Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[BTmoney]

has anyone been able to successfully implement grab->pivot->tipper fsmash yet to get those ridiculous low percent kills on floaties yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuCCmymFpMU

Is this actually part of anyone's game yet? Like where you actually grab peach at mid/high percent and flat out kill her? I can't get it down.

 

[Bones0]

has anyone been able to successfully implement grab->pivot->tipper fsmash yet to get those ridiculous low percent kills on floaties yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuCCmymFpMU

Is this actually part of anyone's game yet? Like where you actually grab peach at mid/high percent and flat out kill her? I can't get it down.

Mahone (Puff main) told me Scrap Mettle was doing it really consistently back when they played a lot. Last time I played Mahone I was able to get the pivot about half the time, but I wasn't really focused on spacing on top of that so not all of them were tippers. I also don't use Marth vs. floaties in tournament so I don't have a huge motivation to practice it.

 

[Beat!]

@Tai

it's a bit hard for me to believe that tipper uair stuns them long enough to regrab, but that's good to know

The timing is pretty strict, but delaying the uair for as long as possible makes a bigger difference than one might think.



@Blacktictian

has anyone been able to successfully implement grab->pivot->tipper fsmash yet to get those ridiculous low percent kills on floaties yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuCCmymFpMU

Is this actually part of anyone's game yet? Like where you actually grab peach at mid/high percent and flat out kill her? I can't get it down.

Yeah, I've been using it with great success for well over a year. Mainly against Puff, though. Against Peach I usually go for juggles.

 

[Kadano]

Is this actually part of anyone's game yet? Like where you actually grab peach at mid/high percent and flat out kill her? I can't get it down.

I always go for wavedash → fsmash because it’s easier and allows you to space it correctly by choosing the angle accordingly to % and DI guess. I have a ~40% success rate so far against Peach and Puff. Against Peach, it isn’t a true combo, but the only way to escape it is for her to mid-air jump and airdodge away immediately.

 

[BTmoney]

I always go for wavedash → fsmash because it’s easier and allows you to space it correctly by choosing the angle accordingly to % and DI guess. I have a ~40% success rate so far against Peach and Puff. Against Peach, it isn’t a true combo, but the only way to escape it is for her to mid-air jump and airdodge away immediately.

Does the dthrow mixup work vs Peach as well? And vs peach what percents are you referring to?

Oh I didn't know you could throw->WD->tipper fsmash peach/puff. I knew it could connect if they DI wrong or do something silly but I didn't know you could get reliable(ish) tippers off of this. Can you perfect tip either peach or puff off this?

In your experience can you ever chase her air dodge with utilt? Like fthrow->WD->wait for air dodge

 

[Crawfish]

i went to my first tourney, and now im depressed and take pills, that list depression as a side effect lolwut
but i got 2-0 by everyone except for another marth in pools. i dont understand.
the foxes and falcons didn't even give me a chance to do anything, they kept doing, stuff, constantly. what are you supposed to do about tech heavy pressure junkies like that? and i think i heard someone say i don't know what to do when the opponent jumped. what's ground game? idk anything at all.

 

[Deleted member]

hey kevin

i saw a taco bell today

i thought of you so i went inside

i ate 2 doritos locos cooler ranch tacos

i had flashbacks of being in taco bell with you and yay

and he was all like "we up all night to get lucky" like daft punk

but for some reason it wasn't as gay as it sounds when i type it out

anyway i miss you guys. i will forever associate you with taco bell

/sigh~

 

[Bones0]

i went to my first tourney, and now im depressed and take pills, that list depression as a side effect lolwut
but i got 2-0 by everyone except for another marth in pools. i dont understand.
the foxes and falcons didn't even give me a chance to do anything, they kept doing, stuff, constantly. what are you supposed to do about tech heavy pressure junkies like that? and i think i heard someone say i don't know what to do when the opponent jumped. what's ground game? idk anything at all.

When Foxes jump, DD/WD grab them. When Falcon jumps, intercept with nair/fair.

 

[Kadano]

Does the dthrow mixup work vs Peach as well? And vs peach what percents are you referring to?

Dthrow is too slow against Peach.
80%+. I usually don’t try it before 90% as it doesn’t kill there anyway.

Oh I didn't know you could throw->WD->tipper fsmash peach/puff. I knew it could connect if they DI wrong or do something silly but I didn't know you could get reliable(isn) tippers off of this. Can you perfect tip either peach or puff off this?

See: Jigglypuff section. You cannot force a tipper this way, but by correctly guessing her DI, you can always space the wavedash by selecting the correct angle so you get the tipper. Except for ~140° DI, but that gives you other options to kill her, which are all listed in the image in the section there.

In your experience can you ever chase her air dodge with utilt? Like fthrow->WD->wait for air dodge

I’ve never had an opponent jump → airdodge out. If someone did, utilt would whiff by far as they would DI away from me. As my fsmash already whiffed, utilt won’t do any better in horizontal reach.

