Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[SUNG475]

Falco u throw should be super hard to get a combo off of, don't DI the u throw then spam SDI when the lasers hit

Start to SDI everything! Don't be lazy yall I gotta focus on that a lot more too, still think Marth is amazing in teams though

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Ya Marth is dope in teams

Teams is really position based, and Marth makes position his *****. Also its awesome to play a character that can reliably anti air everything, which reduces the complexity your teammate has to deal with when initiating the mainline offense.

Marth is probably the best example I can think of where "a good offense is the best defense" in a way that isn't cliche or ********. Marth is AWFUL AWFUL at defense. His shield sucks, his combo weight is awful, his recovery is mediore, and his biggest actual weakness is probably on his dash away during DD (and pivot is essential with this character).

Keeping space means you must be VERY aggressive pretty much all the time. For the best players, this usually comes naturally because they're playing to optimize their margin anyway. For new players learning the character this is a very hard thing to surmount. The best way to keep space is to learn how to pivot, how to crouchgrab, and how to stop caring about whether you win or not. Just hunt people down and **** them. The better you get at the character, the more your opponents will not be coming back once you have them dead. And that will solve basically all of your problems.

Damn good post

+1

 

[Belgian Warrior]

Sorry if the question has already been asked but I was too lazy the 358 pages.
Can you backthrow to turnaround downtilt Falco as you can do with Fox (and then if he doesn't tech you can edgeguard him) ?
Because for example at Zenith 2012 M2K didn't do that. So I was wondering if that was working.

 

[MookieRah]

Sorry if the question has already been asked but I was too lazy the 358 pages.
Can you backthrow to turnaround downtilt Falco as you can do with Fox (and then if he doesn't tech you can edgeguard him) ?
Because for example at Zenith 2012 M2K didn't do that. So I was wondering if that was working.

The consensus for this back when I compiled data from this thread several months ago is that it isn't guaranteed on Falco. You'd have to consult Kadano though, as I'm sure he could elaborate more on this.

 

[l will find peace]

So can anyone tell me how to better edge guard Sheik as Marth? I found myself really struggling trying to edge guard a Sheik player this past weekend. The player was going low and doing wall jumps to needle turn around to grab the ledge, it was very difficult to get around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREm4Bsw58M

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Anyone have any thoughts on preferring to choose ideal choices that carry high punishment (against yourself) should you fail versus choosing a choice which will net you a similar reward as the high punishment one (not as great though), but carries no punishment risk?

I will illustrate with a black-box example. The setting is that Fox is offstage and Marth positioned near the ledge. Fox chooses to Firefox. Now, you can counter which will cover all angles of Firefox that would allow Fox to get back to the stage. Or you can choose to Fsmash fox which covers all angles. From how I see it, if I miss time my Fsmash or miss space it, Fox hits me and our stage position is instantly switched (high punishment against me). However, this nets me the KO right away should I get my timing correct. Otherwise, counter carries virtually no risk since it so easy to time. The only issue is that I now have to continue my edgeguard since counter will not KO fox, but give me enough time to set-up for a better low risk way of killing fox. Such as I have enough time to run offstage and Fair fox away for the kill or something.

 

[dRevan64]

Anyone have any thoughts on preferring to choose ideal choices that carry high punishment (against yourself) should you fail versus choosing a choice which will net you a similar reward as the high punishment one (not as great though), but carries no punishment risk?

I will illustrate with a black-box example. The setting is that Fox is offstage and Marth positioned near the ledge. Fox chooses to Firefox. Now, you can counter which will cover all angles of Firefox that would allow Fox to get back to the stage. Or you can choose to Fsmash fox which covers all angles. From how I see it, if I miss time my Fsmash or miss space it, Fox hits me and our stage position is instantly switched (high punishment against me). However, this nets me the KO right away should I get my timing correct. Otherwise, counter carries virtually no risk since it so easy to time. The only issue is that I now have to continue my edgeguard since counter will not KO fox, but give me enough time to set-up for a better low risk way of killing fox. Such as I have enough time to run offstage and Fair fox away for the kill or something.

When it's a situation like that where you have basically complete control over what will happen, it's usually better to have your timing and spacing down well enough that you know you can pull off the fsmash. Now that said a lot of foxes will tech the fsmash into the ledge and they might not do that with counter. That's a REALLY major guessing game though especially if fox gets a sweetspot mew2king angle from below because then if you counter I think you can actually get punished with a ledgedash shine or something.

So that spiel aside it depends basically entirely on the situation. That's one where I would probably dtilt though, since neither of the things you described are especially safe although I'd argue fsmash is probably safer if your execution is good.

