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shout-outs to tai for playing like a total man in every video from like the last 2 months. looks real good andrew, keep it up.
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AustinRC I understand it has some usage for combo links, but I don't think marth really has a problem there. Definitely beneficial though.
Your non-combo examples are exactly my point. Fsmash is bad because it's basically punishable on reaction and you can't react with it, making it count as a huge commit. You're plan is to guess their options from a bad situation (shield/ledge) and punish with fsmash. This is worse than just punishing their choice on reaction. Not only are you giving them outs, you're giving them choices that transition them from a losing disadvantage to a winning advantage.
Also, the only real benefit is killing earlier to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. Damage doesn't matter. I figured Apex grand finals would have emphasized this not the other way around =/
well honestly it would help to know if you're asking about Marth, yoshi, or falco =]I'm not trying to have my dashdance inside of their range, but I think it is easy for a fast opponent to move forward slightly, causing my dashdance to be within their range. As in I start outside of their range, but as they move inward, I don't have a way to exit without going into full dash away, or wavedash. I guess what I should be doing is not letting them get that close, and punish their movement in.
This is one part me asking a question, and one part talking through a problem, that doesn't seem too complicated. . .
shout-outs to tai for playing like a total man in every video from like the last 2 months. looks real good andrew, keep it up.
Mow what's your MU spread for Marth look like, be very general
edit:
Mostly because I don't think any character other than Falco can match up with and best the style you describe. maybe the gayest of all gay foxes but no one plays like that
also someone help me do this, I'm begging you. 3:21
http://youtu.be/tJk2YTuEVRY?t=3m21s
I was working on something and basically I want to do that sticky walk at 3:21. How do you do that (is that a moon walk) and how to stay in place while maintaing backwards momentum?
Moving backwards noticably with Marth by moonwalking is only possible by walking or wavedashing in the opposite direction before. There are two ways of best moonwalks:I was working on something and basically I want to do that sticky walk at 3:21. How do you do that (is that a moon walk) and how to stay in place while maintaing backwards momentum?
I would be really surprised if there was one.Is there any use for sticky walking other than to look fancy?
Like a responsibility I need to live up to lol. It's something I need to take seriously so I leave a special mark on the game and also prove my ability to myself.Dr. PeePee, how does it feel to be the only top-pro Melee Falco player worth anything these days?
I can agree with it being sub-optimal from neutral. On an unrelated note saying that "Peach has no options to avoid damage endlessly until she dies." seems a bit over the top to me. If that were the case PP would have won that second set. (sry pp T.T) When peach is thrown up in the air it's a disadvantageous position for sure and her options aren't very good but she still has options such as float and air dodge. Once she burns through those options though you are correct she is basically a sitting duck and will most likely have to take a decent chunk of percent to try an attempted to grab the ledge or land on the stage. The thing is once you get peach in the air it becomes another mix up in which you have to read your opponents ****ty options to get more percent just because her options are bad doesn't mean she doesn't have any or that its free.@AustinRC:
Things like Mango reading a roll with up smash are sub-optimal. He gave Hungrybox outs, worse is that those outs led to a free grab or attack on Mango. Hungrybox had winning options when better coverage could have prevented him from even being able to reset to neutral. His decision was incorrect even though he guessed right and it worked out. Just because you win 9/10 times isn't justification for throwing away the 10th one.
Just because it's Armada doesn't mean he can ignore the rules of of the game. In those long juggle situations the rules of the game state that she has no options to avoid damage endlessly until she dies. He can't guess right to get out, in fact he can't do anything to get out. This means that all the damage in the juggle is free and unblockable, and more importantly the situation doesn't change. Gravity still requires that peach will need to land, the only change is you have to wait longer for her to fall close again. The only hope peach has is that you will mess up. The damage doesn't make any difference except to ensure that she will eventually die. This type of play eliminates the "killing problem" since it's no longer an issue what % they die at. You should have more faith in your ability to execute perfectly than your ability to read your opponents mind perfectly. A main gain from this is you can eliminate more committal things from your neutral play like forward smash or dash attack because you render death just the same from grab.
