Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010

[Zeallyx]

80-20?

So fighting Oli is as bad as fighting MK?

MK is 90-10. MK.

 

[†Slader7†]

MK is 90-10. MK.

thats not what the OP said

btw, shouldn't our FK **** the little pikmin?

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falcon Kick would, but if he has even one Pikmin left and you're going to be stuck with cooldown time right in front of Olimar, then that ****'s unacceptable. If you're close enough to Olimar to go past him and offstage so the lag cancels, sure.

 

[Zeallyx]

thats not what the OP said

It is what is should say.

And falcon kick is always a really bad idea against olimar.
As the pikmin slow you down, and you are dependant on his reaction wether you go past him with, or without, hitting him, he gets the damage percentages on you on a silver platter as soon as you push down b.

And, again, as the pikmin influence your falcon kick too, its pretty much impossible to succesfully pull of a wanted falcon kick->ledge cancel.

So just stay of teh down b.

 

[bigbucks]

Mk vs falcon is 80-20

I think olimar is the same, or worse.

 

[lordhelmet]

Yeah nevermind lol

We have absolutely nothing that stops his grab... other than jump

 

[A user name]

MK is 90-10. MK.

Well it's definitely not 20-80, it's either 15-85 or 10-90, I have no clue.

 

[lordhelmet]

Well it's definitely not 20-80, it's either 15-85 or 10-90, I have no clue.

lolno

8-2 at worst, maybe around 7-3 as P3 says.

 

[teluoborg]

How about we discuss the matchup ? Because i still don't have a clue of what to do against Olimar (except "get *****" and "WILLZ COMBOOOOO").

 

[Darky-Sama]

Like I said before, camp. Stay away from him and try to bait something out of him. There isn't much you can punish Olimar for, but if he spams side+B, just abuse your up tilt at a distance. When he's down to a few pikmin left, abuse your speed and try to punish him from the air, where he's least likely to punish you in return at.

There's literally nothing you can do against a good Olimar. He shuts down Falcon almost nearly as bad as Meta Knight does. Except Olimar has legit combos on Falcon that can deal about 60%+.

 

[†Slader7†]

Juggle Oli in the air for Falcon ownage. I prefer to use UThrow against him (if I get the grab at all).
FlubKnee -> uair -> edgehog -> dtaunt

 

[lordhelmet]

Uthrow works, but I still think uthrow has too much KB to really be that useful, they always get away from me. I'm liking fthrow on Olimar.

 

[Purple]

Guys, think about this, if metaknight is to camp falcon, and space his fairs / dair camp falcon. Does Falcon have something he can abuse in his arsenal to get past it? If not, you probably should be looking in the high 10-90. 70-30 is better than you think it is. It's basically saying

"there is something that captain falcon can do to metaknight that is helpful, however is relatively challenging to get through without a just being smarter than your opponent."

90-10 or 85-15 is saying that there is no chance of victory of both players are evenly skilled and understand their character. The only way it's possible is if captain falcon is much smarter than metaknight, and even then, the metaknight has to not be playing their character correctly.

 

[Darky-Sama]

It's almost impossible for Falcon to outspace Meta Knight. Not only does Meta Knight have more priority than Falcon, his attacks come out twice as fast and are almost unpunishable. The best thing Falcon has working for him is his speed. That gives him a 'small' chance at grabbing Meta Knight between his attacks or while he's landing, but even then, Meta Knight could mash the c-stick downward and smash Falcon away. Shield grabbing doesn't work too well either, so Falcon can't rely on shield out of dash -> shield grab. MK can push him away with smashes much too quickly.

Grounded, Meta Knight demolishes Falcon.
Aerials, Meta Knight demolishes Falcon.
Offstage, Meta Knight demolishes Falcon.

The only thing Falcon can have even the slightest hope at outspacing him with is Uair and Utilt. Even then, MK's Dair > Falcon's Uair. It's not unwinnable, but if Meta Knight just abuses downsmash, dair, nair and up+B, Falcon literally can't do anything.

 

[Purple]

It sounds like a oxymoron, you say it's winnable, but if MK abuses all of his options, captain falcon can't do anything.

By that logic, it is infact, not winnable.

I remember when reflex used CF, he beat one of our MKs by just being horribly smart.

Howeve,r the next go around, the MK just abused his camping tools and basic spacing abilities, and ended up not giving reflex a chance of winning at all.

Point being what I said before, Falcon can win when there's an extremely large smarts gap, and if metaknight isn't abusing his spacing.

so yeah, 90:10 sounds good.

 

[A user name]

lolno

8-2 at worst, maybe around 7-3 as P3 says.

I have no issue with 80-20, but 70-30? Sorry for being off topic.

 

[Purple]

we've already (kind of) discussed that captain falcon has nothing he can do to mk. The only good factor is being smarter than your opponent.

 

[Darky-Sama]

It's not "impossible", but if the MK abuses those options and knows how to space and punish, yeah. He has the ability to completely shut Falcon down. The only reason I see Falcon winning in this match-up is if the Meta Knight feels obligated to try and play fair and show off -- or he doesn't know how to play smart in general. I've beaten plenty of Meta Knights with Falcon, but good ones? You'd be better off just putting the controller down and waiting until the next match.

 

[Purple]

Alrighty, so we have a good idea as to how to play the matchup.

Generally speaking, have further insight on the MK player if you're going to play the MK:CF matchup. If you feel you can outsmart him throughout the entire match and he won't camp as an option, then you have as good of a chance as ever to beat MK. However in high-level, this would be a matchup to consider a lose in most cases (until something is found that's considering game breaking in CF's favor).

If you're going to beat MK, you're probably going to have to not approach him, and let him come to you. Choose your hits extremely wisely and only take options that are guaranteed (moves that mk has that has lag, u-air'ing his approaches out of shield).

