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- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Yo the Fox matchup goes back to even when the Fox quits doing nooby SH Nairs
aka plays Fox more like he's supposed to be played
aka I want an excuse to say this matchup is even again so we can use it as the standard of comparison for matchups like 2007.
Okay but seriously, Marth feels slow vs a Fox that gets you above him and just pokes you or just pokes in general. It's a perfectly doable matchup, but you gotta focus and decide when to go hard, take a little space, or just super feint around lol.
aka plays Fox more like he's supposed to be played
aka I want an excuse to say this matchup is even again so we can use it as the standard of comparison for matchups like 2007.
Okay but seriously, Marth feels slow vs a Fox that gets you above him and just pokes you or just pokes in general. It's a perfectly doable matchup, but you gotta focus and decide when to go hard, take a little space, or just super feint around lol.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
really curious how you are defining a nooby sh nair. fox can reach a spacing where marth cannot dash back in time to dodge the nair and only do those slightly overshot nairs to remain safe..but even if he does that if marth chooses to dash forward slightly and grab, then that will catch the fox for going for those.
back when i mained fox 2 years ago, I would play really grounded and go for a nice mix of grabs and counterhit nairs only on the marth..basically camping the marth. but in that situation marth gets overshot grabs and dash attacks too easily. I think this matchup would have been the standard for even before marth's started smash DIing the upairs and jumping out of shield pressure to eat the shine.Maybe if foxes get really good at second hit upairing i could see it being even..but marth just outpaces the fox in damage too easily.
most of the matches i see marths lose it's solely because the marth dropped guaranteed edgeguards rather than some special play by the fox.
i do think that you're right and foxes should play for that grab more using counterhit style..also that is certainly the way to win the match easily if your opponent cannot smash DI upairs.
but I guess my flaw is I'm assuming perfect play from the marth. the reality is the marth is the one moving in response reactively when the fox comes in; so if he misjudges the timing of fox's dashdance and dashes at the wrong time then he often loses stage control entirely.. so maybe if it's not on paper the matchup becomes more even.
kind of like how i agree with KK that on paper the matchup vs sheik doesn't seem that bad for marth..but to keep pace in damage the marth's combos have to be on point. that and the inability to finish seem to be the main problems.
...marth struggles to edgeguard after sending sheik mid range [within 1 screen with sheik above stage slightly from decent DI] offstage where you need to bair early to hit them or they may early poof and explode you if you go offstage(anyone else watch PP get hit by this in his friendlies at impulse and understand his dilemma?)
The response to beat that is to just get back to the ledge at the right time. But if you're right, you merely get them back off (maybe an fsmash or weak upair to combo to send them off)...and they get back on stage for free if you guessed wrong in the mixup.
shield breaker is a little better than this if you have the option..but is too risky to go for if the sheik still has their jump when coming down from high
Sheik at those same ranges has a 100% kill rate on marth if she gets off in time...marth doesn't have any of this instant up B into invuln nonsense
only at low percents when marths are sent offstage can the marth hope to live and even there, sheik has a higher EV on the damage she will rack on. If marths could always do perfect combos and end in tippers so that the sheik never ended up offstage except super high and far, then maybe marth's would have a chance..but in the real world where the marth must react quickly to DI..there has never been a marth who hasn't struggled at killing sheik.
Certainly occasionally the marth will get a set where he plays on point or gets the early combo into kill..but even m2k and PP constantly have matches where they lose because they didn't perfectly execute the combo. Marth is good, but i think matchup charts need to be based on realistic expectations of play.
however, regardless in this game the matchups aren't so imbalanced that you can't win a set against a good player of your skill level in a matchup that doesn't favor you..But I'd rather just play peach and have better matchups than marth in the more common matchups. The reality is there are only like 4 jiggs on this coast, and I don't mind losing to one of my friends (Mahone) and watching him go far anyway
Lately I've been thinking that WD back vs sheik is probably something i'm underusing as I think that all the characters with poor dashdances are vulnerable to it(ICs, Luigi, Sheik). I had already implemented it vs ICs, but I had not really thought about its applications to fighting sheik enough. It's a way to keep the sheik playing reactively at high percents (assuming they respect it)..but even then if they respect it you will only be able to punish them for respecting it with dtilt/dash attack/and grab. All of which are of limited usefulness against sheik at higher percents. I guess I would favor dtilt probably. But yeah, marths should insert more WD back at high percents on sheik instead of dashdancing. If the sheik isn't approaching though don't just spam it (since it places you in lag) and just go in and get your free hit that won't kill sheik
back when i mained fox 2 years ago, I would play really grounded and go for a nice mix of grabs and counterhit nairs only on the marth..basically camping the marth. but in that situation marth gets overshot grabs and dash attacks too easily. I think this matchup would have been the standard for even before marth's started smash DIing the upairs and jumping out of shield pressure to eat the shine.Maybe if foxes get really good at second hit upairing i could see it being even..but marth just outpaces the fox in damage too easily.
