Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[odinNJ]

they are very fun,
fthrow fsmash is hilarious in the MU

 

[MasterShake]

No guys.

It's one of the worst mus in the game.

So dumb.

Now a fun mu is marth vs falco if you're the same skill level.

 

[Dr Peepee]

don't have a lot of time,

but Marth doesn't have to have a secondary, it's just an option I wanted to mention. They're top tiers because they can be successful on their own. I only mentioned the Sheik matchup because the jury is out on that one for me due to inexperience.

Marth gets a lot of leeway on punishes because of the way some of his throws and and attacks are pretty unaffected by DI. That gives the Marth player more time to rest after neutral. Adding in the less amount of inputs required compared to spacies and adjusting spacing/zoning tools with slower pacing makes for an easier time handling neutral overall as opposed to spacies who really need to go go go to get a lot done. WD back SH forward Fair slow dash back then in to dtilt/grab punish is way easier than lasers/DD spamming into shine pressure into lengthy-input punishes.

Considering a character's tournament viability might as well include stamina and ease of execution.

 

[knightpraetor]

i will grant the lasers are difficult to space properly; there is a reason most falcos aren't as broken as you. but what combos in this game do you consider difficult? I guess I can grant falco has some combos that are harder than marths if you can consider wavelanding a difficult technique (which i guess relatively it is), but i don't really think combos are that difficult to execute in general. it's memorizing the various percents and DI responses that affects consistency the most. Fox doesn't have hard combos that are commonly used in tourney. I guess if everyone did that raynex combo that was posted the other day on the boards then maybe..but realistically, most of the combos in this game aren't that hard.

When i think of difficult combos with marth, i can't think of any on fox/falco..it's only when i start getting into weird weight classes where i need char specific knowledge that it starts to matter. even then...i don't think any of them are that bothersome anymore.

for marth what makes things difficult is when the optimal combo at a certain percent is A, but with the platform on pokemon stadium being the proper lengh to nair them onto it you should suddenly do B. But this kind of thing is probably true for everyone to some extent. I don't usually see people dropping combos at high level due to missed inputs; it's usually them attempting something suboptimal or something that would have worked at another percent. When you're in an intense match sometimes you can't find time to check the percent meter till it's too late.

i guess what i'm saying is that when i was saying peach had easier inputs, it wasn't so much the combos being easier to execute that bothered me. I just like that i don't need to look at a percent and judge between the 6 different options i take at different percents; 3 is a lot more manageable

PP play marth at apex some, use him to beat armada..then i'll feel better about his viability. The problem is no one good is actually willing to use him. If you say marth is good and don't play him while m2k says marth is not that good and doesn't play him, whose word is going to carry more weight? My last memory of your marth in tourney is you barely 3-2ing chillin or redd or something.

at the very least do some MM against some respectable players that are actually near your level. A legit set vs KK would be superhype, as would one vs westballz or mango's falco.

 

[MT_]

Marths need to master pivot fsmash so that they can finish all of their combos with tipper fsmash at any spacing. Arc knows what's up.

 

[Beat!]

Marth is awesome. Wait and see.

Happy new year from Sweden!

 

[AustinRC]

Marths need to master pivot fsmash so that they can finish all of their combos with tipper fsmash at any spacing. Arc knows what's up.

You have no idea how happy this made me!

DEAR MARTH BOARDS! DO YOU EVEN PIVOT?!

 

[Diakonos]

Can anyone tell me where I would go to learn the Marth metagame since about... 2009? Have you guys come up with any developments except for maybe reverse fair and having secondaries?

 

[Deleted member]

Can anyone tell me where I would go to learn the Marth metagame since about... 2009? Have you guys come up with any developments except for maybe reverse fair and having secondaries?

you can do dash attacks into no-man's land or only forward throw out of grab.

also stop dashdancing.

 

[AustinRC]

@Diakonos - Like I said earlier do you even pivot? I will show everyone the power of pivoting after Apex or during. Havent decided yet.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do wonder what effective way there is to maximize your punishes on one's own. I suppose the idea of shadowboxing might work? While the CPU cannot mix-up its jumping out of Uthrow if they were sheik, or fast falling an aerial as a spacie in the middle of juggle, you could try to imagine it the places where it might happen.

