D
Deleted member
Guest
Kevin, if you practice really hard, one day you'll be as good of a player as Bones.
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
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outofphase
Smash Apprentice
//i.imgflip.com/79cbk.gif
Has anybody ever experimented using boost grabbing in place of DDing into a JC grab? It seems to allow you to explode a long distance in the opposite direction very quickly. I might look at the actual difference in speed tomorrow, but at the very least I think it has a much more deceptive looking visual for them to react to.
Has anybody ever experimented using boost grabbing in place of DDing into a JC grab? It seems to allow you to explode a long distance in the opposite direction very quickly. I might look at the actual difference in speed tomorrow, but at the very least I think it has a much more deceptive looking visual for them to react to.
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Bones0
Smash Legend
That was really confusing for me to read since my name is Kevin.
Also, look at that fsmash spacing on that outlet. Impeccable.
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outofphase
Smash Apprentice
Alright so a boost grab arrives on target at the same frame as JC grab. It seems to essentially be a trade between 10 extra frames of lag and being slightly more deceptive. I'm thinking its uses are limited to times when you believe the opponent can react to your change of direction since it is a more spastic movement when compared to a dash into JC grab. The increased lag will probably not be worth this unless you are desperate.
PCwizCube
Smash Cadet
I have a question about Marth's up-B. Can his up-B sweetspot the ledge? If so, is it difficult to pull of fconsistently? And if it can sweetspot, can it avoid things like another Marth's f-smash/d-tilt?
I've seen PewPewU/Mango avoid each other's f-smashes when they were in Marth dittos but sometimes when M2K faced DrPP he got f-smashed/d-tilted/faired really easily (and even against my Marth LOL).
Also someone told me if you sweetspot Marth's up-b you can also avoid Dr Mario's cape. Is that really possible because Dr Mario's cape covers a lot of vertical range and it KILLS ME EVERY TIME (unless I switch up the timing or hit Doc's feet first).
I've seen PewPewU/Mango avoid each other's f-smashes when they were in Marth dittos but sometimes when M2K faced DrPP he got f-smashed/d-tilted/faired really easily (and even against my Marth LOL).
Also someone told me if you sweetspot Marth's up-b you can also avoid Dr Mario's cape. Is that really possible because Dr Mario's cape covers a lot of vertical range and it KILLS ME EVERY TIME (unless I switch up the timing or hit Doc's feet first).
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Bones0
Smash Legend
Sweetspot is a really misleading term because whether a recovery is safe depends on the move the use. I'm gonna just go ahead and say I highly doubt any non-teleport recovery can get to the ledge if Doc times his cape properly. Just look at the hitbox on it... Marth's fair and dair also go much too low to be sweetspotted under, and I don't think you can even vertically sweetspot under Marth's dtilt or fsmash. What you can do is aim your up-B as far from the ledge as possible in order to get around attacks if they are too far on stage. The mixup options I always have in mind are:
1. Barely land on stage
2. Horizontal sweetspot around their attack
3. Up-B into the ledge to hit the opponent and/or get the ledge tech
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
Who here knows how to fight against a platform camping fox? I played against one today, and barely won. I three and four stocked him on FD and PS, lost on battlefield and yoshi's, and won the final game on FoD. We are going to play another high-stakes game soon. If he wins, he gets my controller (****s real), and I need to figure out how to counter this strategy. If anyone has any advice or any links to videos, it would be greatly appreciated.
outofphase
Smash Apprentice
Alright. I have spent the last four days doing this....
Also, just wanna thank anybody who's posts helped me realize all of this. Mainly Mow and PP, but I read alot of everyone else's posts as well.
....and I think I have come to some serious revelations about this game and this character. I tried applying some of these concepts in an extremely raw form without having practiced them or having anything even resembling a full understanding of how/why they work at a tourney on Saturday to what I feel was great success. I didn't beat anybody I normally wouldn't have, but I understood why I was losing in real time and where I was making mistakes. Ultimately, my awful habits proved too hard to break in such a short period of time, but I still learned a lot about positional advantage and how to eliminate options from my opponent while retaining my own. After finishing the rest of the reading, I feel like I am finally at a point where I can begin to play this game for real. I saw some of the posts I had made a long time ago and they seem so petty and ridiculous now. Its only been about a month since I began to take this game seriously for the first time, but I have a hugely different mindset about it now. I have always been good at critical analysis (although I hate that term), but I always had difficulty applying it to Melee until recently. I've come to realize I wasn't able to recognize situations for what they are, and I was often not breaking situations down as far as they could go. If you are feeling like you're on a plateau or just starting out, I would suggest you do this as well. Even if you don't quite understand at first, it will click eventually. I would also say that you should watch videos from a critical standpoint (again hate that term). Make observations about every situation and action until you have enough information to draw conclusions. Keep your observations and analysis based in fact, do not assume player intention or attempt to relate things with no direct connection to one another. Write these down, or at least say them out loud. Putting it into words is helpful because a large part of a person's conscious thought is processed into/through language, but the point is to think about it actively, not so much to manifest your thoughts into a form that can be interpreted. Once you can do this, it makes it much easier to get what others mean when they talk about the game, sort of exponentially growing your ability to understand the game.
