Changes you'd like to see in Mewtwo

[MetaKnight0]

calm the **** down lmao I'll post my thoughts later

 

[WizKid911]

Sorry Meta lol. I will be patient. Lol you are sad man li. It was supposed to be argue. You know people make spelling errors. How long did it take you to find those pictures?? Im tired of having to repeat myself and listen to you repeat yours. I didnt feel the need to get into a giant arguement about what mewtwo has and doesnt have. I addressed one issue and more came from that. I could have challenged you about the balance of all of the characters traits but it was unnecessary. I hope youve impressed yourself because..... yuhh know what

 

[Man Li Gi]

Sorry Meta lol. I will be patient. Lol you are sad man li. It was supposed to be argue. You know people make spelling errors. How long did it take you to find those pictures?? Im tired of having to repeat myself and listen to you repeat yours. I didnt feel the need to get into a giant arguement about what mewtwo has and doesnt have. I addressed one issue and more came from that. I could have challenged you about the balance of all of the characters traits but it was unnecessary. I hope youve impressed yourself because..... yuhh know what

You think I was serious about the spelling errors? BAH! I just saw a joke when it was there. And you just admitted that you were just as persistent or a broken record like I was.

Since you didn't want to discuss what M2 has and doesn't have, then you should not make a claim like that then. IF you outlined what M2 has, then it would be a different story. You're correct that I don't want to discuss balancing of all the characters with you as you would probably claim something along the lines of "Roy and Marth's swords are too long, it must be shortened" instead of wanting to buff everyone around that factor.
You ask how long it takes for me to find these pics......like a minute for all three combined. There is this fantastic new thing called a search engine, and simply you type in a phrase and almost like magic, poof, it brings up images similar to what you type in.
I know what about what? At least when I had a statement like that I completed it enough so that you could......You see what your statement just did?

 

[WizKid911]

Ohh sorry I just remembered in the middle of my sentence that I wasnt gonna waste my time anymore.

Edit: And I was tired of having to repeat that I had never said something that you made up in your head to have imaginary leverage in your arguments. You should have researched this conversation

 

[Man Li Gi]

Ohh sorry I just remembered in the middle of my sentence that I wasnt gonna waste my time anymore.

Edit: And I was tired of having to repeat that I had never said something that you made up in your head to have imaginary leverage in your arguments. You should have researched this conversation

I made up that M2's should remove the 2nd and 3rd jump? What sorcery are you conjuring up for this? You "wasted" more of your time by replying my boy, then you edited which took even longer. Nothing about M2's discussion did I make up for the sake of this argument. Leverage? DId I imply leverage? Geez, first I know everything, then I'm dense, then I have leverage, make up your mind. I should've researched this conversation for what? It seems like you just posted a request since you were tired of getting bodied. I at least put analysis and research in the character I main M2, and what you suggested is too extreme for M2 still be considered good.

 

[WizKid911]

A request was not made to remove M2s third or second jump. It was a question if anybody else felt the same. You feel like you know everything, and you are making up leverage from things that I never said. You are dense because you think you are proving a point that was never in place to prove.

 

[MetaKnight0]

ok this thread is hilarious

but here ya go:
mewtwo's weight + double jump creates an uncomfortable position where mewtwo gets

a combination of resilience to throw combos (most throws can't set up on mewtwo because of how heavy he is),
a better crouch cancel (a buff that is accentuated by a ton of new powerful options out of a crouch cancel like confusion, disable, uptilt),
the option to simply trade hits over and over without really thinking about it and convert a decent trade into a good combo without really worrying about how much damage you took in response,
an unexploitable recovery that can get the ledge, the stage, or well above it in the blink of an eye (a trait not shared by similar high survivability characters with good recoveries like peach, samus, ROB, Snake who can all get hit out of their recoveries and either die or take a ton of additional damage)

with these traits in mind frankly it doesnt matter if mewtwo's a big target, he has the best survivability in the game right now. mewtwo can just CC, tank a hit, get a nice dtilt or confusion or w.e, smash the opponent with whatever combo (yes you can combo floaties who the hell said mewtwo has an inherently harder tiime lol), edgeguard them faster and more fierce than anything puff can do owing to a super fast SUNC that resets his double jump or teleport that puts him right back on the stage.