Are you talking about top 8, or....?Falco and Marth both underperformed at evo which is kind of interesting. There is such an incredibly low sample size in smash, tho, so it's not really worth reacting to. Over the course of the past few years their results have looked more consistent.
Alright I don't have a lot of time and won't be here much for a while, so I can only answer the first part of your Q(bring it back up when I'm back on like Monday and I got you.)PP, that was all I was wanting. When you dashdance, you move a good sized area, your dash range(1), but also move the average area you occupy(2)(midpoint). When you're saying moving forward to apply pressure, and moving back to bait, are you talking about each dash interaction applying pressure, then baiting(1)? Or are you referring to the average, gradual movement forward/backward(2)?
If it is (1) you're talking about, would you consider the bait to be pretty predictable? (You always dash away after you dash forward in a dashdance). What if, for example, you're doing a small, tight, dashdance right outside of their range, then do a long dash in, long dash out, before dashing tight again. would you consider the whole cycle a bait? (not trying to pull them into you, but trying to coax them into punishing your movement in) This seems like it requires extremely tight spacing and dashdances.
If it is (2), would you consider a gradual dashdance into their range, then a gradual dashdance out, as a viable bait? I feel like I'm stuck in the movement of the dashdance, and can't move back quickly enough after they respond to my dash forward.
Blacktician, I was talking very open-endedly. I'm trying to develop my movement for all of my characters. Yoshi of course being the end goal. I find if I practice a concept generally, then narrow it down toward Yoshi, it works out better. . . not sure why. Maybe my experience with Yoshi gives me tunnel vision?
Pivot stop out of dash dance is gonna be the next big thing guys. Think about it.
Yeah I actually pretty much agree with everything said here as I've playtested it a little (not very seriously though; and I haven't practiced the technique that much). There was a particular scenario I was thinking it would be great in, probably because I find myself having trouble dealing with this situation personally. It's when you have an opponent cornered at the ledge and you start dash dancing to bait a roll/WD OoS and give threat of run up grab (thinking about it, dash dance is probably not very good here lol so maybe I should reconsider that first); I find that at higher levels of play, my opponent will simply just remain and shield and not fall for the roll bait. Run up grab here is also quite risky as a way to enforce the threat of your dash dance; but if I could simply abruptly stop my dashdance facing my opponent, then all my options have opened up again and their shield has now decayed to some extent due to their waiting it out in shield. From here, d-tilt would be a great option. But the beauty of pivot stop is that you can ALSO do things that don't need visual confirmation, namely jab and jump (pivot nairs anyone?). (In addition, you also have ftilt, neutral B, but these are superfluous and I'm only mentioning them for sake of completion). You're right that WD down out of DD is good too though, but I feel that that gives your opponent a visual confirmation of you canceling your dash dance that they don't quite get if you just pivot stop.Alright, so I've been trying this out (mainly dtilt because I think that is going to be the most valuable asset, but also jab and the other tilts) during some practice sessions today, and while reaching an at least acceptable level of consistency seems to be completely feasible, I've also found some issues which need to be taken into consideration:
Ideally, you want to do pivot stop -> dtilt as one quick, "unified" motion, as it would be the fastest way of doing it. However, if you mess up the execution you'll do an unintentional dash attack instead***, and considering that even intentional dash attacks generally aren't particularly reliable in the neutral game, this means you have to reach near-perfect consistency with it unless you want to turn what is supposed to be low risk - low/med reward into high risk - low/med reward, which would sort of defeat the entire purpose of doing it.
One way to bypass this drawback is to wait for visual confirmation of the stop before you do the dtilt input. This alleviates the level of execution that's demanded of you and is obviously inherently better in situations where you're not actually sure you want to dtilt and want to keep your options as open as possible. However, it carries some disadvantages of its own:
1. The risk of messing up the pivot execution is still there, and while an unintentional empty dash towards your opponent is generally nowhere near as bad as an unintentional dash attack, it's still pretty damn undesirable against a competent player.