@Diakonos - Like I said earlier do you even pivot? I will show everyone the power of pivoting after Apex or during. Havent decided yet.

While pivoting into jab or Ftilt is pretty cool, I wonder if there is much purpose in learning it when there are other methods which are easier and probably less prone to error.

In most situations I imagine, you can just retreat out of the way or wave dash back against pretty much any character that is slower than Marth. A turn-around SideB is faster than anything Marth could do out of a pivot and interrupts an aerial approach just as well than any sort of jab, ftilt, or fsmash. The only downside being the percent and knockback reward. It still messes with people though.

And I cannot imagine what purpose there is in pivot Fsmash at any spacing when there are a variety of other methods. Canceling a dash with a crouch works at pretty much any long range spacing, and wave dash is generally good enough for any close-quarters Fsmash spacing.

 

[Stylez]

I like pivot nair

 

[Diakonos]

you can do dash attacks into no-man's land or only forward throw out of grab.

also stop dashdancing.

I got the memo re: dash attacks, but what do you mean by "only forward throw out of grab". Does that mean uthrow and fthrow are no longer viable?

@Diakonos - Like I said earlier do you even pivot? I will show everyone the power of pivoting after Apex or during. Havent decided yet.

The idea of pivoting in order to get the tipper each time is intriguing, but it sounds quite difficult. I do pivot nair sometimes.


And can someone please tell me how I can use dtilt effectively? Or show me vids of someone doing it well?

 

[clowsui]

Nah Umbreon just means that all current Marths are bad and aren't doing the right thing

 

[knightpraetor]

pivoting was really good against jiggs and probably most floaties based on my testing. it would also probably be good if you did it from combos but usually i just take more consistent stuff.

can someone tell me where the recent vids of pewpewu winning a tourney are? i heard they were on twitch tv, but I can't find it

 

[Ether]

This is it, KP

http://www.twitch.tv/meleepacwest/b/348454770

 

[SUNG666]

Pivot F smash tipper is an amazing combo finisher/punish

Gunna go hard on tales of grace real soon >:]

Tipper is godlike

 

[AustinRC]

Thank you guys for backing me up! Sung mm me at Apex $5? Sheik vs marth?!

 

[Vkrm]

What's pp's opinion on PM?

 

[FrootLoop]

pp plays green falco but blue marth. What's the story there?

 

[knightpraetor]

ether, i heard you played mahone. He said you were good^_^

 

[Mahie]

Learning how to properly chaingrab into uair chains into tipper has been the most benefitial thing ever for me recently.

Pivot is also really cool.

Learn how to powershield, too.

 

[SUNG666]

Thank you guys for backing me up! Sung mm me at Apex $5? Sheik vs marth?!

Yea for sure! Ya also needa watch QPAC v Tirno goin down at apex, that set will be legendary

 

[Diakonos]

pp plays green falco but blue marth. What's the story there?

Green Falco IS blue Falco. #elementarymydearwatson

Learning how to properly chaingrab into uair chains into tipper has been the most benefitial thing ever for me recently.

Pivot is also really cool.

Learn how to powershield, too.

Yeah? How do you properly chaingrab into uair chains into tipper? Can you give some details? Do you mean uthrow w/ pivots until 30, tipper utilt (or just regrabs) into grab, then either tipper uair or soft uair into tipper? Is it guaranteed every time? How?And how does this help on tri-platform stages?

By the way, have there been any developments on how to punish fastfallers who just crouchcancel the utilt when they're above us on a platform? I mean, clearly we try to tip it, but even so...?

And, when comboing spacies up onto that top platform on YS/BF/FoD, is it best to waveland onto it and shield for the get-up attack? To wait below and try to hit an uair? To land on a side platform and go from there? To anticipate their wait and punish with a dair to continue the combo? To just fair them off and keep going? Taunt?