 

[Crawfish]

When Foxes jump, DD/WD grab them. When Falcon jumps, intercept with nair/fair.

are there any examples of this anywhere? srry but i dont have a fox or falcon to practice with. i need to see it.

 

[SUNG475]

@Tai


The timing is pretty strict, but delaying the uair for as long as possible makes a bigger difference than one might think.

I've been following the flowchart, unless I'm doing the regrab wrong (I don't think I am) then people can SDI up and jump out in time before my regrab gets em.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey kevin

i saw a taco bell today

i thought of you so i went inside

i ate 2 doritos locos cooler ranch tacos

i had flashbacks of being in taco bell with you and yay

and he was all like "we up all night to get lucky" like daft punk

but for some reason it wasn't as gay as it sounds when i type it out

anyway i miss you guys. i will forever associate you with taco bell

/sigh~

yeah singing helps with the DP

TB is delicious and we should get some again sometime.

 

[Deleted member]

let's have a taco bell party at apex.

it'll be like a taco party but more disgusting.

the girls around new jersey look approximately 0% like this LOL

also marth fsmash dashdancing grab camp m2k. i'm only putting this **** to it's not "off-topic". look false tagging things is so cool, you youtube ASSHOLES.

/scumbag umbreon

 

[Beat!]

I've been following the flowchart, unless I'm doing the regrab wrong (I don't think I am) then people can SDI up and jump out in time before my regrab gets em.

What percents are we talking about here? Or do you miss the regrab against SDI:ing opponents regardless of percent?

 

[SUNG475]

The 35-59% range on your flowchart, I think at around like 45% they can definitely SDI the uair to double jump escape the regrab

I haven't really tested this though

 

[Beat!]

Hm, okay. I'm skeptical, but I'm definitely gonna test it.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

How do I practice timing / precision :/

My rote muscle memory tech-skill is pretty incredible but ... I keep missing people and ****. Like by pixels. How are people this precise smh **** you Melee community

I'm mostly talking about hitboxes btw; I have routines with movement that are pretty effective. How do I practice hitting (smart) moving targets...

 

[Mahie]

I guess on your own, bob ombs are pretty useful.

Just... try harder when you play in friendlies? Accuracy is obviously really important. "Movement" routines are only there to set up the actual move that comes afterwards.

It could just be people dodging you by pixels though. That means you got baited most of the time. Half of the time when I'm playing I'm doing that to people, dash dancing in and out so that it might trigger a specific attack at a specific range, except it will always whiff because I go out of that range right before it actually reaches me.

If that's the case, then you might want to think a little harder I guess? It's hard to respond to that visually.

 

[AustinRC]

How do I practice timing / precision :/

My rote muscle memory tech-skill is pretty incredible but ... I keep missing people and ****. Like by pixels. How are people this precise smh **** you Melee community

I'm mostly talking about hitboxes btw; I have routines with movement that are pretty effective. How do I practice hitting (smart) moving targets...

When this happens to me consistently I try to think about the situation I'm in and what caused that particular outcome. Was I juggling him and he just barely made it around my U air? Okay he did a stall to get away from it, so next time I'll try and stay grounded until he does the stall then I'll hit him out of it. Was it in neutral? If it was what was the situation? They dash'ed away from my D tilt and barely got away, so next time maybe I'll further extend my D tilt, or maybe dash attack would work if I think they'll run away again. Was I throwing an aerial out because I expected them to come in? If this is the case then they were most likely trying to bait it in the first place. Next time I'll close the gap with my dash dancing and force them to move first and then punish. You should try and think about these points a little bit figure out how they got around it and come up with a counter measure. Thinking about this game without even playing it is also really helpful.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How do I practice timing / precision :/

My rote muscle memory tech-skill is pretty incredible but ... I keep missing people and ****. Like by pixels. How are people this precise smh **** you Melee community

I'm mostly talking about hitboxes btw; I have routines with movement that are pretty effective. How do I practice hitting (smart) moving targets...

Imagine you are a newbie and all the melee people are evil and do not talk with newbies like yourself. What do you do to improve? You play against these evil melee people.

Now, as a newbie you played hours only to get destroyed and get frustrated. Repeat this cycle for several weeks once a week. You now better understand what you are doing and get some success against the evil people from time to time. Now, that you slightly understand the game the better you want to know how to do some certain thing. Well, the evil melee people are still evil and do not talk to you. You play against these evil melee people some more, but this time with a better idea of what to focus on.

Once again, you play hours and get destroyed and frustrated for several months now. The evil melee people are still evil and you get beat up lots by the scary characters. However, you look back at how you started and where you are now and feel pride in the work you put in to get to where you are now. So, you keep playing the evil melee people some more.

