Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

marth's combos and DI traps are great, bones is right about that. but back to high percent battles:
you can't really approach with marth, but the other high tiers can. that's the biggest problem i feel. Sheik get get a grab->slap, fox and falco have broken approaches, and jiggs' bair is stronger than any of marth's aerials for knockback. i still feel like i'm gambling to be honest. with tipper aerials had waaaaaaaaaaay more knockback.

Regarding approaching in a bit more of a general sense... I'm gonna level with you, I'm not really sure what constitutes approaching at this point in the game's development and I don't really care either. It's always seemed like a big, vague, poorly-defined umbrella term that has been modified within each region to some degree, which results in delicious lapses in clarity in these discussions. As a side note, it was also adopted by WC and therefore is now part of the Gamma Fraternity.

 

[Kadano]

Why would one choose to go with a jump-cancelled grab over a dash grab?

1. Because he wants to bring out his grab hitbox 2 frames earlier (this is important especially during low % chaingrabs)
2. Because it has 10 frames less ending lag

Faster and has more range. Dash grab is only useful vs jiggs because she can't duck it. Still gotta be real careful with them.

Faster to come out, yes. Faster to grab an opponent standing at a certain point away from you? No. More range? No, except if you care about the slightly higher leap hitbox you can see in this pic:

I'm curious if boost grab is optimal. I brought it up a while back, but someone said dash grabbing is always slower. I took their word for it, but then Kadano (I believe) brought up the fact that dash grab is actually 1 frame faster so obviously the other person didn't know WTF they were talking about.

Boost grab is not useful for Marth. Here is an explanation:
Boost grabbing means canceling your dashattack during its first 3 frames. This will only improve the grabs range if the character moves faster during these 3 frames than during his dash / run. Now Marth’s dash and run speeds seem to be the same (10px at the zoom factor I used for the fixed camera position screenshots), so it does not matter if you did the boost grab from a dash or a run.
So what we need to find out is whether the total Δx of the first 3 dashattack frames exceeds 30.
Frame 1 has only 4px of horizontal shift (Δx), frame 2 has 11px and frame 2 15px. 4+11+15=30—just as much as dashing or running for three frames.
Thus, boost grab only requires you to commit earlier and be more precise, but there is no true benefit.

Edit: Also, to say that dash grab is better suited for reaching up to opponents is a bit of an overstatement. Given you want to bring out a grab hitbox at exactly 20 frames as far out as possible, dash grab wins over JC grab, but the difference is so slim it won’t hit earlier for even 1 frame in the majority of cases. Only if your opponent is standing at a spot where JC grab will just miss him on a certain frame, dash grab will hit him on that frame.
So after all, for techchasing you can do whatever you feel more comfortable with. If you screw up your JC grabs every time, better just dash grab instead. Learning JC grab is not that important as nowadays even whiffed standing grabs will get punished, like Xyzz pointed out.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yer a wizard, Kadano.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MT_]

Just lost to a Bowser, someone teach me the matchup

 

[Dr Peepee]

You don't really need to grab bad characters because you can just zone outside their shield and they're screwed. If you tried to grab, then lol.

Ban YS. If you can't ban it, then just trick him when he's on the edge or don't push him there.

Do moves at him when he's offstage and he dies.

....yeah, this is pretty much just don't get impatient and make him deal with your disjoint

 

[Kadano]

Don’t approach, play defensively / evasively, know the spot where their ledgeattack will whiff and you can punish them with tipper fsmash.

 

[MT_]

Yea I was definitely playing a little too aggressively. DJNintendo has a HUGE bag of tricks and it worked on me . Didn't know how to edge guard either, will try going out there more if I ever play a Bowser ever again... Thanks!

 

[Bones0]

I would ignore that dude who lost to Gimpyfish in a teams 1v1.

Bowser is just a Samus with an aerial grab and broken ledge attack under 100%.

 

[Construct]

Kadano, I had a question about boost grabbing. Say you do a WD back->forward moving JC grab. You pretty much grab in place. However, if you do a WD back->boost grab you shoot forward. Why is this?

 

[Bones0]

Kadano, I had a question about boost grabbing. Say you do a WD back->forward moving JC grab. You pretty much grab in place. However, if you do a WD back->boost grab you shoot forward. Why is this?