 

[knightpraetor]

at super low percent you should just focus on letting them try to get off the platform. hit your uptilt and then follow their move (don't forget uptilt has IASA frames). alternatively you can go for tipper upair at the 20-40 range, which is often better. at low percent i prefer uptilt and just let them CC it, then catch them when they try to jump off the platform.

As for dealing with top platform it's not as simple. A lot depends on the setup that you used to put them on the top platform..if you have time to get all the way up there (rare unless you hit a tipper upair at low percent from under the middle platform (which usually doesn't happen cause the falcos DI towards the side platforms to have options rather than having neutral DI), then obviously full hopping and then reactive waveland or rising upair while landing on top platform based on their tech option is good. Oh you often can get this setup on FD and yoshi's as your full hop carries you closer to the top platform faster.

If you are on a stage with a higher top platform and sent them to the top platform from the main stage, then your followups are weaker as you can't pressure properly when your read is wrong, so if you call tech in place with upair you aren't going to get the other positions and they will get out free(though they still have to get down. westballz had a lot of trouble getting down vs pewpewu despite technically being free from the pain on yoshi's in that recent tourney).

I notice that the marths that are significantly better than me go to a lot of work to avoid sending them to the top platform. often opting for weak hits that send the opponent off to the side platform or into an edgeguard situation. This is superior since often the 50/50 there results in death, while your 50/50 to cover top platform is notoriously weak.

If you upthrow on a side platform and they DI to the top platform m2k's dash dj into fair combo is pretty standard. for tech in place and tech in, I personally use just upair and then land so i can uptilt the other option if i'm wrong, but now that i think about it upairs at that percent usually send them too high so i probably should tip fair the tech in place and then land and uptilt if they roll in.

Another option is to use a rising upair while landing on the top platform and then you get a kill if they tech in place. if they didn't i usually just drop through the platform and start pressuring them from below again.

 

[Diakonos]

at super low percent you should just focus on letting them try to get off the platform. hit your uptilt and then follow their move (don't forget uptilt has IASA frames). alternatively you can go for tipper upair at the 20-40 range, which is often better. at low percent i prefer uptilt and just let them CC it, then catch them when they try to jump off the platform.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for your feedback. I think intuitively I know there are IASA frames, and I'm pretty sure I use them, but I'll try to be more conscious about it.

edit:// Your point about trying to avoid hitting them up to that top platform is a good one. I'll definitely try to opt for the edgeguard instead of continuing a combo up there.

 

[knightpraetor]

be very conscious of it. i used them subconsciously for like a year, switched to using rising upair and then when i tried to go back to using some uptilt i found that things i had believed worked no longer worked. Needless to say I had forgotten the IASA timing. after the swing, while marth is pulling back his head, this is when you can interrupt the uptilt and dash attack

 

[Mahie]

Regarding the CG thing, I think Leffen would be able to give a much more accurate description than me. He's the one who taught me. You want to really minimize utilt use, usually I only do one, just regrab uthrow if they DI away, and regrab or uair at mid% if they don't DI, and eventually uthrow uair fsmash tipper.

On FD it's like 0~90 guaranteed, and on other stages usually you just want to keep regrabbing until they end up on the platforms, or if you're on a platform already, you try to somehow make it end with the uair fsmash or just fsmash if they DI away from the stage.


Also from under a platform , uair --> DJ on the platform uair --> fsmash is a great , great tool. No need for fancy fair stuff when you can just do that and end the stock.


About CCing stuff though : They can't do that if they're still in their teching animation, so you need to make sure to aim during those last frames where they're vulnerable, because as soon as they go back to idle position then they will CC for sure, and then yeah it won't end up good.

