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knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Oct 20, 2005
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realistically everything is a mixup..you moved forward, if opponent swings you get hit, you dash back to dodge it..if they overshot or used a higher range move you still got hit. if they jus tmoved forward you lost space. The goal is just to make sure your char/strategy has the best mixups and to also make baits (technically mixups as well, but with the intention of making your opponent swing poorly so that he does what you want and plays only those mixups that you want him to play. You can also restrict his movement and options to try to limit which mixups he can play successfully. Or you can just pick his char for him and limit him that way;p

anyway, strong zoning/spacing issues often help some matchups be less impacted by mixups. Yes, technically vs jiggs, i am often reading whether she will move forward or backwards with her shorthop..but I find that how well i am placing my fairs has a lot more impact on my win chance than the actual read. Though if i zone out and play stupid aggro I will run into a wall of bair pretty fast
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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@ Bones: By "cross up" I don't mean going through and past a shield with nair. I mean nairing into people who are running or short hopping forward. You'll hit characters who are at the peak of their short hop with this out of most aerials. The reason why I like this more than spaced fair in some cases is because the prolonged hitbox lets me guestimate my opponent's positioning, whereas with fair you need more precision. Furthermore, fair spaced sometimes requires you to move backwards, which precludes following up your hit in some cases.

Summary: I use nair forward to read and punish movement without committing to slightly laggier moves like f-tilt or f-smash. I use it instead of grab in some cases because nair provides more direct results in some matchups at some percents and also I like to mix up my neutral game as much as possible.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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@ Bones: By "cross up" I don't mean going through and past a shield with nair. I mean nairing into people who are running or short hopping forward. You'll hit characters who are at the peak of their short hop with this out of most aerials. The reason why I like this more than spaced fair in some cases is because the prolonged hitbox lets me guestimate my opponent's positioning, whereas with fair you need more precision. Furthermore, fair spaced sometimes requires you to move backwards, which precludes following up your hit in some cases.

Summary: I use nair forward to read and punish movement without committing to slightly laggier moves like f-tilt or f-smash. I use it instead of grab in some cases because nair provides more direct results in some matchups at some percents and also I like to mix up my neutral game as much as possible.
SHFFLing nair forward may cover more of your opponent's spacings, but if you were wrong about them SHFFLing at you, pretty much anything else they do will destroy you. Nair is just way too susceptible to DD grab, CCCs, and FH aerials. Maybe if your opponent is trapped by the ledge at high % and you just want to close space as you approach him at the ledge, then I guess that would be pretty good, but that's really specific and not all that effective compared to the usual alternative of staying on the ground and abusing all of Marth's good stuff (dtilt, grab, DD, WD). I used to approach with all sorts of aerials as Marth, but after so much time trying to force his aerials into working, I kind of just accepted that they don't. I will occasionally SH forward with the threat of late fair/uair, but that's about it. Everything else (when not fading away) just gets whooped by DD grab and OoS punishes. *shrug*
 
D

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even fade aerials give up stage area, something you really don't want to do unless forced to because marth wins by aggression.

marth is not a mix-up character. largely speaking, smash is not a mix-up game.

i think i can hear mahie in turmoil from france from all of the strategic jank in this thread lol
 
D

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the only characters where you can kind of justify mix-ups are the ones with the highest reward per the lowest risk to doing it. this means that the character has to have a reason to forego a more reliable strategy, have something highly rewarding with low situational opportunity, and not be punished too badly for it. given how good marth/falcon's reliable strategies are, how non-malleable their harshest punishments are, and how poor they both are defensively, they might be two of the worst characters at mix-ups in the game.

to clarify, the latter two parameters are fundamentally less important than the first of foregoing a more reliable strategy. the short version of this is that better characters should never really go for mix-ups unless forced to because they are more strategically sound in a relative way. even then, you need a very justifiable reason to go for them as a crappy character because it's usually better to just play a tight neutral game to minimize risk.

For a better explanation of this idea on a conceptual level, go to my thread for Drastic Improvement and go to the Strategy Evaluation section.

http://smashboards.com/threads/drastic-improvement.311129/
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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can you give a specific example of a mixup you consider useless for those characters? is it all mixups you're against?

I doubt you would argue that mixups in your overall scheme of "optimal" strategies are unnecessary if it meant applying basically the same strategy without becoming predictable(using timing and spacing mixups comes to mind as an example.)

Would write more but I'm curious about what you think.
 