Boost grabs have more forward momentum than JC grabs.

 

[Deleted member]

Just lost to a Bowser, someone teach me the matchup

hunt him down aggressively with your ground game with dashdancing, dtilt, and grabs. when he reacts, grab whatever he does. convert that grab into position and hold position until KO.

notice that none of this advice is character specific. there's a reason for that.

 

[JustinSane]

Best way to approach a campy laser happy fox who wants to stay away from you ?
I would figure out camping them and forcing the approach, but isn't it best to keep your spacing to the point where you threaten them if they make a wrong move?

 

[Ziodyne]

Question

Best way to approach a campy laser happy fox who wants to stay away from you ?
I would figure out camping them and forcing the approach, but isn't it best to keep your spacing to the point where you threaten them if they make a wrong move?

Answer

hunt him down aggressively with your ground game with dashdancing, dtilt, and grabs. when he reacts, grab whatever he does. convert that grab into position and hold position until KO.

notice that none of this advice is character specific. there's a reason for that.

pr0blem solved

 

[Kadano]

Kadano, I had a question about boost grabbing. Say you do a WD back->forward moving JC grab. You pretty much grab in place. However, if you do a WD back->boost grab you shoot forward. Why is this?

Dash attack negates previous sliding whereas dash, jump and standing grab keep it. To be more precise, as soon as you start your dash attack, your Δx will always go from 4 to 11 to 15 px on the first 3 frames regardless of previous momentum. Dash and run on the other hand don’t have absolute Δx values but rather maximum values that can be impaired by previous Δx. Dashing from a 343° wavedash in the opposite direction will keep your Δx at a constant 6 px, considerably less than the usual 10 px. There is no running speed refresh, so you won’t reach the 10 px speed even if you keep running forever.

Interesting point you brought up. WD back to boost grab might be useful for things like grabbing a retreating Puff bair. (This made me wonder what Marth can actually do against that … will write about it in Turning the Tides soon)

Best way to approach a campy laser happy fox who wants to stay away from you ?
I would figure out camping them and forcing the approach, but isn't it best to keep your spacing to the point where you threaten them if they make a wrong move?

While this is only a friendly match, Armada demonstrates perfect spacing and recognizing punish opportunities in it.

At 0:14, he walked forward slightly so Fox got in his punish range. Fox shld like he expected. Armada recognized his jump within ~6 frames (could be 5 or 8 too, I can’t tell with 30 fps deinterlaced video) which allowed him to get the dash attack in just before leffen could crouch. Maybe it wasn’t reaction but prediction, but as those frames might be just enough for the human mind to react on, I guess Armada simply has perfect reaction times. (The sources I’ve read so far define 130 ms—about 8 frames—as the best of their selection group, but I’ve found nothing about world record times so far. If any of you have, please let me know!)
Not to mention he went on to invent the most beautiful Marth combo I have ever seen … sigh.

 

[Dr Peepee]

He was definitely waiting for it lol but it sharply tuned his reaction time towards seeing the SH.

 

[BTmoney]

That first combo lmfao. I'm inclined to believe my reaction time is 140-160ms when I'm warmed up and closer to 170 when I'm not. There was a game (a Kirby mini-game) on gameboy advance I'd always play where it was almost like a cowboy/quickdraw sort of thing. Metaknight would always (or usually) strike at 140ms. Needless to say that's hard to beat consistently. But between possible inherent inaccuracy and the latency of me pushing a button on my laptop and the ROM reading it (I don't know if you have any input, offline latency when you move your mouse or push a key. I imagine that you would), I think those are good ballpark estimates. If anything those times are too slow.

If anyone wants to try it, it's a Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland (original) ROM, if you play it for like 15 minutes (it's a fun game LOL) you'll get to it.