 

[knightpraetor]

i thought that even if they don't technically crouch cancel, the ASDI down is enough to let them avoid followups at low percent after uptilt. am i wrong? so many marths are dropping uptilts at low percents so i just let them move and chase them, but maybe it's guaranteed and their timing is just off? or is ASDI down technically enough?

someone with TAS save us!!

and yeah, i do that chaingrab stuff too. I didn't get taught by someone so illustrious though..just Sange

you are europe... thought so. end things with fsmash if they try to DI off stage? why not end them with a spike is what actually went through my head. The last major improvement i made to my marth game before quitting him was to spike falco and fox everywhere from 20-80 off throws if they try to DI off and to quickly read DI's on upairs and just run FH/quick DJ spike. that and a lot more random fair to upair in my combos so that that DI away they all like to do puts them over the edge so you can spike them. Gotta keep them honest...too many spacies these days just always DIing out.

fsmash is good too, but fsmash can be DI'd

 

[Mahie]

Yeah, I guess I was thinking of a %range where tipper fsmash sounds better than the euro ken combo, aka fair reverse upB.

I'm not really sure about the utilt thing myself. To be honest it's something I've been struggling with lately is low% follow up after locking them down on a platform, usually when they're around 10~20%. Maybe waveland regrab would solve my problems... I'm not sure.

 

[knightpraetor]

well personally i think waveland regrab is not that good..you lose control in a lot of positions if they tech in place and have time to queue something. Not to mentions sometimes they go upthere and you don't have time to waveland either or you react slowly. I think following them as they get off the platform is a lot more consistent

 

[Mahie]

I don't know, I feel like it would leave me vulnerable to shield drops, if they do that and I'm just there waiting, they can shield drop dair on something (I'm thinking of Falco here), and then aren't I stuck ?
Maybe go for a counter on reaction - utilt wouldn't get out in time and even then they'd win from trading with the close utilt - but then they would be able to bait that out with shield drop rejump waveland or something, in which case utilt would beat it I suppose.

You end up with some sort of triangle where A beats B and B beats C etc.

Doesn't sound like a situation I want to be in, I hate having to pick my move and gamble on it like that.

Or maybe I'm missing something, like I said it's an aspect of Marth I'm not proficient in.

 

[S l o X]

Yea for sure! Ya also needa watch QPAC v Tirno goin down at apex, that set will be legendary

is that a MM? i thought tirno was from texas too?

marth dittos are the worst thing in the world, keeps me from considering ever going all marth.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yea, I just did some stuff debug. If you get a spacie on a platform and attempt to Utilt, they can ASDI down and it will be enough to slam back into the platform. If they get the tech, then no follow-up on marth will be guaranteed since they can shield the hit. Otherwise, ASDI is not a problem since you can cover the whole platform with Utilt on any of there options from down. And Mahie said, you want to aim for the animation before they can crouch cancel/shield.

I tried this earlier, and so long as a spacie techs in place, then trying to waveland onto a platform after say an Uthrow gives you no advantage whatsoever.

I dunno. I'd say that Utilt is the best and only option Marth has to covering spacies on the platform reliably at the lowest percent range. A FH Uair/Dair does not work for combo off it at the lower percents. SH, then doing an Uair as you are falling is about as good as Utilt, but you could be attacked for get-up attack if you try SH on anything other than dreamland.

If you get the Utilt off, then it either puts them right back on the platform for another Utilt off a tech chase, or off it where you can grab or Fair/Uair/Nair as they get off. The only downside too is if they specifically plan to DI the Utilt just enough to platform cancel off the edge and Bair you in lag.

Either way, I think spacies have some sort of get-out for free method if on the platforms. So, I can see the point in getting them off it and into an edgeguard as soon as possible to capitalize on the hit.

 

[Bones0]

