Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Mew2King]

PPU I think is the only marth player

m2k actually compliments when he bothers to watch marth videos lol

Id say that says ALOT

He had two really good ideas in that set both on battlefield (my marth's worst stage by far for some reason usually).

Also I think PP Should use marth on FD against Peach instead of Falco because Marth wins and Falco loses there. Marth has a small advantage vs peach on FD imo, and his playstyle is good vs floaties. A counterpick marth might benefit him slightly in certain MUs on certain stages. I think my prime with marth is by far the best vs floaties/everyone but i suck w/ him now and pretty much gave up this character. (maybe I will bring him back maybe not i honestly do not know). Well it's not that I suck with him now but I am really rusty - but I think I could bring it back if I had a lot more motivation and practiced some vs good players for a day or two with him or something. I dunno. I generally just show up at tourneys nowadays but I think I don't win a lot because I never practice the game for years (like I have not owned a wii in 2.5 years, but this shows: I was way more fluid/perfect in my movement in like 07 than I am nowadays usually).

i think pp/ppu are the other best marths in different MUs. The reason I stopped marth is because I stopped practicing melee - and marth is hugely based on being perfect much more than someone like sheik is for example who is a more consistent character than marth or puff. Like, I have Jv 5d and 4 stokced SOOOOOOO many people with marth, but I can also get ***** with him. He's super glass-cannon-ish, kind of the opposite of someone like Peach who trades hits a lot with you. The combination of stop practicing melee and picking up brawl has hurt my consistency which is why i preferred sheik in more MUs. This may or may not change in the future, I dunno.

if PP is smart he will read this post and review all the huge Marth-related wall of text / several pages of info I gave him a few months ago via facebook chat.

 

[Bones0]

I get all giddy whenever M2K mentions how many people he's 4-stocked.

PP is obviously going to use Marth vs. Armada next time, but I figured he was trying to keep it on the dl. I'm sure he'll respond to this conjecture with something like "Well, idk. We'll see. =)"

 

[Strong Badam]

what did I miss in this thread?

 

[Divinokage]

He had two really good ideas in that set both on battlefield (my marth's worst stage by far for some reason usually).

Also I think PP Should use marth on FD against Peach instead of Falco because Marth wins and Falco loses there. Marth has a small advantage vs peach on FD imo, and his playstyle is good vs floaties. A counterpick marth might benefit him slightly in certain MUs on certain stages. I think my prime with marth is by far the best vs floaties/everyone but i suck w/ him now and pretty much gave up this character. (maybe I will bring him back maybe not i honestly do not know). Well it's not that I suck with him now but I am really rusty - but I think I could bring it back if I had a lot more motivation and practiced some vs good players for a day or two with him or something. I dunno. I generally just show up at tourneys nowadays but I think I don't win a lot because I never practice the game for years (like I have not owned a wii in 2.5 years, but this shows: I was way more fluid/perfect in my movement in like 07 than I am nowadays usually).

i think pp/ppu are the other best marths in different MUs. The reason I stopped marth is because I stopped practicing melee - and marth is hugely based on being perfect much more than someone like sheik is for example who is a more consistent character than marth or puff. Like, I have Jv 5d and 4 stokced SOOOOOOO many people with marth, but I can also get ***** with him. He's super glass-cannon-ish, kind of the opposite of someone like Peach who trades hits a lot with you. The combination of stop practicing melee and picking up brawl has hurt my consistency which is why i preferred sheik in more MUs. This may or may not change in the future, I dunno.

if PP is smart he will read this post and review all the huge Marth-related wall of text / several pages of info I gave him a few months ago via facebook chat.

Hmm.. I feel like I've read this somewhere before.. I just can't recall exactly when...

 

[Mew2King]

suk my dik

 

[Divinokage]

Mix it up, M2k. How many more times are you going to talk about your past? It can't exist if it's not occurring.

 

[Bones0]

Ladies, PLEASE.

 

[Dr Peepee]

OMG PP GO MARIO IN BRACKET OR POOLS OR SOMTHING

or...MONEY MATCH SCORPION MASTERS MARIO IN A DITTO

I will pay to see it

*Is dead serious*

O_O

ill pay double to see link even in friendlies

WHAT but my Link is booty LOL

My Mario's kinda tight though so maybe I'll use him some. I don't know!!