nerfing his weight gets rid of a lot of these undesireable traits that make fighting against mewtwo a drag and focusing him more of a somewhat frail offensive powerhouse with "difficult" approaches rather than someone who can outlive ganondorf and has the recovery of better than puff with the combo game of falcon with "difficult" approaches.

in contrast nerfing his double jump is kind of a lame idea that nukes a lot of the fun momentum based options he gets on double jump and he'd still have a pretty good recovery and would still be able to bully people on stage easily and still be able to gimp effectively with SUNC resets onto the ledge. also the double jump **** ttakes a dubious amount whereas weight is like lol i held down lol i do 70% damage combo cuz im fat

 

[Man Li Gi]

"I mean why even give him a third jump?" Completely ignores this part of his statement> Says he doesn't request/want to remove the 3rd jump and there's no point to be proven. LOL. Since I'm pointing out things about the character I main, I'm so dense and I know everything about Smash at the same time> Logic. I use my experience in playing my character as leverage> who wouldn't? Would you want me to be talking about a character I had little no knowledge of their playstyle and still be vehemently deny your claims? Sure I'm making claims since really your reason for complaining about a character who fundamentally runs on jumps/recovery is because you say it's too good even though the previous iteration had the same situation, but less attention was drawn to that. Of course I'm proving something that didn't need any proof: your complaints are unfounded and silly at best.

MK0, while I do agree that some of his traits like his CC is great/game breaking, but lowering his weight wouldn't help the situation for throw combos as the lighter you are, the more time you have to react to throws. Teleport is not unexploitable, but due to the fact people are unfamiliar with the properties and when the invincibility comes out. The recovery factor is a holdover from the Melee days of M2. M2's survivability off the top is ridiculously bad for a skyscraper, but is great horizontally, but as TKBreezy or TKO said, people in PM don't die, they live forever. Anyway, M2K has been cited in one his interviews, saying that M2 DOES suffer against floaties and is less likely to get combos on floaties while fast fallers and heavies are just combo food. This is the man that loves M2, and he still can easily point that flaw out. M2K outlives Gdorf for the sheer fact of his recovery, not because of the CC game, but yes M2 has a mean combo game like CF. I wonder if they took out the gravity aspect of the Brawl knockback calculation because that could also be a factor as to why M2's CC game is so good (even tho it was good Melee as well).

 

[WizKid911]

You sure that you are 19 cause I feel like im talking to a 10 year old... That was a rhetorical question. I wouldnt wish it on any character to have no third jump. Obvi you didnt read what I said a couple comments after that. "Im not saying take away mewtwos third jump. Im saying reduce the second." who is floaty that can out play mewtwo? I want to say peach cant. Depends on who is playing her. Peach , to me isnt as good as she was in melee. I watched a jiggs(hungrybox) vs M2(M2K) and jiggs got destroyed. Zelda has some good attacks now, I feel like if played right that would be even, but zeldas recovery is outclassed by M2. Im also not sure what SUNC means. I have never heard that term before.

 

[shwickid222]

No ones getting bodied lmfao

 

[standardtoaster]

Enough bickering wizkid and man li gi. If you two want to continue your argument, take it to PMs.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Sure I will.

 

[WizKid911]

Thank you Standardtoaster

 

[WizKid911]

Thank you Standardtoaster

Edit: I still dont know what SUNC means
-_____-

 

[MetaKnight0]

SUNC:
Verb: Super Ultra Ninja Cookies, to teleport onto the edge using Mewtwo's Up B so it cancels much faster.
Synonym: Teleport Cancel
Infinitive: To SUNC
1. I SUNC'd that ***** so hard they moved Mewtwo up in the tier list. - Taj

 

[WizKid911]

-_____- The puckerman? Lol I know the action just never knew it had a term

 

[ManaX]

I would really like to be able to wavedash out of teleport.
Sonics homing attack tracks M2 through it, but doesn't Zeldas.
Which is ridiculous.