D

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i'm against the use of mix-ups when a better alternative is unquestionably better. in the event that there is no better alternative, i would say to go for the mix-up when it is low risk or you have a very strong positional advantage (basically the same thing if you're paying attention). if there is no better alternative to the mix-up, and you do not have an overwhelming advantage to do the mix-up that would make it almost guaranteed, you should stop and re-establish position instead. this prevents you from giving your opponent any method to interact favorably with you.

for an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHgyZJjNkl8&t=5m43s

this nair into no-man's land was either to cover fox's high ledge options or a mistake (it was a mistake regardless). this is the kind of stuff you don't want to do basically ever. you have a better alternative (waiting), it's high risk (you get ***** for it...err, he "interacts favorably with you") and you could have simply established a better position and kept the fox pinned at the edge and just ***** him back.

i can't believe i almost watched 5 awful minutes of your fox dittos to find that.
 

Dr Peepee

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LMFAO why you picked anything in that video is beyond me. That video IS hilarious though so good choice.

I mean yeah I did something stupid there, and I guess that means that your message here isn't so much about splitting hairs on what a good choice is for a situation so long as you're taking a large amount of risk-reward into it.

I'd have more fun with this discussion if we went through things I did well or didn't get punished for or things I could argue were also good choices and we decided whether those mixups were "good" or not.
 
D

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LMFAO why you picked anything in that video is beyond me. That video IS hilarious though so good choice.

I mean yeah I did something stupid there, and I guess that means that your message here isn't so much about splitting hairs on what a good choice is for a situation so long as you're taking a large amount of risk-reward into it.

I'd have more fun with this discussion if we went through things I did well or didn't get punished for or things I could argue were also good choices and we decided whether those mixups were "good" or not.
pull some of them up so i can shoot you down? i just went to youtube and punched in "DR PEEPEE IS A BRO" and set the results from the past month. if you have something better that isn't you vs armada i'll go through it with you.
 

Dr Peepee

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Does it have to be me LOL

I hate most of my current videos.

Uhhhh.....wait why does it have to be vs not-Armada anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm2LKbO5evot=2m43s

Okay so the decision to DD shield/Bair.....not a common one in the Falco ditto and yet I responded to Mango coming out of the corner with DD instead of laser which is definitely considered sub-optimal in the matchup.
 

oukd

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if mango kept shielding you would probably get wrecked for that bair <_< most notably in that mango tilted his shield forward to take a hit early (including hypothetical 'ideal' laser) but considering how early he jumped oos im thinking he was going for a ballsy read>punish with the shield

you won the encounter by 1-2 frames too considering you both jumped on the same frame (pretty sure mango was doing a retreating dair). considering that bair is 1 frame faster than dair, if you jumped/baired any slower you would have traded/lost. but you won anyways so thats neato :D nvm if you baired earlier that would have worked too...but if you hit his shield you would have gotten butted

assuming you lasered instead - if mango didn't ps im assuming you could have landed a punish on his shield/oos movement (depends on when/where you lasered) without the aerial gamble. of course if he did ps you then you would have gotten butted but the likelihood of that is pretty slim

if you lasered from center (outside strong punish range) youd still have decent stage control but chance of a strong punish or w/e. on the flipside getting your laser ps'd wouldnt be too bad, but again the chances of that are pretty slim



yea idk
im not umbreon and youre like 2000 times better than me but i want to post a thingy lol

edit - this is the marth board isnt it <_<
 
D

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i'm not reviewing you vs armada because i want to go outside sometime in the next month lol

i'll come back and look at everything more closely later tonight.

edit: you would pick a falco mix-up. i'm a little soft on falco knowledge in part because i don't play falco, in part because he's so stupid complex, and in part because falco is poopy and stupid. i'll try it anyway.

typically when falco is pinned by the edge, his first goal is to get to a point where his dash can do something meaningful to reestablish position. falco has a "hole" per se where his moves are considerably worse when he can't place them exactly where he wants to (as opposed to sheik or samus or a similar character). to me it makes total sense that mango's first action is to dash out of the corner to regain stage. so it becomes your job to disallow him to gain raw stage area back. how falco can do this is highly varied and here's where i'll start to look like a dip****.



mango's first action is to dash immediately to get out of a positional disadvantage. at this point, you already have positional advantage by holding center stage while being close to him. this effectively walls him out by keeping him at the edge and forcing him to get past you to reset to neutral. at your position, he does not have enough space to make proper use of falco's dash, nor does he have a good point to jump to coming out from the edge until he gets closer to the center stage where full jumping to the top platform offers a way to reset to neutral.



