Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

however, i will shamelessly plug myself and leave this here

wut

 

[Deleted member]

however, i will shamelessly plug myself and leave this here

that DI lol

 

[Tee ay eye]

that DI lol

oh yeah the DI was garbage
i was more happy about the movement beforehand

and taj

 

[Bones0]

oh yeah the DI was garbage
i was more happy about the movement beforehand

and taj

When will the world be treated with Tipping Another Illusion?

 

[swanized]

In marth dittos, I have a really hard time getting my fair combos in without getting hit by his own fair in the middle of hit, is there anything I might be doing wrong other then just timing myself badly?

 

[Bones0]

In marth dittos, I have a really hard time getting my fair combos in without getting hit by his own fair in the middle of hit, is there anything I might be doing wrong other then just timing myself badly?

Make sure you're tipping, but even tipped fairs won't combo at low percents. You can FF into shield really quickly or dash away after you land then dash back in after they whiff. Watch M2K and PP's Marth dittos and just watch how they fair.

 

[swanized]

Make sure you're tipping, but even tipped fairs won't combo at low percents. You can FF into shield really quickly or dash away after you land then dash back in after they whiff. Watch M2K and PP's Marth dittos and just watch how they fair.

Oh, when do fairs start to combo?

 

[Deleted member]

To TheCrimsonBlur:

I watched you play on ken's stream just now and I posted advice into the chat but whoever read it aloud read it incorrectly so I'm copying it here:

• Umbreonmow: TCB do you know why you're losing?
  » I'm just trying to be real with TCB since he's been focused on improvement lately​
• 
  Umbreonmow: TCB, ken isn't doing anything you can't do, but his decision-making and tip placement are way better than yours, but you can improve on those things fairly easily​
• » no read my **** verbatim please
  » i think it will really help him
  » or have him read it​

• • Strabisamus: m2k is insane my gawd​
  • Strabisamus: someone explain why top 5 is so much better than everyone else​
  • ModUmbreonmow: m2k has holes to his play too though​
  • » the good players aren't perfect​
  • Rmb11: a top echelon of 4-5 "gods"
    » then everyone else
    » no one is perfect though​
  • Strabisamus: but how are they so much better? theyre not perfect no​
  • Umbreonmow: if you watch the tier 1 players against the tier 2 players like hax, shroomed, ice, etc, it's not that they are significantly better, they just punt the match less, and wait to receive a punt from the opponent​
  • Strabisamus: hmmm i see ill have to watch those vids again
    » but you reckon thats it​
  • Umbreonmow: that's definitely it​
  • Strabisamus: so you dont think they out smart tier 2 players?​
  • Umbreonmow: play m2k and don't run into any of his frame traps, he's a LOT easier​
  • Rmb11: it might not be outsmarting per se, but certain players just have incredible reads and conditioningStrabisamus: they are just more patient?​
  • Umbreonmow: i don't think it's about smarts at all actually, since most of the decision-making has a lot of refinement to where "bad" things are automatic outs​
  • Umbreonmow: if you watch like hax vs m2k they have similar punishments and similar placements, positions, decisions, etc but m2k wins every timeRmb11: Mango is a good example. When hes on fire, his reads are straight ridiculous​
  • Strabisamus: man im too noob to understand the layers when top players play
    » i remember zhu saying something like 'woah thats like some 4th layer sh*t'​
  • Umbreonmow: mango's "reads" are like KDJ's where they're near-zero risk though when he goes for them​
  • Rmb11: yeah​
  • Umbreonmow: KDJ did tons of those, and it's brilliant​
  • Rmb11: he just understands where you want to be and why​
  • Umbreonmow: and if he's wrong it usually doesn't matter
    » and if you look, he is wrong a good portion of the time​
  • Strabisamus: this game does boil down to positioning doesnt it​
  • Rmb11: all fighting games do lol
    » every time lol​
  • Umbreonmow: yup​
  • Strabisamus: i see​
  • Zyzyoro: don't forget about mentality​
  • Umbreonmow: mentality largely doesn't matter​
  • Rmb11: space control and positioning are huge​
  • Sjentz: Games in general have that tendency​
  • Umbreonmow: look at ken's amazing juggle
    » position abuse all day​
  • Rmb11: ^^​
  • Umbreonmow: fox approved
    Umbreonmow: don't let ken fool you, he's still a fantastic player by any metric​
  • » even the few mistakes he makes, TCB isn't experienced enough to see and exploit them​
  • Strabisamus: how do tier 1 players in the better position most of the time?​
  • » well more than tier 2 players​
  • Umbreonmow: they don't
    » it's usually that they have pretty equally good position
    » but make worse decisions out of that position​

• Umbreonmow: and it's a very subtle and slight thing​
• Strabisamus: ohh​
• Umbreonmow: if you want an easy example, watch for falcon players that DD perfectly but downthrow when they should upthrow, it's very common
  » it was on reddit today in the smash subreddit​
• Rmb11: if you havent seen it yet, you should watch the analysis mango does on a match he has with PP​
• Rmb11: it might help you understand the train of thought a bit better​
• Zyzyoro: they just capitalize on each other's mistakes​
• Umbreonmow: watch ken in these marth dittos, his positioning matches TCB but he WAITS for TCB to do something and then takes advantage of it, over and over again
  » TCB acts too early and misses conversions a lot​
• Rmb11: Ken also knows how to hold his screen position better
  » much better​

 

[Bones0]

Oh, when do fairs start to combo?