PP, you can't play anyone but Falco, MM *****!! =D

He had two really good ideas in that set both on battlefield (my marth's worst stage by far for some reason usually).

Also I think PP Should use marth on FD against Peach instead of Falco because Marth wins and Falco loses there. Marth has a small advantage vs peach on FD imo, and his playstyle is good vs floaties. A counterpick marth might benefit him slightly in certain MUs on certain stages. I think my prime with marth is by far the best vs floaties/everyone but i suck w/ him now and pretty much gave up this character. (maybe I will bring him back maybe not i honestly do not know). Well it's not that I suck with him now but I am really rusty - but I think I could bring it back if I had a lot more motivation and practiced some vs good players for a day or two with him or something. I dunno. I generally just show up at tourneys nowadays but I think I don't win a lot because I never practice the game for years (like I have not owned a wii in 2.5 years, but this shows: I was way more fluid/perfect in my movement in like 07 than I am nowadays usually).

i think pp/ppu are the other best marths in different MUs. The reason I stopped marth is because I stopped practicing melee - and marth is hugely based on being perfect much more than someone like sheik is for example who is a more consistent character than marth or puff. Like, I have Jv 5d and 4 stokced SOOOOOOO many people with marth, but I can also get ***** with him. He's super glass-cannon-ish, kind of the opposite of someone like Peach who trades hits a lot with you. The combination of stop practicing melee and picking up brawl has hurt my consistency which is why i preferred sheik in more MUs. This may or may not change in the future, I dunno.

if PP is smart he will read this post and review all the huge Marth-related wall of text / several pages of info I gave him a few months ago via facebook chat.

oh yeah I didn't consider Marth's perfection going into you playing him less. that makes more sense haha.

Also I will review it all, don't worry. =)

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

The man's got this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5VODucjYfA0#t=123s

 

[strawhats]

He had two really good ideas in that set both on battlefield (my marth's worst stage by far for some reason usually).

Also I think PP Should use marth on FD against Peach instead of Falco because Marth wins and Falco loses there. Marth has a small advantage vs peach on FD imo, and his playstyle is good vs floaties. A counterpick marth might benefit him slightly in certain MUs on certain stages. I think my prime with marth is by far the best vs floaties/everyone but i suck w/ him now and pretty much gave up this character. (maybe I will bring him back maybe not i honestly do not know). Well it's not that I suck with him now but I am really rusty - but I think I could bring it back if I had a lot more motivation and practiced some vs good players for a day or two with him or something. I dunno. I generally just show up at tourneys nowadays but I think I don't win a lot because I never practice the game for years (like I have not owned a wii in 2.5 years, but this shows: I was way more fluid/perfect in my movement in like 07 than I am nowadays usually).

i think pp/ppu are the other best marths in different MUs. The reason I stopped marth is because I stopped practicing melee - and marth is hugely based on being perfect much more than someone like sheik is for example who is a more consistent character than marth or puff. Like, I have Jv 5d and 4 stokced SOOOOOOO many people with marth, but I can also get ***** with him. He's super glass-cannon-ish, kind of the opposite of someone like Peach who trades hits a lot with you. The combination of stop practicing melee and picking up brawl has hurt my consistency which is why i preferred sheik in more MUs. This may or may not change in the future, I dunno.

if PP is smart he will read this post and review all the huge Marth-related wall of text / several pages of info I gave him a few months ago via facebook chat.

TLDR...Buy a gamecube/wii for 25/30$ or come to CT(Retro game store in Westport) which sells GCs/controllers for just as cheap. Start practicing marth on all stages=****.Ya dig?

Get on it son, marth can use as all the help it can get. Btw PPU is gonna be tier 1 in the next year or so if he continues improving at this rate.

More marth please pp.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Mahone has the best mario

 

[Mahone]

yo dont reveal my secrets

my mario could probably beat kage though, real talk

 

[Divinokage]

Mario? Hm.. that sounds pretty funny. MM?