Also, just wanna thank anybody who's posts helped me realize all of this. Mainly Mow and PP, but I read alot of everyone else's posts as well.
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the wizard howl
Smash Apprentice
yooooo, I was literally just re-reading that thread. It's pretty useful.
Umbreon, do you mind if I PM you some questions?
Umbreon, do you mind if I PM you some questions?
D
Deleted member
Guest
i don't mind answering any questions, but i'd prefer you keep them here so that more people can benefit from whatever it may be.
even i spent some time with kevin yesterday, he was helping me to break a habit of mine.
he also trash talked me. we were playing and he said "hey max, 2004 called, it wants that combo back"
burned/10
even i spent some time with kevin yesterday, he was helping me to break a habit of mine.
he also trash talked me. we were playing and he said "hey max, 2004 called, it wants that combo back"
burned/10
max you look like you came off of one of those VCR vids
D
Deleted member
Guest
you're just mad that you had to nair my kirby.
your mario 3 skills are soft like egg.
your mario 3 skills are soft like egg.
lmao the innovation we had in that matchup was real. can't tell me dash attack and nair don't have a place umbreon mow from pennsylvania!!!
also I whupped you on the levels I knew to play
also I whupped you on the levels I knew to play
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
I feel like the only times you two post in here anymore is to have fun with each lol
D
Deleted member
Guest
no no the idea is that everyone is supposed to be able to beat 1-1 and 1-2.
we can talk about other stuff i guess. i reiterate that following the opponent closely in neutral only really works when you have some kind of offensive momentum, because operating too close for your own reaction time is basically begging for disrespect conversions without positional advantage. or maybe it's okay and i just suck idk.
i can't believe you skipped the boot.
edit: guys we found a use for marth's nair and dash attack, in the same match no less: you nair and dash attack the crouching kirby to knock him over because kirby doesn't have the OOS game to make marth care about the risks to dash attack and he doesn't have the dash speed or crouch weight to beat point blank non-spaced nair lmao.
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Beat!
Smash Master
Don't be too hasty. If he's jumping around on platforms then you have more horizontal freedom than he does, so take your time getting to the position you want (usually below him, but be flexible if the situation calls for it). Make him feel the threat of your fair and uair sharking without actually having to commit to them constantly (empy hops and good dashdancing helps accomplishing this). This is a lot easier on YS because your sword covers like half the stage and SH uair reaches the top platform, but with a little extra patience it's quite doable on BF as well. Also realize that while chasing with FH aerials is usually an unnecessarily risky commitment (and generally what a platform camping Fox wants you to do), the fact that there's no way for a Fox on a platform to be completely safe from it shouldn't be overlooked.
It basically comes down to Fox wanting you to feel like it's the same kind of neutral position you'd have against a grounded Fox except he's more difficult to reach, where as you want him to feel that being on a platform is an uncomfortable and disadvantegous position.
I find it a bit difficult to properly explain this over written text in a way that isn't either non-specific, ambiguous or obvious, but I hope you found this at least a little bit helpful.
Don't be in the air too much. My guess is that you jump at him and then leave yourself vulnerable. Marth actually hates being in the air until he is comboing, hitting, or setting up for a punish. His speed drops dramatically in the air in terms of acceleration, so he is sort of a sitting duck (unlike the speed at which you can change direction on the ground with dash dancing and wavedashes). If you get underneath the platform he is on, you should be able to scare him away and possible get some up-tilts or short-hopped up-airs or fairs. If he knows how to shield drop, be wary of using slow attacks on his shield when he is on the platform. Look for shield pokes and be patient.
If he jumps away all the time when you get underneath the platform, follow him a little bit. Similar to how marth hates being in the air most of the time, almost everyone hates being in the air against him. Jump up and wait. He will fall into you because he falls very fast. If he does nothing, you get a free up-air (he should not even be able to trade with your up-air in this position). If he double jumps, try to go to where he is landing - possibly double jumping yourself, but don't always double jump, it is super dangerous unless you can guarantee a hit. Anyway, it should be an easy punish once you have him in the air like this. If he doesn't jump away from the platform, walk around and wait underneath it until you can shield poke or he spot dodges or something.
