Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

this is going to be a page full of my anger

 

[FrootLoop]

Forward smash in neutral is pretty horrible pivot or not. Think about marth's neutral game and why forward smash isn't a part of it, then it should be clear that pivoting doesn't fix anything.

Just rewatched that tutorial video and a lot of it was either bad neutral ideas or stuff that could be done much more simply with walk or wavedash.

 

[iffy525]

It's sad that no marths made top 16. But I think you made the right choice PP, I mean you stuck with falco and beat armada with him.

But why are you saying "just this once"? I thought marth was going to be solid secondary for you. People are excited to see it.

 

[Tee ay eye]

didn't taj make top 16

 

[Dr Peepee]

Taj went more M2 allegedly.

And I'm really uncertain about what is going to happen with Marth in the future. I do wanna do great things with him for the people and myself though haha. =p


Edit: Fsmash at neutral is eh but it's the only way to connect it appropriately out of many throw DIs, making it a powerful way to land kills.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Are there no circumstance at all at EVO where you thought Marth might have helped at all? Are you picking up Marth because you feel you need a secondary at all? Or just because it would be cool?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like it wouldn't have mattered since I seemed more off anyway, but potentially Marth would have shifted my focus like he surprisingly did at Apex 2013(uncertainty).

Mango seemed to consistently 1-2 stock my Marth in friendlies before Zenith(didn't feel like my same Marth but I'll let that one ride,) and Wobbles had Taj practice so it would have possibly been harder to do that than fighting Mango with Marth(at least I know Fox vs Marth somewhat lol.)

 

[FrootLoop]

Yeah it definitely has some niche combo link usage

 

[AustinRC]

Forward smash in neutral is pretty horrible pivot or not. Think about marth's neutral game and why forward smash isn't a part of it, then it should be clear that pivoting doesn't fix anything.

Just rewatched that tutorial video and a lot of it was either bad neutral ideas or stuff that could be done much more simply with walk or wavedash.

Okay I will admit the uthrow into pivot fsmash was POINTless *punintentional* however it adds a lot of swag to your character! Never forget style points!

Joking aside you can do things to make pivot fsmash safe, however you still have to be smart about it. You have to condition your opponent into something where you could pull it off.

Such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-LHEn3p5PY#t=2m9s
This point in neutral I used it because I recognized my opponent was spot dodging a lot because he was anticipating a grab. It honestly shouldn't have worked in THIS particular instance but w/e I'm putting it down anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD1jGS4ypBY#t=38s
I wedged it in here because I was very certain he would come from the ledge with an attack. Even if he tried to wavedash on it would have hit. He could have rolled or just did regular stand up.

My point is during the neutral when you are able to condition someone into doing certain things you shouldn't just say "It's bad it shouldn't be used at all." because it IS applicable in certain instances and it really helps Marth get around his little % problem.
Also wavedash fsmash doesn't cover certain DI's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3siP7rw0S0#t=6m14s

Here is a prime example of wavedash fsmash not being good in this instance for one of two reasons. #1 he could probably shake out and air dodged out after the wavedash, #2 fsmash wouldn't have tippered.

Now if you are talking about forward throw vs jigglypuff/ Peach then they both have uses on certain DI's.

DISCLAIMER:: Pivoting is not all there ever was or all there ever will be. You should not try and use it in EVERY instance. Do not form your "style" around pivoting. It is simply a tool that helps Marth get kills and it's one that I believe is a strong tool he will need if he wants to actually start placing higher in tournaments again.

 

[Deleted member]

marths aren't going to start placing again regardless. the tactics favored by this gen of players simply aren't good for marth so there's a lack of knowledge that would normally transfer between characters. if we can shift the standard of play toward tight dashdances and a willingness to use the disjointed incrementalism that i mentioned several months ago, marth becomes a substantially better character. as is right now, most people just play every character like it's falco. marth sucks at that style really bad.

 

[Tarv]

Umbreon, tell us the story of "the disjointed incrementalism".... *eyes sparkle*

Either that or I would appreciate it if you could direct me to those posts/discussion unless of course you actually used the term "disjointed incrementalism" in which case I'll just search for it myself.