 

[WizKid911]

Is that necessarily a bad thing that you cant track zeldas? Youd just blow up when you got to her. Mewtwo can be played like a fortress. Sometimes its difficult to get inside against M2. I feel like if you changed how quickly he can react out of teleport then that will change one of the possible advantages other characters have therefore pushing him towards being OP. Being able to read that teleport because of the very tiny window of vulnerability is key to being able to attack him. Although that would be an awesome thing to be able to do. I Think it would drastically change approach/mindgames with M2, but its too much in my eyes

 

[ManaX]

If you short hop teleport, you should be able to airdodge.
I don't see how that's op.

 

[ComposedJam]

Because people already complain about being able to jump or do attacks out of teleport. If you gave him the ability to also AD (which i think would be OP personally) Mewtwo haters all around wouldn't rest till he was nerfed. he honestly does not need an AD out of his teleport though, it is already good enough.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Tis a sad truth that people think M2 is 2 good already, so an AD as of yet is not plausible.

 

[ThreeSided]

My group just hates the tail. I gimp them all to death with Bair regularly. They're perfectly cool with everything else. It's just that damned bair. Not being fully disjointed is irrelevant when it comes out too fast for them to counter with an aerial. I just carry them off the stage until they can't come back, lol.

 

[Man Li Gi]

People always complain.....Jiggs.

 

[Nemy]

If you short hop teleport, you should be able to airdodge.
I don't see how that's op.

It's not needed. While teleport is big part of Mewtwos movement and offensive game, its still a recovery. Using a recovery is traditionally supposed to leave you vulnerable. We can already attack out of it. Adding an airdodge would give us ANY option out of TP. We would be able to wavedash out TP, allowing us to TP>wd>TP>wd etc. That does seem a little OP for my liking. Besides, we can essentially get the same result through other means, it just takes some creativity.

One of my favorite things about this character is that you can instantly see the difference between a good and a bad/average player just by the way they use TP. Short hop TP horizontal to get the 5 frame landing lag(?)/autocanel. Floating from horizontal TP. We have so many options already. As for short hop>TP vertical, I think its fair that we dont retain AD. If we could, all would have to do is TP horizontal>double jump>wd.TP already has so much potential. It's not needed.

 

[ManaX]

People are just mad he floats.
I can seriously ledge cancel an aerial miles from the edge because of how slippery he is.

 

[Based Gob]

I know this is unrealistic but I'd like mewtwo to be strong because of his psychic abilities not because of his tail. I think that would make him way cooler and perhaps more balanced.

 

[WizKid911]

I actually like that idea. In pokemon he wasnt walking around smacking everybody with his tail lol. But at the same time he has had that moveset for so long. It wont be changed so drastically

 

[Man Li Gi]

M2 has 5 tail attacks. 4 of which people believe are critical to his meta (Uair, Bair, Utilt, Dtilt). Now, I wish that a psychic attacks could replace the Ftilt, and could possibly change the animation of the Bair.

 

[Doctor Pink]

I just want his tail length doubled and for all of his tail normals to be able to Tether, so he could finally be viable. If he had a tether, he'd actually be able to recover sometimes. Is that so much to ask for?

 

[Man Li Gi]

My god, if they did that, there would no end of "M2 is OP". Even I think that is too strong for M2.

 

[Doctor Pink]

Mewtwo needs many buffs, the ones I suggested are simply the most necessary

 

[Man Li Gi]

Considering how M2 fares with fast-fallers, heavies, and people with overall less range and maneuverability than him, I don't know if buffs are necessary.

 

[TheBirdSolution]

Part of me kinda misses his old Melee F-Throw. Mainly because of the animation if I'm honest, rather than it actually being useful. Compared to his B-Throw and his U-Throw, the other two throws don't really see the light of day much.

I do think his Shadow Ball charge hitbox should be a tad bigger. And Disable's as well, is it just me or does it have half the range it used to? I know that could be down to the smaller size of alot of Brawl characters, but still.

 

[victinivcreate1]

My nerfs for Mewtwo

Nerf weight to like 90-93.