Just do dumb f/dthrow-dtilt stuff to Falco from grabs, imo. Unless you're on FD where it leads to a free tipper or nair and you can easily edgeguard high % recoveries, the damage doesn't even seem worth it unless you're just looking for some consistent damage to make sure you kill them next stock. With all of the new ways people get out of platform combos (sliding off instead of teching, sliding off from shielding hits and then immediately attacking, light shielding and just FHing away, and even shield dropping), I don't see Marth's platform combo game improving much. Of course you should still use platforms, just don't rely on them. If you are in the middle of PS or something and you want to set up a tipper, sure, let them DI onto the platform because it's pretty safe. You'll have time to react to their tech option with an fsmash, and even if they slide off they're likely to get hit by the fsmash anyway. Once you get into top platform stuff, you start relying on shield pokes and gimmicks to make them miss techs, and even when you make it through all of that, you can't kill them cuz Marth. I think Marths in general should try to keep opponents at fairly low %s where he can get legitimate KO followups like Ken combo or fair to up-B or grounded fair into fsmash, etc. Once they get to high %s, none of that stuff works and Marth has to play much more predictably because only a few things will actually help him get a KO.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My impression of avoiding f/dthrow on spacies is that those are just tricks mostly. Things which have to rely upon your opponent to mess up on in order to profit off of. And any sort of strategy which has to rely upon your opponent to mess up on in order to succeed is not a reliable one in the long one if you plan on improving.

CG -> Utilt/Uair -> Edgeguard on FD is a 0-death without having to worry about the spacie messing up. Once you get a grab, you will be certain of death provided you yourself do stuff right. While fthrow -> dtilt might work at the ledge, it doesn't always work since you have to make sure the spacie messes up by not DIing away in the first place.

But, tech chases should be guaranteed too though. I just suck at them and would rather deal with limited options a spacie has when in an Utilt or on a platform.

 

[Bones0]

If you think dthrow, turn around dtilt, regrab is a gimmick, I don't think you've seen enough M2K... Best case scenario when this happens to me is I get a slide off onto the ledge and ledge dash back on. Worst case scenario is I get touched and die. I'll prefer getting uthrown all day before having to choose between getting tossed off stage or being forced to tech predictably. I just shield drop out of everything though, so perhaps I'm biased.

 

[Mahone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...6XLl27U4&list=UUyWpghmjzCZFB94gD4_YBEw#t=150s

 

[AustinRC]

I do wonder what effective way there is to maximize your punishes on one's own. I suppose the idea of shadowboxing might work? While the CPU cannot mix-up its jumping out of Uthrow if they were sheik, or fast falling an aerial as a spacie in the middle of juggle, you could try to imagine it the places where it might happen.


While pivoting into jab or Ftilt is pretty cool, I wonder if there is much purpose in learning it when there are other methods which are easier and probably less prone to error.

In most situations I imagine, you can just retreat out of the way or wave dash back against pretty much any character that is slower than Marth. A turn-around SideB is faster than anything Marth could do out of a pivot and interrupts an aerial approach just as well than any sort of jab, ftilt, or fsmash. The only downside being the percent and knockback reward. It still messes with people though.

And I cannot imagine what purpose there is in pivot Fsmash at any spacing when there are a variety of other methods. Canceling a dash with a crouch works at pretty much any long range spacing, and wave dash is generally good enough for any close-quarters Fsmash spacing.

I'm not talking about pivoting into jab's or ftilt. Pivoting aerials/ fsmash is where its at.

You can use pivoting in this manner as a punish after doing a late aerial on shield, it covers quite a few options such as grab/ spot dodge and jumps. Or just use it as a defensive option, if fsmash tippers someone's shield you are safe because of the hit stun it does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD1jGS4ypBY#t=0m38s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNRpbFZ3CCU#t=7m50s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Z1HLPBHR8#t=2m48s

OR you can use it to end combos/ punish tech's onto platforms and combo after throws when people DI correctly with pivots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN5eunaS0zg&list=PLJ_fmBeIteWfh6yXSeVxqU7ETCRVy1rOd#t=4m21s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGisquIN6LE#t=6m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGisquIN6LE#t=9m36s

These are just SOME examples.

Yea for sure! Ya also needa watch QPAC v Tirno goin down at apex, that set will be legendary

Oh damn, didn't know that was happening! MAI BOI GOT DIS! I could never 1v2 Tirno and someone else buuut well yeah you know ;P HAHA!

 

[Bones0]

I was using pivot fsmashes occasionally, but this thread reminded me of it, and I started using it more last night. I just need to get better at tipping them so if they get shielded I don't get wavegrabbed OoS.