at this point, mango has retained enough stage to where he can transition back into the neutral game if you fail to check his movement, so he stops and shields, shield-angling in a buffer toward you to cover your low-risk options pre-preemptively. this is a good, safe way to regain raw stage area to lessen your stage control with minimal risk. if you fail to check him here, he has a few decent ways to reestablish neutral, by the aforementioned jumping to the top platform, or by reacting to any mistakes you give him. since you don't give him anything to work with-



he opts for what is clearly the full jump option to the top platform. at this point though, you still have positional advantage from your dashdance, so even if you didn't laser to keep him pinned near the edge, his options are still fairly limited in terms of actually dealing with you. you haven't really given him anything to work with except a small portion of the stage where he's still disadvantaged, and you also haven't extended into him under the platform where he could have had another opportunity to play around with your extension and maybe leverage a conversion out of that.



the final result is that you stuffed the move, although at this point the bair isn't really a mix-up but just going through the motions since mango's next move is clearly the jump. the real mix-up of this movement was your initial dashdance out of the tech roll by not extending into the other falco dashing in towards you.

there's 2 caveats here that follow my initial argument. first, even if this is a mix-up, you maintain positional advantage for the duration of the entire maneuver. this makes your stage coverage very low-risk and mango is actually has very few ways to meaningfully interact with you. secondly, i'm not necessarily convinced that this movement is strictly subpar. this may be my lack of experience and knowledge with falco, but the point stands that the alternative of lasering and closing in is questionably another way to over-extend into an opponent that was frankly ready for it if you did it- dashing at you, ready to react to your coverage, and experienced at shield angling and shine oos conversions from that kind of play. you'll have to explain to me why it's subpar, because the two alternatives seem fairly closely matched if not in favor of the "subpar" decision. again, i'm not a falco guru.
 

oukd

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nice

although
he opts for what is clearly the full jump option to the top platform
if you watch the clip frame by frame he's clearly doing a forward shorthop while holding backwards (their nametags are aligned perfectly while airborne apparently the tags lag lol, thanks bones. point still stands tho) and it looks like he's dairing

<.<
 

Bones0

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I think he's nairing, but his legs are definitely bent on one frame as one of Falco's moves comes out.

The tags don't really indicate anything though because they lag by a frame in NTSC, so they weren't far enough off the ground for the tag to indicate whether or not he SHed or FHed. If you're just saying that indicates they jumped at the same time, then nvm.


Whether it was a SH or FH isn't terribly relevant. PP just covered all of Mango's jumping options, both SHing and FHing. I think Mango could have easily held shield and/or WDed back to SHL once he was that far into the stage though. It seemed like more of a mistake on Mango's part being aggro than all of his options being taken away (not that there's any way to cover all of his options in that scenario though).
 

MookieRah

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I would be really interested to see some discussions (like the one above) on optimal play based on common positions. I think that it wouldn't be too large of a task to take a handful of common positions and discuss what the most optimal thing the players should do in a general sense (character specific stuff would make this a massive task so I'd avoid that for now). I think most players, especially those who've played for a while, have an internalized list of what to do given specific circumstances, but I doubt we have all filled our list with the most optimal strategies. It'd be nice to have a sort of base guideline to follow, at least in order to increase awareness as well as thought behind the actions we take.

On another note, before I read this I was thinking of trying to make a list on what one should train based on important fundamental stuff first, all the way down to very tech heavy things that yield much more subtle rewards (stuff like moonwalking). I'd love to have a list to look at, and I think it'd be a good tool for the community to be able to view too. Some of the stuff is obvious, like mastering short hops, mastering l-cancels, mastering wave dashes/wave lands, but some stuff is harder to gauge. For example, I've been putting off working on this thing for weeks now:

The past couple of days I've really doubled down on it, and I'm beginning to be able to do it somewhat consistently. This is an important thing to learn, obviously, but something I noticed is that I was much quicker to react to other tech situations after practicing this. It's an unexpected huge plus to practicing this, I now am much quicker with all kinds of survival techs. This, in my mind, makes this much more important to learn, and is something that I should have prioritized higher.

Does anyone else know of stuff like the above, where the gains of learning something are actually greater than simply learning the task at hand? It'd be nice to know I think.
 

Bones0

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It's funny you mention listing out optimal things because I've recently started compiling flowcharts for different matchups for different tasks. I'm not keen on releasing every detail about how I play to the public, obviously. lol But honestly, I think the best part about these sort of flowcharts/outlines is that there isn't much players can look at and use to their advantage. I'm focusing more on acquiring habits that are just plain good and can't really be stopped. Any strategy that relies on surprising the opponent usually isn't very good, so I'd like to move away from that stuff anyway. I recently watched a lot of Day[9] stuff about improvement, and one thing he mentioned was that his opponents almost always knew why they lost, they just didn't know what to do about it.

