Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

so

who wants to talk about peach? =)

I hope you took my warning in Armada's "retirement" thread:

You're all idiots. This is clearly an attempt to lull PP into a false sense of security.

DON'T FALL FOR IT PP.


It's secret Young Link drama all over again. Quote me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

how would this make me secure LOL

turnips:

I like jabbing them because the lag is low and and Peach can't punish it unless she's perfectly predicting my move or attempting to FC after the turnip. If she's trying to FC afterward(usually is) then I would just dash away. Peach may get a true approach from a turnip but that's no big deal because Marth can take the stage back through movement. In fact Peach should only get successful pulls normally if you get hit anyway so a mix of movement and shield/Nair/jab all handle the situation well in different ways. Counter is too big of a commitment with a small reward so I don't know why you'd do it unless you're super positive they want to attack afterward.

 

[Bones0]

how would this make me secure LOL

turnips:

I like jabbing them because the lag is low and and Peach can't punish it unless she's perfectly predicting my move or attempting to FC after the turnip. If she's trying to FC afterward(usually is) then I would just dash away. Peach may get a true approach from a turnip but that's no big deal because Marth can take the stage back through movement. In fact Peach should only get successful pulls normally if you get hit anyway so a mix of movement and shield/Nair/jab all handle the situation well in different ways. Counter is too big of a commitment with a small reward so I don't know why you'd do it unless you're super positive they want to attack afterward.

No, that post was from when Armada announced his retirement, not from when he announced he was coming out of retirement. lol


I saw Ether's Marth vs. DoH, and he was doing some insane stuff with turnips. He would jump towards them, grab them out of midair, immediately drop them, and then attack. He was doing it so smoothly it looked like he was going right through them. It's at least something to consider using once in a while if not outright relying on.

 

[Dr Peepee]

in that case I suppose I fell for it lmao

and I'm unsure of how easy it is to grab turnips but that would be pretty fun to do if it's not terribly difficult.

 

[AustinRC]

Grabbing turnips is a tad silly to me... Why let her pull them in the first place? I mean you can't always prevent her from pulling turnips but I'm not sure how good of a tech grabbing them is. Maybe I'm wrong though idk. I feel like shed hit you as you grabbed it. Or maybe catch them and zone her out with side b then hit her with the turnip into a follow up?

 

[Bones0]

Grabbing turnips is a tad silly to me... Why let her pull them in the first place? I mean you can't always prevent her from pulling turnips but I'm not sure how good of a tech grabbing them is. Maybe I'm wrong though idk. I feel like shed hit you as you grabbed it. Or maybe catch them and zone her out with side b then hit her with the turnip into a follow up?

Peach can only FC aerials (which basically means fair 90% of the time) or throw the turnip if she is holding one. That means letting her pull one takes away a lot of her most common and potent options such as dash attack, grab, dsmash, dtilt, etc. If she pulls a turnip and you can catch them consistently, then all you have to do is outspace FCed fairs which certainly isn't easy, but it's a hell of a lot better than dealing with grounded Peach if you ask me. This seems especially true with Marth who I'd say has the best anti-float game of the cast and simultaneously one of the worst, or at least one of the most difficult, anti-grounded Peach games. As far as getting hit, it's definitely something I thought about, but throw lag on turnips is a decent amount, and you can drop turnips almost immediately then fair or uair right after, and they both come out really quickly. I also remember seeing the turnip itself hitting after Ether dropped them because of how his momentum carried him into Peach as he caught and dropped it before Peach's lag ended.

 

[~Twitch~]

so

who wants to talk about peach? =)

so does this mean i get to have to get to learn peach again?

 

[BTmoney]

Can we talk about Falco lol :[

edit:

But I am up for contributing to Marth v. Peach. That's my favorite MU.

 

[Dr Peepee]

so does this mean i get to have to get to learn peach again?

not unless you reallllly want to

theorybros here I come

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Turnip -> Move out of the way or powershield attempt. Nothing else is good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair is good. Keeps Peach from coming in too hard and swats turnip away.

+1 vote for nair

not always tho

 

[CyberZixx]

How exactly do you advise using nair? I like the way PewpewU uses the move in combos and for edgeguards but i'm not a fan of Nair in neutral.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Great combo move, good for turnips

Ur pretty nuts to try it for much else often lol

 

[beencake]

Nair's also good in neutral because of auto cancel

 

[AustinRC]

It's not bad if you catch people trying to over shoot their aerial approaches at you. Other than that it doesn't seem to have much use in neutral, well I mean other than against turnips as well.

