DJRome
Smash Hero
lol u always bring up these two names. i suppose we should always mention outliers to make a statistically significant conclusion. o wait, that'd make me the dumbest person ive ever known including 12000 *******
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Carolina Brawl Power Rankings [1/27] Breaking Bad PRs!! YAY!
- Thread starter stingers
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stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol you have more movement options in melee yeah but less options after u get hit.
in melee, because offense is so strong it's inevitable that you will get hit. in brawl it's different. this leads to a more boring game arguably but I find it much more challenging.
i think if we were talking perfect play then melee would be more difficult because maybe you'd have stronger defensive options. but in all reality brawl is harder...thus I find it more competitive. because nobody has yet to explain to me (honestly curious) what else besides complexity can make something more competitive. I guess you could argue that brawl being boring makes it less competitive...lol
in melee, because offense is so strong it's inevitable that you will get hit. in brawl it's different. this leads to a more boring game arguably but I find it much more challenging.
i think if we were talking perfect play then melee would be more difficult because maybe you'd have stronger defensive options. but in all reality brawl is harder...thus I find it more competitive. because nobody has yet to explain to me (honestly curious) what else besides complexity can make something more competitive. I guess you could argue that brawl being boring makes it less competitive...lol
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
I thought that tech skill was more important than mental skill in Melee? At least that's what is implied.
@DJ
There's more than those two. Even if its small it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Even m2k admitted that Jigglypuff planking is broken in melee. Also, what conclusion would that be? Because I've been told that Melee defense>>>>>>>>>>>>Brawl defense
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
M2K also thinks MK is number 3 in brawl LOOOOOL
Your opinion sucks. about almost everything. You are wrong about everything. Its bad, You should Feel bad.
who told you melee defense > brawl defense?
stingers
Smash Obsessed
i dont think m2k thinks that lol
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
Tech skill is important to have, but it is not what separates players. It is safe to say that all competent competitive melee players share the fact that they are all competent with their tech skill.
Now if everybody is competent with their tech skill then unless there is another element to this game, all of these matches are going to be really close because everybody has tech skill and they just run into each other and combo, right? This isn't SSB64, and simply increasing your tech skill to have the best tech skill will NOT be enough to edge your opponents out. If anything it will wear you out more.
It is all about the experience and the mindgames that separate players apart. Everybody shares the ability to be technical on a competent level, but EVERYONE is different behind the controller. People have different strats, different levels of experience, and it is those differences that decide a match, not whose fingers are moving the fastest, because they are all moving the fastest.
Nope.
"Just because someone is Pro at melee doesn't automatically make them Pro at brawl. Brawl and Melee are two different games. Some pro's were only pros in melee because of the technical aspects." -Ken
Okay I think I'm done posting in this topic lol
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
Ive seen him post time and time again on FB that diddy kong is the best, Then recently he post that falco is the best.
So either way Mk Isnt the best in his eyes, and that alone makes his opinion on everything from melee to what i should order at subway totally invalid.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
when did he post either of those on fb...ive been his fb friend for awhile and I don't
remember.
like he thinks diddy beats mk (or thought, idk if he still does) but im pretty sure he still thinks mk is #1
remember.
like he thinks diddy beats mk (or thought, idk if he still does) but im pretty sure he still thinks mk is #1
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
I didn't say just because somebody is pro at melee doesn't automatically make them pro at Brawl. I acknowledge Brawl and Melee are two different games with two different sets of skill. I'm just saying that if EVERYBODY is technical, then NOBODY has an advantage from it because EVERYONE has it! Ken says that some pros were only pros because they were technical, but honestly, that's not true. Pros are defined as pros for a reason. They stand above everyone else from a different factor. Anybody can pick up Melee and be technical. All the top players outplayed each other with their minds, not their fingers. Ken would wreck any stupid Fox that came his way. Some characters ARE more technical than others but ultimately in the BIG picture, those tech junkies will always PLACE, but they'll never WIN. MINDGAMES win.
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
His status after Gnes won dallas was something like "LOL Gnes wins dallas Diddy is the best does anyone believe me now?"
Alex please dont make me go all the way back for that status :/
oh and about falco, it was sometime after my birthday.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol okay. yes you need to outsmart ur opponent to win in melee (generally anyways...). I never said anything different. however the point im making is you don't have to outsmart them as much. like for some random example lets just say like every time you outsmart someone in game x you get 1 point. and everytime you outsmart someone in game y you get 5 points. and you need 10 points to win. game y is easier to win in because you only need to outsmart them twice instead of 10 times. it's like htat.
edit: @dylan ***kin do it
edit: @dylan ***kin do it
DJRome
Smash Hero
yes, and what does that matter? is brawl a game centered around ike metagame? i fail to see any point you make.
