Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[dRevan64]

Hey pp I was watching you play the past few days at to9/pbnj's house, partly in pm and I noticed you almost never end fair combos with an upb. You'll often finish your strings with another fair or a shield breaker when upb has a decent amount of kill potential. Is the reason you don't go for them just that it's too punishable if you drop it? I find it works surprisingly well and you don't really need to commit to it without knowing it'll connect–that's usually a conversion that works on reaction to DI.
Incidentally that's an option I see a lot more european marths go for because of PAL version differences.
Sorry if that's a question that's been answered before here.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd agree 5 might be a bit excessive but don't you think maining two characters could help you develop different strengths as a player?

at lower end play, i would say yes. once you develop a better understanding of the game, it is better to focus on one character. since the advice was directed at victor, who has taken the appropriate steps to accelerate his understanding of the game, i think it stands firm. i could see it changing depending upon the person though.

 

[BTmoney]

Hmm yeah thanks everyone. The problem is that I pretty much hate one or two things about every character. I pretty much have no qualms with Fox but I get so irritated when I mess up techskill and die for it or lose a game, to the point where I don't want to play the character and quit. There are also days when I just can't get my tech skill together and I just play like **** for the entire day, it's rare but it happens. I've spent the most time with Fox (and Marth) but after experiencing a bit of frustration I've been playing puff lately.

I went puff so I can focus on the mental aspect and slow things down a lot, I have a good amount of tech skill and I know what to do a lot of the time but it's hard sometimes to implement it all while playing fast. So I figured I'll see how good or bad I am actually capable of playing by focusing on puff since she has so much more control over the pace of the match (whether or not you agree with that, that has been in my experience. I feel the same way playing Sheik). I've had pretty good success since I switched but I just haven't played for a while. I still like playing Fox (secondary), Marth is still fun, Falco is still fun, and I wanted to work on a Sheik. Then there's Falcon. You have to spend 90% of your time playing Falcon because that's how this game works.

I think I'm going to try to move forward with Puff and keep my Fox ready. I really only started playing a lot of characters because it's pretty annoying fighting Marth as Puff although I'm getting a lot better at it. And it sucks that my other characters are as good or more tournament ready than my Marth when I love Marth so much <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I could upB and spike better but I'm not comfortable with my combos so I opt to take jumps or get guaranteed damage instead. I should practice with it more in friendlies though.

Also, it's not necessarily Melee but I played all Marth in PM ANNNNND beat Hbox's Puff with Marth(both characters basically the same.) Tipped Off 9 videos should be uploaded sometime soon and it could be cool to watch for anyone learning Marth vs Puff stuff =)

 

[Deleted member]

real talk can you change your avatar off of the dude taking a shit

i'm just over it

 

[dRevan64]

Yeah I could upB and spike better but I'm not comfortable with my combos so I opt to take jumps or get guaranteed damage instead. I should practice with it more in friendlies though.

Also, it's not necessarily Melee but I played all Marth in PM ANNNNND beat Hbox's Puff with Marth(both characters basically the same.) Tipped Off 9 videos should be uploaded sometime soon and it could be cool to watch for anyone learning Marth vs Puff stuff =)

ah alright I gotcha
and I don't know exactly what the differences in marth's dair from melee to PM are but you used it really really effectively against hbox so I'm not totally sure you can play the neutral game exactly the same, that was a pretty crazy set though

 

[AustinRC]

Okay so after a few instances in neutral I get mixed up on playing pro-actively and re-actively. I start getting zoned out and then I just kind of lose from there. Anyone have any insight or help?

 

[BTmoney]

Also, it's not necessarily Melee but I played all Marth in PM ANNNNND beat Hbox's Puff with Marth(both characters basically the same.) Tipped Off 9 videos should be uploaded sometime soon and it could be cool to watch for anyone learning Marth vs Puff stuff =)

Holy ****. Your marth always impresses me more than anything else I've seen in this game, and that's not a generalization.

Can we talk about these meaty punishes you keep on getting out of fthrow and b/dthrow? (vs Hbox and reflex really, anyone know ivysaur's weight?)
I feel like you converted so hard out of those throws, I've never seen so many hard punishes off these throws that don't involve DI'ing into a tipper fsmash.

And can you talk about your side B game? Like how you go about going for it and what you go for afterwards when you can't get a utilt (do you make that decision on reaction)?

 

[AustinRC]

And can you talk about your side B game? Like how you go about going for it and what you go for afterwards when you can't get a utilt (do you make that decision on reaction)?

I can't say I know what exactly PP goes for but I can tell you what I go for. I try and hit puff (or floaties in general) either while they are jumping (like oos or after landing) or when they try to extend too far into me. So like if puff tries to go in hard with a bair or full jump nair I'll side b.