Kadano
Magical Express
Stay patient.
If you have the stock/% advantage, stay in the middle of the stage and don’t jump at all, unless you see him coming into your range.
If you don’t have the advantage, use your short hop to bait his jumps and react accordingly. It’s a winning situation for you unless you commit early (which is what many Marth players, including myself, do all too often).
Once you made him use his double jump, push on where he is falling to, but always watch out for his airdodge and waveland options. A “push” can be an attack or just a threatening position. Both put pressure on him, and eventually he will be trapped.
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Bones0
Smash Legend
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Zinth
Smash Apprentice
Why isn't there a stickied-quality Marth matchup thread?
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- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,560
NonSequtur
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2014
- Messages
- 35
I think it's the syllable arrangement, three quick single sounds. At the very least it reminds me of Fast Like Tree.
Onto the question!
I've been having trouble consistently killing MewTwo and Yoshi, given the (as far as I can tell) near impossibility of edge-guarding and juggling them. I've just been beating my friends who play those characters by winning the neutral the majority of the time, but I think if they got a little better it would become even more frustrating. Any tips on killing/edge-guarding them, or, if that doesn't work, any character specific neutral game advice, so that I might keep a bit of an edge?
Onto the question!
I've been having trouble consistently killing MewTwo and Yoshi, given the (as far as I can tell) near impossibility of edge-guarding and juggling them. I've just been beating my friends who play those characters by winning the neutral the majority of the time, but I think if they got a little better it would become even more frustrating. Any tips on killing/edge-guarding them, or, if that doesn't work, any character specific neutral game advice, so that I might keep a bit of an edge?
Bones0
Smash Legend
You can gimp Yoshi, even out of his armor, with pretty much any tipped move. Know when they are going to airdodge and cover the stage or ledge on reaction. Yoshi's airdodge has to be pretty high in order for him to grab the ledge. Just keep tipping... just keep tipping...
NonSequtur
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2014
- Messages
- 35
Really? I thought you needed at least 120+ knockback to hit him out of it. Every time I hit him he just eats it. So, nair if they go high, f-smash on the ground?
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Bones0
Smash Legend
Idk about nair since it doesn't actually have a tip, but fsmash, dtilt, fair, and dair all seem to knock me out of the DJ at really low percents. You should be able to practice on a CPU Yoshi. Just dthrow or something to get him off stage and see what moves interrupt his DJ.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Marth is one of Yoshi's better top tier matchups, and for Marth indeed mostly won through neutral. If Yoshi's DI is stellar and he gets to recover high (as in "has the option to pass by over your grounded moveset"), it's rather hard to consistently get much on him. If he's forced low, it's a different story, tipped fsmash is indeed stupidly good.
Surprisingly even matchup though... you get to hit him more often, but his punishment game is pretty hilarious on Marth (that dtilt gimp <3 :D)
Surprisingly even matchup though... you get to hit him more often, but his punishment game is pretty hilarious on Marth (that dtilt gimp <3 :D)
Sempai
Smash Ace
At low%s(0-20) is the best throw for marth dittos upthrow, then utilts into uairs/fairs?
sometimes I go for fthrow fthrow tipper fsmash cheese at 0%, but that feels like such a cheap gimmick. Also I doubt this works with proper DI (idk what that would be, in maybe?) Is there a better throw combo/sequence for enhancing his ditto punish game?
I apologize if this has been answered already
sometimes I go for fthrow fthrow tipper fsmash cheese at 0%, but that feels like such a cheap gimmick. Also I doubt this works with proper DI (idk what that would be, in maybe?) Is there a better throw combo/sequence for enhancing his ditto punish game?
I apologize if this has been answered already
Kadano
Magical Express
Yes, upthrow is the best. Fthrow/dthrow is always beaten by down and away DI, the enemy Marth doesn’t even need to react (which isn’t possible for humans anyway).
Uptilt after upthrow isn’t guaranteed at all, though. Better wait and react to what he does. He is uncomfortable floating around in the air, so you can capitalize on any escape he attempts. Just don’t be overzealous.
Uptilt after upthrow isn’t guaranteed at all, though. Better wait and react to what he does. He is uncomfortable floating around in the air, so you can capitalize on any escape he attempts. Just don’t be overzealous.
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Sempai
Smash Ace
Is there anything guaranteed off a uthrow or is it more about keeping him above you where hes weak? And/or readin his fear and acting accordingly?