V1CE
Smash Champion
just pretend he doesnt exist...
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
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- 6,937
loooooooooooooooooooooooooool
ummm m2k def believes mk is still the best.
ummm m2k def believes mk is still the best.
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
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- 6,937
lol well alright. basically, melee competition is more reflex-based, while brawl competition is more mental-based. obviously there is a lot of overlap in both (you can't play melee without thinking haha) but i'd say it's like 40mental-60reflex in melee and 60mental-40 reflex in brawl.
this results mainly from hitstun and edgeguarding...in melee, when you're looking to get a hit in, whats your goal? to combo off it, right? get them offstage and kill them early or combo into a kill. however, when you land a hit in melee, you KNOW you have a followup. it's a lot easier on the brain, for example, for a marth to just think "alright, I landed a uthrow on fox at 40%, so I have to watch what direction they go in and turn around accordingly before utilting so I can utilt again" (for example). compared to in brawl, in that same situation, you have "alright, I landed a uthrow, now I have to watch what direction they go in AND guess what they're going to do next (the fox could shine an attempted tipper uair to push himself out of range, or airdodge past it, or jump again). there is no 'guaranteed', so you have to account for more options.
many people say melee is more difficult because of the tech skill barrier required to become proficient at it. also many people think melee is more rewarding because the game rewards you for overcoming this barrier (seamless movement and comboing). while I think the rewards part is up to interpretation (personally I find landing a good string in brawl much more rewarding, but I can see why people would prefer melee's system), the 'tech skill' barrier in melee only serves to alienate. I don't see a reason why people need to learn to hit L every time they land for example, what strategy does that add to the game? it's just a meaningless 'barrier' that you need to overcome in order to even compete.
i guess what it comes down to is brawl is harder because you have to think more. you'll never become physically exhausted from playing melee, but u can damn sure become mentally exhausted while playing brawl. there are ways around it in brawl ofc...but i consider it cheap to play like that
You win this thread.
and shady's right
melee players orgasm when falco does a shine to back air... like it's been ten years, why is that still so impressive? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
i think skill gaps are very important for a competitive game...
if one person puts more effort into a game he should be rewarded with results that show his dedication...
a hypothetical example of this would be a fighting game where button mashing is the metagame
if player x spends 6 months playing this said game only to run into somebody who just started but knows about this button mashing strat, and the results of their matches are failry even, then i would say this game sucks competitively
i know brawl isnt like this at all, but melee has larger skill gaps than brawl does, which in my opinion makes it better competitively.
this may be partly due to tech skill but so be it, anything that separates one player from another helps the competitive nature of the game...
if one person puts more effort into a game he should be rewarded with results that show his dedication...
a hypothetical example of this would be a fighting game where button mashing is the metagame
if player x spends 6 months playing this said game only to run into somebody who just started but knows about this button mashing strat, and the results of their matches are failry even, then i would say this game sucks competitively
i know brawl isnt like this at all, but melee has larger skill gaps than brawl does, which in my opinion makes it better competitively.
this may be partly due to tech skill but so be it, anything that separates one player from another helps the competitive nature of the game...
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
also randomness only hurts competition...
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
Eddy Gordo
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
http://game-central.org/2009/editorials/what-makes-a-competitive-game/
this is a really good read imo
doesnt really support my opinion but says some good stuff
strays a little off topic when talking about professional competition but then gets back to good the good stuff
this is a really good read imo
doesnt really support my opinion but says some good stuff
strays a little off topic when talking about professional competition but then gets back to good the good stuff
stingers
Smash Obsessed
@fiz, I think hard work is useful in that it gives experience.
if a person who had never played the game before comes into smash with a really good mindset and has a really good understanding of the game, he is limited in melee due to the tech skill barrier. not so much brawl, but of course there's a beginning tech skill barrier with that too.
generally, peoples understanding of the game increases as they play it more, but if someone 'gets' it from the get-go, why should they be limited?
if a person who had never played the game before comes into smash with a really good mindset and has a really good understanding of the game, he is limited in melee due to the tech skill barrier. not so much brawl, but of course there's a beginning tech skill barrier with that too.
generally, peoples understanding of the game increases as they play it more, but if someone 'gets' it from the get-go, why should they be limited?
