Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Xyzz]

The only option to do it directly from a DD is to pivot it, which is amongst the harder things to do in this game. Well, and this is melee we're talking about, so... :D
(http://smashboards.com/threads/secrets-revealed-a-marth-pivoting-tutorial.337593/ if you really want to learn it)

Most people just learn the precise time when their initial dash turns into run and are fine with crouch > dtilt as soon as that happens.

 

[Life]

Alright, thanks. It sounds like it's a little beyond the scope of what I'm doing for now--maybe I'll learn that later when my chance of going to a tournament is better.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yo, so I'm trying to unrust my Marth a bit to pass the time. Got a noob question.

One thing I see everyone else do (especially in the ditto) is some kind of running dtilt. I can do run-crouch-dtilt just fine. Problem is that's really telegraphed. I'm pretty sure y'all are doing it out of a dash somehow, and I can't quite figure the inputs out (if I do it the way I usually do I just end up dash attacking).

So basically, if I'm already dash dancing, what's the best way to dtilt? Is there like a wavedash or something somewhere?

You have exactly one frame to pivot and input a crouch...with the method mentioned by Xyzz. This is something I am pretty sure this fits into the realm of TAS only strats. The real method is recognizing what dash dancing does for you. If you are having very short and compact dashes, then as soon as you go into a long one you would be correct that you are well telegraphed into what you are doing. Therefore, stick with long dashes while using the shorter ones to maintain your dancing when you need to evade something. Therefore, each long dash towards your opponent could be potentially be a grab or turned into a crouch dtilt.

Alright, thanks. It sounds like it's a little beyond the scope of what I'm doing for now--maybe I'll learn that later when my chance of going to a tournament is better.

When you say chances of going do you mean your odds of winning or simply getting transportation out to a tourney? If the first option, just go regardless of your preparation.

 

[Life]

When you say chances of going do you mean your odds of winning or simply getting transportation out to a tourney? If the first option, just go regardless of your preparation.

It's more a scheduling thing than anything else. I keep having other responsibilities on tournament dates, which should be less of an issue after the next few months. Thanks tho.

 

[Socrates]

Is there any "general combo advice" anyone could offer?

What I mean is, I'm having troubles as of late following up on openings with any sort of combo. I do really well in the neutral game (hitting openings, getting grabs, etc.) but then as soon as it comes time to convert, I mess it up somehow. The last tournament I was at I was playing friendlies with a higher level player and when I asked what I was messing up on he said "it seems like every time you get a combo set up you just sort of run away".I don't feel like I'm running away exactly, but I tend to keep my space due to my terrible combo game. I'm not really sure what to do about this

 

[SCC_Habanero]

If you know your combo game is terrible, that might be what to focus on. On hit, you need to make sure you have a good positioning of the situation to continue your attack strings, which sounds like something you may not be confident with. Say you get a grab, you want to get your guaranteed followups at all times. If you miss a followup, you have tools like Marth's strong dash dancing to reposition your self and react to your opponent rather than run away and resetting your previous advantage. Keep a strong mental game when doing your combos, and just make your sure you're practicing a bunch without auto-piloting on these particular things.

 

[Xyzz]

Watch a ton of videos, experiment with followups yourself, and always try your ideas on people you play against.

Or just remember you're playing Marth and throw them up in the air and catch them as they're coming down again, haha.

 

[Beat!]

If you really, REALLY want to do a dtilt mid-dash and pivot dtilt (understandably) feels to difficult then WD down -> dtilt is an option. Not as fast but it's easy to execute.

Is there any "general combo advice" anyone could offer?

Fall in love with uair. Sends upwards which sets up juggles even if you drop the combo and leads to ****ing everything anyway and the hitbox is enormous and the non-tip hitbox makes it work even at high percents and holy **** it's so good aweradfasdasfd.

But seriously. Uair.