Sempai
Smash Ace
On fair, to reverse UpB combo, where is the sweetspot (tipper) part of the UpB, the middle of his body?
Or if you split his body up into 4 parts 1 being top half and 4 being feet, would it be part 3?
Sorry if that was confusing, looking at the frame data I cant really tell.
Also as a followup question, when would it be better to combo into UpB over dair? When they are really high in the air?
D
Deleted member
Guest
you basically always want to do whatever will kill them. up b is only better in fringe situations when dair won't kill or you can do up B but won't live a dair yourself. as for the good hit, just practice it, you'll figure it out.
Sempai
Smash Ace
Since Marth is strongest when his opponent is above him, well idk about strongest but he sure is in a good postion, is there any real reason to fthrow besides little things like, against falco at zero to build up enough percent to chain grab?
DJ _ICE
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2013
- Messages
- 179
He's also very strong when someone is offstage and to a slight lesser extent when someone is on a platform above him. F-throw can put them offstage and sets up a tech chase on some characters (I want to say Falcon). Theres also the silly F-throw to F-throw at 0% (usually guaranteed if no di) or F-throw to fsmash, tilt or aerial at slightly higher percents.
Regarding edge-guard on Yoshi i have found the last hit-box of the f-smash to be quite effective when Yoshi has to recover from below the edge, hit it on the head. Edit: One reason why that tipper is preferable to the higher ones is that Yoshi when hit out of super-armour often simply falls down; if it already is below the edge it cannot grab it..
If Yoshi has to recover high it has a few more options, so sometimes nothing is guaranteed. Directly attacking the super-armour with an aerial rarely does you any good, often you even get cancel-countered for it with an n-air which might just kill you instead. You can try to bait out some super-armour canceling reaction (attack, air dodge, egg-roll) by doing some empty hops/faux approaches, then hit it back off-stage, at which point it is done for. A Yoshi without second jump can do about nothing, you can just slowly carry it back off with numerous slices as well.
D-tilt is bloody useless in my experience. (Playing PAL, where Yoshi is heavier, 108 -> 111, if that matters. Would guess that the stuff that kills in PAL also kills in NTSC, not necessarily vice versa. And moves that do not work in PAL may actually work in NTSC. Always feeling sorry for Amsa when he gets killed where Heavier-Than-Ganon-PAL-Yoshi would have easily survived...)
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Kadano
Magical Express
Let me quote myself from three months ago: “ From 13-63%, you get a guaranteed uair against Marth from an uthrow, whereas fthrow and dthrow followups are pure gimmick.”
First active frame has the strong hitbox:
After that, Marth starts soaring up and the hitboxes become much weaker:
Up-B has the same knockback as the second hit of your nair. With good DI, most characters can survive it and recover until quite high percents. We PAL Marths are so jealous of your amazing dair spike, it doesn’t really make sense you’d ever go for up-B instead when you could dump them.
Fsmash hitbox attributes (except location, obviously) are the same on all active frames.
More information: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Forward_smash
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Peach's dash attack is really good against your aerials, so don't jump if there's no good reason to (there rarely is)
You can practice catching turnips or nair through them, if you want to do something more agressive (she can't DA when she holds a turnip
).
But usually you're in the position to deny her the option to pull too many anyways (stay close enough to punish the laggy (30f) pull, but outside of her actually threatened space, and she can't do much about it.
You can practice catching turnips or nair through them, if you want to do something more agressive (she can't DA when she holds a turnip
).But usually you're in the position to deny her the option to pull too many anyways (stay close enough to punish the laggy (30f) pull, but outside of her actually threatened space, and she can't do much about it.
Life
Smash Hero
Yo, so I'm trying to unrust my Marth a bit to pass the time. Got a noob question.
One thing I see everyone else do (especially in the ditto) is some kind of running dtilt. I can do run-crouch-dtilt just fine. Problem is that's really telegraphed. I'm pretty sure y'all are doing it out of a dash somehow, and I can't quite figure the inputs out (if I do it the way I usually do I just end up dash attacking).
So basically, if I'm already dash dancing, what's the best way to dtilt? Is there like a wavedash or something somewhere?
One thing I see everyone else do (especially in the ditto) is some kind of running dtilt. I can do run-crouch-dtilt just fine. Problem is that's really telegraphed. I'm pretty sure y'all are doing it out of a dash somehow, and I can't quite figure the inputs out (if I do it the way I usually do I just end up dash attacking).
So basically, if I'm already dash dancing, what's the best way to dtilt? Is there like a wavedash or something somewhere?