Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kadano]

can't you crouch cancel the phantasm and punish accordingly as well?

Not even at 0%. You can cc it, but the kind of hitstun animation you enter has too much lag.

Could you SH backwards with a rising fair to hit the first hitbox? Then, depending on how you space your landing, you could falling uair or just FF grab before their lag ends.

Falco can shield just at the frame uair would hit. As grab takes longer, he can easily avoid it with shine/spot dodge/… . On FD, it’s definitely not good compared to the other options. On other stages, it might be useful, I’ll test this later.

How many frames of lag do you have after clinks?

First, you have hitlag that is calculated normally ((dmg+8)/3). Then you enter »REBOUND« phase that lasts 2 times as long as the hitlag before, sometimes 1 frame less. Don’t know the exact formula, if someone else does, please tell me.

If you could jab to clink with the first hitbox and immediately dash back afterwards, would it be faster than, say, ftilting? What happens if you use B moves?

Yeah, that would be faster than using ftilt. Both jab and ftilt are fast enough to JC or dash grab in time. Hell, even fsmash is over early enough, except if you tipper as it overpowers phantasm.

It just might not be as optimal as something link clinking and fsmashing them off the other side with awful DI because they expected a shield, WD, grab.

Great idea! Yeah, that works, spacing this correctly doesn’t seem too easy but definitely possible. If Marth is standing at the position he’s in at the beginning of the gif in my last post, he needs to dash back at least 3 frames before pivot fsmash so he will hit. Of course, you can also choose that position in the beginning if you expect Falco to do it.

If you’re wondering if Falco can work around this by using phantasm later when he’s higher in the air: On FD, that does him no good. If Falco does his phantasm low enough so it can hit Marth, jab will always clank. If he does it higher, Marth has more than enough time to choose to wait instead of jab and punish freely.

I'm pretty sure Falco's Phantasm starts up a few frames faster because I remember M2K saying it made it significantly harder to jab Falco's side-B on reaction (I want to say 3-4 frames, but I'm sure Kadano can clarify regardless).

Why do I need to clarify stuff that is easily found in those “COMPLETE: Spacies’ hitbox and frame data” threads? The Falco one was even created by you, lol.
Anyway, the difference is indeed 4 frames. The only thing that’s 3 frames apart is the shortest shorten input window. So Falco has a harder time shortening than Fox.
Still, there are 17 frames before the phantasm hitbox come out. Considering Marth’s jab startup is only 3 frames, you can easily do that on reaction. If Falco shortens, Marth can grab in time.

 

[Strong Badam]

hitlag is floor((dmg+3)/3)

the hitstun you receive is based on how much knockback the hitboxes deal. i don't know where the article hitboxes are for falco's phantasm (it's an article which is why marth goes through hitlag while falco does not, granting him more effective frame advantage) or I'd tell you how to calculate it (it would most likely be different depending on opponent's weight).

edit: oh, the rebound you're talking about is the clank animation. idk how to calculate that.

 

[Kadano]

hitlag is floor((dmg+3)/3)

What does floor mean in this context?
I can say for sure that 4 dmg hitboxes cause 4 frames of hitlag—which is exactly (4+8)/3.

the hitstun you receive is based on how much knockback the hitboxes deal. i don't know where the article hitboxes are for falco's phantasm (it's an article which is why marth goes through hitlag while falco does not, granting him more effective frame advantage) or I'd tell you how to calculate it (it would most likely be different depending on opponent's weight).

Do you remember who wrote that article? Sounds really interesting. Falco’s hitbox clanking is really weird—if his fsmash collides with Marth’s tipper fsmash, Marth goes in rebound, but Falco does not. Which I can’t make any sense of.
Is there a Magus post on hitbox priority attributes? In the “SSBM Hitboxes” Excel file, there are “Clang” values from 0-3, but I don’t believe that—and hitbox damage—is all there is to it.