Also, in case there's anyone who actually hasn't heard yet, Team Liquid has picked up melee, which means there's going to be a surge of new players, not just here and on reddit, but also on the smash subforum on TL (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/smash-bros/). Make sure to drop by every now and then in case there are beginner Marths who need help over there.

 

[Mahie]

That Team Liquid piece of news makes me want to grab the european crown and put it on my Marth.

Hyped. Up.

 

[Xyzz]

That Team Liquid piece of news makes me want to grab the european tiara and put it on my Marth.

Hyped. Up.

Fixed this for you

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I would think that in this era of melee it is just recommended to pick one of Peach, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, Fox, or Falco. At least, if your long standing goal is to make top level play. Doc, Falcon, and Falcon have not exactly shown to be top 4 material except on sparse occasions.

But, I have no idea for teams. People tend to tell me that Marth is fairly bad. However, I have no idea how bad that is exactly. Is it bad enough that characters like Ganon make much better teams characters? Overall, I am not certain whether to spend my time learning another character just for teams or to simply stick with Marth despite his disadvantage for teams play.

 

[AprilShaw]

Do you have a dedicated teammate? The way I see it, if you would be happy with being as good as PewPewU and SFAT are in teams, you'll be fine playing Marth. However, Marth more than any other character imo benefits from having a dedicated teammate, as it's really important to have a strong understanding of what the Marth player is going to do if he's on your team.

Personally, I don't like Marth that much in teams because of two things. One, his moves require a lot of precision to be effective, it's not like a Fox or Peach where you can just throw stuff out and if it hits you're good. And two, he has a lot of trouble pushing people out of his way. Like, a Falcon or Fox can get from the left side of the stage to the right side pretty much regardless of what's going on in the middle. Marth has to be very careful about who he's going around and how he goes around them. But neither of these are crippling issues, they're just things to be conscious of when practicing teams.

Marth also does especially well with certain characters imo. I will never, ever play Marth/Puff, and rarely will I play Marth/Sheik or Marth/Falco. I really only like him with a "bully" on his team, ideally Fox, but Falcon or Peach can work well too. You want someone who can get in there and 1v2 while you poke at the brawl to keep things favorable for your side, as well as continue combos on characters sent your way. At least, that's my playstyle as Marth in teams.

So to answer your question, yes, Marth is fine in teams. But he will probably take more work than another character, and doing pickups will be noticeably more difficult. Hope this helps

 

[Xyzz]

I think the main problem with Marth in teams is that it's too easy to pick on him. He can't take abuse for a long time like Falcon or Ganon and lacks a good "get the **** off me"-move (like shine or whatever).

And I think there's actually a few characters (next to) nobody would place in the same tier as marth for singles that are better than him in teams, because their biggest weaknesses are nicely addressed by the format. E.g. Ganon suddenly can't be camped that easily anymore, or Pikachu doesn't have to go through the grueling process of slowly racking up percents.

 

[PCwizCube]

I have a question about powershielding falco's lasers.

Dr PeePee and some other people have said that a good strategy to PS lasers is to dash back and shield. What's the point of that exactly? I know it powershields (and it's easier if Marth is dashing), but can you do anything after that? I mean, you just dashed away from falco, so you're decently far away from him, and then you just PS'd. But because you dashed back you're too far from him to punish him further right?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm just confused on what's generally a good thing to do after PS lasers (besides run in and PS --> shield grab). I don't really see too many Marths doing dash back --> PS either.

 

[KingDozie]

Ok i was playing marth dittos and re watching those matches. I was getting fsmash alot and fthrow to fsmash, How do you punish that fsmash and DI that grab combo.

 

[PCwizCube]

Ok i was playing marth dittos and re watching those matches. I was getting fsmash alot and fthrow to fsmash, How do you punish that fsmash and DI that grab combo.

If you DI all the way away, F-throw --> F-smash should never connect. You have to be DI'ing all the way though - if you DI only a little bit you could get tipper'ed by the F-smash.
For punishing F-smashes, I don't know what specific instance you were talking about but if you know he's going to do one, you can shield --> wavedash out of shield into grab/attack.

