Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Beat!]

I don't agree that "react faster" is legit advice for grabbing tech in place shine.

If you're standing next to them, you can react in time and get the grab. I do it, and I've seen lots of others do it. Just look at good Sheiks.

If one could simply "react faster" and do that then you wouldn't even need to chain grab or use uthrow combos, you would just tech chase them forever without having to make any predictions

What I said was:

I never said you should "rely" on it (sometimes it's worth going for, sometimes not. Depends on positioning, mental state etc.) or that I expect Marths to "perfect tech chase" (you don't even need to tech chase anymore after getting the grab. Just upthrow or throw them off stage).

I've never said that you should react to the tech in place regardless of the situation (as I've already said, sometimes it's good and sometimes not), or that you should keep going for tech chases after getting the grab. At the risk of sounding like a wannabe-debater, please stop straw manning.


To be completely clear, I'm mainly advocating reaction --> grab when you stand right next to the spacie as they tech in place. It's obviously much less plausible if they're a bit further away.

 

[knightpraetor]

and i was not saying you shouldn't hard read, just that grab is a pretty poor way to do so. If you have time to set up a techchase you usually have time to hit tipper fair or dair into grab instead. That said i can understand that sometimes they fall too fast for that..in those situations reacting to tech in place is what i always do

..but i don't react fast enough to grab them before they can shine..i just space so that their shine/jab doesn't matter and chase whatever they do.

most common response once i start using this is for them to tech in place and queue roll away. i could hard read tech in place..but falco/fox at the edge do not scare me...once they are at the edge they are practically dead.

but if they aren't doing this and are just teching in place and shining then if you space your grab properly it's fine to try to react cause the worst that can happen is they can queue spotdodge (doesn't help them that much) or queue roll

anyway i practically always react like you said..it's the option i use 80% of the time. I'm just saying that most of the time you aren't going to react faster than the shine unless you are superhuman or something. I guess I can believe that some people have faster reflexes than me, but I notice from watching that neither PP nor M2k react with grab fast enough to avoid the shine. M2k more than PP likes to hard read a lot..but you also see lots of places where he just grabbed and whiffed because he assumed tech in place

Also, if those good sheiks include M2k and Kirbykaze I could point out a few places where it cost them hugely because they reacted too slowly and ate the shine.

anyway no one is saying that the advice to react is bad. I just think that you made it sound way too much like they are just going to 100% techchase fox/falco all the time. Fox/falco are amazing at preventing that because the best way for marth to do a perfect techchase is to overlap during the tech animation (though against people with bad tech rolls you can pretty much do whatever you want) and grab as you go through them if you find yourself dashing through and they don't start moving forward with you

 

[Beat!]

I just think that you made it sound way too much like they are just going to 100% techchase fox/falco all the time.

I find that very hard to believe considering all I said at first was that it isn't a bad option, and even after that I made it very clear that I don't think it's the go-to option in all situations.

But yeah, I agree with most of what you said in that post. The part about it costing you hugely if you react too slowly is completely true, but I didn't deny that it's a high risk-high reward option. It's certainly not something you should be going for if you don't feel confident.

 

[Mahone]

damn beat

You just got served

 

[Beat!]

Man, now you guys even have freaking Mahone on your side. Not fair.

 

[Mahone]

Naw ill forgive u cuz u have to play pal marth, thats punishment enough

 

[knightpraetor]

typical marth boards..here we are arguing about some nearly irrelevant point.

So that marth vs samus matchup. Anyone have any tips? I just do whatever because marth has a sword, but having a gameplan would be nice

lol pal marth. I don't understand why more people don't play peach and jiggs in pal. It's so weird!

also, i'm not going to apex cause I don't have any money. I owe mahone 30 bucks too. I need to look for a job now that i have a graduate degree

 

[Beat!]

@Mahone

That's painfully true. I do have NTSC on usb though, so I get to use his swag dair sometimes at least. Satisfying as hell.