most of the matches i see marths lose it's solely because the marth dropped guaranteed edgeguards rather than some special play by the fox.
i do think that you're right and foxes should play for that grab more using counterhit style..also that is certainly the way to win the match easily if your opponent cannot smash DI upairs.
but I guess my flaw is I'm assuming perfect play from the marth. the reality is the marth is the one moving in response reactively when the fox comes in; so if he misjudges the timing of fox's dashdance and dashes at the wrong time then he often loses stage control entirely.. so maybe if it's not on paper the matchup becomes more even.
kind of like how i agree with KK that on paper the matchup vs sheik doesn't seem that bad for marth..but to keep pace in damage the marth's combos have to be on point. that and the inability to finish seem to be the main problems.
...marth struggles to edgeguard after sending sheik mid range [within 1 screen with sheik above stage slightly from decent DI] offstage where you need to bair early to hit them or they may early poof and explode you if you go offstage(anyone else watch PP get hit by this in his friendlies at impulse and understand his dilemma?)
The response to beat that is to just get back to the ledge at the right time. But if you're right, you merely get them back off (maybe an fsmash or weak upair to combo to send them off)...and they get back on stage for free if you guessed wrong in the mixup.
shield breaker is a little better than this if you have the option..but is too risky to go for if the sheik still has their jump when coming down from high
Sheik at those same ranges has a 100% kill rate on marth if she gets off in time...marth doesn't have any of this instant up B into invuln nonsense
only at low percents when marths are sent offstage can the marth hope to live and even there, sheik has a higher EV on the damage she will rack on. If marths could always do perfect combos and end in tippers so that the sheik never ended up offstage except super high and far, then maybe marth's would have a chance..but in the real world where the marth must react quickly to DI..there has never been a marth who hasn't struggled at killing sheik.
Certainly occasionally the marth will get a set where he plays on point or gets the early combo into kill..but even m2k and PP constantly have matches where they lose because they didn't perfectly execute the combo. Marth is good, but i think matchup charts need to be based on realistic expectations of play.
however, regardless in this game the matchups aren't so imbalanced that you can't win a set against a good player of your skill level in a matchup that doesn't favor you..But I'd rather just play peach and have better matchups than marth in the more common matchups. The reality is there are only like 4 jiggs on this coast, and I don't mind losing to one of my friends (Mahone) and watching him go far anyway
Lately I've been thinking that WD back vs sheik is probably something i'm underusing as I think that all the characters with poor dashdances are vulnerable to it(ICs, Luigi, Sheik). I had already implemented it vs ICs, but I had not really thought about its applications to fighting sheik enough. It's a way to keep the sheik playing reactively at high percents (assuming they respect it)..but even then if they respect it you will only be able to punish them for respecting it with dtilt/dash attack/and grab. All of which are of limited usefulness against sheik at higher percents. I guess I would favor dtilt probably. But yeah, marths should insert more WD back at high percents on sheik instead of dashdancing. If the sheik isn't approaching though don't just spam it (since it places you in lag) and just go in and get your free hit that won't kill sheik
D
Deleted member
Guest
I mean like...list of characters that do well when fox is below them:
Falco...maybe?
/end list
fox's upthrow is broken.
so is marth's upthrow.
...this is why we never talk about smash strategies LOL
Nooby SH Nair is the one Fox does first for the most part lol. That is, if he's aiming to hit. Legit SH Nair is now one that is aiming to be close and not to hit(curse your Fox technology Cactuar)
Foxes are pretty great at teching and recovering as well as slight DI'ing CGs to break out as well as edge teching platforms during juggles so they don't get death comboed/gimped so easily. Mayyybe Marth gets more guaranteed punishes, but Fox gets more shenanigans at neutral since he's faster and putting Marth in the air is some LOL since Bair exists.