 

[AprilShaw]

I have a question about powershielding falco's lasers.

Dr PeePee and some other people have said that a good strategy to PS lasers is to dash back and shield. What's the point of that exactly? I know it powershields (and it's easier if Marth is dashing), but can you do anything after that? I mean, you just dashed away from falco, so you're decently far away from him, and then you just PS'd. But because you dashed back you're too far from him to punish him further right?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm just confused on what's generally a good thing to do after PS lasers (besides run in and PS --> shield grab). I don't really see too many Marths doing dash back --> PS either.

I don't think I've ever seen Marths doing this. Usually you want to dash in and power shield to get a safe grab. I could see dash back, power shield, dash attack back in maybe being a thing, but not something I'd want to use as a regular part of my strategy.


Also, I have a question. I have really bad consistency issues with Marth. I play most of the top tiers fairly well, and while I've played Marth the most by far, I'm way more consistent with Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Peach. Anybody else have this issue? Just something with Marth, or maybe I'm just bad? I love Marth's movement and I think his combo game looks awesome, so I'd like to play him more, but I just have no luck with him in tournament :\

 

[Mahie]

Dashing away does two things in regards to Powershields.

1. It makes their speed 'lessen', because you are moving in the same direction as them. That means they will catch up to you slower, which also means the timing will be easier to nail. Dashing towards the laser also allows to control the powershield window to some extent, by knowing you will meet the laser much faster. Dashing away offers more control though.

2. It changes Marth hurtbox a bit so that the laser can come closer to him in a dashing position. If you shield from there, the laser is more likely to be 'inside' your shield, meaning it's a free powershield if that's the case.

Dashing away is not too much of an issue when it comes to stage control. Wavedash Dash > Dash attack / Wavedash Grab covers a gigantic amount of space.



EDIT : If you get grabbed in Marth dittos, hold down.

If you want to get more consistent, learn not to leave the ground as Marth. Anytime you do, you're gambling, so try to limit that if possible. Air Marth is tempting though, so it might be difficult haha.

 

[PCwizCube]

Dashing away does two things in regards to Powershields.

1. It makes their speed 'lessen', because you are moving in the same direction as them. That means they will catch up to you slower, which also means the timing will be easier to nail. Dashing towards the laser also allows to control the powershield window to some extent, by knowing you will meet the laser much faster. Dashing away offers more control though.

2. It changes Marth hurtbox a bit so that the laser can come closer to him in a dashing position. If you shield from there, the laser is more likely to be 'inside' your shield, meaning it's a free powershield if that's the case.

Dashing away is not too much of an issue when it comes to stage control. Wavedash Dash > Dash attack / Wavedash Grab covers a gigantic amount of space.



EDIT : If you get grabbed in Marth dittos, hold down.

If you want to get more consistent, learn not to leave the ground as Marth. Anytime you do, you're gambling, so try to limit that if possible. Air Marth is tempting though, so it might be difficult haha.

Ok thanks that makes sense. I found a video where DrPP did it a few times (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMfFXU1okSw&t=2m19s) and I can see how he punished off if it (what you said) but it still looks weird to me haha (and he didn't seem really consistent at it). I guess I'll try to implement that though! Thanks

 

[Strong Badam]

played melee for the first time in like 6 months and upthrew people and then killed them with marth
fun times

 

[ShroudedOne]

You mean you didn't forward throw them!?

What are you doing??

 

[Hagakure623]

Is back air oos a usable technique? Jump is 5 frames, back air comes out in 7 (slower than other aerials) but it starts right next to/behind marth.
How do you people input for instant uairs? I am using x and up and a, but I keep messing up the fast fall.
I cannot powershield consistently (yet); as I understand marth can sh over lower lasers and dash attack under higher lasers; are there any other anti-laser techniques I should be aware of?

 

[Bones0]

I think the main problem with Marth in teams is that it's too easy to pick on him. He can't take abuse for a long time like Falcon or Ganon and lacks a good "get the **** off me"-move (like shine or whatever).