 

[Dr Peepee]

ah alright I gotcha
and I don't know exactly what the differences in marth's dair from melee to PM are but you used it really really effectively against hbox so I'm not totally sure you can play the neutral game exactly the same, that was a pretty crazy set though

You can do that lol. When you have puff pinned like that you can do a lot.

Unless you're thinking of pure neutral, which I doubt I would Dair in haha.

And Blacktician, PM gets me guaranteed Fthrow regrabs at low percent unlike Melee but that seems to be the main difference in the throws haha. Otherwise, I try to throw quickly so they don't have time to plan their DI(going from neutral "I gotta get out of this" to "I gotta DI this" mode can be a transition sometimes.) If you mean something else we gotta get more specific lol.

Side B is a scare tactic sometimes and a kill/combo tactic other times. I use it to ward off approaches but also to threaten that they shouldn't approach or heavily respect my dash. It works well on floaties I find.

 

[Deleted member]

 

[whatwhatwhatwhatwhat]

You guys see Ken beat Fly Amanita at KoC3? (with Marth jank in full display)

I feel like the biggest thing this guy has over people is that he never chokes. He somehow finds some tipper out of nowhere and wins.

 

[Bones0]

Okay so after a few instances in neutral I get mixed up on playing pro-actively and re-actively. I start getting zoned out and then I just kind of lose from there. Anyone have any insight or help?

That's just the natural tendency of the game when all of your options are being removed from you. The less options you have, the harder it is to find opportunities to be proactive without running into a death combo. Focus on putting yourself in situations where you can't lose. If you start getting zoned out (I assumed you meant zoned out by their character, not mentally...), you have to figure out the solution to why you are getting outspaced and counter it. The solutions to these situations will seem risky, but if picking the right solution wasn't risky, then the situation wouldn't really be considered bad in the first place. I think I did a poor job of articulating what I was trying to say, but oh well...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey max F u ima keyblade master

 

[Hagakure623]

A few questions/thoughts:

I'm pretty new to competing in smash, so I've got a lot to develop. After having done some research on here, I think I need to really practice movement and consistently doing fundamental things and also I am trying other stuff (platform wavelands, waveland off ledge, pivoting, shield drops mainly). Currently, my practice routine consists of lots of 4 stock matches. I use level 1 (and occasionally level 3) fox and falco to practice my chaingrabbing stuff. I throw in level 9 peach to practice dash dancing/general spacing (I think that level 9 peach is really good a punishing spacing mistakes, but they rarely dash attack so maybe not). I'll usually play a bunch of games with marth but then I'll play a bunch of characters randomly (against level 1 cpus) namely fox, falco, ganondorf, sheik, captain falcon, mario, dr. mario, and ness. How does this sound? Do I play too many other characters? Are there any specific ways I can practice movement and spacing other than those I described? I have no practice partner. : (

Versus captain falcon
I played a few captain falcons. One I was able to beat pretty consistently just using a bunch of tilts and different timed aerials to wall him off and corner him - that being said, we only played on FD (stage was set on random, but it kept going there for some reason). The other one I played was much faster and had a really good dash dance game (relative to me, at least). How can I beat a campy falcon just dash dancing around?)

Versus sheik
This is more of a general question, but I don't really understand why marth vs. sheik is in sheik's favor. I feel like if marth can stay grounded he wins. And edgeguarding seems about even between them.

Lastly, how do I get it so I grab the ledge super quickly off a wavedash? (ramen noodles? cookie stealing? is that what it's called? :B )

 

[SAUS]

A few questions/thoughts:

I'm pretty new to competing in smash, so I've got a lot to develop. After having done some research on here, I think I need to really practice movement and consistently doing fundamental things and also I am trying other stuff (platform wavelands, waveland off ledge, pivoting, shield drops mainly). Currently, my practice routine consists of lots of 4 stock matches. I use level 1 (and occasionally level 3) fox and falco to practice my chaingrabbing stuff. I throw in level 9 peach to practice dash dancing/general spacing (I think that level 9 peach is really good a punishing spacing mistakes, but they rarely dash attack so maybe not). I'll usually play a bunch of games with marth but then I'll play a bunch of characters randomly (against level 1 cpus) namely fox, falco, ganondorf, sheik, captain falcon, mario, dr. mario, and ness. How does this sound? Do I play too many other characters? Are there any specific ways I can practice movement and spacing other than those I described? I have no practice partner. : (

That's maybe too many characters, but practising by yourself for super long periods of time can get pretty boring, so screwing around with other characters is fine. Just don't try to main all those characters and just focus on marth more. That's how I see it anyway. I like your dash dance practice vs level 9 CPUs. I kind of noticed it is a good way to teach new players how to use dash dancing. What do other people think of this idea? You at least can get the basic concept of bait and punish from it, and you still have to learn how to dash dance decently.