 

[Strong Badam]

oops, morning brain **** ups, i meant to say floor((dmg/3)+3). floor means to round down. the entire formula is such:
[collapse=Hitlag formula]
Hitlag = floor{floor{floor{(Damage * 0.3333334 + 3)} * Electric} * CC}

Electric = 1.5 if the attack is of electric element. 1.0 at all times for attacker, however.

CC = 2/3rd for victim only if victim is currently Crouch Canceling.

Damage is staled damage.
[/collapse]

by "article hitboxes" i mean hitboxes that are attached to in-game "articles" which is what the game refers to projectiles as.

 

[Bones0]

Why do I need to clarify stuff that is easily found in those “COMPLETE: Spacies’ hitbox and frame data” threads?

It's a combination of me being lazy and you having a "frame data god" reputation to uphold.

 

[Dr Peepee]

dang marth boards are intense.

I decided I would never let Falco's side B trick me any more because I had 17 frames to react. If I can't figure that out I deserve to get hit by it lol. Surprisingly, this knowledge alone makes me feel more confident and more accurate in reacting to/catching side Bs.

Funny.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Now what about Fox? He creates a lot more distance than Falco with his ledgehop phantasm.

Is the best option to just CC his frame-perfect invicinble side-b? (I don't like the idea of rolling backwards in reaction because it can be baited out)

 

[Bones0]

Now what about Fox? He creates a lot more distance than Falco with his ledgehop phantasm.

Is the best option to just CC his frame-perfect invicinble side-b? (I don't like the idea of rolling backwards in reaction because it can be baited out)

They can't bait a roll if you are rolling on reaction... Idk why you would roll anyway. You can probably just shield the side-B, WD out, and grab/DA, or you can do something like discussed above where you neutralize their side-B hitbox by attacking it, and then punishing them after your clank rebound ends.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

They can't bait a roll if you are rolling on reaction... Idk why you would roll anyway. You can probably just shield the side-B, WD out, and grab/DA, or you can do something like discussed above where you neutralize their side-B hitbox by attacking it, and then punishing them after your clank rebound ends.

You can react-roll to the side-b start-up, but it turns into a bait when the side-b is shortened for the edge again instead of aiming for center stage.
I know you can do those things in response, and saw the frame data applied, but my only thought after digesting all of that was "such small frame windows to punish an invincible ledgehop phantasm after clinking with it, what more if you were trying to punish Fox who travels twice the distance?"

 

[Kadano]

my only thought after digesting all of that was "such small frame windows to punish an invincible ledgehop phantasm after clinking with it, what more if you were trying to punish Fox who travels twice the distance?"

That distance difference is really slim:

On the far left, you can see the starting point. On the right hand, you have Falco (left) and Fox on their first landing frames of full length →B.
Just stand away from the ledge a bit more than against Falco and you can do jab → tipper fsmash/grab just as well. Standing too close to the ledge is a bad idea against Fox hanging there anyway—invincible upsmash and grab are not something to mess with.

Edit: If spacies decide to go for edge canceled B from the ledge, you can fsmash or utilt on reaction easily.
If you land a reverse utilt, you can follow up with inescapable uair chains to tipper fsmash from about 45% on.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Wow. I just tested it. The hole in my spatial logic was that Falco's aerial side-b is actually longer than his ground one and Fox's remains the same.

I also found out that Fox's up-B travels farther than his phantasm. Falco's side-b and phantasm seem to be about the same.

 

[Xyzz]

I think aerial side b is a tad bit longer than up b, but I might be wrong there

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I think there's untapped potential behind using Marth's second-hit side-b to trick edgeguarders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZh-n_ukw1Q#t=2m25s

 

[knightpraetor]

I agree, but not cause of that first one. fair would have worked fine there. The 6:00 one seemed like a much better place to use it

 

[AceDudeyeah]

So you're saying, not just to hit opponent's with, but as a way to make yourself fast-fall in the middle of your side-b?

 

[Kadano]

So you're saying, not just to hit opponent's with, but as a way to make yourself fast-fall in the middle of your side-b?

DB2 makes you fall slower than if you only use DB1, not faster.

 

[Deleted member]

i think kadano should be in the cool kid's club with me kevin and chi.

