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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
If you're going to sideB away from the stage, why not DJ bair and get the edge again?

I remember a Brawl Marth player would do it a lot. I'm not sure whether you need to upB or not in Melee for it to work actually. Either way though, if you do connect with the bair, you're fine even if you upB afterwards.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
You can do side-B, bair regrab if you still have your initial side-B, but Marth often needs that to recover in the first place. You could reverse ledgedash to get your side-B boost back though. I also think ledge drop side-B regrab could be useful. In my head, I think you could get full invinc from it, but of course you can only do it once for the same reason as above.
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
If you've used a side b already while recovering you can hop off the ledge and side b pretty quickly. It will drop you onto the stage and you get a pretty wonky side b out of it. May want to look into it? I use it from time to time.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I saw Ether using LH DB recently, but if your opponent decides to hold down you're ****ed, and if they're not on the ground, I'd rather uair anyway.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
Finish up your little write-up on the topic. Publish it, then prepare to be ravaged by critics or be praised by people. Those are the only two options here on smashboards.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
I learnt how to play Marth and pretty much smash in general over on project M. Now, playing melee I noticed something here that is not in PM. It seems in this game using the same over more then once in a row will lower it's damage. How long does it take for the move to refresh, does it affect knockback? How important is this to keep in mind during a match?
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
The reduction in damage leads to a reduction in knockback, because the damage a move does is a factor in the knockback calculation; but there isn't any extra "punishment" for the move to be stale.
The move doesn't refresh over time. How stale a move is, is based on how often it has been used recently. (There's a que of 9 positions, each reduces by 1 to 9 percent, in reverse order. So if you again hit your opponent with the move you did last time, it'll do only 91% of its original damage. And if the move before the one before of that was the same as well it'd be 84% (100 - (9 + 7))
Another way to reset this is dying (though that's probably not a good thing to do ever :D).

It's something that's definitely worth keeping in mind (e.g. you have to expect some moves to kill quite a bit later than what would be the usual percent if they have been used much recently).
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
Can it ever mess with combos or allow special combos because a move in stale and will have less knockback and thus a follow up hit?
edit: I guess it is really not a big deal considering I never heard tell of this ever mentioned about the game on commentary or on forums. I wonder why Project M changed it in the first place.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
Just weird to know my moves will no longer do max damage all the time. Gotta pay extra close attention to the precent I suppose.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,345
It's not worth keeping in mind at all. Knowing the mechanics of it is purely academic
It might be useful for knowing in one situation. When a character gets knocked over, if they are hit by a low percentage attack they get sent into the air with the knockback, but they are not in any stun at all. Shiek's moves like jab or ftilt will do that a lot. Occasionally, you see it from Falco's shine do this if it has been used a lot. But, even then its so infrequent really no need to worry about it.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Staling is pretty important for platform combos. If they miss their tech, a utilt or uair that's been staled several times will cause them to float away. You should see how many utilts/uairs you can hit before it stops sending each character into tumble so you know to switch to another move.

How, if at all, does staling affect throws? That seems like another common situation for Marth where staling could affect what works.
 

MT_

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
791
Location
Austin, TX
I don't think staling is that important to keep in mind for Marth, but there are specific situations where it'd be a good idea to recognize when a move is staled or not. For example, Falcon's dair will knock spacies over at 0% if it's fresh, but if it's even a little bit staled then it won't cause them to fall over (they'll get stuck into the ground kind of like Falco's dair at low percents).

Another scenario where being aware of staling might be important is for Marth's chaingrabbing vs Falco (the one on Fox is pretty easy). If you know your uthrow is staled and the opponent has just respawned and you get a grab on them at 0%, then you'll probably want to f-throw first because the lower damage on your uthrow will make it very difficult if not impossible to get a regrab, even on no DI (DI behind I think is impossible even with a fresh uthrow).

In any case, all of this info is VERY specific and it's probably better to be focusing on other stuff, especially if you're just now coming into melee from P:M. For the most part, FrootLoop is correct that it's not something you need to pay attention to, but there are specific cases where it's important.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
My avatar is just some picture from American Psycho, that I put up right after watching the movie and never bothered to change it after that. I guess it's sticking around for a while longer lol.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
My avatar is just some picture from American Psycho, that I put up right after watching the movie and never bothered to change it after that. I guess it's sticking around for a while longer lol.

lol That's a creative one, but I think the ketchup or even tomato juice is more likely. If anyone knows for sure lmk.
 