It depends on the character, how the opponent DIs, and how you are fairing as a result of their DI or by how you started the string (you can SHDF faster than you can late fair, dash, jump into rising fair). Test it in Training Mode with the consecutive hits counter.

 

[MookieRah]

So I watched Ken's Marth tutorial just to see if there was anything interesting he goes over. There was something, how safe is this really:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdRyTjkokIU#t=672

Basically Ken claims that fairing quite close to someone is very safe if you dash immediately through them upon landing. I was wondering what the frame data actually shows, cause I'm a bit skeptical about how safe it is on the whole, but it'd be very interesting to know for sure.

I would see how doing that would be quite effective if you got stuck in shield with your opponent on top of you.

 

[Bones0]

So I watched Ken's Marth tutorial just to see if there was anything interesting he goes over. There was something, how safe is this really:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdRyTjkokIU#t=672

Basically Ken claims that fairing quite close to someone is very safe if you dash immediately through them upon landing. I was wondering what the frame data actually shows, cause I'm a bit skeptical about how safe it is on the whole, but it'd be very interesting to know for sure.

I would see how doing that would be quite effective if you got stuck in shield with your opponent on top of you.

Kadano already did a breakdown for it in his thread.

 

[BTmoney]

I love Marth so much.... I might have to go back to maining him

But here's a question I never got figured out: vs no DI low percent can you CG spacies in place? There's a zone where they are basically right above me (Marth) and I can't figure out if I should try to grab them without moving or do a really tight pivot

Anyone know what I'm talking about? That's always hard for me but I think I just don't know the leniency

 

[Tee ay eye]

TCB told me that you regrab in place if they don't DI, but you have to do turnaround grab if they DI slightly behind

and it's a bit hard to distinguish

but you can kinda tell by looking at where they are in relation to marth's head

 

[mexicanmax227]

Hey melee guys whose the closest smash melee players closest to Clinton, MS? Im off for thanksgiving and want to practice my matchups. Im a peach main and can play marth, sheik, fox, falco, falcon, jiggs and some low tiers. Im trying to train specifically my peach and can offer yall my others as practice for yalls matchups. Let me know :D. MELEE ONLY LOL

 

[MookieRah]

@Bones0
I scanned through Kadano's thread twice and didn't see anything on that. Do you remember the overall verdict on spacing fairs that way?

@Meximax
This isn't the right place to post this. This is something best posted in the atlantic south region boards here: http://smashboards.com/forums/atlantic-south.91/

As far as MS smashers go, there aren't many. I don't know of any players in the Jackson area, but my old crew was in Tupelo. JCPwn is still around, but I doubt you will drive that far for smash.

 

[mexicanmax227]

Mookie :D, i played you alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllong time ago with winnar :D. Hows life?

 

[Bones0]

@Bones0
I scanned through Kadano's thread twice and didn't see anything on that. Do you remember the overall verdict on spacing fairs that way?

@Meximax
This isn't the right place to post this. This is something best posted in the atlantic south region boards here: http://smashboards.com/forums/atlantic-south.91/

As far as MS smashers go, there aren't many. I don't know of any players in the Jackson area, but my old crew was in Tupelo. JCPwn is still around, but I doubt you will drive that far for smash.

It was on the next to last page. lol I actually asked about AC nair, but I'd assume fair is the same thing +/- the number of advantage frames it has over an AC nair on shield.

That is true at least against Fox. To be able to dash through, you need to draw your AC nair as close to him as possible without crossing over. When you are that close, dashing away to escape the grab is not possible, but if you land slightly farther away, it is.

 

[Kadano]

It’s possible with fair, but you still need to land ridiculously close:

 

[Xyzz]

The only reason to even land in front of him is to make him think he can shield grab, right? The dash through would be just as vulnerable to OOS options that hit behind as actually crossing him up, right?

Also a (translated) Kadano quote from the German boards, which I thought was just too funny to not spread it:
"I already described all options that can cancel Guardoff on the last page under 2.1.2.3.1", hell... most scientific papers I've read didn't have as many subpoints :D

 

[Kadano]

Pretty much, yeah.