Counter is the best "get the **** off me" move in the game imo.

Is back air oos a usable technique? Jump is 5 frames, back air comes out in 7 (slower than other aerials) but it starts right next to/behind marth.
How do you people input for instant uairs? I am using x and up and a, but I keep messing up the fast fall.
I cannot powershield consistently (yet); as I understand marth can sh over lower lasers and dash attack under higher lasers; are there any other anti-laser techniques I should be aware of?

Marth's jump is only 4 frames. But regardless, yes, bair OoS is quite useful. Just pay attention to the opponent's spacing. If they're right on top of you, bair is too slow and it's just no good. If they make you shield and aren't immediately within range, you can bair OoS to protect yourself and it will just auto-cancel as you fade away.

One of the better anti-laser techniques is, ironically, to let yourself get hit by the laser. Not enough players these days know how to take lasers and keep moving. Unless they land close enough that their fast ground moves (jab, shine, and ftilt are the most common) can hit you, the laser won't combo into anything. If you are in the air, getting lasered will interrupt whatever you doing and actually allow you to fair them on reaction to getting hit by the laser. On the ground, you can utilt, dtilt, ftilt, or DD grab Falcos that like to SHFFL immediately following their lasers (i.e. 99% of all Falcos).

 

[Xyzz]

Whoaa, I always thought counter would take longer to come out... feels way slower than frame 5. I'm not quite sure how it would work out in practice, since it is quite a bit different than more conventional fast attacks. Haven't really seen much use of it in "they're doubleteaming me, but left a small break" - situations, but well, there's quite a few things we don't see as often as we should :D

Regarding bair OOS: If they do laggy stuff behind your shield, I think I'd choose dair over bair any time. Might be a frame slower than the bair (because the hitbox needs to travel behind you), but the payoff is going to be a lot better.

 

[TY SoapBoxFan]

Hey guys, I am just starting out in smash, although I come from a backround of Mk9 and Injustice, and I have a pretty simple question, I think. I have waited to really post until I have gotten to the point that I am now implementing Dash dancing, wave dashing, L- canceling, etc. into my game. Therefore, I am just starting to feel like I can control the match instead of it being an all out **** fest that lower level smash can be. My main problem right now seems to be fighting opponents at very low percents. Once I get them up to a percent that some juggling becomes more practical, I seem to do okay, but I struggle to get to that point without taking large risks. Obviously my main tool in these situations is my grab (and luckily these aren't to hard to get with Marth's exceptional range) but I was wondering what other tools I should be trying to use to get that initial start against my opponents.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Do you have a dedicated teammate? The way I see it, if you would be happy with being as good as PewPewU and SFAT are in teams, you'll be fine playing Marth. However, Marth more than any other character imo benefits from having a dedicated teammate, as it's really important to have a strong understanding of what the Marth player is going to do if he's on your team.

Personally, I don't like Marth that much in teams because of two things. One, his moves require a lot of precision to be effective, it's not like a Fox or Peach where you can just throw stuff out and if it hits you're good. And two, he has a lot of trouble pushing people out of his way. Like, a Falcon or Fox can get from the left side of the stage to the right side pretty much regardless of what's going on in the middle. Marth has to be very careful about who he's going around and how he goes around them. But neither of these are crippling issues, they're just things to be conscious of when practicing teams.

Marth also does especially well with certain characters imo. I will never, ever play Marth/Puff, and rarely will I play Marth/Sheik or Marth/Falco. I really only like him with a "bully" on his team, ideally Fox, but Falcon or Peach can work well too. You want someone who can get in there and 1v2 while you poke at the brawl to keep things favorable for your side, as well as continue combos on characters sent your way. At least, that's my playstyle as Marth in teams.

So to answer your question, yes, Marth is fine in teams. But he will probably take more work than another character, and doing pickups will be noticeably more difficult. Hope this helps

I think the main problem with Marth in teams is that it's too easy to pick on him. He can't take abuse for a long time like Falcon or Ganon and lacks a good "get the **** off me"-move (like shine or whatever).