Thanks


Edit: Never mind. I found the post.

Edit2: *sigh* I don't understand this character game at all it seems.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Compared to yourself there are... Worse players. Similar players. Better players.

It always seems like people are...
-unwilling to hear out worse players and simply shut them out.
-critically evaluate the people similar to them and most likely never listen to them in the end.
-take what the better players say and never question it.

Shouldn't it be more like pointing out what the worse players are doing wrong and cultivate the stuff they are doing correct? Look to those similar to you for new ideas and try it out? Take what the better players say and try to really understand what is being meant. All the while critically evaluate whatever anyone tells you?

 

[Deleted member]

http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...rs-stuff-thread.118998/page-288#post-15268765

sometimes i go back and read my old posts and think "wow these are genius". i was on a roll that week or something.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Like it's pretty easy to watch a video and see an opportunity where a player could have fsmashed, but when I'm playing, I have a tendency to only land fsmashes when I'm looking for them.

Blast from the past, but I think this sounds interesting.
What if you look at your matches more as if you were viewing someone else playing them? Has anyone ever tried some completely new approach to actually -looking- at the game like that? I have no idea if this could be effective, but it might allow you to take a step back from just being you playing and looking at it like you would view PP vs Mango or something.

 

[Bones0]

Blast from the past, but I think this sounds interesting.
What if you look at your matches more as if you were viewing someone else playing them? Has anyone ever tried some completely new approach to actually -looking- at the game like that? I have no idea if this could be effective, but it might allow you to take a step back from just being you playing and looking at it like you would view PP vs Mango or something.

Are you suggesting studying vids of yourself as if they were someone else? That seems pretty normal. If you meant playing while pretending you are someone else, then I think it's interesting. I have done it before, but I can't tell if I'm actually making decisions like PP or Mango or if I'm just so intent on focusing in general that it makes it easier to play. I remember doing the same thing in Halo. I would pretend to be a pro player and do way better because it sort of eliminated all of the dumb habits that I do.

 

[Jim Morrison]

No, I actually meant while you're playing you don't look at it in terms of "**** I'm playing what am I gonna do next", but you look at it like a vid where you just think "the guy should just roll out here" or "damn that was so obvious he shouldn't fall for that".
I don't think you'll be making decisions like the top level players, but yeah, that's the thing that I'd find most interesting, how to retain your focus during a game, and I think this is one of those ways. It's been one of my great obstacles, just losing focus and I stop thinking actively about what to do.

 

[AustinRC]

marths aren't going to start placing again regardless. the tactics favored by this gen of players simply aren't good for marth so there's a lack of knowledge that would normally transfer between characters. if we can shift the standard of play toward tight dashdances and a willingness to use the disjointed incrementalism that i mentioned several months ago, marth becomes a substantially better character. as is right now, most people just play every character like it's falco. marth sucks at that style really bad.

Tight dash dances are yet again another tool that he will also need but eventually you are going to need to use a killing move to take a stock. You can tight dash dance around people all day and get hits but you run the risk of going into that horrible threshold where Marth can't kill very well. Take Peepee vs Armada apex grand finals for example PP literally runs circles around Armada but he has to play kind of a hit and reset to neutral game. With pivoting you can get a kill after a stray hit in some instances as well as after grabs. Each tool has it's uses, tight dash dances can help you get hits and grabs where pivots can help you get kills AFTER doing the tight dash dances. Also I may be way off my rocker here but isn't disjointed incrementalism just a fancy word for adapting? Maybe I'm just not understanding correctly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

People will indeed have to work to not be Falco and try to hit them so much. Doesn't mean it can't happen. I'd like to help with this when I can.

Marth should be a lot more focused on threatening the opponent then actually hitting them. Making them FEEL his sword without him swinging it and other such voodoo.

 

[FrootLoop]

AustinRC I understand it has some usage for combo links, but I don't think marth really has a problem there. Definitely beneficial though.