 

[Mahone]

ya sure, bo7 WITH 2 BANS THOUGH, fod and yoshis are autoloses in that mu

don't chicken out, just accept it like a man

 

[Anand]

ya sure, bo7 WITH 2 BANS THOUGH, fod and yoshis are autoloses in that mu

don't chicken out, just accept it like a man

don't forget to set a lower bound on the amount of money, I'm thinking $100,000

might as well require PAL while you're at it, since Kage plays a broken character and you play a fun character that tests true skill

 

[Mahone]

oh thats true, thanks for having by back anand

 

[Metal Reeper]

Almost gave out your secret Mahone lol

 

[odinNJ]

Ganon is broken but Mario does not show true skill, so many gimmicks. Also nair

 

[Divinokage]

Probably the first time someone says Ganon might be good.. lol. But ya I dont care which stage you pick, the result will still remain the same. =)

 

[Mahone]

Wow, what a man.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fair is mad good when people are cornered.

Like, lol.

 

[Tarv]

I hate fighting floaties at 120% to like 170+% with Marth. Trying to figure out a reliable kill method that works consistently. Utilt works pretty well but seems like most people know not to float over marth when they're that high of a percentage and it's not like Marth's upthrow, to uair works at those percentages. What about dsmash though? Is it a reliable kill method against peach and puff at those 100+%s? I mean tippered fairs are nice and probably the most reliable kill at higher percentages but it's nice to have more options.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Side B to Utilt is cool

and so is Uthrow them and eventually Utilt

and is so is get them offstage with anything then free edgeguard until they die
(or they run into Utilt)

 

[Tarv]

Ooh, I do like me some Side B. I should start using it in my ground game more.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I was wondering if breaking down match-ups into some simple goals would help out at all. Someone kept telling me to do so, but I wasn't really sure what it meant or even what to aim for against different characters.

I suppose for example against fox there were a few goals depending on the situation and some which are over arcing goals throughout the match.

Main goal in match: Attempt to take center stage.
Reason: Limit fox's options to platforms and being stuck between the ledge. Provides room to retreat to punish options if needed.

Fox off stage: Cover his fastest options first and work downwards.
I.E. SideB to the stage takes highest priority to cover until you see flames. Then, consider can you block all of his angles, if not, cover the one which gives him the least lag such as his attempt to fire fox to the ledge.

Both of you on "stage" (fox low percent): Aim for grabs.
Reasoning: Most attacks from Marth other than grab could result in punishment. I.E crouch canceling or tech in place -> punish on laggy move.

Both of you on "stage" (fox mid/upper percents): More moves are available without the punishment.
Reasoning: Since lag and knockback are obviously increased, something like Dair, Dash Attack, Ftilt, SideB, Ftilt, etc. aren't so punishing inducing on hit.

Fox in combo: Use combo to work fox offstage into edgeguard. If DI permits, go for KO (I.E. Dair or Tipper Fsmash).

There are a ton of specifics, but I guess the idea of this is to break up the match-up, then you can try to figure out ways to approach each method. Like in edgeguard, jab works well at covering sideB and leads into follow-ups. Or, how does one go about getting the grab in the first place at low percents? Wiggle around as your option and avoid situations of shielding?

Although, in a match-up against Jiggs, I have little idea what should be some major points of concern. Jiggs doesn't seem to make it easy to maintain center stage in the same ways that you could against Fox. Against Fox, you would wave dash back or DD out of the way of aerial approaches and such due to his limited range. Although, jiggs's range is much larger than fox's in the sense she can weave in and out of center stage very well and be safe. So, attempting to DD out of range or wave dash back out of her max range would only put you further from the ledge. I am thinking you have to be a bit more aggressive, but that too is what she wants so that she can be out of the way when you swing and hit right back. So, I am sort of at a loss of how that match-up should be approached in neutral.

To break up the jiggs match-up, I feel the main goal is to still maintain center stage, but you have to more aggressive about it somehow. Edgeguarding to seek out a KO doesn't really seem possible other than to edgeguard to maintain your control of the stage. The low-mid percents seems to focus more on only building up damage. High percents then can you seek out the KO with something like Uair, Fair, Utilt, etc. As for combo opportunities, you want to focus more on building up damage, so if you can Fthrow tipper, than fthrow -> fair would set-up for more damage.