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
i guess you could think of it like an initiation to a frat or something...
with the tech skill barrier, one cant simply be good from day 1 even if they have a great mind for it...
so what must they do?
practice
which shows that they care enough to put ample time into the game and are dedicated to getting better...
you prolly also wont just up and leave on a whim if you have this time already invested...
makes for a better community imo
note: this is off topic from the "which game is more competitive" conversation and is highly biased
with the tech skill barrier, one cant simply be good from day 1 even if they have a great mind for it...
so what must they do?
practice
which shows that they care enough to put ample time into the game and are dedicated to getting better...
you prolly also wont just up and leave on a whim if you have this time already invested...
makes for a better community imo
note: this is off topic from the "which game is more competitive" conversation and is highly biased
stingers
Smash Obsessed
i dunno seems kind of backwards to me...like if they already understood everything why would they practice? it's like, why study for a test you already know all the material on?
nobody actually knows everything just coming in of course, but this is all hypothetical anyway
nobody actually knows everything just coming in of course, but this is all hypothetical anyway
DJRome
Smash Hero
the tech skill adds a sport component. coaches in sports can craft all day, but they are no athletes. a good athlete needs to have finely honed mental and physical game. i guess it's the difference between chess and soccer or something
stingers
Smash Obsessed
at the end of the day execution will always be key. of course that applies to all video games no matter what kind of game they are...i think the chess/soccer analogy is fairly apt
but yeah this is so far off from my original point lol.
but yeah this is so far off from my original point lol.
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
Sometimes the best and most enjoyable competitive games are simple ones. Adding unneeded layers of complexity so that people will have to practice for the sake of practice is just silly.
I mean, just look at ping-pong. As long as a game is reasonably balanced (i.e. no crooked rules nor game-breaking elements) and has room for people to be clearly better than one another, it can be competitive.
It's not like ping-pong would be more competitive if the tables became smaller and hitting out-of-bounds became easier as a result. This would add an extra layer of difficulty to the game which would require more practice, but it wouldn't be inherently better. Some people might enjoy the smaller tables more while others might be alienated and not try to get good at the game in the first place.
As long as a game doesn't have inherently uncompetitive elements, how competitive a game will be is pretty much determined by the players (thus making "competitiveness" a highly subjective and biased subject for the most part).
I mean, just look at ping-pong. As long as a game is reasonably balanced (i.e. no crooked rules nor game-breaking elements) and has room for people to be clearly better than one another, it can be competitive.
It's not like ping-pong would be more competitive if the tables became smaller and hitting out-of-bounds became easier as a result. This would add an extra layer of difficulty to the game which would require more practice, but it wouldn't be inherently better. Some people might enjoy the smaller tables more while others might be alienated and not try to get good at the game in the first place.
As long as a game doesn't have inherently uncompetitive elements, how competitive a game will be is pretty much determined by the players (thus making "competitiveness" a highly subjective and biased subject for the most part).
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
Shady wins........Flawless Victory.
Now I don't have to post anything
Now I don't have to post anything
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
hmmmm, after some thought i think it would become more competitive lol
think bowling
bumpers and gutters equally competitive?
i think not
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
About the MLG poll thing. It was made by a regular user, and brawl was put on by mistake. Why vote on it
"After I made the poll I realized I should have put melee,"
"After I made the poll I realized I should have put melee,"
DtJ SmithZzz
Happy Birthday Kjell
stingers
Smash Obsessed
i was just playing with mjg on wifi earlier today. he wouldnt use tl though =[ his tl is soooooooo ****
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
- Messages
- 6,937
i would agree with this if melee didnt have a 8 year leap on brawl.
u cant compare the two unless they both started at the same time cause we dont know how far the skill gap for brawl will grow.
brawl is only on it's 2nd year, the game is still new.
and wow, lol good post shady.
DtJ SmithZzz
Happy Birthday Kjell
Who'd he use Stingers?
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
The vid was good but The Creativity is still by far the best TL combo vid ever
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
a broken strat could be figured out tomorrow in melee and make brawl the more competitive game
somebody could find a movement glitch in brawl 4 years from now that adds layers of intricacies and depth and makes brawl more competitive game
we can only judge them on how they are atm
so i guess we agree?
stingers
Smash Obsessed
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
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This kinda contradicts what u said earlier, but i see where u are going.a broken strat could be figured out tomorrow in melee and make brawl the more competitive game
somebody could find a movement glitch in brawl 4 years from now that adds layers of intricacies and depth and makes brawl more competitive game
we can only judge them on how they are atm
so i guess we agree?
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Nah, mang, we'll all be quitting Brawl and Melee for Marvel vs. Capcom 3.
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