That was about powershield specifics, by the way. I translated what I wrote there: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Perfect_shield#Chronological_frame_data

 

[MookieRah]

OK, it's kinda what I figured about fair, but it was worth looking into. I might practice it a bit too, but more for those instances where I need an OOS option that isn't just wavedash away.

 

[BlindSpot]

My fiancé is having trouble with the Marth vs Sheik MU. I know she needs to stay grounded, d-tilt when Sheik tries to dash attack, and go for grabs to start juggling. She does all that, but is still having trouble.

What advice can any of you give her?

 

[Tee ay eye]

mind asking her exactly what gives her trouble in that mu?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

To TheCrimsonBlur:

I watched you play on ken's stream just now and I posted advice into the chat but whoever read it aloud read it incorrectly so I'm copying it here:

• Umbreonmow: TCB do you know why you're losing?
  » I'm just trying to be real with TCB since he's been focused on improvement lately​
• 
  Umbreonmow: TCB, ken isn't doing anything you can't do, but his decision-making and tip placement are way better than yours, but you can improve on those things fairly easily​
• » no read my **** verbatim please
  » i think it will really help him
  » or have him read it​

• • Strabisamus: m2k is insane my gawd​
  • Strabisamus: someone explain why top 5 is so much better than everyone else​
  • ModUmbreonmow: m2k has holes to his play too though​
  • » the good players aren't perfect​
  • Rmb11: a top echelon of 4-5 "gods"
    » then everyone else
    » no one is perfect though​
  • Strabisamus: but how are they so much better? theyre not perfect no​
  • Umbreonmow: if you watch the tier 1 players against the tier 2 players like hax, shroomed, ice, etc, it's not that they are significantly better, they just punt the match less, and wait to receive a punt from the opponent​
  • Strabisamus: hmmm i see ill have to watch those vids again
    » but you reckon thats it​
  • Umbreonmow: that's definitely it​
  • Strabisamus: so you dont think they out smart tier 2 players?​
  • Umbreonmow: play m2k and don't run into any of his frame traps, he's a LOT easier​
  • Rmb11: it might not be outsmarting per se, but certain players just have incredible reads and conditioningStrabisamus: they are just more patient?​
  • Umbreonmow: i don't think it's about smarts at all actually, since most of the decision-making has a lot of refinement to where "bad" things are automatic outs​
  • Umbreonmow: if you watch like hax vs m2k they have similar punishments and similar placements, positions, decisions, etc but m2k wins every timeRmb11: Mango is a good example. When hes on fire, his reads are straight ridiculous​
  • Strabisamus: man im too noob to understand the layers when top players play
    » i remember zhu saying something like 'woah thats like some 4th layer sh*t'​
  • Umbreonmow: mango's "reads" are like KDJ's where they're near-zero risk though when he goes for them​
  • Rmb11: yeah​
  • Umbreonmow: KDJ did tons of those, and it's brilliant​
  • Rmb11: he just understands where you want to be and why​
  • Umbreonmow: and if he's wrong it usually doesn't matter
    » and if you look, he is wrong a good portion of the time​
  • Strabisamus: this game does boil down to positioning doesnt it​
  • Rmb11: all fighting games do lol
    » every time lol​
  • Umbreonmow: yup​
  • Strabisamus: i see​
  • Zyzyoro: don't forget about mentality​
  • Umbreonmow: mentality largely doesn't matter​
  • Rmb11: space control and positioning are huge​
  • Sjentz: Games in general have that tendency​
  • Umbreonmow: look at ken's amazing juggle
    » position abuse all day​
  • Rmb11: ^^​
  • Umbreonmow: fox approved
    Umbreonmow: don't let ken fool you, he's still a fantastic player by any metric​
  • » even the few mistakes he makes, TCB isn't experienced enough to see and exploit them​
  • Strabisamus: how do tier 1 players in the better position most of the time?​
  • » well more than tier 2 players​
  • Umbreonmow: they don't
    » it's usually that they have pretty equally good position
    » but make worse decisions out of that position​

• Umbreonmow: and it's a very subtle and slight thing​
• Strabisamus: ohh​
• Umbreonmow: if you want an easy example, watch for falcon players that DD perfectly but downthrow when they should upthrow, it's very common
  » it was on reddit today in the smash subreddit​
• Rmb11: if you havent seen it yet, you should watch the analysis mango does on a match he has with PP​
• Rmb11: it might help you understand the train of thought a bit better​
• Zyzyoro: they just capitalize on each other's mistakes​
• Umbreonmow: watch ken in these marth dittos, his positioning matches TCB but he WAITS for TCB to do something and then takes advantage of it, over and over again
  » TCB acts too early and misses conversions a lot​
• Rmb11: Ken also knows how to hold his screen position better
  » much better​

Mm, thanks for this Max

The whole "too pre-emptive" thing is something I've noticed and been trying to fix

I'm not really sure what to do about decision-making and tip placement though :/

I'm on dat grind though, so hopefully my skill will jump as my experience bar fills up. Luckily, I have very good training partners.