 

[BTmoney]

I never really thought about this but can Marth get true regrab tech chases versus anyone (as in anyone, not everyone)?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It wouldn't be at every percent since fthrow/dthrow with DI can put people off ledges by sliding off as percents grow. To a lesser degree the same thing with potentially landing on platforms. I am not sure when moves like fthrow even start to knock people over or dthrow or bthrow.

 

[Kadano]

Depends on your definition of true. The little tests I just ran suggest Marth can fthrow techchase Falco unless Falco abuses no tech → SDI↑ on your force-getup-attempt. That way, he can shine you after you jabbed him.
Like Eryx Vexia wrote in the next post, there is no need to force getup though—12 frames reaction time is sufficient to react to all of Falco’s options out of »DOWNBOUNDD«/»DOWNWAITD«. For getup-attack, you even have 20 frames to react if you want to avoid powershield (can’t always grab him afterwards, depending on spacing)

Falco’s neutral tech and techrolls you can react to even with a really bad reaction time like I have (12 frames) by WDing towards him after fthrow. Techchase with dthrow is worse, if he DIs away from you and rolls away, you can’t grab him in time even if you start dashing just after dthrow ended. You can, however, get him with tipper dtilt and dsmash by canceling your run into crouch.

It wouldn't be at every percent since fthrow/dthrow with DI can put people off ledges by sliding off as percents grow. To a lesser degree the same thing with potentially landing on platforms. I am not sure when moves like fthrow even start to knock people over or dthrow or bthrow.

While that is true, it should be noted that ledgecanceling your tech immediately ends invincibility, so if you call Falco attempting this, you can tipper F/Dsmash him.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

All characters are forced to stand-up after being knocked over on the ground due to some timer. So, you have no reason to force a get-up attempt when the character will do it themselves anyway. You just have to wait.

 

[BTmoney]

Depends on your definition of true. The little tests I just ran suggest Marth can fthrow techchase Falco unless Falco abuses no tech → SDI↑ on your force-getup-attempt. That way, he can shine you after you jabbed him.
Like Eryx Vexia wrote in the next post, there is no need to force getup though—12 frames reaction time is sufficient to react to all of Falco’s options out of »DOWNBOUNDD«/»DOWNWAITD«. For getup-attack, you even have 20 frames to react if you want to avoid powershield (can’t always grab him afterwards, depending on spacing)

Falco’s neutral tech and techrolls you can react to even with a really bad reaction time like I have (12 frames) by WDing towards him after fthrow. Techchase with dthrow is worse, if he DIs away from you and rolls away, you can’t grab him in time even if you start dashing just after dthrow ended. You can, however, get him with tipper dtilt and dsmash by canceling your run into crouch.

All very useful information.

Also great job to PP today! I don't even think you realize how perfect your spacing is lol (no spoilers)

 

[Bones0]

All very useful information.

Also great job to PP today! I don't even think you realize how perfect your spacing is lol (no spoilers)

Spoiler

Did PP go Marth and I missed it?

 

[noobird]

^no. 10 nos

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Depends on your definition of true. The little tests I just ran suggest Marth can fthrow techchase Falco unless Falco abuses no tech → SDI↑ on your force-getup-attempt. That way, he can shine you after you jabbed him.
Like Eryx Vexia wrote in the next post, there is no need to force getup though—12 frames reaction time is sufficient to react to all of Falco’s options out of »DOWNBOUNDD«/»DOWNWAITD«. For getup-attack, you even have 20 frames to react if you want to avoid powershield (can’t always grab him afterwards, depending on spacing)

12-20 frames, so total of 19-27 frames counting grab startup?

 

[Kadano]

12-20 frames, so total of 19-27 frames counting grab startup?

No. That wouldn’t work as the hitbox comes out invincible. You need to shieldgrab. (That’s why I mentioned powershield)

 

[AceDudeyeah]

So shieldgrabbing a get-up attack is a total window of 27 frames, 7 of which is the start-up which brings it down to 20 frame reaction window?