 

[Bones0]

Anyone have any thoughts on preferring to choose ideal choices that carry high punishment (against yourself) should you fail versus choosing a choice which will net you a similar reward as the high punishment one (not as great though), but carries no punishment risk?

I will illustrate with a black-box example. The setting is that Fox is offstage and Marth positioned near the ledge. Fox chooses to Firefox. Now, you can counter which will cover all angles of Firefox that would allow Fox to get back to the stage. Or you can choose to Fsmash fox which covers all angles. From how I see it, if I miss time my Fsmash or miss space it, Fox hits me and our stage position is instantly switched (high punishment against me). However, this nets me the KO right away should I get my timing correct. Otherwise, counter carries virtually no risk since it so easy to time. The only issue is that I now have to continue my edgeguard since counter will not KO fox, but give me enough time to set-up for a better low risk way of killing fox. Such as I have enough time to run offstage and Fair fox away for the kill or something.

I don't get how your example applies to what you described. If both options are guaranteed, I don't see how one is more ideal than the other. If you had to choose between landing a difficult fsmash timing or counter -> easymode edgeguard, why would anyone choose the former?

If you have two guaranteed edgeguards, the fact that one is a 2-step process seems irrelevant as long as it is still easier.

 

[SAUS]

I think there could be a better example for what Xeylode is asking. What if you don't know that the counter will hit, but it looks like there's a good chance it will (not quite guarenteed, but the follow-up would be easy and would probably mean you get the kill), but something more like running off the edge->fair look like it has a decent chance of succeeding, but failing means you will most likely die. At least I think that is what he is asking.

This is basically all risk vs reward and also how well you calculate your chances. There is also the case where you NEED to get this edgeguard in order to make up for a rather bad deficit (lets say fox is at like 20%, but is 1 stock ahead of you). In that case, taking the riskier option might be your best bet at winning the match. If you think you can pull off the more dangerous maneuver, then it is most likely worth it imo. The main thing is if you are confident with the maneuver. This is where practice and familiarisation are very important. It should only fail if your judgement was wrong, and your judgement should be correct as often as possible. If you drop it due to execution, you need to practice more. In friendlies, I almost always go for the risky option if I don't know what will happen. This way, I can better judge the situation in the future, but also, I will have the practice for executing the harder option for when it really matters.

Getting back to my point, you should know which option is better. You should know, more of the time, when the counter will not work, so that you can remove that option sooner and allow you to evaluate your other options better. Similarly, you should know, at least more of the time, when doing a risky maneuver will and won't work. If it comes to a crucial point in an important match, you don't want to be guessing or taking unnecessary risks.

 

[Deleted member]

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDP71n8PqVg[/URL]

Here's the sheik I was having trouble with. I made a few technical errors so if you could overlook those that'd be awesome. I'd like to go over another set if you don't mind. Thanks again in advanced.


- Arc

Hilariously, Wobbles makes a lot of good points in the opening commentary for what people want in terms of match analysis. Well, I'll have my crack at it. Your movement in the neutral game is good enough where I don't need to talk about it, so I'm going to focus on your conversions and punishment instead.

1:32 - the fair spacing on shield is so good here that you can pause the match and see that marth's sword is visually not even touching sheik's shield. i think this is okay because you got the faded aerial movement with the fair so sheik can't get you oos, but sheik's major threatening point is usually being able to crouch marth's aerials at low % and to hit you in the move lag pretty easily. it worked out for you here though. the early % for upthrow is a really nice bonus.

1:40 - you WAIT for sheik to do <something> and then you SWORD it. That's EXACTLY what this MU should look like if you're playing it well. he DI'd the first upthrow uptilt correctly, you maintained PA here and used it to get another launcher into a more reliable punishment. 10/10. where you messed up is trading a rising upair with sheik's 2nd nair. you are over-extending by rising into sheik's extended hitbox, nullifying marth's range (and his source of aerial control), and this comes back to bite you when you lose control. the double phantom hit is unfortunate, but the truth is that you lost control of the opponent before those happened.

1:46 - you fsmash without waiting and you get hit for it. you'll see this trend a LOT in this MU specifically, and this video is no exception. usually whoever makes the first dedicated action is the one that gets punished, since sheik is quite good at punishing marth's slow moves but quite bad at actually approaching marth before he's done one.

1:49 - GREAT low placement on dtilt. idk if you just have freak reflexes or what but if you pause the match it's a high shield and a WD into the correct spacing on it.

i'll continue this after lunch ~<3

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't get how your example applies to what you described. If both options are guaranteed, I don't see how one is more ideal than the other. If you had to choose between landing a difficult fsmash timing or counter -> easymode edgeguard, why would anyone choose the former?