[collapse=Falco vs. Marth]GOAL: KO the opponent
A. Off the side
1. bair​
- WLing/Shai dropping from plats​
- shield pokes during pressure​
- fthrow off stage, get on ledge​
2. dsmash​
- hit confirm from missed tech, TIP, or tech roll​
~ dthrow to force tech chase​
~ WD on reaction to position properly​
- CC​
~ WD into opponent to ensure close spacing​
- walking dsmash edgeguard​
- spotdodge a grab​
3. fsmash​
- faded early aerials during pressure​
- cover tech rolls on reaction​
~ only use for rolls towards ledge​
- CC​
~ GUA (what %s?)​
~ aerials (which attacks give me enough time?)​
B. Off the bottom
C. Off the top[/collapse]

I just start out with super general things like "KOing", and then break down which moves I will want to use, then how I want to use them, and if you look at the last two points you will even see some stuff that I have thought about but haven't had time to test/implement yet. One thing Melee teaches you very fast is that mental clarity is the fastest and most effective way of improving reaction time. Someone who has a great natural reaction time and trains it with random reaction tests daily is still going to perform actions more sloppily than someone who has a great, in depth understanding of their options. I started with the Marth matchup because I feel like I've already gotten to a point where I know what's optimal for the most part, and then when I try to break down a matchup I'm less familiar with like Fox, I will sort of be able to reference the Marth outline to figure out what similar sort of goals and sub-goals I should have. I think this sort of concrete Theory Bros.'ing is the only way I'll be able to get good at most matchups since I have such limited practice opportunity vs. most characters. I imagine it will be much quicker to type up anything and everything that comes into my head even once during in a certain matchup instead of playing the matchup a million times until everything becomes habit out of sheer repetition.
 

ChivalRuse

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SHFFLing nair forward may cover more of your opponent's spacings, but if you were wrong about them SHFFLing at you, pretty much anything else they do will destroy you. Nair is just way too susceptible to DD grab, CCCs, and FH aerials. Maybe if your opponent is trapped by the ledge at high % and you just want to close space as you approach him at the ledge, then I guess that would be pretty good, but that's really specific and not all that effective compared to the usual alternative of staying on the ground and abusing all of Marth's good stuff (dtilt, grab, DD, WD). I used to approach with all sorts of aerials as Marth, but after so much time trying to force his aerials into working, I kind of just accepted that they don't. I will occasionally SH forward with the threat of late fair/uair, but that's about it. Everything else (when not fading away) just gets whooped by DD grab and OoS punishes. *shrug*
Marth's nair will stuff some aerials outright. For example, if you nair right when Falcon commits to a running SH nair you will stuff him utterly. That's beside the point, though, since that isn't what I was referring to before. That would be this: If you put a hitbox where somebody is going to be prior to them being there or get that hitbox out meatily enough prior to the action that they perform in that location, you will effectively stuff them. Thus, if you predict Falco will SH laser forward, then SH dair forward, assuming you are in the right positiong, SH nair out of shield will stuff Falco's nair. However, if Falco is reacting to you out of shield options well, he can just dash dance after the SHL and punish your nair lag. Or he could slip under your nair with dash attack. But the general concept of meaty-attacking somebody to stuff movement still stands as far as I'm concerned. It's really good for suffocating people as you'll see players like Armada and Mango do this absolutely all the time.
 

ChivalRuse

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If you have a ken combo setup it can be good sometimes, depending on whether or not you can get into dair position from your double jump/whether or not dair will kill. Occasionally you can opt for reverse up-b instead of dair.

Or if somebody dash attacks your shield blatantly and they're at dolphin-slash-KO-range, go for it.
 
D

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i'm pretty sure the best think-tank for smash to ever exist was my car leaving apex. it was too serious, i had to destroy that car to preserve the cryptic arts.
 

zzzzzzzzzz

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i see pros do Fair on shield and dont get shield grabbed what am i missing? i know they l cancel but is it mainly about spacing? im just learning to shffl and wavedash. i played peach when i played before. so because of this my spacing, approach and punishing really suffers. and when i do get the spacing and l cancel correct for the SH fair what options do i have? what exactly am i looking for? when is nair a better option to approach?
 

Xyzz

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I see pros do doubleshine wavedash down and not get punished.
Many things that happen on shield aren't necessarily safe, but if the opponent isn't expecting them and isn't able to punish them on reaction, there won't really be an issue if you don't do them all the time. If you've proven that you perform flawless nair > shines nearly all of the time, they will be pretty hesitant to try and get a oos option between the aerial and the shine, since it usually just gets them shined.