Rarik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
206
Location
Boston
I could be wrong but I thought in Project M they do. I could be a precent fraud.
Total percent fraud, staling exists in Project M. I can't personally confirm that it works the same as in Melee, but there's a pretty good chance it does.
 

Devil Ray

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
1,107
Location
Seoul, South Korea
guys, any tips on how to play as marth in a high percent/close match/tight battle match with other high tiers?
At 90% and above, marth's lack of killing power just irks me to no end. I feel so much more comfortable taking out characters at low % at marth.
 

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
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1,806
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Columbus OH / Chicago (Plainfield) IL

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
guys, any tips on how to play as marth in a high percent/close match/tight battle match with other high tiers?
At 90% and above, marth's lack of killing power just irks me to no end. I feel so much more comfortable taking out characters at low % at marth.

Don't worry too much about forcing the kill out. Just play with safe spacing and wait for the right opportunity. Less experienced players will almost always get impatient and throw out a bad attack, and that's your chance to strike with a quick up-B, utilt (floaties), or anything to push them off into an edgeguard (dtilt/ftilt). It may seem bad to keep grabbing shield-heavy opponents at 100%+ and not getting a kill from it, but as long as you maintain control then those opportunities are more and more likely to present themselves, and realize that as long as you're tossing them around they aren't hitting you. Fsmash is where most Marths go wrong. I personally try to never use it if they are on the ground out of lag because it means there's a chance they could shield or dodge it and I get punished. Look for fsmash openings whenever they leave the ground or out of any knockdown situation that comes up. Marth can get a lot of free stock-ending fsmashes just positioning properly after a throw. If they're even remotely close to the ledge, a throw on characters that get knocked down usually means you can stand still and cover all of their options with an fsmash in either direction (though you should try to make punishes in these situations as optimal as possible).

Most importantly, try to avoid racking your opponent up to high %s in the first place. Now obviously it will eventually happen, and in some matchups it probably isn't even that avoidable (Peach, Samus, Sheik), but if you focus on low percent gimps, edgeguards, and DI traps, you can greatly reduce the number of times you have to deal with high % situations. Make sure you aren't going for extra combo damage when you could have opted to knock them off stage and edgeguard. I see a lot of Marths try to juggle spacies all day, but if you watch M2K he almost always makes sure he ends strings with nair to knock them off stage. Even if they don't really go off stage, just knocking them near the ledge limits their options so you can get another first hit more easily than if you had uaired them onto a plat where they escape and can work their way down at their own pace.

I think Marth's DI traps are particularly underutilized. There are a lot of situations where the opponent basically has to guess what you will do. If you are chaining fairs in a Marth ditto and they're trying to DI down and away to get out, try up-Bing instead of fairing. Most people try this but they want to do as many fairs as possible which basically defeats the purpose because their opponent can tell it was the last fair and they start DIing up and in. Do it while they're still DIing away. Worst case scenario, they guess right, have decent enough DI to recover, and now the next time you touch them they won't be at an unworkable percent. If they had started at 20% and gone up to 50%, well you can still get some throw combos at 50%. If you had just comboed them with fairs until 90% and they recover to a plat behind you or get to the ledge, suddenly you are stuck in that mode where you can't do anything off of grabs.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
Faster and has more range. Dash grab is only useful vs jiggs because she can't duck it. Still gotta be real careful with them.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
I think I've heard that if you are dashing towards your opponent and want to grab him, it's actually faster to use dash grab, because you slide far enough to be able to start it earlier enough to actually beat JC grab in terms of speed.
So it's actually pretty good in tech chases (if he gets out a buffered spotdodge he's punishing you no matter what grab you use and stuff ;) ).

Also: It's good whenever you figure that the extra reach might outweigh speed / less ending lag :D
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
One thing I never see people point out is that dash grab reaches further off of edges. So if you're CGing someone on a plat and they DI away, even if you can't reach them with a JC grab, you might still be able to reach them with a dash grab.

I'm curious if boost grab is optimal. I brought it up a while back, but someone said dash grabbing is always slower. I took their word for it, but then Kadano (I believe) brought up the fact that dash grab is actually 1 frame faster so obviously the other person didn't know WTF they were talking about.
 

Devil Ray

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
1,107
Location
Seoul, South Korea
marth's combos and DI traps are great, bones is right about that. but back to high percent battles:
you can't really approach with marth, but the other high tiers can. that's the biggest problem i feel. Sheik get get a grab->slap, fox and falco have broken approaches, and jiggs' bair is stronger than any of marth's aerials for knockback. i still feel like i'm gambling to be honest. with tipper aerials had waaaaaaaaaaay more knockback.
 
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