Versus captain falcon
I played a few captain falcons. One I was able to beat pretty consistently just using a bunch of tilts and different timed aerials to wall him off and corner him - that being said, we only played on FD (stage was set on random, but it kept going there for some reason). The other one I played was much faster and had a really good dash dance game (relative to me, at least). How can I beat a campy falcon just dash dancing around?)

If someone is being super campy, try to bait out attacks. You have to learn how to look vulnerable or how to attack while being safe at the same time.

Versus sheik
This is more of a general question, but I don't really understand why marth vs. sheik is in sheik's favor. I feel like if marth can stay grounded he wins. And edgeguarding seems about even between them

I don't think it is largely in shiek's favour, so the advantages are more subtle. I don't really know the specifics though.

Lastly, how do I get it so I grab the ledge super quickly off a wavedash? (ramen noodles? cookie stealing? is that what it's called? :B )

Wavedash and then once you are off the edge, fast fall. Make sure to let go of the joy stick after you fast fall because you will not grab the edge if you are holding down, ever. So just tap it down and let go. I've heard it be called ramen noodle quite a bit but I have no idea why lol

 

[Bones0]

Pro tip: you can input the edgehog FF before you slide off and are actually airborne. Just press down right before you slide off and you won't have to worry as much about not grabbing the ledge (asap).

 

[Xyzz]

Let me guess, it buffers for three frames like mostly everything controlstick related?

 

[Bones0]

Let me guess, it buffers for three frames like mostly everything controlstick related?

Probably, but idk for sure.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

People missing techs on the ground.
a) They will be forced to get up eventually, so wait for them to do something and get a grab because grab is clearly superior.
b) Missing a tech is free move for marth. But, that move is not going to be grab.

What do?

@Haga:
1) Maximize punishes and grind tech junk.
2) Pay attention to opponent. Choose action responsibly in response to their committed option (whenever they stop their DD). Otherwise, you 'push' on their dash back.
3) Because Sheik vs Marth.
4) When offstage, shove down.

 

[dRevan64]

People missing techs on the ground.
a) They will be forced to get up eventually, so wait for them to do something and get a grab because grab is clearly superior.
b) Missing a tech is free move for marth. But, that move is not going to be grab.

What do?

Wait. Your DD game is really good so you can almost always regrab. Shield if you see a get up attack animation start–this is possible on reaction I'm pretty sure but I don't know the frame data for any given character and it doesn't look like the hitbox project has those. What an odd oversight.

 

[Bones0]

You can react to GUA. You can practice all of the techchase reactions on a level 4 Fox/Falco on FD. Just do your usual uthrow CG, and if you drop them, turn to face them and practice reacting. Don't GUESS though. If you can't get 15 correct reactions in a row without accidentally committing to a shield or dash or grab (for getup in place), then you are probably still guessing. CPUs don't tech, but the actual tech options are super easy for me so it's never been much of a problem. Here is how I mentally prioritize each option so I can do a super fast checklist in my head:
A. Confirm if they tech

1. Tech in place​

2. Tech roll away from you​

3. Tech roll towards you​

B. As soon as you react to them missing the tech

1. Getup in place​

2. GUA​

3. Roll away​

4. Roll towards​

I don't focus much on the rolls. With practice, the window of error becomes quite large so I find myself taking my time with reacting to rolls. The important thing is to react to getup in place and GUA properly. If you accidentally shield for GUA and have a sort of secondary reaction to them doing a getup in place, you can shield grab ofc, but you usually won't be reacting fast enough to catch buffered spotdodges, rolls, and immediate shines (unfortunately, these are the most popular options out of getup lol). You will also learn about the different types of GUAs. They vary depending on if the character landed on their back or chest and which side of them you are on (head-side or feet-side). Most characters have an early and a late hit, but you should be able to react to the early one fast enough that it doesn't matter how they land. Some characters, like Falcon, have GUAs that hit on both sides at the same time (or at least it seems like it hits at the same time when he does his breakdance GUA).

All of the tech option frame data were compiled by Magus. Subscribe/watch to this thread to make sure you can always go back to reference it: http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/#post-5896012

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

YoOoOo, how do I keep space better? I was at KoC3 this past weekend, but every time I played a falcon or peach or a character with huge hitboxes I felt I got pushed to the ledge to the point where I couldn't run away anymore where I would get clipped and basically be offstage/gimped sometimes because of it.

I would assume the solution would be to be more threatening with actual moves out of my dash dance, but I'm not sure how I go about safely doing that with a character that jumps a lot. Help? :/

 

[Deleted member]

YoOoOo, how do I keep space better? I was at KoC3 this past weekend, but every time I played a falcon or peach or a character with huge hitboxes I felt I got pushed to the ledge to the point where I couldn't run away anymore where I would get clipped and basically be offstage/gimped sometimes because of it.