I agree that many Marths lose because they drop punishes and get counterkilled. There's a lot more to matches than that though. The Marths also need a lot of movement/zoning game work. I just stole an Azen trick(delayed Fair to WD back) which worked wonders vs Twitch today mixed in well(no one does that now btw). People have much to learn about this character and the game in general so let's not write everything off so quickly as one cause please.
Foxes don't have to play counterhit so much as they have to poke a lot and get Marth before or after he commits. Not a terribly hard feat when put that way(though obviously not actually easy in practice.)
My jury is out on the Sheik matchup....I haven't played that in so long. I could see it being not that bad or pretty awful(virtually unwinnable without a lot of hard work is what I mean but that could mean only 60-40 in actual numbers.)
I think my Sheik edgeguarding can be greatly improved. I'll show it later if I can get Twitch to grind the matchup with me lol. I'm hoping to upload over break.
As long as Marth keeps the winning position and doesn't have to think much for his punish like in the repetitive Sheik whacking, then it's still a combo and it'll eventually be a kill or an easy kill. Think that way instead of always worrying about the perfect kill setup and Marth seems a lot better and you don't stress so much.
Peach has a better matchup spread than Marth? News to me.....
Edit: yup umbreon LMAO. Also Fox Utilt>Falco Dair =(
Vs sheik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3GuP6F9iZo
Vs. Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=pm6U7th0db8
Dr. Peepee could u please critique my marth? I'm really trying to get better. I'm also having a really hard time with falco. Any tip is greatly appreciated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3GuP6F9iZo
Vs. Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=pm6U7th0db8
Dr. Peepee could u please critique my marth? I'm really trying to get better. I'm also having a really hard time with falco. Any tip is greatly appreciated
Bones0
Smash Legend
That's cause a month ago I posted like 20 times how WD back is vastly superior to DDing. lol
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
that's definitely not why
FOX TECHNOLOGY. IN YA FACE. BARELY.
lulz
lulz
Niko45
Smash Master
ehhhh Marth wrecks Fox. I just don't see what Fox can do Marth has an answer for everything he does spacing and movement wise. Only thing keeping Fox in the MU is missing SDI on uairs or getting shine spiked randomly which can inflate his punish game drastically.
D
Deleted member
Guest
woah woah slow down with the crazy talk. no one went that far. that's not cool, man.That's cause a month ago I posted like 20 times how WD back is vastly superior to DDing. lol
Bones0
Smash Legend
My posts are 110% hyperbole, 0% sarcasm, and -10% troll.
Hyperbole has like a billion uses
Bones0
Smash Legend
I mean, that's probably true. You should have went with "infinite" uses or something less believable.
Might critique this in a day or so if no one else gets to it. =)Vs sheik.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3GuP6F9iZo
Vs. Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=pm6U7th0db8
Dr. Peepee could u please critique my marth? I'm really trying to get better. I'm also having a really hard time with falco. Any tip is greatly appreciated
Spacing- When is the last time Foxes have tried to space on Marth? Don't they usually SH Nair approach? No matter how good their DD is, if that's always their finished product(a SH Nair with intent to hit Marth), then of course the matchup is bad for Fox because the Fox is playing badly. What about spaced Bair? Marth can't handle that easily out of a dash because Bair beats Dtilt and dash canceling a move is basically a super hard prediction that Fox can easily manipulate.
Movement- Fox is faster than Marth, has greater vertical acceleration and max fall speed in his jumps, and this opens up Fox's DJ allowing for more mixups and ways to make Marth feel slow. Marth has a bigger WD, but his slower dash and options out of the dash compared with Foxes very fast out of dash and WD options(shine, upsmash, faster aerials if need be) make Fox more threatening here.
Oh and punishing? Fox upthrowing Marth is always fun because then Uair/Bair/Utilt/Usmash/Ftilt at the edge pokes and mixups make Marth's recovery a total nightmare and Fox can rack up stray hits unbelievably quickly....in a manner similar to what Marth does to many of his opponents when he Upthrows them. Fox throwing Marth offstage also can lead to VERY easy shines. If you don't believe me or want to run through scenarios and compare them with Marth's gimp game I'd be happy to do so. =)
I'm not saying Fox beats Marth. I am suggesting that the matchup is still pretty even like it pretty much always has been. Marth gets more guaranteed hard punishes but Fox gets more reliable finishers and a little bit more help with movement while Marth gets more range. It's a wonderful matchup and I'm pretty glad I'm seeing it go back to even before my eyes after these years of Foxes being behind in the metagame.