Decrease bair and ftilt range.

Spotdodge laggier in general.

Thats it. Mewtwo doesn't have a 0-death on anyone besides space animals, and even then, the first 65-70 percent is only practically guaranteed. Afterwards, its basi DI reads. Mewtwo does have a tougher time vs floaties, swordsmen, and faster characters like Pikachu and Squirtle.

I have a feeling that the only reason why people are calling Mewtwo broken is because Emukiller at SKTAR 3. Armada was rusty, Mew2King admitted to not using Mewtwo's tricks to the full extent in an interview, ESAM and Emukiller's matches were fairly close, Rolex was not used to fighting a Mewtwo who actually made usage of everything, and Professor Pro, who actually had the right idea in how to beat Woopnair (Jump Cancelled Cypher OoS ) stopped doing it for some reason, and it was working too. Pro also did a lot of things right in countering Woop but he stopped after Game 1.

 

[Man Li Gi]

NO. People were claiming M2 was broken beforehand (heck, just look earlier in this thread and see the time stamps), but Emukiller may have just been the last straw for some people to use.

Anyway, I could live with those nerfs.

 

[victinivcreate1]

NO. People were claiming M2 was broken beforehand (heck, just look earlier in this thread and see the time stamps), but Emukiller may have just been the last straw for some people to use.

Anyway, I could live with those nerfs.

Classic Armada effect. TBH before Emukiller, they had no real basis off their argument. But this isn't the thread to debate it.

 

[Zero May Cry]

I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting nerfs for Mewtwo after Emukiller. I think it's a good thing that Emukiller showed us a lot more of what Mewtwo can really do because now we have an idea of what needs to be fixed/nerfed about that character. I mean, how else would we know a character needs nerfing outside of seeing someone do well with it? Anyway, here are a couple of nerf ideas for Mewtwo that I got from watching my friend (who's won a few local tournies, and I play him a lot) and Emukiller.

1. No more floating after up-b teleport. Mewtwo's teleport is fast enough, and allowing M2 to float after that just allows for him to have way too many safe options. Watch Professor Pro vs. Emukiller at SKTAR 3 and you'll see what I mean. Emukiller likes to abuse teleport to float nair for shield pressure that is extremely difficult for Prof to punish without putting himself in a disadvantageous position. Some characters literally have no response for this. You don't even have to use float nair- you can just do something like float fair to shield stab and then get a combo (my friend does this a lot) and if it doesn't work Mewtwo is still safe. There aren't many (any?) other characters that can do something like that this well, and this unpunishably. Keep in mind that I don't think that Mewtwo shouldn't be able to act out of teleport - I just think that he shouldn't be able to float out of it. That's all. This kinda brings me to my next point.

2. Slower air to air teleport / ground to air teleport. These teleports are just too fast. They're unreactable, and just allow Mewtwo to get in and close space with near impunity. Especially with being able to float after the ground to air teleport. My main issue is just the huge advantage Mewtwo gets being able close space that quickly and get in the opponent's face and then be quite difficult to punish. A slower teleport would make Mewtwo players think more about teleporting to close space since that action would be much more punishable, but rewarding if done at the right time.

Criticism on my ideas or any general comments are welcome.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I think people have yet to find an appropriate CP for M2... yet. Professor Pro was on the right track as Emu was becoming quite predictable with the pressure game and the teleports. From my experience I find that M2 struggles with Link, Snake, KD3, Roy, Marth, and a few others.

Zero, how slow are we talking here? Zelda slow?

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting nerfs for Mewtwo after Emukiller. I think it's a good thing that Emukiller showed us a lot more of what Mewtwo can really do because now we have an idea of what needs to be fixed/nerfed about that character. I mean, how else would we know a character needs nerfing outside of seeing someone do well with it? Anyway, here are a couple of nerf ideas for Mewtwo that I got from watching my friend (who's won a few local tournies, and I play him a lot) and Emukiller.