 

[Medz!]

I really like wavedash jab against jiggs when she's in the air. It makes you tell her to respect your space. Make sure to play patient and go for grabs in low percents since it usually leads into tippers, but don't be predictable with them either since she can crouch and rest you since you don't want that. Mix it up and dtilt the crouch or something, at high percents side b into up tilt works miracles. Also don't fsmash her shield, it will lead into a rest punish. Like I said just play patient and pick up habits from the jiggs player, I mean you have 8 minutes lol you don't have to rush.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was wondering if breaking down match-ups into some simple goals would help out at all. Someone kept telling me to do so, but I wasn't really sure what it meant or even what to aim for against different characters.

I suppose for example against fox there were a few goals depending on the situation and some which are over arcing goals throughout the match.

Main goal in match: Attempt to take center stage.
Reason: Limit fox's options to platforms and being stuck between the ledge. Provides room to retreat to punish options if needed.

Fox off stage: Cover his fastest options first and work downwards.
I.E. SideB to the stage takes highest priority to cover until you see flames. Then, consider can you block all of his angles, if not, cover the one which gives him the least lag such as his attempt to fire fox to the ledge.

Both of you on "stage" (fox low percent): Aim for grabs.
Reasoning: Most attacks from Marth other than grab could result in punishment. I.E crouch canceling or tech in place -> punish on laggy move.

Both of you on "stage" (fox mid/upper percents): More moves are available without the punishment.
Reasoning: Since lag and knockback are obviously increased, something like Dair, Dash Attack, Ftilt, SideB, Ftilt, etc. aren't so punishing inducing on hit.

Fox in combo: Use combo to work fox offstage into edgeguard. If DI permits, go for KO (I.E. Dair or Tipper Fsmash).

There are a ton of specifics, but I guess the idea of this is to break up the match-up, then you can try to figure out ways to approach each method. Like in edgeguard, jab works well at covering sideB and leads into follow-ups. Or, how does one go about getting the grab in the first place at low percents? Wiggle around as your option and avoid situations of shielding?

Although, in a match-up against Jiggs, I have little idea what should be some major points of concern. Jiggs doesn't seem to make it easy to maintain center stage in the same ways that you could against Fox. Against Fox, you would wave dash back or DD out of the way of aerial approaches and such due to his limited range. Although, jiggs's range is much larger than fox's in the sense she can weave in and out of center stage very well and be safe. So, attempting to DD out of range or wave dash back out of her max range would only put you further from the ledge. I am thinking you have to be a bit more aggressive, but that too is what she wants so that she can be out of the way when you swing and hit right back. So, I am sort of at a loss of how that match-up should be approached in neutral.

To break up the jiggs match-up, I feel the main goal is to still maintain center stage, but you have to more aggressive about it somehow. Edgeguarding to seek out a KO doesn't really seem possible other than to edgeguard to maintain your control of the stage. The low-mid percents seems to focus more on only building up damage. High percents then can you seek out the KO with something like Uair, Fair, Utilt, etc. As for combo opportunities, you want to focus more on building up damage, so if you can Fthrow tipper, than fthrow -> fair would set-up for more damage.

The game is complex. Start with a simple rule or a few then work backwards from there.

Fox:

-Pin him by the edge

-Get him to commit then punish him or make it to where he can't avoid your attack

-Get a grab


Or for Puff:

-Get her in her shield

-Keep her above you

-Get a grab(not as necessary here but it helps)


Honestly the grabs part is like getting center stage with Marth but for my own purposes of writing these I'd include it haha. That's just because sometimes I try not to grab a whole lot though.


Then from each point you work backwards. You already know you want center, but what other goals do you want? What other positions are advantageous/do your want when you have center? Go beyond the goals common to all matchups and start writing simple objectives there and work backwards imo.



I like this idea and think it can be really helpful. =)

 

[Metal Reeper]

Crouch>utility wrecks jiggs

 

[Blistering Speed]

The Moon vs Chillindude.

I feel the need to highlight this set, because it provided a personal base reminder that Marth's a ****ing ridiculous character who, frequently, doesn't require the convolution we devote to him. There's a lot to be said for the Drephen-esque system of play.