Here's a cool picture regarding reaction time.
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

There should be normal distributions for everything :]

 

[_wzrd]

armada is excellent at SDI'ing up air
like - holy crap LOL

 

[Construct]

Dash attack negates previous sliding whereas dash, jump and standing grab keep it. To be more precise, as soon as you start your dash attack, your Δx will always go from 4 to 11 to 15 px on the first 3 frames regardless of previous momentum. Dash and run on the other hand don’t have absolute Δx values but rather maximum values that can be impaired by previous Δx. Dashing from a 343° wavedash in the opposite direction will keep your Δx at a constant 6 px, considerably less than the usual 10 px. There is no running speed refresh, so you won’t reach the 10 px speed even if you keep running forever.

Interesting point you brought up. WD back to boost grab might be useful for things like grabbing a retreating Puff bair. (This made me wonder what Marth can actually do against that … will write about it in Turning the Tides soon)

Cool, thanks for the info and glad to give you an idea

 

[Jim Morrison]

At 0:14, he walked forward slightly so Fox got in his punish range. Fox shld like he expected. Armada recognized his jump within ~6 frames (could be 5 or 8 too, I can’t tell with 30 fps deinterlaced video) which allowed him to get the dash attack in just before leffen could crouch. Maybe it wasn’t reaction but prediction, but as those frames might be just enough for the human mind to react on, I guess Armada simply has perfect reaction times. (The sources I’ve read so far define 130 ms—about 8 frames—as the best of their selection group, but I’ve found nothing about world record times so far. If any of you have, please let me know!)
Not to mention he went on to invent the most beautiful Marth combo I have ever seen … sigh.

I think Armada mostly reacted to Leffen's shield, after which he did his SHDL, which makes his reaction time slightly more appropriate, because 6 to 8 frames of reaction is a bit outrageous.

 

[Kadano]

Why would he go for a dash attack vs shield though?

 

[MT_]

Kadano, do you think you could test something for me? I would do my own testing but I don't have access to Melee right now. It's about Falcon's jab->grab on Marth (and floaties in general I guess). I'm fairly sure that it isn't a true combo, but it seems fast enough that none of Marth's attacks can hit Falcon before the grab. I wanted to know if it's possible to airdodge reactively (especially if you're expecting it) after the jab to avoid the grab, perhaps to a waveland or simply just airdodging away. I suspect that it will be dependent on what percent Marth is at seeing how the hitstun of the jab should scale to some degree with percentage; I've been a continuous victim to jab->grab from Falcon though and was wondering if there was anything I could do after I get hit by jab.

 

[Kadano]

With the jab hitting directly or your shield? If directly, what % ranges? Only the first hit or all three (gentleman)?

 

[MT_]

Directly, and first hit only. Also maybe testing for being jabbed off the ground, though I'm not sure if that makes any difference. Assuming no CC of course.

By "off the ground" I mean after being hit onto the ground. I get dair'ed to jabbed a lot off missed techs, if that makes any sense. Or I think I do. I need to rewatch my MM with Hax to see exactly what setups he makes for jab in positions that aren't CCable lol.

As for percent ranges, everyone from 0 to where Marth gets popped up high enough to simply lead into an aerial I guess. I would say from about 0 to 100ish I think, but not sure. Sorry I can't be more specific lol.

 

[Kadano]

I wanted to know if it's possible to airdodge reactively (especially if you're expecting it) after the jab to avoid the grab, perhaps to a waveland or simply just airdodging away.

Assuming jab hits on the first frame it comes out (3) and Marth does not DI, Marth is in hitstun for 13 frames (hitlag not counted). Afterwards, he will stay airborne for another 5 frames. Captain Falcon’s jab ends on frame 21, so you have 1 grounded frame before he can start his grab. (And another 7 frames until its hitbox comes out)
Airdodging/wavelanding is an option, ↑B as well.

I suspect that it will be dependent on what percent Marth is at seeing how the hitstun of the jab should scale to some degree with percentage

No. First jab has wbk and doesn’t scale with damage at all.

 

[MT_]

Does the jab end 21 frames after the hitbox comes out or 21 frames after the move begins? I feel like there is less time than that, because I would have 8 frames in addition to however long it takes
For Falcon to get his standing grab out (guessing like 7 frames) to react.

I'm going to rewatch some matches to see if I'm just being bad at the game lol.

 

[Divinokage]

You can also SDI down and away the jab to force Falcon to have to move for a follow up. If you did it right, it should look like you teleported sort of. lol.