If you have two guaranteed edgeguards, the fact that one is a 2-step process seems irrelevant as long as it is still easier.

First off, the topic I care about is how to factor in decision making when you realize that you may have some inability to perform something correctly time and time again. For the 3+ years I must have attempted to get off the ledge with a wavedash thousands of times. However, I still see myself screwing it up. I think despite how often you do something you will still have some inherent failure rate in whatever you do. Practice just brings that failure rate from like 50% down to like 3% or something.

The example I brought up was pretty simplistic. So, keep the idea about being able to choose one option which will net you the kill right away, however is difficult to time and your mistake easily gets you punished pretty hard. The alternative choosing a long series of additional easier steps to eventually reach, but each step you easily could end up messing up as well since you have so many of them to do correctly before getting the stock.

Here are some other examples of what I mean.
-Fox/Falco. You can either tech chase up to 30% or go for the uthrow chaingrab up to 30%. Either should be guaranteed, but one is probably harder for one person compared to another.
-A character gets stuck on a yoshi island platform. Do you try timing for the quick fsmash tipper kill or do you go for the long winded route of getting a sh Fair and try taking the stock through edgeguarding? The fsmash tipper is a one time quick kill and is guaranteed if you time it right. If you get it wrong you completely mess up your positional advantage and get punished right away by stand -> drop through aerial or something. On the other hand, doing the SH fair into edgeguarding will require more additional steps to getting the KO, but should still be guaranteed to the KO eventually if you are perfect with each subsequent step. But, you have more opportunities for failure due to you messing up.

Again, I am uncertain if one should even bother factoring in your own failure when it comes to decision making. As in should you choose an option regardless of your ability to perform it or not?

 

[Bones0]

If one option is better than another, then you should use the optimal one. If you suck at the optimal course of action, the solution is to get better at it, not pick a suboptimal option. If you are in a tournament match that you really want to win and accept that you cannot perform the optimal option consistently enough, of course you can stick with the easier method. It will just be less effective.

At the end of the day, you just have to rely on instinct and experience to tell you which method is more likely to yield a victory in your situation. The stock count, game count, confidence in your read, and a million other factors come into play when deciding which method is more likely to pay off. Personally, I'd rather play an optimal style and if I fail in an area because of execution or whatever, then I can focus on that and improve for next time. A great way to stay awful at this game is to always go for the easy way out. You can get decent just abusing CC dsmash with Peach, but a Peach that plays with very little CC dsmash is going to improve way faster than a Peach that wins all of matches vs. other noobs because all he does is abuse CC dsmash.

 

[Xyzz]

First off, the topic I care about is how to factor in decision making when you realize that you may have some inability to perform something correctly time and time again. For the 3+ years I must have attempted to get off the ledge with a wavedash thousands of times. However, I still see myself screwing it up. I think despite how often you do something you will still have some inherent failure rate in whatever you do. Practice just brings that failure rate from like 50% down to like 3% or something.

The example I brought up was pretty simplistic. So, keep the idea about being able to choose one option which will net you the kill right away, however is difficult to time and your mistake easily gets you punished pretty hard. The alternative choosing a long series of additional easier steps to eventually reach, but each step you easily could end up messing up as well since you have so many of them to do correctly before getting the stock.

Here are some other examples of what I mean.
-Fox/Falco. You can either tech chase up to 30% or go for the uthrow chaingrab up to 30%. Either should be guaranteed, but one is probably harder for one person compared to another.
-A character gets stuck on a yoshi island platform. Do you try timing for the quick fsmash tipper kill or do you go for the long winded route of getting a sh Fair and try taking the stock through edgeguarding? The fsmash tipper is a one time quick kill and is guaranteed if you time it right. If you get it wrong you completely mess up your positional advantage and get punished right away by stand -> drop through aerial or something. On the other hand, doing the SH fair into edgeguarding will require more additional steps to getting the KO, but should still be guaranteed to the KO eventually if you are perfect with each subsequent step. But, you have more opportunities for failure due to you messing up.

Again, I am uncertain if one should even bother factoring in your own failure when it comes to decision making. As in should you choose an option regardless of your ability to perform it or not?