 

[BlindSpot]

How to edge guard sheik?
What to do after a grab?
How to handle Sheik's pressure?

 

[.K1]

So I was reading through the various matchup write-ups and was looking at the Fox CG flowchart. Is it really possible to get regrabs all the way up to 55ish% with ONLY using regrabs? Ive tried doing this vs lvl 9 fox on FD and the timing to regrab gets reallllly tight between like....48% and 57%. The cpu is able to nair me out of it sometimes (which obviously means a real person can shine me even easier). Once I get to 60% though I can get the shffl uair > regrabs pretty easy though.

When I go for regrabs at the percent I mentioned (47%-57% ish) do I need to go for dash JC grab? or will just a dash grab suffice? Does one have better vertical range than the other?

Sorry for all the questions, I just really want to optimize my practice time when it comes to this stuff and make sure I dont develop bad habits.


Edit: Is there a certain percentage that they can get out of my regrab stuff 100%? Like....at X% they can always jump out or something?

Essentially, can I get legit 0-death combos on fox by just following the CG flowchart until theyre at 80-90% then just end it with a tipper? If not, what % should is most recommended to stop my regrabs?

 

[Kadano]

How to edge guard sheik?
What to do after a grab?
How to handle Sheik's pressure?

Edgehog.
Upthrow.
Stay just out of her range and react to everything she does from there. Preferably with dtilt → dash away → react to her choice again.

So I was reading through the various matchup write-ups and was looking at the Fox CG flowchart. Is it really possible to get regrabs all the way up to 55ish% with ONLY using regrabs?

If he DIs full left or right, yes. If he flies straight upwards or close to it, no. But that’s all explained in Beat’s flowchart.

When I go for regrabs at the percent I mentioned (47%-57% ish) do I need to go for dash JC grab? or will just a dash grab suffice? Does one have better vertical range than the other?

Go here and scroll down to the “Grabs” section to see a range comparison. Both work, but JC grab is more flexible because of its shorter startup.

Essentially, can I get legit 0-death combos on fox by just following the CG flowchart until theyre at 80-90% then just end it with a tipper?

Yes.

 

[.K1]

The response is much appreciated. Thank you sir!

 

[BlindSpot]

Thank you for replying to my post. I highly appreciate it

 

[Tee ay eye]

what do you guys do when you uthrow someone and they retreat to the top platform

 

[FrootLoop]

hope it's not BF/DL

 

[Mahie]

I don't know either. Maybe the issue lies in the uthrow in the first place?

If you can't get anything guaranteed out of it, mostly at early%, maybe it's best to try and go for dthrow/fthrow towards the edge, and then techchase or something, depending on the matchup too (I would Dthrow Sheik regardless of the position, Fthrow sucks against her, for instance).

What matchup were you thinking of TAI? Spacies?

 

[Bones0]

moar bthrow onto side plats, bro

 

[Dr Peepee]

I expect them to go there and hit them/cover that option with Fair/Uair @Tai

 

[Tee ay eye]

uhhh i guess peach

i was thinking there might be some indirect way to exploit the fact that they're above you that someone else might know better than me

 

[Mahie]

Well if they're Peach you can afford to try and chase them up, they don't have the speed to go all the way around you and get underneath, at least I don't think so.

 

[Tee ay eye]

@Beat!

I have a question about your space animal CG flowchart

Whenever you say uair -> tipper or uair -> regrab, does it have to be a tipper or a sourspot?

 

[Beat!]

Lmao, what are the odds. Checked this thread for the first time in forever and there's a question for me.

Unless specified otherwise (see step 7.) it should be a tipper uair. Should've probably been more clear about that.


Also, @Peach on top platform: Idk, I guess if the Peach knows how to shield drop you have to pay a little attention but otherwise just stay below her and pressure with uairs/fairs (preferably the SH variety but Dreamland and Battlefield exist so it depends).

 

[Tee ay eye]

really? that's interesting

it's a bit hard for me to believe that tipper uair stuns them long enough to regrab, but that's good to know

 

[Bones0]

Lmao, what are the odds. Checked this thread for the first time in forever and there's a question for me.

Unless specified otherwise (see step 7.) it should be a tipper uair. Should've probably been more clear about that.


Also, @Peach on top platform: Idk, I guess if the Peach knows how to shield drop you have to pay a little attention but otherwise just stay below her and pressure with uairs/fairs (preferably the SH variety but Dreamland and Battlefield exist so it depends).

I don't think Peach is even capable of shield drop dairing fast enough to hit you if you tipper fair and immediately FF.