1. No more floating after up-b teleport. Mewtwo's teleport is fast enough, and allowing M2 to float after that just allows for him to have way too many safe options. Watch Professor Pro vs. Emukiller at SKTAR 3 and you'll see what I mean. Emukiller likes to abuse teleport to float nair for shield pressure that is extremely difficult for Prof to punish without putting himself in a disadvantageous position. Some characters literally have no response for this. You don't even have to use float nair- you can just do something like float fair to shield stab and then get a combo (my friend does this a lot) and if it doesn't work Mewtwo is still safe. There aren't many (any?) other characters that can do something like that this well, and this unpunishably. Keep in mind that I don't think that Mewtwo shouldn't be able to act out of teleport - I just think that he shouldn't be able to float out of it. That's all. This kinda brings me to my next point.

2. Slower air to air teleport / ground to air teleport. These teleports are just too fast. They're unreactable, and just allow Mewtwo to get in and close space with near impunity. Especially with being able to float after the ground to air teleport. My main issue is just the huge advantage Mewtwo gets being able close space that quickly and get in the opponent's face and then be quite difficult to punish. A slower teleport would make Mewtwo players think more about teleporting to close space since that action would be much more punishable, but rewarding if done at the right time.

Criticism on my ideas or any general comments are welcome.

As for point 1

If you paid closer attention to Prof vs Emu, you would have seen that game 1 Prof was wrecking him. He was placing hitboxes in front and behind him, and using Up B OoS to beat hover nair. Eliminating float after TP isn't the issue. Because guess what, Mewtwos will stop doing that, just hover up to you and nair. And it'll still be shieldstabbing, and it'll still be safe. The better way to correct this is by making nair have either: A-each stun does half the shieldstun, B-there are more frames between each hitbox of nair, C- making it laggier, or D- make the final hitbox of nair (akak the part that Emu aimed to shieldstab) not be able to shield stab.

As for point 2
There are two many things in this game that aren't reactable. Shines, Zelda's dsmash, Marth's Reverse Dolphin Slash, Snake's Cypher, MK's entire ground game (lol the average attack for his ground game is like frame 4 lmao), and his neutral air, etc. Making TP slower won't solve the problem either. TBH most of the "Shootin' Star" combos involving fair then Teleport into another fair don't even exist in terms of hitstun, unless you're Fox/Falco/Wolf. You just get hit by the moves because you gave up. You're letting the Mewtwo hit you essentially.

IMO Mewtwo's main problems are his nair, weight (he can get huge combos off a cc dtilt, and a near guaranteed fair that KOs if the foe DIs upwards) and his tai size. Decrease range of tail, pick one of the four options to nerf nair, and decrease his weight to say 90-93 and he's fine. The thing about Mewtwo in 3.02 is that he's broken, but he's not obviously broken. It took us 6 MONTHS to actually realize he's broken. His brokeness comes from a combination of things that when put together, make a broke character. He's not like MK in Brawl, where his speed was the primary factor that made him broke (cuz lets face it, there were characters that had better recoveries, grabs, etc).

 

[Zero May Cry]

Nah, not Zelda slow. Know how Mewtwo has that spin sorta animation when he teleports onto the ground from the ground or air and it causes him to have some recovery to his teleport? I think he should have that lag in his air to air telepot. Know what I mean? I think that would be pretty fair.

victinivcreate1, you present some pretty good points that I can get on board with. I thought about M2's nair maybe being nerfed and maybe even making his tail size smaller, but I was kinda afriad to say that since I thought I would just hear a bunch of "but it was like that in melee and M2 was low tier in that game" lol. I agree with what you say about nair, his tail size, and weight. Nair is too good at shield stabbing and being safe (esp. with float) and you pretty much nailed it with your nair nerf ideas. Same with weight, as he gets some pretty great crouch cancel options and then can dtilt x2 > utilt x3 out of a simple crouch cancel. Can you talk about why you think his tail size should be nerfed though? You didn't quite elaborate on that.

I think getting rid of float after teleport would still be a good nerf since it would keep players from applying simple, quick shield pressure from a distance. If they're gonna float nair, then they're gonna have to get (float?) into your face, and at least that's a little more difficult to do. Also really like your point about him not being obviously broken. I think that's why people defend Mewtwo as is now.