Your non-combo examples are exactly my point. Fsmash is bad because it's basically punishable on reaction and you can't react with it, making it count as a huge commit. You're plan is to guess their options from a bad situation (shield/ledge) and punish with fsmash. This is worse than just punishing their choice on reaction. Not only are you giving them outs, you're giving them choices that transition them from a losing disadvantage to a winning advantage.

Also, the only real benefit is killing earlier to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. Damage doesn't matter. I figured Apex grand finals would have emphasized this not the other way around =/

 

[MT_]

Pivot stop out of dash dance is gonna be the next big thing guys. Think about it.

 

[Beat!]

Well, pivot stop means pivot dtilt by extension so count me in.

 

[Kadano]

Also I may be way off my rocker here but isn't disjointed incrementalism just a fancy word for adapting?

After reading that old post 10 times, this is my impression as well. Though I feel he put a strong emphasis on discerning between and quickly recognizing micro-situations that isn’t usually associated with adapting, which is more about quickly dealing with new playstyles. Disjointed incrementalism would make that obsolete if I’m interpreting it correctly.

 

[MT_]

Well, pivot stop means pivot dtilt by extension so count me in.

Essentially what I was getting at =D

 

[Deleted member]

After reading that old post 10 times, this is my impression as well. Though I feel he put a strong emphasis on discerning between and quickly recognizing micro-situations that isn’t usually associated with adapting, which is more about quickly dealing with new playstyles. Disjointed incrementalism would make that obsolete if I’m interpreting it correctly.

This is mostly an exercise of interpretation. Rather than label it something to make the idea more confusing than it needs to be, i'll just try to differentiate them as I see them. Disjointed Incrementalism as I've described it is a way to convey the idea of a specific method of adaption. So yes, the short version is that it is adaption, but that's somewhat of an unfair blanket statement and misses the point. Adaption in this game is almost universally taken with regards to the opponent. The idea of incrementalism is to adapt to each micro interaction for a larger result.

So let's take a macro-scale interaction as an example. Suppose for whatever reason, an opposing Sheik is trying to beat your dashdancing with aerial needles. You can say "Ok, if I change my dashdance spacing and loosen my dash range, my character will not be at a 45 degree angle under and next to Sheik while she is airborne. That way, I can still dashdance while negating the effectiveness of those needles." In this situation, both Sheik and your Marth are adapting to each other in a general way. You are both attempting to formulate a strategy to negate the ability of the other to interact with the other player. This strategy is a general one with flexibility built into it based on the player's experience and judgment.

The idea of incrementalism is to take each interaction as its own case study. For example, you are Marth on Yoshi Story and you upthrow Fox and he lands on a side platform. From this point you acknowledge that Fox has several options, so in that moment you decide reasonably that it would be best to cover as many options as you can. You adapt to this situation by wavedashing under the middle of the platform while facing in toward the middle of the stage. From this point, no matter where fox goes, you can uptilt and he is in a bad position- no combination of tech options and DI on the following uptilt will remove him from a poor stage position.

The difference lies in the marginal gains over the course of the match. Rather than strategically handling a handful of larger interaction methods over the course of the match with a known decision tree (which is what the flowchart essentially is), you're making the point to optimize each individual interaction for the best possible outcome. This change alters how you approach complex situations that require finesse and experience to increase your marginal advantage over the duration of a match.

So do you want to always throw the opponent off the stage at the edge? If you're a lower level player, you can say yes this is a good idea. Given your known choices and expected outcomes as limited by your experience, to always throw the opponent off the stage is your "best option" and you should be playing to your ideal. From this point, you can collapse your experiences and turn them into a theory from which other players can learn from you to save time in their learning process as well. However, once you approach high levels of play, only the truly degenerate tactics remain absolute and the rest becomes more malleable in their presentation for the optimal outcome. So following this example, at my level of play, it's best if Tai always forward throws me off the stage in the Marth mirror. Given his experience and knowledge about the game and the known fact that I'm terrible, this is his best option every time. Should he forward throw mew2king off the stage every time? Probably not, and you could make a reasonable argument for upthrow instead given the situation. Tai's marginal gain vs mew2king (and as a player really) increases as he is willing to adjust to the situation rather than holding to the same flowchart that we usually play by.