@Marth vs Samus
Uuuuuh, I try to stay outside of her melee range, but close enough to punish missile attempts, and then I just try got get her into the air somehow (upthrow, dtilt to force her to jump, stuff like that) and juggle like it's my job.

You probably know all that already, though, haha.


Going off stage for edgeguards is really good and quite safe in a lot of situations if you do it correctly. It's a bit hard to explain in detail, but I suggest you experiment with it (if you aren't already). After a while you'll learn the timings.

 

[Bones0]

lol pal marth. I don't understand why more people don't play peach and jiggs in pal. It's so weird!

Because people don't pick characters based on how good they are (at least to a certain extent). They pick them based on fun-ness, and it just so happens that the good characters are also fun to use. That's why Jiggs is good, but unpopular. Most people would not consider her style of precision spacing with minimal button-pressing fun. That's also why spacies made up a majority of the population before they were even good (lol @ spacies being top tier in '02).

 

[odinNJ]

marth v samus, isnt that matchup just avoiding/attacking missles until you can get her above you (she has no options when you are below her)

(super tl:dr)

 

[Mahie]

Just powershield the missiles and wait for her to approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MgV3_uUgxh0#t=809s

You want her to be in the air and just keep juggling her, and be very patient in order to DD Grab her dash attacks / WD stuff.

Imo the issues in the MU come from a lack of patience, Samus can deal damage if you let her get a couple good reads, so you need to play tight and eventually she'll do something bad I guess.

 

[odinNJ]

also be careful recovering, missles can kill marth easily when hes recovering. I like fair to stop them

 

[Tarv]

I don't know why Samuses don't mix up their projectiles more. Smash missiles are great but regular missiles have their place too. Might help throw off people's timing a bit. Also, Samus' are a lot harder to play against with platforms since they can missile cancel with platform drops (doubling or even tripling their missile output) which makes power shielding really difficult. I agree that you have to play patient against her but I feel like it's more difficult than just, "Wait until they do something bad"

Two of the biggest problems I have with facing Samus are recovering against her, and edge guarding her. I am getting a little bit better at edgeguarding (try to mess up her bomb jumps, be patient, or just ken combo the *******) but any Samus worth their salt isn't linear in their recovery at all.It's still pretty difficult since it seems like I have to wait until 200% to get a kill on her most of the time. Recovering against her is a whole different story. Every time I'm knocked off the stage I feel like I should just let the stock go. Even if I get pass the barrage of double and triple shot missiles and make it back to the stage there's usually either a Utilt, a fsmash, or a bomb drop waiting for me. Even if I do get back to the edge there doesn't seem to be a safe way to get back on stage. Rolling just gives her more time to start kicking my *** again, she can just CC fairs, nairs, basic attacks and uairs from the edge, and to top it all off jumping over her just puts you in a bad position.

As for the match-up itself I definitely agree with what was said above; you have to be patient you can't go aggro against her and expect to win. However, I think the match is a little bit more difficult than just camping her out and dishing out good spaced fairs. Samus' can play a pretty decent aggro style if there's an opening but most of them are going to go for the campy/gimp methodical way of playing but don't underestimate their combo game. I don't know, my training partner is a Samus main and he crushes me pretty much every time we play so I'm pretty biased. I should put up a video of us playing the next time we get a chance (and if I get a camera).

 

[MasterShake]

LOL is that a guaranteed powershield? **** yeah.

 

[Mahie]

I don't know why Samuses don't mix up their projectiles more. Smash missiles are great but regular missiles have their place too. Might help throw off people's timing a bit. Also, Samus' are a lot harder to play against with platforms since they can missile cancel with platform drops (doubling or even tripling their missile output) which makes power shielding really difficult. I agree that you have to play patient against her but I feel like it's more difficult than just, "Wait until they do something bad"

I agree with all of the above. It's way easier to deal with her with some extra room, and I would rather go to DreamLand than FoD I think, assuming I'm in the mood for a long, long game.