I would assume the solution would be to be more threatening with actual moves out of my dash dance, but I'm not sure how I go about safely doing that with a character that jumps a lot. Help? :/

Marth is probably the best example I can think of where "a good offense is the best defense" in a way that isn't cliche or ********. Marth is AWFUL AWFUL at defense. His shield sucks, his combo weight is awful, his recovery is mediore, and his biggest actual weakness is probably on his dash away during DD (and pivot is essential with this character).

Keeping space means you must be VERY aggressive pretty much all the time. For the best players, this usually comes naturally because they're playing to optimize their margin anyway. For new players learning the character this is a very hard thing to surmount. The best way to keep space is to learn how to pivot, how to crouchgrab, and how to stop caring about whether you win or not. Just hunt people down and **** them. The better you get at the character, the more your opponents will not be coming back once you have them dead. And that will solve basically all of your problems.

 

[strawhats]

PPU vs Shroomed (sheik) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFxNrqF0PG0
PPU vs Axe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofTz4L_QUwY

 

[Deleted member]

Hey max F u ima keyblade master

pff f u right back money match

see me at melee i'll take you out

scruba$$ midwest-looking falco

 

[Dr Peepee]

aight let's do this

i'm goin ivysaur

 

[Deleted member]

where did they get you from, gamefaqs? ivysaur isn't in melee

you might need this before we play:

http://www.wikihow.com/Learn-the-Basics-of-Super-Smash-Bros-Melee

this is why i can't stand country folk

 

[Life]

Marth is probably the best example I can think of where "a good offense is the best defense" in a way that isn't cliche or ********. Marth is AWFUL AWFUL at defense. His shield sucks, his combo weight is awful, his recovery is mediore, and his biggest actual weakness is probably on his dash away during DD (and pivot is essential with this character).

Keeping space means you must be VERY aggressive pretty much all the time. For the best players, this usually comes naturally because they're playing to optimize their margin anyway. For new players learning the character this is a very hard thing to surmount. The best way to keep space is to learn how to pivot, how to crouchgrab, and how to stop caring about whether you win or not. Just hunt people down and **** them. The better you get at the character, the more your opponents will not be coming back once you have them dead. And that will solve basically all of your problems.

As a naturally passive player/person, this post has the best words-to-helpfulness ratio I've seen in a while. Thanks.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Improvement.

When you Falcon Uair and hit instead of Falcon Knee and miss.

Also,

discovered

had a child.

So,

became

However,

did a blood test and found out that

was actually the father.

 

[Deleted member]

wat. no.

me and kevin are friends that understand each other and we know when we're both kidding. so i can tell him that he sucks and he can tell me that i'm fat and it's funny. you got this drama thing going on and i don't understand it.

if i actually wanted to hurt him in the feels i'd tell him he plays like mathos and burn down his favorite taco bell. relax.

 

[swanized]

Marth boards should all go get some taco bell at Apex

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMFAO max your avatar is amazing

you douche

 

[Deleted member]

dude you should get a picture of sora with a santa hat so we can witness your holiday emo lmao

my kirby dtilts are better than your marth dtilts because huge swag

 

[KP17]

is dashing backwards out of crouch useful for marth?

 

[BTmoney]

Marth is probably the best example I can think of where "a good offense is the best defense" in a way that isn't cliche or ********. Marth is AWFUL AWFUL at defense. His shield sucks, his combo weight is awful, his recovery is mediore, and his biggest actual weakness is probably on his dash away during DD (and pivot is essential with this character).

Keeping space means you must be VERY aggressive pretty much all the time. For the best players, this usually comes naturally because they're playing to optimize their margin anyway. For new players learning the character this is a very hard thing to surmount. The best way to keep space is to learn how to pivot, how to crouchgrab, and how to stop caring about whether you win or not. Just hunt people down and **** them. The better you get at the character, the more your opponents will not be coming back once you have them dead. And that will solve basically all of your problems.

Can you expand on pivoting, do Marth players implement 1 frame pivots are or are you not talking about true pivots?

 

[dRevan64]

Can you expand on pivoting, do Marth players implement 1 frame pivots are or are you not talking about true pivots?

pewpewu was doing some crazy pivot **** at koc3, I think he was referring more to not quite true pivot grabs/aerials though since consistent 1 frame pivots are muy dificil unless your name is lovage or phanna

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much. i think everyone knows what a pivot grab looks like at this point. get to it.

 

[Bones0]

Pivot grabbing isn't hard to do consistently. Especially for Marth players who have needed pivot grab for spacie CGs since the MLG days (I guess I can't use this term anymore ), pivoting should not be a tech you have to think about.

 

[dRevan64]

Marth 20XX: pivot dtilt