Note: I realise the Moon is occasionally simplistic to a fault here, and the Fox is playing like a heterosexual moron, but there are so many isolated situations where I would have implemented something unnecessarily extraneous, and ... the Moon just forward smashes to the same effect.

TL;DR: Cut the wheat from the chaff.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

It might work for the Moon but that style isn't for everyone. Playing pure fundamentals takes a lot of restraint, and some players simply don't benefit from holding themselves back like that. I know for myself in particular, the faster I'm moving, and the more options I'm cycling through, the better I play. I've tried slowing down deliberately many times and its always disastrous lol...unless the "slowing down" is part of my movement (a la Cactuar), and not just something I'm doing just to do it

Also, going for easy, but inefficient, punishment options is something I'm fundamentally against; even though I can see how it can lead to success in tournament in the short term, I believe its ultimately detrimental when going against opponents who can touch of death you at will.

But I respect Moon's style and I think there is a lot to learn from it. I appreciate his dedication, and am happy he is trying to take Marth in an unorthadox direction.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Furthermore, its ****ing hard to throw ~30 fsmashes a set and hit with all but one (like he did against Chillin). Especially against good players.

Its ridiculous that he can even do that.

 

[Deleted member]

It might work for the Moon but that style isn't for everyone. Playing pure fundamentals takes a lot of restraint, and some players simply don't benefit from holding themselves back like that. I know for myself in particular, the faster I'm moving, and the more options I'm cycling through, the better I play. I've tried slowing down deliberately many times and its always disastrous lol...unless the "slowing down" is part of my movement (a la Cactuar), and not just something I'm doing just to do it

But I respect Moon's style and I think there is a lot to learn from it. I appreciate his dedication, and am happy he is trying to take Marth in an unorthadox direction.

On the contrary, he's playing marth correctly. Look at his stage control, his punishment options, and his risk/reward scenarios. Marth is a character based on restraint because deviation from what makes him good punishes him so very hard. Options are for fox.

Furthermore, its ****ing hard to throw ~30 fsmashes a set and hit with all but one (like he did against Chillin). Especially against good players.

Its ridiculous that he can even do that.

It's a little on the silly side, but not that far. Watch again, and consider why it's working for him. You're a smart guy, you should figure it out.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

It's a little on the silly side, but not that far. Watch again, and consider why it's working for him. You're a smart guy, you should figure it out.

Well the primary thing to notice is the nature of the fsmashes; he limits its use in the neutral and uses it to further his advantage (either in punishment or through position).

On the contrary, he's playing marth correctly. Look at his stage control, his punishment options, and his risk/reward scenarios. Marth is a character based on restraint because deviation from what makes him good punishes him so very hard. Options are for fox.

You're probably right and I'm just being stubborn with deconstructing (or constructing? depends on how you look at it I guess) my game. Its notable that I've felt that almost all my advancement has been through tech (learning a new nutty punish, better aerial control, movement tricks, etc etc), and I don't really know how to go about improving fundamentals. I feel to a certain extent my basics have been getting better naturally but then I watch a guy like Moon and I know I'm missing something.

I'll watch it again.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Empty sh is too good

 

[odinNJ]

Probably the first time someone says Ganon might be good.. lol. But ya I dont care which stage you pick, the result will still remain the same. =)

He's no falco, but he's broken in the sense that his aerials are each an individual truck

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Probably the first time someone says Ganon might be good.. lol. But ya I dont care which stage you pick, the result will still remain the same. =)

I wish marth could combo with the same moves he killed with...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I wish marth could combo with the same moves he killed with...

Ignoring the time when sheik gets on the stage repeatedly, Fsmash combos into itself.

 

[Divinokage]

I wish marth could combo with the same moves he killed with...

You may be able to do that with reads but definitely no combos.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

You may be able to do that with reads but definitely no combos.

I was referring the fact that ganon combos and kills with fair...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel to a certain extent my basics have been getting better naturally but then I watch a guy like Moon and I know I'm missing something.

No. Don't add more f-smash. I'm telling you this straight up it will do more harm than good.