 

[MT_]

Does it make a difference if Marth is already airborne when hit by the jab? I am rewatching and see that I escaped from grab when I got jabbed while grounded, but here are some jabs that hit while airborne and it seems like there's a very small frame with which I have to escape the grab if at all.

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/420161423?t=2h19m15s
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/420161423?t=2h29m40s


... well now that I keep watching, this one seems to be a grounded jab and I still got grabbed really quickly. Maybe I jumped right before I got hit by the jab? Argh.

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/420161423?t=2h29m50s

It's possible that the way I'm thinking about the frame data intellectually and the way I feel it should translate into realtime is just off, but with what you said shouldn't I have a little bit longer to act between jab and grab? Not sure. >_> Maybe I can actually airdodge between all these jabs and grabs?


@Kage, yeah I should try that. The thing is, most of the jabs I get hit by are slightly unexpected and I am not ready to SDI, but I was thinking I might be able to react to getting hit by the jab fast enough to squeeze out an airdodge or something like that.

 

[Kadano]

Does the jab end 21 frames after the hitbox comes out or 21 frames after the move begins?

After the move begins. I made some mistakes, now my post should be correct.

Does it make a difference if Marth is already airborne when hit by the jab?

In general, not really, but moves like nair can hit if you’ve been high enough before hit. Fair will connect anyway so that should be a good choice. You have 16 frames to react, which is well enough.

shouldn't I have a little bit longer to act between jab and grab? Not sure. >_>

Nah, sorry, that was just a mistake I made because I forgot to count the 2 frames of startup on CF’s jab. It’s corrected now. Still, it’s long enough to act, just not as long as the previous version of my post suggested.

Maybe I can actually airdodge between all these jabs and grabs?

You definitely can, but it’s a 6 frame window so it requires a bit of precision.

@Kage, yeah I should try that. The thing is, most of the jabs I get hit by are slightly unexpected and I am not ready to SDI, but I was thinking I might be able to react to getting hit by the jab fast enough to squeeze out an airdodge or something like that.

SDI on the jab requires a reaction time of less than 5 frames, which is as far as I know impossible.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya but you can predict it based on the range in between you and Falcon. It's possible, my friend. SDIs are far from 100% reactions. When Falcon is running around, he isnt gonna jab, he's only gonna jab when he gets in. If Falcon Knees your shield for example then it's a possibility he'll either grab/jab or do another aerial, you have to understand the habits of your opponent, there isnt that many options that can come out from close range that are safe for Falcon. He can run and jab too but other than that.. that's all he has.

 

[MT_]

K, so I can fair between jab grab. Good. I think Hax also likes to jab to pivot grab which might get around fair since he runs behind me, but air dodge would get away from
Both standing grab and pivot grab. Thanks once again Kadano!

 

[Dr Peepee]

so

who wants to talk about peach? =)

 

[Kadano]

Ya but you can predict it based on the range in between you and Falcon. It's possible, my friend.

I didn’t intend to imply that it was not possible at all to SDI it, just not by solely reacting to the jab itself. Sorry if that came off wrong.

If Falcon Knees your shield for example then it's a possibility he'll either grab/jab or do another aerial, you have to understand the habits of your opponent, there isnt that many options that can come out from close range that are safe for Falcon. He can run and jab too but other than that.. that's all he has.

It’s an interesting situation. I found Marth’s best tools against knee on shield → jab are shield grab (2 frame window after jab 1 if CF does the second jab asap) and getting hit → fair while against grab Marth can ↑B and roll/sidestep. (The latter will also escape jab but Falcon can still grab you on reaction)

K, so I can fair between jab grab. Good. I think Hax also likes to jab to pivot grab which might get around fair since he runs behind me

It doesn’t. Not even if you SDI away from him and he starts dashing asap. =)

who wants to talk about peach? =)

Sure!
Do you have a certain mantra you play after? For example “keep a spacing of exactly 3 tipper lengths away from her, expect turnip pulls and punish them with JC grab, expect dash attacks and react to them with dash away bair”?

 

[BTmoney]

so

who wants to talk about peach? =)

edit, nvms :].

But I hope he's in shape.