I didn't think it through very carefully. But then again Marth has a pretty good utilt
MT_
Smash Ace
Trying to find a post where Taj goes into detail about the Marth vs ICs matchup explaining that it's 60:40 but I can't find it... can anyone help me out?
EDIT: nvm just found it http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14243811#post14243811 for those that were interested
EDIT: nvm just found it http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14243811#post14243811 for those that were interested
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea actually I could see it getting tougher if Fox players got super gay and played really grab heavy but they do opt for nair shine stuff a lot when it really isn't better vs Marth in most situations. I'm so out of the loop now anyway I really shouldn't be commenting lol.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
You can't really space bair out of DD (well, I guess you could pivot bair, but you forfeit a lot of momentum that way). I feel like that's only more effective if you have Marth pinned at the ledge/above you/in shield.
Actually, after thinking about it, I guess he can dash away > backflip > bair. The dash back plays with Marth, making him think Fox is giving up space/trying to bait him with a grab. And then bam, a foot.
Beat!
Smash Master
Shield stop exists.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
You're still forfeiting the momentum that nair provides, but yes, they do.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Man, there's so much wisdom here. I can't even tell if you intended it. And nobody will spot it.
Good **** Cactuar.
Bones0
Smash Legend
It definitely made me chuckle.
Foxes go for shines because it's the easiest way to not get grabbed. And getting grabbed is the easiest way to lose Fox vs. Marth.
Foxes go for shines because it's the easiest way to not get grabbed. And getting grabbed is the easiest way to lose Fox vs. Marth.
they dont think it be like it is, but it do
D
Deleted member
Guest
i mean, shine leading into a grab is also the best way for fox to win.
actually going into a grab is the best way for fox to win pretty much all of his match-ups.
no one tell the fox players.
edit: especially cactuar. no one tell cactuar to grab more. that would be bad.
fox's nair is like 2.3 cactuars but all the fox players think it's 0 lolololol
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think Fox is way better at just grabbing straight up than trying to waveshine into it (though I definitely agree grabbing is key to victory for Fox along with pretty much every character). People seem pretty good at waiting out shines these days. You don't see a lot of SHFFLed nairs followed up with waveshine grabs. I only really see waveshine stuff when the Fox can hitconfirm the shine.
sweeeeet link bruh
The discussion is really nice, thanks for chiming in. =)
FF'ing vs no FF, DJ vs no DJ, how far you dash before jumping, whether you use platforms, shield stopping, and more play into how Fox can Bair out of a DD. Perfectly doable. Very powerful.
twitch keeps stealing your stuff except some DD stuff so you gotta do more we miss your vids in shelby cactus =)
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
have you actually played poke style fox vs marth pp?
i've played your fox a lot, and i've never once seen you attempt that vs the grab heavy DD style with a touch of the nair.
poking marth vs bair..do you really think that's going to work when marth has better pokes?
if they try to poke me with bairs (which i do like and it's safer)...i just start poking them myself..not to mention while the punish on bair is less guaranteed.....they can't throw off your spacing as easily as with nair so it's super easy to dash dance around.
Anyway I don't think marth is that advantaged on fox as i made it sound probably..fox is fast..maintaining that perfect spacing is difficult...and sometimes you just eat multiple upairs like a scrub (hello M2k!!!)...no one's perfect.
Also your fox is better than any fox i've seen at preventing me from getting back down.
I would mention stuff you do that other foxes don't..but in the random event that I actually play marth again I don't want foxes to know your secrets..keep them in the dark ok
foxes will keep playing nair heavy and rely on marth being worse at dashdancing than them.
also i forgot to mention if the foxes refuse to go nair heavy...dtilt suddenly becomes more and more godlike
i've played your fox a lot, and i've never once seen you attempt that vs the grab heavy DD style with a touch of the nair.
poking marth vs bair..do you really think that's going to work when marth has better pokes?
if they try to poke me with bairs (which i do like and it's safer)...i just start poking them myself..not to mention while the punish on bair is less guaranteed.....they can't throw off your spacing as easily as with nair so it's super easy to dash dance around.