And I think there's actually a few characters (next to) nobody would place in the same tier as marth for singles that are better than him in teams, because their biggest weaknesses are nicely addressed by the format. E.g. Ganon suddenly can't be camped that easily anymore, or Pikachu doesn't have to go through the grueling process of slowly racking up percents.

I suppose then what the qualities that he might possess that are poor for teams. In general, I have a very poor understanding of how teams operate correctly. Once that is addressed is there really a teammate that can help to alleviate some of those faults? Otherwise, I think I would just stick to picking up Sheik or Peach strictly for teams.

 

[AprilShaw]

Playing Marth in doubles is similar to playing someone like Luigi or Samus in singles. It can work just fine, but you will have to work harder than other players. Though it's worth mentioning that matchups don't mean quite as much in doubles as they do in singles.

 

[Xyzz]

Peach is really strong and fun in teams, just saying :D
Worst thing about her in singles is that she's so slow and her opponent gets to run circles around her and just go in once he's created a good opportunity... which he really can't afford in teams ("oh, you're not going to fight me, let's see how your partner likes being 2vs1ed").

But well, Marth works okay (especially with fox, imho), so I dunno if it's worth going through the trouble of learning to play her just for teams.

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys, I am just starting out in smash, although I come from a backround of Mk9 and Injustice, and I have a pretty simple question, I think. I have waited to really post until I have gotten to the point that I am now implementing Dash dancing, wave dashing, L- canceling, etc. into my game. Therefore, I am just starting to feel like I can control the match instead of it being an all out **** fest that lower level smash can be. My main problem right now seems to be fighting opponents at very low percents. Once I get them up to a percent that some juggling becomes more practical, I seem to do okay, but I struggle to get to that point without taking large risks. Obviously my main tool in these situations is my grab (and luckily these aren't to hard to get with Marth's exceptional range) but I was wondering what other tools I should be trying to use to get that initial start against my opponents.

Grab really is just super crucial at low %s. There are other tools you can use, but they almost all are a means of leading into grab instead of "raw" grabs straight from neutral. The main tools you can use to lead into grabs better (and very occasionally start combos from) are:

- dtilt: use it out of a run by holding down (run cancel) or a wavedash; after you dtilt someone, they usually shield, and if they don't, they're usually jumping or dashing away from which you can start a juggle or do another dtilt respectively (dash attack after can be good, but it will be a read)

- fair: you HAVE to tip at low percents or you WILL get CC-wrecked

- nair: learn to auto-cancel your nairs, and it becomes good for zoning/walling/baiting; you can nair outside of their punish range, then DD grab their approach; like with dtilt, it probably won't knock them over, but you can run up grab and you'll see a lot of rolls, spotdodges, etc. which can all be punished with grab

 

[TY SoapBoxFan]

Grab really is just super crucial at low %s. There are other tools you can use, but they almost all are a means of leading into grab instead of "raw" grabs straight from neutral. The main tools you can use to lead into grabs better (and very occasionally start combos from) are:

- dtilt: use it out of a run by holding down (run cancel) or a wavedash; after you dtilt someone, they usually shield, and if they don't, they're usually jumping or dashing away from which you can start a juggle or do another dtilt respectively (dash attack after can be good, but it will be a read)

- fair: you HAVE to tip at low percents or you WILL get CC-wrecked

- nair: learn to auto-cancel your nairs, and it becomes good for zoning/walling/baiting; you can nair outside of their punish range, then DD grab their approach; like with dtilt, it probably won't knock them over, but you can run up grab and you'll see a lot of rolls, spotdodges, etc. which can all be punished with grab

At least I know I was on the right track with the grab haha, thanks. I'll look into the nair thing.

