't think even that's super necessary. Most characters have speed or projectiles or their own disjoints or some combo of the three that let them fight M2's tail.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Every character should have some things that make people a little salty though. It's when a character has something that makes it ridiculous that it really needs to be hit. I could see making it a little shorter but I don't think even that's super necessary. Most characters have speed or projectiles or their own disjoints or some combo of the three that let them fight M2's tail.

Wel once Mewtwo starts up airing, you might as well lose. The range is huge and it combos well too. Hover up air (basetail hit) into fair/tipper up air at 70-90% is very potent and very reliable.

 

[Zimflare]

About the bootygrab: I am pretty sure the only characters that CANT do that are Marth and Roy. Someone in the m2 forums said it a while back.

The ideas here seem doable. I have always wondered how they were going to nerf M2 ever since people started freaking out about how broken he is. No matter what they do to him I will be fine because he is so much fun to play as and I mean, he's mewtwo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

About the bootygrab: I am pretty sure the only characters that CANT do that are Marth and Roy. Someone in the m2 forums said it a while back.

Yeah, the m2 forums are perfectly reliable, and are in no way biased or misinformed about anything.

Looking at the character list for a whole 2 seconds would have dispelled this thought if you'd had the slightest inclination to do your research before posting this wildly incorrect conjecture.

 

[Zimflare]

Yeah, the m2 forums are perfectly reliable, and are in no way biased or misinformed about anything.

Looking at the character list for a whole 2 seconds would have dispelled this thought if you'd had the slightest inclination to do your research before posting this wildly incorrect conjecture.

Mmmhmm... you seem to cause trouble in whatever forum you are in.

Anyways, I said "pretty" sure, no need to overreact and try to get wordy on me. But since my conjecture was so wildly incorrect, why don't you give me the privilege to hear your apparent wisdom and share with me the correct conjecture?

 

[GeZ]

Mmmhmm... you seem to cause trouble in whatever forum you are in.

Anyways, I said "pretty" sure, no need to overreact and try to get wordy on me. But since my conjecture was so wildly incorrect, why don't you give me the privilege to hear your apparent wisdom and share with me the correct conjecture?

Odds really isn't a **** poster. He may have said it in a way that didn't suit your fancy but he was just correcting some misinformation that you were spreading, which imo is worse than a little sass.

And he wasn't getting wordy, and you're trying to get wordy in response is bad. You're using really extraneous sentence structure.