Anyway I don't think marth is that advantaged on fox as i made it sound probably..fox is fast..maintaining that perfect spacing is difficult...and sometimes you just eat multiple upairs like a scrub (hello M2k!!!)...no one's perfect.
Also your fox is better than any fox i've seen at preventing me from getting back down.
I would mention stuff you do that other foxes don't..but in the random event that I actually play marth again I don't want foxes to know your secrets..keep them in the dark ok
foxes will keep playing nair heavy and rely on marth being worse at dashdancing than them.
also i forgot to mention if the foxes refuse to go nair heavy...dtilt suddenly becomes more and more godlike
Bones0
Smash Legend
I used to just do w/e when people were falling down towards me.
Then I watched PP. Isai says "don't get hit". PP says "don't let them touch the ground".
Then I watched PP. Isai says "don't get hit". PP says "don't let them touch the ground".
~Twitch~
Smash Master
cactaur i'm your new #1 fangirl.
I do it sometimes, but I'm speaking of the perspective of playing vs Twitch and to an extent Cactuar who play more like that.have you actually played poke style fox vs marth pp?
i've played your fox a lot, and i've never once seen you attempt that vs the grab heavy DD style with a touch of the nair.
poking marth vs bair..do you really think that's going to work when marth has better pokes?
if they try to poke me with bairs (which i do like and it's safer)...i just start poking them myself..not to mention while the punish on bair is less guaranteed.....they can't throw off your spacing as easily as with nair so it's super easy to dash dance around.
Anyway I don't think marth is that advantaged on fox as i made it sound probably..fox is fast..maintaining that perfect spacing is difficult...and sometimes you just eat multiple upairs like a scrub (hello M2k!!!)...no one's perfect.
Also your fox is better than any fox i've seen at preventing me from getting back down.
I would mention stuff you do that other foxes don't..but in the random event that I actually play marth again I don't want foxes to know your secrets..keep them in the dark ok
foxes will keep playing nair heavy and rely on marth being worse at dashdancing than them.
also i forgot to mention if the foxes refuse to go nair heavy...dtilt suddenly becomes more and more godlike
Bair works vs Marth. Marth may have farther-reaching pokes, but that doesn't make them "better." Consider startup of each move, how long it takes each move to get to Fox, the lag on each move. Bair is constant and set up in a lot of different ways. Marth gets more range on the ground but can't chase Fox well unless he's dashing, which makes him lose the Utilt and Ftilt that may be great help vs Bair. Also keep in mind what I said about Fox falling so quickly and being able to FF vs not-FF in addition to DJ'ing, wavelanding instead of Bair'ing, using platforms, and air control to make the Bair harder to deal with.
The idea with Bair isn't a constant poke battle. It's a mixup. Sometimes Fox pokes with Bair, and sometimes he falls into you with Nair because you can't react very quickly and were DD'ing trying to get Fox to Bair(away from you) again.
If Bair connects with Marth and he didn't CC, then he has to worry about being grabbed vs poked again vs pressured and if any of these lead into a Nair or Uthrow then a lot of damage or a shine isn't far away since Marth can't handle being airborne out of his own terms that well.
Multiple Uairs are hard to deal with =(
I won't tell Fox secrets unless asked =p
Yeah Dtilt opens up more if Foxes wanna DD more, but these Bairs and other jump mixups are all jumps so Dtilt still loses a lot of effectiveness imo. I REALLY like Dtilt as a mixup more than an actual poking tool in this matchup because people forget about it a lot and it messes with people's heads super hard when they forget they can't DD even a little in between jumping mixups. It's Marth's way of taking the ground back in the matchup and making his life a little easier sometimes haha.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Excuse me?
D
Deleted member
Guest
you mean LINK secrets. for your secret pocket LINK that's you're playing in APEX BRACKET
RIGHT? LINK?
we agreed on mario??
get out of here!!!
get out of here!!!
D
Deleted member
Guest
sick, for a second there i thought you were going to back out.I'm all in.
it is too hard to say no to that pic
twitch if you read this im sorry LOL
twitch if you read this im sorry LOL
Bones0
Smash Legend
Oh man, these inside jokes.
I hope to be a part of one, one day.
I hope to be a part of one, one day.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
PP, you can't play anyone but Falco, MM *****!! =D