 

[strawhats]

lmfao wow so...that marth vs peach Rematch.

 

[Dr Peepee]

kadano:

nah I tend to think of things in terms of peach's spacings actually. I have to worry about her dash attack but then still be close enough to handle her turnip pull(float is a strange variable but also doesn't happen much). This means I'll be weaving around a range slightly longer than a tipper usually. I aim to push stage position and get easy juggles. All while staying calm and remembering that the floaty is panicking since they aren't used to getting consecutively hit. Calm=especially good vs floaties.

 

[Deleted member]

so

who wants to talk about peach? =)

you already know this match.

you don't need advice.

don't punt.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Helps keep my mind in it sir.

and I may end up learning something new in the process, however minor.

Thanks for the confidence boost though =)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I am still not sure how to deal with turnips once thrown.

-If you shield and it hits, then the turnip is still active and you can still run into the turnip if you try to SH forward and Fair. Wavedash back OoS is just going to lose you ground.
-Grabbing them is bad because Marth's throw is pretty horrid and he cannot do anything once he wasted time grabbing them.
-Attacking them is always bad. I think the lag (rebound animation) you go through is always proportional to the moves hitlag. But, certain moves will outprioritize them like Fsmash.
-Hitting the turnip with Fair will actually not get rid of it and you can still hit yourself on the turnip during ending lag of Fair.

And its bad that you would have to try getting around them with movement because you have to lose a ton of ground to completely avoid it by moving.

I guess the only thing is go for powershield.

 

[Construct]

I'd love to talk about Peach (and by talk about I mean lurk around and glean as much information from better players' posts as I can)
It's probably my relatively worst matchup in the top eight

 

[Beat!]

Ooh, Peach discussion? Count me in. I've played a lot with Hack in the past couple of weeks and I'm starting to get a really good grip on the matchup.

@Eryx
Yeah, turnips can be a pain to deal with. Powershielding is indeed a valid option. Still, the best way to deal with them is to not let her pick them up uncontested in the first place.


Gonna ramble a bit:

I view the Peach matchup a bit like playing golf in the sense that you can never afford to lose your patience. Frustration will spell the end of your stocks. Don't throw out predictable fsmashes in the neutral game just because you're tired of her living to 180%. Don't start approaching mindlessly with nairs because you've ran out of ideas. Being at a stock disadvantage against a character that excels at trading and survivability is frustrating, but you'll simply have to suck it up and stay focused if you want to have any hopes of turning the match around.

Now, "patience" doesn't mean "no aggression whatsoever". It just means that regardless of whether you're on the offense or defense, you'll be punished badly if you try to force openings that aren't there. Be systematic.

Okay, moving on to more specific stuff. Just like pretty much any other matchup for Marth, you don't want to be the one who jumps first. In this particular matchup, the main reason for that is Peach's dash attack. That annoying-ass move is fast, has more range than it looks like, and has a habit of sneaking under Marth's aerials most of the time. Not to mention the fact that it's a good combo starter, especially against an airborne opponent.
Aside from dash attack, there's also the fact that a grounded Peach at not-high % can CC punish pretty much any aerial that isn't spaced and timed perfectly.

So before you can start using aerials, you generally want to force her into the air. This is mainly done through dtilts and grabs. Dtilts because they have good range while at the same time being fast and very difficult to punish, and grabs because they circumvent Peach's shield, which is extremely good at avoiding pokes.
If you land a dtilt (or several) but Peach decides to stay grounded, just be grateful for the added damage and stage control and keep doing what you're doing. Don't get impatient.
If you land a grab, upthrow should be your go-to option. Yes, fthrow and dthrow can occasionally reward you with some pretty good follow-ups, but most of the time you won't get anything out of them (this is particularly true for fthrow), or at least not anything nearly as good as what you could've gotten if you learned how to juggle properly.
This is not to say that your other throws don't have their areas of usage, but rather that they're not as consistently good in general.


Might add more later. Getting Peach into the air on your conditions is, in my opinion, the first major hurdle to pass and the key to this matchup, so I wanted to focus on that first.

Also, while most of the advice in this post is targeted towards newer players and/or players that struggle with this matchup, I think the bit about patience is a point worth reiterating for everyone.