Regarding rate of failures: I wouldn't want to rely on sth. that has a 3% rate of failure just due to me being bad at pressing buttons... at least not if the expected outcome of a failure is me dying, like with a ledgedash

Regarding one shot vs many small steps: The optimal course of action is the one where the chance that at the end of the day the opponent is dead is maximized. This means if it's just one attempt the chance simply is the chance of succeeding. In the case of a chain, math tells us the chance of having a dead opponent is the product of the chances of success of all steps (e.g. if counter works in 90% of all cases and the following chains end up working in 90% of all cases again (be it edgehog, run off fair, whatever), the chance of success is .9 times .9 equalling 81%. So if you expect fsmash to work in 80% or less of all cases, you should go for the chain.)
Obviously we don't know the exact percentages in a real situation and most of us are unable to do the math on the spot, so there's huge amounts of guessing involved. Get good at having a good intuition regrading these things and you'll get good at picking the optimal path.


@Bones: I think it's okay to abuse tons of downsmash even while learning. The Peach player in question should just try his very best to not make it a habit, but pay close attention to what the opponent does wrong that puts him in the situation to be subject to CC dsmash. Knowing all the spots where the opponent allows this to happen is really important if you ask me (:

 

[SAUS]

I want to add to my post above that it's about risk-reward evaluation. It's hard to make the choice in that situation if it's close, but through experience, practice, and familiarity, it will boil down to the right choice and the wrong choice. Either you will do the right move, take unnecessary risks doing the other (might not work or you might screw up and die), or just fail.

 

[zzzzzzzzzz]

any tips for ledge hop dair onto the stage?

 

[Xyzz]

don't be slow on the jump.

You can practice with empty jumps to see how fast you can press jump (you don't really see a drop in altitude of Marth, if you press jump just as you release the ledge). Once you're comfortable with that, move the jump onto the stage. Then add a dair. Then start seeing how low you can actually drop and still manage to get on the stage.

 

[Purpletuce]

Also be sure to practice hitting things and getting the fastfall. You don't want to hop up and hit a shield, and then input the fastfall too early because the hitstun messed up your timing.

 

[CyberZixx]

Sometimes when I fair it will send them straight up and it set up amazing for dairs. I don't seem to be able to get that effect on command. What determines this?

 

[Rarik]

Tippered Fairs where your opponent's DI is 157 degrees (straight up is 90, and 0 is the direction you're facing) will cause the fair to have a launch angle of about 85 degrees, so almost straight up. No DI is 67 degrees. Non-tipper is 45. Could also be due to your forward momentum putting you under them, or both.

 

[Son of Slobodan]

peepee do you not use the c-stick for any of your characters? I noticed in your videos it looks like you never use it for aerials just for smashes. I find it interesting it seems like alot of high level players don't use it much, I'm starting to think it might be a crutch sometimes and slows you down.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah C stick is very good I'm just stubborn lol. I can use A and move possibly as good as using the C stick but it's not really something I'd recommend.

I C stick Uairs and that's about it.

 

[Bones0]

Idk how people go from Y to the C-stick quickly enough to do fairs/bairs. I tried to learn tap jumping so I could C-stick SH fadeaway fairs, but SHing seems impossible with the control stick. lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's why I use X.

 

[Bones0]

That's why I use X.

I can imagine that helps for fairing left, but can you fair facing right fast enough to double fair/waveland?

 

[Son of Slobodan]

yea as amazing and slick as this game is the control is kind of sub-optimal I feel. I've started to use A a lot more for fast aerials because I feel like going from y to c-stick hurts my hand too much in long sessions. I don't see how x helps anything, but interestingly enough ken doesn't use the c-stick and uses x as well. I think A might make your combos cleaner because its easier to time pushing a button than flicking an analog stick

 

[dRevan64]

I can imagine that helps for fairing left, but can you fair facing right fast enough to double fair/waveland?

I don't know about him but using y I can double fair either direction while moving backwards and waveland, it took a lot of practice but that was like one of the first the first things I realized I wanted to do that I couldn't.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I can imagine that helps for fairing left, but can you fair facing right fast enough to double fair/waveland?

Easily, I do it between stocks often. It's really just a matter of practice and time haha I don't even think it's hard.

 

[Son of Slobodan]

pp i think he means going backwards while double-fairing which is literally impossible if you don't use the c-stick

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh nah I can do that too

 

[Bones0]

I don't know about him but using y I can double fair either direction while moving backwards and waveland, it took a lot of practice but that was like one of the first the first things I realized I wanted to do that I couldn't.

oh nah I can do that too

Are you guys talking about using X/Y + C-stick? I can do reverse SHDF just fine with Y+A, but sometimes I feel like I'm not getting the full backwards momentum because I have to stop drifting for the first fair (it's easy to C-stick the second one). It usually never matters for Marth because of how much he drifts, but I notice it a lot with Falco when I try to AC bair while drifting forwards (away from the opponent).