Two of the biggest problems I have with facing Samus are recovering against her, and edge guarding her. I am getting a little bit better at edgeguarding (try to mess up her bomb jumps, be patient, or just ken combo the *******) but any Samus worth their salt isn't linear in their recovery at all.It's still pretty difficult since it seems like I have to wait until 200% to get a kill on her most of the time. Recovering against her is a whole different story. Every time I'm knocked off the stage I feel like I should just let the stock go. Even if I get pass the barrage of double and triple shot missiles and make it back to the stage there's usually either a Utilt, a fsmash, or a bomb drop waiting for me. Even if I do get back to the edge there doesn't seem to be a safe way to get back on stage. Rolling just gives her more time to start kicking my *** again, she can just CC fairs, nairs, basic attacks and uairs from the edge, and to top it all off jumping over her just puts you in a bad position.

And that is exactly where I usually lose patience ! After working so hard to get a stock from her, than getting gimped really fast, I just tend to want to go in, but this is where you should just stick to what works and keep going with the same gameplan. It's doable to go out against Samus and to mess up her bombs, especially when they cancel your aerials and allow you to quickly upB back to the stage, while she won't really be able to punish that.

Getting back onto the stage thing is really hard against all characters, not just Samus. I think it's once again a matter of patience. When you watch M2K's Marth, he has no problem with stalling the edge for 10 seconds until the opponent lets him back on. If they try to approach and be greedy, you just fair them back, then edgehog instantly again.

As for the match-up itself I definitely agree with what was said above; you have to be patient you can't go aggro against her and expect to win. However, I think the match is a little bit more difficult than just camping her out and dishing out good spaced fairs. Samus' can play a pretty decent aggro style if there's an opening but most of them are going to go for the campy/gimp methodical way of playing but don't underestimate their combo game. I don't know, my training partner is a Samus main and he crushes me pretty much every time we play so I'm pretty biased. I should put up a video of us playing the next time we get a chance (and if I get a camera).

And yes her combo game/gimmicks potential is no joke imo, but good reaction and proper distance should prevent most of the neutral game BS. It's hard for her to really go in without gambling on something a bit unsafe though, so you need to make her think twice by capitalizing on whatever she lets you have, juggle her with uairs or something.

Also, be patient.

 

[Tarv]

I agree with all of the above. It's way easier to deal with her with some extra room, and I would rather go to DreamLand than FoD I think, assuming I'm in the mood for a long, long game.

I usually try to avoid FoD at all costs. Her recovery is already insanely good to begin with, especially on FoD. I've dealt with grapple to wall jump off the point of the stage to up+b recovery to know that try to edge guard her there is just a real pain. That being said I feel like the three stages that work best against her are BF (recovery is difficult for her since she has to be very precise about grapple), YS (severely limits her recovery, no room for her to escape Uairs and fairs, Marth's insane range comes into play here) and FD (no platforms, wide open space to camp). DL and PS are pretty neutral stages imo.

And that is exactly where I usually lose patience ! After working so hard to get a stock from her, than getting gimped really fast, I just tend to want to go in, but this is where you should just stick to what works and keep going with the same gameplan. It's doable to go out against Samus and to mess up her bombs, especially when they cancel your aerials and allow you to quickly upB back to the stage, while she won't really be able to punish that.

Yeah, the match is just about playing tight and keeping your composure. But it can be damn frustrating sometimes, heh.

Getting back onto the stage thing is really hard against all characters, not just Samus.

I agree to extent. However, no other character can threaten to kill you when you're off the stage so safely without having to leave the stage, except maybe peach and falco.

And yes her combo game/gimmicks potential is no joke imo, but good reaction and proper distance should prevent most of the neutral game BS. It's hard for her to really go in without gambling on something a bit unsafe though, so you need to make her think twice by capitalizing on whatever she lets you have, juggle her with uairs or something.

Also, be patient.