You generally don't want to fair in people's shields, but sometimes you are confident that you can connect with an aerial and so you choose to fair, if nair will knock them to far away to combo. But then they do get a shield out in time, and well, that's when you fair their shield. If that happens, it's probably best to just attempt your standard shield pressure as if you naired / daired their shield and see if they'll let you have it. (that of course means shine if you're in that deep on their shield or be spaced away far enough to not get hit by their expected oos option, or do some mixups between jabs / spot dodges / dash away for failspacings in between)


edit: oh lol, this is the marth boards. Was so sure this was the Falco thread. With Marth not getting shield grabbed for fair is about spacing it correctly ;)
 

zzzzzzzzzz

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You generally don't want to fair in people's shields, but sometimes you are confident that you can connect with an aerial and so you choose to fair, if nair will knock them to far away to combo. But then they do get a shield out in time, and well, that's when you fair their shield. If that happens, it's probably best to just attempt your standard shield pressure as if you naired / daired their shield and see if they'll let you have it. (that of course means shine if you're in that deep on their shield or be spaced away far enough to not get hit by their expected oos option, or do some mixups between jabs / spot dodges / dash away for failspacings in between)


edit: oh lol, this is the marth boards. Was so sure this was the Falco thread. With Marth not getting shield grabbed for fair is about spacing it correctly ;)
so does that mean its better to approach with nair?
 

Xyzz

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if you read a few pages of the thread you'll notice that the general consensus is that you should avoid moving forward with nair (unless you're comboing with it) until you are a super high level marth and know exactly what you're doing.
 

Bones0

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i see pros do Fair on shield and dont get shield grabbed what am i missing? i know they l cancel but is it mainly about spacing? im just learning to shffl and wavedash. i played peach when i played before. so because of this my spacing, approach and punishing really suffers. and when i do get the spacing and l cancel correct for the SH fair what options do i have? what exactly am i looking for? when is nair a better option to approach?
It's because they space the fair so it hits with the tip, and they time it so it hits right before they land. Tipping their shield dishes out more shield stun, so they have to wait more frames before moving OoS, and they also can't reach you with a shield grab and most OoS options. They time it as they land because if you do a rising fair on someone's shield and aren't fading away from them, they can quite easily attack OoS before your second fair comes out. So you sort of just float there with the threat of a fair until right before you land, and then you tip their shield to keep them in check and react to whatever they do.
 

Construct

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Absolutely lost my mind watching Ken vs Scar
that side-b->up-b->counter string was the most absurd thing I've ever seen
the amount of improvement he had from KoC to KoC 2 is ridiculous, I wonder what sort of show he'll put on at EVO
Daaaamn that was hype
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Max would you rather I picked me vs m2k where I'm Marth from Xanadu? I didn't wanna pick it initially because a lot of it was me learning what was good and bad throughout the whole set(except for some Uthrow combos I haven't figured out yet lol.)

I'll still respond to your post like tonight but I thought I'd put this here for now haha. Sorry it's taken so long.
 
D

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i mean, your name is a reference to bladder discharge and my name is a reference to a mediocre pokemon. clearly we should just stop what we're doing and evaluate our place in the universe and what it means to live as a free man in modern society.
 

Construct

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Tai is so cool it causes me physical pain

That Yoshi's story recovery stuff is out of this world, definitely going to work on plagiarizing that.

How are you so consistent with walljumptech bair? Did you actively train it against motion sensor bombs (or some other training method), or did you just work on it in matches?

edit: That set against PPU was absolutely insane
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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So on the topic of Ken and dancing blade, for the life of me I can't remember why the community decided that dancing blade was bad. All I can remember on the subject years ago is that, "you shouldn't do it past the third hit" and "Roy's is better." That said, it seems like Ken went all the way through the dancing blade as much as he went to the third hit, and often times it worked out better that way. I think it's time that we reevaluated the move, cause I think it might have been tossed out as "bad" or "noobish" before it was ever used properly.

I say all of the above thinking that Ken overused this, though. I think part of the reason it was working to the extent that it was is because of the novelty of it. The times where his opponent would try to punish him after, but didn't realize that he popped out on the other side of him is something that wouldn't work against someone who knows how to deal with dancing blade shenanigans.
 
D

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the short answer is that crouch exists. you could argue that you can catch people in the air like roy can before landing, but honestly marth is better off taking a free grab/fair/fair > grab into dial-a-combo because he can actually carry someone into a **** position and keep them there until killing them or just kill them outright.
 
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