If you are going from X/Y to the C-stick, how exactly do you move your thumb, and what part of your hand do you use? At one point I was trying to use the lower part of my thumb that is connected with my palm, but I kept hitting B by accident and it just wasn't very consistently.

 

[Bones0]

I may struggle with fadeaway double fairs, but my double posts are still on point.

 

[dRevan64]

Are you guys talking about using X/Y + C-stick? I can do reverse SHDF just fine with Y+A, but sometimes I feel like I'm not getting the full backwards momentum because I have to stop drifting for the first fair (it's easy to C-stick the second one). It usually never matters for Marth because of how much he drifts, but I notice it a lot with Falco when I try to AC bair while drifting forwards (away from the opponent).

If you are going from X/Y to the C-stick, how exactly do you move your thumb, and what part of your hand do you use? At one point I was trying to use the lower part of my thumb that is connected with my palm, but I kept hitting B by accident and it just wasn't very consistently.

I was talking specifically about going from Y to the cstick to get the maximum amount of backwards momentum, which is actually easier with falco than marth because of the longer jumpsquat time. Description of what I do for marth:
When fairing to the right and moving left, I slide my thumb from Y to the cstick in a motion similar to a shorthop double laser from fox, but obviously going down further. When fairing to the left and moving right, I hit Y with the tip of my thumb and then use the base of my thumb for the fair–I've always been able to do this one without practice since my hand rests there naturally.

 

[BTmoney]

First off, the topic I care about is how to factor in decision making when you realize that you may have some inability to perform something correctly time and time again. For the 3+ years I must have attempted to get off the ledge with a wavedash thousands of times. However, I still see myself screwing it up. I think despite how often you do something you will still have some inherent failure rate in whatever you do. Practice just brings that failure rate from like 50% down to like 3% or something.

Again, I am uncertain if one should even bother factoring in your own failure when it comes to decision making. As in should you choose an option regardless of your ability to perform it or not?

Just an interesting note (and I think it's true if you check) Mango said a while ago (few months) he doesn't ledge dash and pretty much never does. I think it's true lol. But of course it's worth considering the possibility of you messing up if it's not something you know, that in this instance, you won't mess up. Especially when you have a "harder" guaranteed set up that you feel more comfortable with even though the other guaranteed set up (or best choice in this situation/whatever) is "easier." Just try to do what you can and practice what you can't

When I'm in rhythm I ledge dash all the time with every character I play, when I'm not I don't

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I may struggle with fadeaway double fairs, but my double posts are still on point.

Is there any reason to perform a double fair while backing up? I think you would be looking for reacting with a Fair to avoid getting hit while you back-up. But, if the first hit connects the 2nd one is unlikely to connect while you are backing up.

 

[Bones0]

Is there any reason to perform a double fair while backing up? I think you would be looking for reacting with a Fair to avoid getting hit while you back-up. But, if the first hit connects the 2nd one is unlikely to connect while you are backing up.

If they DD around the first one, the second one will protect you as you land. If you only do one, a Fox could sneak in on you with a usmash or something. In a more rare scenario, you might be reverse fair comboing someone from a SH, though I've never seen that before (unfortunately, since it sounds sick lol).

 

[dRevan64]

Is there any reason to perform a double fair while backing up? I think you would be looking for reacting with a Fair to avoid getting hit while you back-up. But, if the first hit connects the 2nd one is unlikely to connect while you are backing up.

You basically do it to put a wall up since there's a good chance the other guy will run into it.

 

[BTmoney]

To me it sounds like the same reason why you would do a retreating nair

 

[Deleted member]

Is there any reason to perform a double fair while backing up? I think you would be looking for reacting with a Fair to avoid getting hit while you back-up. But, if the first hit connects the 2nd one is unlikely to connect while you are backing up.

no. double fair is something you do after conversion.

 

[Kadano]

Idk how people go from Y to the C-stick quickly enough to do fairs/bairs. I tried to learn tap jumping so I could C-stick SH fadeaway fairs, but SHing seems impossible with the control stick. lol

I press Y with the tip of my thumb and move the C-stick with my thenar. I replaced the C-stick knob with a control stick knob to make this easier, and now my fulljump bair → rejump bair edgeguards look like they reach out as much as when M2K does them. It’s also easier for me to do ledgehop aerials and early shffl / autocancel u-airs that way.

 

[Son of Slobodan]

oh nah I can do that too

ive never seen u do it >.>, you can sort of do it with A, but you're not getting even half of the momentum. Regardless its pretty situational but its a frustrating limitation of the game cube controller/melee