Its now been several years since you started and you decide to see some old friends and play melee with them. After an hour or two of play you realize you won ever single match. A week later you meet up and the same result. "Huh?!", you wonder to yourself. "When did I get to be so good at this game?" Now, one of your friends is really impressed with how you play this game and asks you how to do 'this', 'that', and 'those'. You have no good reply and your friend gets frustrated. Congratulations, you have become an evil melee person.

Now, to answer your question CrimsonBlur... Imagine I am an evil melee person and you are the newbie. What do you do?

 

[SAUS]

Imagine you are a newbie and all the melee people are evil and do not talk with newbies like yourself. What do you do to improve? You play against these evil melee people.

Now, as a newbie you played hours only to get destroyed and get frustrated. Repeat this cycle for several weeks once a week. You now better understand what you are doing and get some success against the evil people from time to time. Now, that you slightly understand the game the better you want to know how to do some certain thing. Well, the evil melee people are still evil and do not talk to you. You play against these evil melee people some more, but this time with a better idea of what to focus on.

Once again, you play hours and get destroyed and frustrated for several months now. The evil melee people are still evil and you get beat up lots by the scary characters. However, you look back at how you started and where you are now and feel pride in the work you put in to get to where you are now. So, you keep playing the evil melee people some more.

Its now been several years since you started and you decide to see some old friends and play melee with them. After an hour or two of play you realize you won ever single match. A week later you meet up and the same result. "Huh?!", you wonder to yourself. "When did I get to be so good at this game?" Now, one of your friends is really impressed with how you play this game and asks you how to do 'this', 'that', and 'those'. You have no good reply and your friend gets frustrated. Congratulations, you have become an evil melee person.

Now, to answer your question CrimsonBlur... Imagine I am an evil melee person and you are the newbie. What do you do?

Omg it's so true!

The best practice comes from playing against people that are better than you. You'll try things and find out that they don't actually work, and you'll find things that do sort of work. It just takes time and practice.

 

[MookieRah]

Actually I don't think the above is very true at all, actually. I think there is a lot of truth in "Practice smarter not harder." and I would say that most people who play this game competitively are not training in an effective way. Simply "playing" will get you better at the game, but it is definitely not the best way. I improved A TON since I moved to Sweden, and most of the time I have only had the ability to train by myself. I think TCB is stuck in trying to figure out an effective training regiment for himself, and that he wants to do something more structured than just playing a ton.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, the "just play a lot" advice is good for beginners because they still need to get a proper basic grasp of how their character and the game as a whole works, but I think TCB is looking for something that's a little more in-depth than that.

That being said, it's still a fairly difficult question to answer in a concrete way, but I think ARC and Mahie have the right idea. Being as focused as possible while playing helps you recognize and memorize situations/positions you've been in before and subsequently what you should be doing (and how).

I guess something you could be trying is a training exercise where you force yourself to be as minimalistic as possible. Basically don't throw out any moves at all, and from there try to recognize where it would be useful.

 

[Deleted member]

Play people significantly worse than you so you can take your time placing moves against human opponents. As you get better, so will your ability to keep your placements accurate. So yeah actually the solution is still just to play more.





Y͓͇͕̣̙̰͎̙͎̣̗̝̥̬̯ͯͥ̄̎̌̐ͫ̐ͩͯͦ̈̏̔̽̽ͤͥͧo͙̠̗̫̭̪̪͇̠̯̗͎̙̫̖̠ͥ̑̈̔̉u͊̑̾ͮ̒ͫ̈́ͥ͑̚ ̤̮̩̦̼̝̺̳̖̪̣̼̜̲̬͕̗̮̥ͯ̅́̓͋̃͒ͧͥ̔̿̒̐c̩̲̤̬͖͔̺̰̾ͩͫ̐̈́͑ͦ̋̈̾a̳͕̪̥͙̦̗͍̝͔̠̒̓͆̓̉ͅn͔̥͉͖̩̝̘̖̣̝̱̳̪̙̽̿ͦ̂̓͐̏͒ͤ̅ͦ̋͋̚ ̞̪̘͇̻̹̮̯̙̹̺̬̺͈̮͖ͫ̏ͫ̓ n̲͍͎͇̩̰͔͔̻̲̮͙͖̐͂̆ͫ̂ͩͭ̉̊ͧ̎̇ͧͅͅe͇̩̙̺̮̗͉͙̮͓̱̞ͪ̅̿̑̓͊ͦ̿ͯv͈̙̤̳̹̗̳̓͑̈́ͤͦ̒̋̌͛̿ͩ̓̈́ͥ͑̓ḛ̫̗̞̋ͥ̑ͭ͗ͥ̃́̂̑͋̾r̼͇̣̹͇̲̮̭̫͖̤̺̦̜͋̓ͩ̽̉̐ͧ̚ ͈̫̺̮̿̊͑̏̔ͪ̔ͮ̃g͖͉̗̬͖̘̤̤̗͉̲͙̻̝͓ͥ̒ͨͪ̓͂̇̌ͅͅe͖̻̜̜̤̜̠̘̫̮͕̮̜͖͇̫̝̺͉̊̏̈ͯͫ̀̅t̞̺̩̹̻͕͉̬̪̤̱̞̺͉͖͑͊̐̆͌ͨͧ̾̾͑ͤ̋̿ͩͩ̐̅̎̚ ̲͚̱̟͈̗ͫ͑ͪ̓͌̈́͛͂̑ͨ̂̇̏̐ͫ̀͛ͦ ő̮̞̟̤͔̹̞͙͕̱̥͙̭̙̬̰̣͈̖ͦͩ̒͐̍̊ū̲͓̪̟̣̎ͣ̂͒ͧ̅ͧ̈́̆̚ṯ͈̜̣̱̹̭̹̭̥̃̑͗̐ͯ̈̔̎̐͆͊̚.