 

[Kadano]

So shieldgrabbing a get-up attack is a total of 27 frames, 7 of which is the start-up which brings it down to 20 frames of reaction?

Still no. There’s also shield hitlag and shield stun. I don’t see where you’re getting at though.

After fthrow, get-up attack always comes out towards you on frame 25. Get-up attack’s animation is distinguishable from frame 2~4 (2-3 are quite similar to roll towards so it’s hard to tell them apart so early) on, so that leaves at least 15 frames to react with shield (4 more if you also accept PS).

 

[knightpraetor]

it would be nice to have a section on techchasing in your main thread, particularly with how long you have ot react to each option. I have always been curious about that. I for one have a very difficult time getting all the options covered..but i think you're talking about missed techs here which are a lot less scary...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

IMO, it would be most useful to know which side characters get-up attacks hit on first and their ranges. This way I could better adjust my spacing and timing if I end up missing a rebound punish. If I am on a side of a character that the get-up attack hits on last, then I can DD closer to them without much worry and go further away only when I see the get-up attack on the far side first. Being able to get closer with DD makes it easier to cover tech in place and roll away.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Can anyone give any advice on the Link/Samus matchups? I'm having a lot of trouble in neutral getting the first hit without taking a lot of damage and getting through the wall of projectiles/tilts/etc.

 

[Tarv]

I could give it a shot for Samus? In the neutral position it's all about patience, Samus' love poor approaches and most Samus' worth their salt can really capitalize on over aggression. In my opinion she's a character who doesn't really benefit from being aggressive so has to rely on a defensive/counter based game play. In the neutral position the thing you need to worry about is missiles which honestly I still have trouble dealing with. For the most part you want to powershield smash missiles and avoid regular missiles entirely. People will tell you to jump over smash missiles but I feel like this is a mistake because those missiles are often a feint; jump over that missile and they hit you with another one. You can also Fair through smash missiles if your timing is correct I believe. If you're able to get through the missiles though the MU becomes a lot easier. Samus, again, is all about defense so once you get in most Samus usually opt for crouch-canceling, WD back downsmash/dtilt, spot dodge jab/shield poke. The best counter to this in my opinion is superior movement via a good DD, approaching with dtilt, well spaced fairs and grabs. If the Samus is abusing crouch canceling or is shielding you a lot then upthrow becomes your best friend. As good as Samus' is on the ground defensively as soon as she's in the air she kind of sucks. So once you can get that grab in just utilt/uair her forever. Remember she's a lot easier to kill vertically than horizontally. But if you want to kill her the more difficult way (for whatever reason), the best way to do this is to be patient and to mess up her bomb jumps. Or just be awesome and dair her off the stage.

Hope some of this was helpful.

ps

Stage Selection: Always strike FoD and DL in my opinion. FD, and YS are in your favor. YS is Samus' worst stage, and probably Marth's best stage in this match-up. She can't really avoid you and because of thestage's small size the platforms don't really help her. FD's lack of platforms makes it difficult for Samus' to missile cancel and get in properly (it's kind of amazing how much they rely on platform movement to get in.) BF is probably even with a slight edge to Marth but I could see it being argued either way. PS in the neutral transformation is even, the other transformation are kind of wishy-washy.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Maybe I should have thought of using this guy just this once again.

Either way I'll be sure to stick around here.

 

[Deleted member]

remember when i was like "all you play are characters that spike and kill people at 30%" and you were all like "shhh max let me do that thing". LOL

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm so mad at you right now

 

[BTmoney]

Maybe I should have thought of using this guy just this once again.

Either way I'll be sure to stick around here.

start pivot fsmashing and break the character =]

 

[Dr Peepee]

Really is what I need to learn to do lmao.

I'm on it!

 

[AustinRC]

I'VE BEEN TELLING YOU THIS FOREVER! *RAGE*

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah well

I still don't get it LOL

I'll call/text you about it later after I've played with it more

 

[Bones0]

Really is what I need to learn to do lmao.

I'm on it!

It's not just for Marth!