Just wanted to say that I agree with the above. I suppose it's just one of those easier in theory matches, at least for me in any case.

 

[Mahie]

I agree to extent. However, no other character can threaten to kill you when you're off the stage so safely without having to leave the stage, except maybe peach and falco.

I meant specifically getting from the ledge to the stage, not recovering from afar. If they stay at about ledgedash length, it's pretty hard to get back on usually.

 

[Tarv]

Oh, right. I agree

 

[knightpraetor]

i think my main problem is edgeguarding her more efficiently. samus seems to edgeguard really well. forces you low and then gets a free ledge hop nair/wd on smash. from neutral marth just seems super favored though.

I don't know how samus would go aggro on a marth unless the marth is playing grounded.

maybe you want that grab too much?

can samus CC tipped dtilt into dsmash at 0%? anyone know? I figure her CC is the best in the game, but I don't know how good.

 

[Deleted member]

can samus CC tipped dtilt into dsmash at 0%? anyone know? I figure her CC is the best in the game, but I don't know how good.

yeap lol she sure can, but she has to start it like immediately and it hits while she's sliding away. it looks glorious.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i remember getting wrecked by this in a match with redd. pretty important thing to remember.

Also, don't complain about difficulty getting back on stage after grabbing the ledge. samus has it soo much worse.

I remember redd quit playing this against me cause he kept quitting out, not because he was losing, but because he would spend 35 sec recovering just to get knocked off again when trying to regain stage. we even ran out of time. marth does box out on samus really easy once she can no longer CC dtilt

 

[pewpewyou]

I've never posted here before and I haven't exactly read through any of these posts so don't hate me for asking, but...

PP, what are your thoughts on how "tournament feasible" Marth really is?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm betting on the bare bones argument from PP. Make few mistakes, he's good for tournament. Make a lot of mistakes, he sucks. That's really the only thing I "ever" hear regarding this character.

 

[Bones0]

That's the only thing I ever hear regarding Melee in general. lol

 

[outofphase]

that was a good question ppu. ive wanted to hear a top player give their thoughts on that.

my own question: why did you start playing marth pp?

 

[knightpraetor]

as the only one who actually plays marth to any extent in real tournaments, shouldn't you be the one answering that PPU?

 

[odinNJ]

I think he is checking his own logic with that of pps. He knows what he thinks but wants another opinion. nothing wrong with that

 

[Niko45]

Lots of stuff destroys fsmash spam edgeguarding lol

I wouldn't read into the moon vs chillin set very much.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, glad i'm not the only one who thought that most of what he was doing was suboptimal. I can also edgeguard people with 3rd hit side b if i time it right..that doesn't mean i should.

i guess it was swag though. He did beat chillin using a million fsmashes. I liked the ones when chillin was on the sloped platform though

 

[PolishSmash]

I use to main Marth when I didn't know how to Shuffle. Now that I learned how to I would like to ask for some help on how to Ken combo. Do I have to learn SH Double Fair? What part of the blade do I have to hit them with? I was trying at my friends house but I can't get it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Fair a high level cpu across the stage at mid percents.

 

[AustinRC]

Okay guys I'd like some critique on these matches if you all would please. Excuse any technical errors and what I mean by that is if you see me full hop dair or nair that was probably a wavedash dtilt or wavedash grab....ect! Be as mean as you want just post something insightful with it please. Trying to trim off the fat before Apex.

Marth Vs Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GKeg5QdSiA
Marth Vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGisquIN6LE
Marth Vs Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSiU9uDlFhM
Marth Vs ICies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNRpbFZ3CCU
Marth Vs Sheik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSMObI87CU4&list=PLJ_fmBeIteWfh6yXSeVxqU7ETCRVy1rOd

Like I said all critique is welcome and thank you for your help!

 

[MT_]

Both sides of the Marth vs Marth would be tight.