 

[Tee ay eye]

it's hard to land clean hits on a moving opponent

instead of trying to focus on being more precise (granted, it is important), i'd say that you moreso have to solve the problem from the other end by limiting their movement rather than trying to attack it undiminished

so ways you'd do that is like
cornering them
and making them respect your sword by poking them or zoning them

 

[Xyzz]

The last three posts all contained great ideas, which I'll definitely try out. (the fine-tuning of my spacing really can use a lot of work... maybe because I play too much Peach/Falco and they get by being somewhat sloppy here. Oh, I wanted to space my bair, but I'll actually end up on top of his shield? Well, then I'll just shine, no harm done)

 

[AustinRC]

If anyone would like to talk more in depth about this I'd love to. Just send me a PM or something. Helps get the ideas flowing charting.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hitting someone well depends on playing neutral well. Playing neutral well depends on effective, long practice and understanding.

I suggest practicing zoning with Fairs/Nairs/Dtilts and how to move and attack before using each move. That can be pretty useful practice.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hitting someone well depends on playing neutral well. Playing neutral well depends on effective, long practice and understanding.

I suggest practicing zoning with Fairs/Nairs/Dtilts and how to move and attack before using each move. That can be pretty useful practice.

 

[Xyzz]

How exactly would you practice zoning?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I would start off with how I understood zoning. I understand zoning as controlling my own space but also threatening the space of others at times. I also know it would involve movement and attacks. From there, I would first work on controlling my own space(you can think defensive here) and how I might do that. Perhaps I'd practice WD back AC Nair or Dtilt pivot AC Nair. For an example of a threatening zoning technique, I might practice WD forward Dtilt dash back.

The trick is to understand why you might do each technique, how your opponent may respond, and the mixups that come out this thought experiment. Then you can build your understanding of zoning by trying out these things every time you play someone and go back and practice new techniques or refine old ones and continue improving in that way.

 

[Xyzz]

Haha, I don't know what magic insight I was hoping for... :D
It'd just be so nice if there was some grindable singe-player exercise to refine zoning/spacing :x


still a strangely motivating post to stop procrastinating and start the next thinktank round on matchups already (:

 

[Deleted member]

fade ac nair is one of the few good ways to use the move too, good stuff kevin

 

[Purpletuce]

PP's strategies getting Umbreon's approval always amuses me. . .

 

[Deleted member]

why? he's a smart guy. and besides, i personally like to see him succeed.

 

[BTmoney]

I fell down the void where I main 5 characters

someone help

 

[Deleted member]

stop playing 4 of them.

if you're not sure which to play, knock them off 1 at a time. process of elimination.

 

[swanized]

stop playing 4 of them.

if you're not sure which to play, knock them off 1 at a time. process of elimination.

Don't you feel like it's possible playing different characters can help develop different part of your skillset? I main marth but I feel like playing puff a lot has helped me develop my offstage edgeguarding. I'd guess playing fox would help develop your techskill, etc.

I'd agree 5 might be a bit excessive but don't you think maining two characters could help you develop different strengths as a player?

 

[dRevan64]

I don't know about him but there's a difference between maining a character and playing them. I mean I would never in a million years claim I prioritize any aspect of my falcon game but he ends up being played with surprising frequency just for entertainment purposes–I mean, I still play this game because it's fun. And I do feel that playing fox has helped my marth game substantially on a purely technical level. But at the end of the day a big part of developing as a player is using your character to the point where you understand his weaknesses and how to work around them instead of being reliant on alternate mains–which can be useful in their own right, but you can't expect to halfass them and be equally viable.

 

[Bones0]

I fell down the void where I main 5 characters

someone help

You're only allowed to play one spacie.

I don't think even Mango can keep both of his spacies at their peak at the same time. He's sort of gradually switched from Falco to Fox.