 

[Niko45]

gawdamn watching norcal tournies get me too hyphy for Melee. I wanna playyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[T-R3X]

"Dashdance takes away the dtilt option (unless you can consistently pivot dtilt, and I don’t think anybody will manage to do so) which is quite a loss. Unfortunately, using walk and dtilt instead will often slow you down because you get stuck in things like the Turn animation. I believe wavedash is a bit underused in neutral."
basedKadano said this in his thread; has there been a discussion on this? what do you smart people think?

 

[Life]

^

You have exactly one frame to pivot and input a crouch...with the method mentioned by Xyzz. This is something I am pretty sure this fits into the realm of TAS only strats. The real method is recognizing what dash dancing does for you. If you are having very short and compact dashes, then as soon as you go into a long one you would be correct that you are well telegraphed into what you are doing. Therefore, stick with long dashes while using the shorter ones to maintain your dancing when you need to evade something. Therefore, each long dash towards your opponent could be potentially be a grab or turned into a crouch dtilt.

 

[Roche_CL]

What i do is combine dashdance with wavedashing.
Just approach carefully with dasdance and when you see a chance just wavedash into your opponent -> Dtilt -> run as fast as you can outta there. Also you can simply dash -> crouch -> dtilt, dash cancelling with crouch is real.

 

[Mahie]

As far as I know you can only run cancel pressing down?

And yeah you can still jump out of dashes so you can wavedash and combine both. Mixing dashes and wavedashes is faster than a run anyway!

 

[AprilShaw]

I remember years ago I asked about this same topic, how do I dtilt someone who is close to me out of a dash dance. They told me to just wavedash, but honestly, these days I find it a little slow. The problem with wavedashing is, it's 14 frames of lag, and unless you make a habit of wavedashing into stuff in neutral, your opponent will pick up on your wavedashes and know you're about to dtilt. This can lead to some ok mixups into grab (if they like to shield the dtilt) or fair/nair (if they like to jump out), but overall, you'll be slowing yourself down. It's not quite as safe as it seems. If someone gets too close to me, and I don't feel comfortable going for a grab, I'll usually just try to get away from them and reset to my ideal spacing. Or if my pivoting game is on, I'll throw in a pivot ftilt here and there to make space. You can also do shield stop aerials, but as with all Marth aerials, you need to use them sparingly and make sure you don't miss.

Another option is to just wavedash a LOT in neutral, just purely for movement. This can serve to cover your wavedash approaches. I don't really play like this so I can't speak to its effectiveness but if you really like to wavedash, it's worth considering.

 

[PCwizCube]

I remember years ago I asked about this same topic, how do I dtilt someone who is close to me out of a dash dance. They told me to just wavedash, but honestly, these days I find it a little slow. The problem with wavedashing is, it's 14 frames of lag, and unless you make a habit of wavedashing into stuff in neutral, your opponent will pick up on your wavedashes and know you're about to dtilt. This can lead to some ok mixups into grab (if they like to shield the dtilt) or fair/nair (if they like to jump out), but overall, you'll be slowing yourself down. It's not quite as safe as it seems. If someone gets too close to me, and I don't feel comfortable going for a grab, I'll usually just try to get away from them and reset to my ideal spacing. Or if my pivoting game is on, I'll throw in a pivot ftilt here and there to make space. You can also do shield stop aerials, but as with all Marth aerials, you need to use them sparingly and make sure you don't miss.

Another option is to just wavedash a LOT in neutral, just purely for movement. This can serve to cover your wavedash approaches. I don't really play like this so I can't speak to its effectiveness but if you really like to wavedash, it's worth considering.

In response to the last paragraph, Hax does this a lot with his fox right? Someone told me he's always wavedashing so he can do most moves easily right out of it like shine and stuff.