 

[Bl00dyBizkitz]

The important thing about ken combo is your target has to be in the air. To do this, you can uthrow, fair them on a platform, or catch them on the air with fair. Also, if they're right next to the edge, tipper fair to dair can do the trick.

 

[Deleted member]

you both missed an incredible amount of free kills in the marth dittos. the main missed two that I see is waiting for the side B stall in a juggle (actively looking for it and punishing it) and drop off bair from the ledge. you should both also stop doing dash attacks, forward throw, and nair basically at all. some of the forward throw set-ups were ok (you want to do it by the edge to encourage bad DI, but you have to do it FAST because there's no reason to DI it poorly for any reason other than missing it on reaction) but the other two could be cut completely and you might be strictly better for it. look how much both of you cashed out hard on those upthrow set-ups and try to maximize those. also get used to looking for WD OOS as a means to get out of awkward situations, the bairs and dairs OOS are incredibly weak not only in the match itself but also are particularly weak to the WD OOS itself for the timing advantage it gives you for getting the opposing marth's l-cancel lag. if for some reason you notice that the opposing marth isn't waiting for you to take an action before trying to react to you in his juggles, by all means air dodge into him and buffer DI down for auto-correct DI if he throws you again or a free crouch if you get grounded before he hits you. he'll still have an advantage on you but it's better than just being juggled for free, even if they have you sometimes you can just stoneface it and disrespect his coverage and he just might punt the juggle for not doing it correctly.

that one ledge invincibility lasted forever lol

 

[AustinRC]

Not all but quite a few of those dash attacks were supposed to be run canceled dtilts. I would agree with you that I need to bair off the ledge more, I'm just sometimes scared of going too far out for it. Dash attack and forward throw I can understand are generally bad because they are pretty situational but still have uses. Dash attack covering people's run away and forward throw to combo into fsmash for bad DI. But why don't you think nair is good to use in this matchup?

 

[Deleted member]

i named basically the only time you'd want to forward throw.

you can run extra far when your opponent dashes away and dash attack but dtilt/grab are going to be better depending what you want to do. as your opponent forfeits stage, a dtilt is going to either pin them to the edge for positional advantage, hit them off and set up advantage on the edge, or IASA a grab set up for the otherwise mediocre fthrow > fsmash/ftilt at the edge if you expect your opponent to block your dtilt and have bad throw DI/reaction speed. grabbing is the same except you skip the IASA footwork and you get to avoid low damage crouching. from the grab you can again forward throw at the edge or upthrow, mimicking either dtilt or dash attack anyway but more importantly you're not using a laggy mediocre attack in a match based around ground control where the best shield option is often WD OOS. also crouchgrab is a thing.

nair is the same, where the best thing to do in the marth mirror is to stay grounded in the neutral game and nair is not only not doing that, but it's also easily punished by dashgrabs like all the other fast characters do. like even if you were going to aerial an opposing grounded marth for some reason, why would you pick the one with the least amount of range? i don't advise landing in an aerial against a grounded marth in the mirror, but if you must do it, fair as close as possible > dash in past marth's extended shieldgrab range or tip it and dash away instead. like, landing in nair can even be punished by dash attack. surely you must see where this is going.

drop bair edge guards are fairly situational and an early up B can make them risky. as usual with marth, try to base it around reaction and not as a pro-active play so you don't commit to any risky lines of play when you don't have to. so wait for the opposing marth to side B and hit him or try to cover his options. eventually you'll get a feel for it just from doing it, and you'll be able to experiment with it on your own and to extrapolate your own conclusions when using it.

i think i covered everything you posted. i think.

 

[AustinRC]

Hm... Makes sense, thanks for the post. I need to work on my execution it was definitely a little sloppy. I'll keep these things in mind next time I'm playing. Thanks Umbreon!

 

[odinNJ]

marths throws on marth are akward, i dont like them. also WDOOS is amazing because any fsmash onto shield is a guarenteed grab pretty much.

 

[Battlecow]

I guess we know why a zen liked spamming fsmash so much

It worked at home