2. In situations where you're certain you actually want to pivot dtilt, there's really no way around the fact that this "loophole" (in lack of a better word) is just plain slower. While this may not necessarily be a big issue in some situations, I can't help but feel that it'll make the technique's area of use more niche than it has to be.
3. If you've taken the above into account but don't mind sacrificing some speed for easier execution and less severe consequenses for messing up, this entire technique may in fact be inferior to another alternative, namely WD down, which is extremely easy to be consistent with, and pretty much just as fast (try it out yourselves; it's surprisingly fast. Also, when I say it's just as fast, remember that I'm comparing to pivot stop -> *wait for visual confirmation*. You don't have to wait for visual confirmation with WD down since it's so easy to do.).
***This applies to pivot fsmash and ftilt as well, but pivot fsmash is much easier to be consistent with and is generally used more often in situations where an accidental dash attack isn't as big of a deal.
This post may seem a bit negative, but I'm actually feeling pretty optimistic about the whole thing overall. I just think that generally, prioritizing focus on the issues with newly found techniques and ideas is a good and efficient way of finding out if it even has a chance of being worth learning.
Keep in mind that these reflections are a result of just one day of playtesting (and by one day, I mean in the sense of thirty minutes here, thirty minutes there), so there's plenty of room for revision and new revelations.
Are you talking about top 8, or....?
Marth should be doing so much better it kills me.
I can agree with it being sub-optimal from neutral. On an unrelated note saying that "Peach has no options to avoid damage endlessly until she dies." seems a bit over the top to me. If that were the case PP would have won that second set. (sry pp T.T) When peach is thrown up in the air it's a disadvantageous position for sure and her options aren't very good but she still has options such as float and air dodge. Once she burns through those options though you are correct she is basically a sitting duck and will most likely have to take a decent chunk of percent to try an attempted to grab the ledge or land on the stage. The thing is once you get peach in the air it becomes another mix up in which you have to read your opponents ****ty options to get more percent just because her options are bad doesn't mean she doesn't have any or that its free.
With how you were explaining it it seemed as though it was an auto win. I think I'm starting to see what you're saying though. I'm sure that it's possible on the highest level of play however I haven't seen it and it seems like theory crafting to me. Closest I've seen is PP's so that's what I've been basing the matchup on lately. With what you've said and another person I've talked with I'll have to give this all a second thought and start playing around with it myself and maybe incorporate it more into my play. Thanks for providing me with a different perspective.Just because PP wins or doesn't win a set doesn't mean the strategy is flawed. Marth is crazy good in air-to-air and peach is slow and fat. Watching the set you can see points where PP overextends and armada gets under him. You can also see when marth can just outwait peach since while grounded his mobility and range still exceed peach's and he can wait forever while float only last so long. Airdodge through swings is coverable unless you extend too hard. As long as your coverage forces an up hit or up throw it's free damage. Marth may not even have to allow peach to grab ledge if she tries for it, but even so she can't do anything off the ledge anyway, she doesn't really get any options because of it.
This is an interesting point, which increases the appeal of WD down as an alternative even more. I suppose time will tell. I went from not having anything that even resembled consistency to a 50-60-ish% success rate over the course of a day, so I'm staying optimistic for the time being. Although I'll probably need to fix the fact that the entire left part of my upper body twitches notably every time I do the motion, lol.So I'm wondering whether it's worth mastering... Can the controller last? What if the motion you used to do it with didn't work because the controller randomly didn't register it and you didn't realize it in a match and assumed it was your own fault? I don't know the ins and outs of how the control stick works and what makes it easier for me to do pivot stops or what makes it easier for me to do reverse B moves in the air.
Indeed. On YS, you can get kills at ridiculously low percents.although killing people at like 60 from a throw > tipped fsmash combo sounds amazing
mow get off kevin's accountI treat pussy like weed cause I pass it around.