 

[knightpraetor]

it's really good retreating or in place. not so good going in. If you're moving in with nair then you have to swing early to get the hitbox out, while with fair you can manage to wait and react a lot of the time. if you land outside of actual punish range with the nair (i.e. the nair was not an approach but a bait) then it's fine since it autocancels, but in general sh forward and reactively fair is better than nair, though nair can be better if they are pinned in shield and you want them offstage, the extra knockback on the second hit can punish people for attempting CC by pushing them just out of range (not on marth or people with godly CC range obviously).

pretty sure there are more uses but they aren't springing to mind at the moment.

i wish i were better at comboing with nair.... you may have noticed these days but people tend to DI out after more than one iteration of fair chains a lot, you can punish these by setting up upairs into dairs with an earlier nair in the combo or using inner nair into fsmash.

but to be honest, I end up just fairing all the time in real matches

Good thing inner fair chains are not easy to get out in the few hits they have to DI. I do miss the old day when every tipper fair led to spike though...

edit: lol I was just talking about nair in general. You guys are talking about vs peach. I hate approaching nair vs peach unless she has a turnip. should theoretically be good places where hitting it could link to a potential low percent kill, but i don't think anyone really tries that. people tend to favor fair cause you don't need super specific percent and matchup knowledge to use it to combo

 

[Deleted member]

dash dance in a non-threatening way on purpose > let peach pull turnip > dashdance for real > wait until peach throws turnip > peach throws turnip > fair/bair/upair her throw animation > jump at her without committing your body box too much or actually attacking > force peach to waste 2nd jump > juggle forever and laugh > kill her > repeat 3 times

/peach

note the lack of nair. it's like every other match basically. don't nair. you're either saying "ok peach trade moves with me because i have all this range and don't want to use it for some reason" or you're saying "please dash attack me when i land from the air" and both lead to major game losses.

seriously people. stop using nair until you know what you're doing. MT's set vs hax had some godly marth play and nair usage and I STILL wouldn't recommend anyone to copy that aspect of his play.

 

[clowsui]

also learn to pivot to convert successful on throws vs peach

actually let me go post in kadano's thread to make an inquiry into this...

 

[Dr Peepee]

reacting to peach's turnip throw?

I don't believe I could do that.

 

[Deleted member]

try it sometime. basically you want to stay on her ass range wise but not open yourself up for a dash attack either. you don't have to get the timing exactly either, just as long as your swing negates the turnip box on the clash while still hitting her. it's not as bad as it sounds.

 

[Dr Peepee]

well I don't get a peach to practice on but I'll think on it.

when I'm close it's even harder to react, but I imagine I can fighting games my way into a pretty good setup

 

[AustinRC]

PP just dash dance right outside of her dash attack range. That way her dash attack will wiff if she does it and if she goes for a turnip you can react and get a grab/ dtilt. She has basically three options in that position two of them are bad so chances are she will full hop to try and reset everything by floating and making you weary of the fair. Just wait till you see her jump and then run full hop fair/ run away and short hop bair if she tries coming in on you with fair. After you notice her start to air dodge to prevent the full hop fair start short hopping to try and bait the air dodge. Just some thoughts some of it may not work.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm pretty sure we're talking about Armada peach, and against his peach just dash dancing outside of dash attack will not work.

 

[Bones0]

I'm pretty sure we're talking about Armada peach, and against his peach just dash dancing outside of dash attack will not work.

0:20

 

[AustinRC]

I'm pretty sure we're talking about Armada peach, and against his peach just dash dancing outside of dash attack will not work.

Attacking also probably wouldn't work either. Neither will trying to combo or, nah just put your controller down if you play against against Armada. He's unbeatable anyway.

 

[Kadano]

dash dance in a non-threatening way on purpose > let peach pull turnip > dashdance for real > wait until peach throws turnip > peach throws turnip > fair/bair/upair her throw animation

I’m wondering whether this is possible. All turnip throws (except dropping it, that takes 1 frame and has no lag) bring out the turnips hitbox on frame 10, so you’d have to either have a spacing where the turnip won’t hit you at all or a reaction time of 0 frames (4 frames kneebend and 5 frames until fair hits in front of you) if you don’t want to trade.

 

[Bones0]

Hey PP, have you considered the possibility of Armada going Sheik if you go Marth? Not that I think that should deter you from going Marth, but it's just something to consider.

And now that you bring up Marth vs. Sheik (incredibly convenient), some feedback on these matches would be awesome.

Bones (Marth) vs. Epsilon (Sheik)

 

[Divinokage]

in that case I suppose I fell for it lmao

and I'm unsure of how easy it is to grab turnips but that would be pretty fun to do if it's not terribly difficult.