 

[Kadano]

Here is a comparison of pre-dtilt movement options:

Run-cancel dtilt: 18 frames startup (15 frames Dash, 1 frame Run, 1 frame RunBrake, 1 frame Squat), high range. Low range variability (the control stick’s x value determines dash speed). #It’s hard to be frame-perfect here. If you aim for 0 wasted frames, the input move is pretty much like a pivot ftilt, just downward instead of forward. You need to hold forward until Run 1, then have the control stick in any position except forward (this includes strong¹ down, but not weak¹ down) for 1 frame to trigger RunBrake. After this animation’s first frame, you need to hold strong down¹ for at least one frame to transition into Squat. Afterwards, you need to either hold strong down for another two frames (this would increase the total startup to 20) so that the smash input is disabled (otherwise, you would do a dsmash) or return the stick from strong forward to weak forward in order to dtilt.
You cannot hold strong down during Dash to disable the smash input because doing so would not make you transition from Dash to Run.

Wavedash dtilt: 14 frames startup (4 frames Kneebend, 10 frames LandingFallSpecial), medium range. High range variability (wavedash length scales with the control stick’s x value much more than dash speed). #It’s easy to be frame-perfect here. You can start holding strong down at any time from LandingFallSpecial 1-6 to get the dtilt (and not the dsmash). Weak down is also more viable here as you do not need to quickly move to it from strong down, which is a pretty hard thumb motion to do consistently.

Dash-wavedash dtilt: 15 frames startup (1 frame Dash, 4 frames Kneebend, 10 frames LandingFallSpecial), highest range. Highest range variability (in addition to wd dtilt, you can also add a few frames Dash to further increase your range and still stay below the time necessary for run-cancel dtilt). #It’s easy to be frame-perfect here. The input is mostly the same as for wd dtilts, just with a dash at the beginning.

Pivot dtilt: 5 frames startup (4 frames Dash, 1 frame Turn). Short range. Low range variability (dash for more frames if you want to go further. Can only be done out of a dash swipe that moves away from your dtilt direction). #Very hard to execute. During Dash, you need to go to strong back for exactly one frame to trigger Turn. For frame perfection, you need to press weak down +A on the very next frame.

Edit: Proof that DWD moves further than run-cancel:

This is an overlay of both techniques’ post-dtilt ECB²s, which are a great reference for positions.

Even more information:

¹Strong inputs: can trigger dash, turn (pivot) and smashes. Weak inputs: can trigger tilts.
²Environment Collision Box, used for detecting landing, ceiling and wall collisions as well as pushing other players around.

 

[outofphase]

So in about a month of working on DDing, pivoting, and exploring the concept of non-committal aggression along with simplifying opposing characters options down to only ones that can produce a solid hit, I made more progress than in the past 2 years combined. I played ,by far, the best Melee of my life a few days ago. Game after game, I just destroyed my opponent. He is really good at adapting and normally beats me about 75% of the time, but he simply did not have an answer that worked anywhere consistently enough to beat me. After all the theory and reading and watching I have been doing, I honestly don't think there was one. I leveraged small spacing advantages until I zoned his back to the ledge and then did.... nothing. I just waited until he had to come into my space or jump; only occasionally poking with dtilt or zoning with AC nair to keep the threat present. Even if I got the opportunity for a punish, I only took it if I could either grab , attack>grab, attack>juggle, or attack>edgeguard. Hitting with anything else was a sub-optimization compared to choking out his space because I would eventually get one of those if I kept my aggressive movement and safe attacks on point long enough. I nearly always opted for juggles/uthrow out of grab, always tech chased on reaction, and got a ton of mileage out of pivot tipper fsmash when he tried to DI out of my combos/juggles along with using it to tipper platform techs on reaction. On FoD, I would force a tech on the low side platforms while I had center stage and just pivot tipper if he did anything besides stand up. Since the plats are so low, you get the huge horizontal KB from the lower tipper hitbox as opposed to the awful high hitboxes you get from the high platforms, which lets you kill at crazy low percents since the blast zones on the side are relatively close on that stage. I'm not sure if that "actually works", but I'm fully convinced that non-committal aggression and leveraging small amounts of stage over time is flat out ****ing broken with this character vs. most of the roster.

 

[Life]

Sounds like you're doing well, phase. Could you go into more detail about how you trained?