This is definitely some kind of adaptation, although it is not the same as the "adaptation" we typically refer to when smashers talk about how they play. I think it would be inaccurate to consider them the same idea for that reason. Because Marth is so incredibly focused on stage control over damage and how little the damage actually matters for this character, we should definitely encourage Marth players to play to the character's relative strength by encouraging play that adapts to each interaction with respect to stage control. I can't think of a better way to elaborate this into English, so by all means everyone is welcome to probe me further if it helps me explain where i'm coming from.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So you define adaptation as a means to handle something in neutral(a broad strategy) and incrementalism is the way to handle specific scenarios as long as you retain past ideas and possible outcomes in mind?

Seems to fall in line with how I (want to) play so I'm all for it.

I think a way to apply this theory so it makes more sense to others is to say that Marth players should be looking not for hits exactly but to make the opponent feel the hits without swinging. For example, standing outside the range of someone shielding but you still have ways to hit them is a powerful way to make your sword known and control your opponent. If you have been poking with Dtilt and then run/WD in and don't do it, then you have likely made someone FEEL a Dtilt without doing one and you get a free observation on their response since they expect an attack and have to deal with it normally. The idea is to make someone feel that big range, and you need to swing your sword to do it, but knowing just how to make your opponent fear your sword and then how to make them fear whatever you do after the (not) sword are more important.

Because then grabs.

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much. for the last 4-5 years the common mentality is that approaching sucks because it's implicitly assumes that the approaching character will extend into the opponent which is the worst thing you can do. modern play has evolved to where over-extension is universally understood to be a bad thing, so the new ideal play is to eliminate options without extending into the opponent. eliminating options requires aggressive movement by nature, so "approaching" went from the worst thing you do can to the best thing you can do. the new implicit assumption is that you won't over-extend into your opponent.

marth should be played very aggressively, with little/no sword usage from neutral. if you absolutely must swing from neutral, stick to dtilt only. get into the opponent's comfort zone, force a reaction or establish stage control, and React and Deny™ from there.

 

[Dr Peepee]

approaching is simply moving towards them with intent but without going all in under that definition. I agree with it and it was something I was attempting to explain before. of course this does make me feel worried for the definition of approaching getting kind of diluted if we also include aggressive movements in it but I guess that's not too big of a deal as long as people understand that approaching intelligently is okay?

 

[Deleted member]

merging the ideas of offensive and defensive play is hard though, it seems like people naturally place specific behaviors into each category. good play requires that all actions have some elements of both. it almost goes back to that argument that players should discard notions of style. i don't want to get into a circular argument though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Style will result from people seeing those actions differently, but the general idea does kind of keep people from noting some individual decisions perhaps.

Agreed on everything else in full.

 

[Purpletuce]

In my experience, it is a risk trying to move in without an attack, because a good amount of people at my level play really aggressive/flashy, so I think it benefits me more to expect them to overcommitt and then for me to punish them accordingly. Whenever I push somebody back, or get them to take a defensive stance, it is a rare thing, because usually they are going on the offensive, and me approaching without an attack just puts me more at risk.

 

[BTmoney]

Mow what's your MU spread for Marth look like, be very general

edit:

Mostly because I don't think any character other than Falco can match up with and best the style you describe. maybe the gayest of all gay foxes but no one plays like that

also someone help me do this, I'm begging you. 3:21
http://youtu.be/tJk2YTuEVRY?t=3m21s

I was working on something and basically I want to do that sticky walk at 3:21. How do you do that (is that a moon walk) and how to stay in place while maintaing backwards momentum?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth is perfectly geared to be incremental. I do it with my dash dance all the time. Eventually, I'd learn to incorporate sword swings in there as well.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think he went toward the ledge with a wavedash, moonwalked toward the ledge, stickwalked(quick smash away, then hold) away from the ledge, then wavedashed to grab the ledge.