Its not that hard to catch but the main problem with Marth his turnip (Item) throw is super slow, it's not worth it.. lol. Though you can maybe do some crazy setups by dropping it. =P

 

[Deleted member]

I’m wondering whether this is possible. All turnip throws (except dropping it, that takes 1 frame and has no lag) bring out the turnips hitbox on frame 10, so you’d have to either have a spacing where the turnip won’t hit you at all or a reaction time of 0 frames (4 frames kneebend and 5 frames until fair hits in front of you) if you don’t want to trade.

you're taking it too literally. the turnip can have an active hitbox and you can still swat both the turnip and peach pretty easily, or you can just swat her after she throws it. the idea here is that her usual turnip > FC aerial is something that marth can deal with reasonably well by encouraging her to engage marth with air to air exchanges. the real message here is that marth still wins in air to air exchanges, turnip or no, so you should allow her to pull them.

not allowing her to pull turnips at all encourages peach to go to challenging marth in a grounded neutral game where her dash attack essentially forces marth to limit his jumping so it goes back to dashdance camping. and yeah we can dashdance camp peach i guess but the match is just a lot easier when she jumps and floats.

 

[MT_]

What if Peach just does a grounded turnip throw?

 

[BTmoney]

Are there any tournament matches of PP's Marth vs a Falco (that's not free)?

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmTY6rgDPvM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJk2YTuEVRY

lmk why i suck

thanks

 

[Deleted member]

wobbles narrowly outwaits you in almost every exchange from neutral. rewatch your play and look at his timing vs yours. you're still swinging blind sometimes even thought your technique is crisp in both execution and spacing. force more restraint into your play and allow yourself to feel comfortable playing with just a touch more observation.

particularly note your play vs sopo in match 1 to make it most obvious.

your play overall has definitely improved.

 

[Strong Badam]

Are there any tournament matches of PP's Marth vs a Falco (that's not free)?

winner's finals of Kings of Cali he tried it on FD against Mango.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Hey PP don't forget that armada apparently knows the spacing of Marth's SH double jump uair so don't get punished for that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

lmao not the koc one unless you really want to do that

thanks for elaborating max

and yeah sacredtwin I kinda figured he did know but that always seemed strange to me. thanks!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So, I was bored.

Spoiler

so who wants to talk about peach? =)

Oh yeah! Lets talk about peach! Love dat butt.

Calm=especially good vs floaties.

WTF you talkin' about Captain America? You just need to aggro that shiz.

Helps keep my mind in it sir.

Don't be Sir'ing your nemesis! All of that American justice bullcrap is going to your head. You just got to thrust your sword in there and keep going and secure victory.​

how would this make me secure LOL

I don't pay attention to that stuff. You just "swing sword -> magic stuff happens -> victory."

I don't believe I could do that.

Of course you can ther' Captain America! Just use your sword.​

lmao not the koc one unless you really want to do that

​

Oh, gawd! What are you talking about? I mean the steel one. The steel one. WTF am I talking about?​

​

​

 

[CyberZixx]

I am having issue edguarding spacies. Namely that they always are able to side b right past me as I am terrible at stopping it. I read some of the theory a few pages back but i'm so bad. I was wondering if maybe i'm doing something wrong to allow them to recover from that height in the first place.

 

[Bones0]

I am having issue edguarding spacies. Namely that they always are able to side b right past me as I am terrible at stopping it. I read some of the theory a few pages back but i'm so bad. I was wondering if maybe i'm doing something wrong to allow them to recover from that height in the first place.

If they can DJ above your jab, SH to follow their height and fair on reaction to their side-B. If they can't, jab side-Bs above the ledge. If they don't side-B above the ledge, dtilt the ledge height side-B. If they up-B at any point, you should be landing from an empty hop or standing still waiting. If they are close, run off and hit them, if not, stay on stage and edgeguard. Never fsmash unless it's guaranteed and they can't tech it.

That's the gist of Marth's edgeguarding vs. spacies. There's obviously a lot of details and subtleties concerning how best to do the above options and how to deal with situations where you can't get fully set up asap, but that's a good enough outline to practice with. The most important part is just being able to react to the side-B. If they are just side-Bing through you as you stand on stage, then you just need to be ready for it and practice hitting them on reaction. If your move clanks with the side-B hitbox, you did it too slow.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

If you find yourself in landing lag as you're getting side-b, try a neu-b. You can keep charging it from aerial to grounded state and simply release it if they drop too low for neu-b and decide to up-b instead.....or just hit'their up-b with it fully charged. Roystyle.