 

[BTmoney]

I think he went toward the ledge with a wavedash, moonwalked toward the ledge, stickwalked(quick smash away, then hold) away from the ledge, then wavedashed to grab the ledge.

I really just meant the "sticky walk" part, not the entire sequence but to sticky walk you moonwalk (which is fine/easy) then smash away from the direction you are facing then hold it?

edit:
this @ 44 seconds. but go ahead and watch everything up until that point because it's good for your health
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek2wrQsY8fs
when someone is on the ledge you can bait out a reaction to punish (akin to noncommittal dash dancing in general), while spacing outside of everything thing they can hit you with you also maintain stage control. it looks cool and it's probably half decent. I do that with fox but not nearly as good

 

[Construct]

PP over in your falco thread you were talking about how you were over-DDing in your set against Wobbles. I'm pretty sure I do that all the time and I'd guess that it's one of the reasons why I'm so dissatisfied with my neutral game. Can you give any advice on how to weed this out of my gameplay?

 

[Purpletuce]

I think the more momentum you have opposing the stickywalk, the "stickier" you are. I also think you can slow it down by not having the joystick out as far as it could be, maybe try placing it down-diagonal? That is how you can slow your run in a regular situation. (The other context I've heard the term stick walk in)

 

[Blood Falcon11]

When a Falco/Fox is shine pressuring you, is a wavedash oos to f-smash a viable option? Also, what's the best way to practice teching off of a spike? The motion sensor bombs react earlier than a spike from Falcon or Falco.

 

[Purpletuce]

How to react to shield pressure is really dependent on who you're playing against. Most players can't do it well enough that you need to fear it.

Against players who aren't good enough to understand why they're pressuring you're shield, usually you can find a pattern in their pressure, and shield grab when appropriate(after early aerials, or or before late aerials). Sometimes they might also have technical flubs, giving you easy punishes.

Some players also aren't prepared for you to roll. They might get side tracked onto keeping their frames tight, that they aren't prepared to react to a roll, and will give you a free reset to neutral/stage control/an occasional punish.

If you can WD OOS, you can usually shield grab. (With Marth, your jumpsquat takes 6 frames iirc, so a perfect WD won't even get you moving away until frame 7, which is the frame you grab on iirc)

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP over in your falco thread you were talking about how you were over-DDing in your set against Wobbles. I'm pretty sure I do that all the time and I'd guess that it's one of the reasons why I'm so dissatisfied with my neutral game. Can you give any advice on how to weed this out of my gameplay?

Aim to have a goal in each input with your control stick. Toward is pressure, and away is baiting them. This is why you see Mango do the slow dash in before he starts going fast because people feel pressured by the long dash in.

Once you have a goal with each input, get a decision in mind to come out of your movement rather quickly. Simple mixups are best but not always perfect options. Stick to them for now and it'll be super helpful. Dtilt out of a dash out then in is nice but it's predictable if you always do that UNLESS you did a dash out then in then out WD in Dtilt or something before that lol. See the point? The idea is to keep a simple mixup game going so you don't make your plan obvious.

When a Falco/Fox is shine pressuring you, is a wavedash oos to f-smash a viable option? Also, what's the best way to practice teching off of a spike? The motion sensor bombs react earlier than a spike from Falcon or Falco.

It depends on their type of pressure and how stale their moves are. If you're by the edge, you're probably better off lightshielding and getting pushed to the edge. If you're not, then shield DI away and attempt to WD OOS(into Fsmash sometimes if you really want to I guess) or roll. Spacies can't stay on your shield forever so shield DI'ing can help you get away and look for situations where you can counterattack/reset the situation.

 

[BTmoney]

Against players who aren't good enough to understand why they're pressuring you're shield, usually you can find a pattern in their pressure, and shield grab when appropriate(after early aerials, or or before late aerials). Sometimes they might also have technical flubs, giving you easy punishes.

this, lmfao. that's so deliciously condescending and true