If you happen to get a grab, d-throw as always is your best option. Read your opponent's playing behavior and punish accordingly (if he stays in the air idle, you can probably pull off another uair, if he attacks immediately, you'd want to wait for the attack to come out before punishing with your own, if he spotdodges punish him in his vulnerable frames.

I would consider banning stages like bf in this matchup, because u-air chains are a *****, and getting caught on a platform above MK is a tough situation to be put in.

I honestly can't recommend any real CP's for falcon v mk, considering metaknight has a way of playing on any stage to his advantage.

90:10 not impossible, but many variables are needed for captain falcon to possibly win.

 

[bigbucks]

If the mk is dair camping, Uair, It beats Mks dair(due to more range)
If hes using Fair, Utilt i think it outranges fair, or comes close to it.

I agree that MK is 80-20, or 75-25

 

[bigbucks]

It sounds like a oxymoron, you say it's winnable, but if MK abuses all of his options, captain falcon can't do anything.

By that logic, it is infact, not winnable.

I remember when reflex used CF, he beat one of our MKs by just being horribly smart.

Howeve,r the next go around, the MK just abused his camping tools and basic spacing abilities, and ended up not giving reflex a chance of winning at all.

Point being what I said before, Falcon can win when there's an extremely large smarts gap, and if metaknight isn't abusing his spacing.

so yeah, 90:10 sounds good.

A matchup from 75-25 an up is considered unwinnable.

Mk does shut down most our options down, but i think its not 90-10 in the slightest

 

[Purple]

if it's not winnable, why is there a ten percent margin? That 10 percent is the margin of chance that captain falcon has to win.

First, I think you're giving C.Falc too much credit, second I don't think you understand that ALL OF CAPTAIN FALCON'S OPTIONS ARE SHUT DOWN.

Like, entirely, any in situation that captain falcon puts himself, metaknight can do it better and with ease.

 

[lordhelmet]

Roxy I saw a lot of errors in your post, I'll reply to them later.

And... STOP GOING OFF TOPIC WE'VE ALREADY DISCUSSED MK.

 

[Player-3]

tl;dr i said it's 7-3 if the metaknight doesn't plank and abuse gay camping/ledge strategys but people don't read that part and only read that i said 7-3

 

[A user name]

Well if they play like that...yes some where around there.

 

[Player-3]

oh, and yeah, it's definently 90-10 if the metaknight is srs playing to win and not sandbagging agaisnt a falcon

 

[A user name]

...Really? You agree?

 

[Player-3]

.....yes.... because it's true

why does that surprise you

 

[A user name]

I'm not surprised...just wasn't 100% sure it wasn't sarcasm.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Even assuming the match-up for MK is above 20:80 is ridiculous. If you're convinced that the match-up is better than that, you obviously haven't played a smart MK that knows the match-up. Sad thing to say, but Falcon doesn't have any ratio-shifting discoveries that could make it anything greater than what it is.

I'm leaning toward 10:90 - 15:85 myself, but we've already discussed Meta Knight. The discussion is on Olimar now, which I believe to be 20:80.

 

[A user name]

If you say 10-20, why don't you change the first post to say that? (This is my last off topic post, I swear.

 

[lordhelmet]

@ Everyone, MK is not that bad. Utilt outranges all of MK's attacks (to my knowledge) MK's fair (maybe bair) can be SDI'd and you can punish with a uair. It's really not that hard. Yes, we get *****. On the ground FK, dtilt, utilt, and jab can help us keep our ground. In the air uair and bair work well.

Alrighty, so we have a good idea as to how to play the matchup.

Generally speaking, have further insight on the MK player if you're going to play the MK:CF matchup. If you feel you can outsmart him throughout the entire match and he won't camp as an option, then you have as good of a chance as ever to beat MK. However in high-level, this would be a matchup to consider a lose in most cases (until something is found that's considering game breaking in CF's favor).

I agree with this, if you watch Ally vs Doc, you will see that by outsmarting Doc, Ally was able to keep ahead. But when Doc decided to play gay, he made a pretty big come back, even if Doc still lost.

If you're going to beat MK, you're probably going to have to not approach him, and let him come to you. Choose your hits extremely wisely and only take options that are guaranteed (moves that mk has that has lag, u-air'ing his approaches out of shield).

Agreed.

If you happen to get a grab, d-throw as always is your best option. Read your opponent's playing behavior and punish accordingly (if he stays in the air idle, you can probably pull off another uair, if he attacks immediately, you'd want to wait for the attack to come out before punishing with your own, if he spotdodges punish him in his vulnerable frames.

Dthrow is bad, you will always get aerialed out of it because everyone expects Falcon to use dthrow, use fthrow. It's best to hold jab when the MK spotdodges a lot.

I would consider banning stages like bf in this matchup, because u-air chains are a *****, and getting caught on a platform above MK is a tough situation to be put in.

At first glance I thought you recommended BF, my mistake. MK can camp like a ***** here, uair isn't the real problem it's nado.

I honestly can't recommend any real CP's for falcon v mk, considering metaknight has a way of playing on any stage to his advantage.

90:10 not impossible, but many variables are needed for captain falcon to possibly win.

FD. SV/YI would be my second choice. And Brawl's ratios go by "30-70 is unwinnable" and by that logic 8-2 sounds good. 7-3 if the MK doesn't play like a little *****. Either way it's generally a 'pick a cp character' situation.

 

[Zeallyx]

Yes, MK IS that bad.

And it's unwinnable for falcon by matchup ratio standards (highest level of play.)

It may be a matter of definition dissagreement, or a matter of some of you just aren't getting it.

 

[_Fizzy_]

wasn't discussing mk over ? o.0

 

[Darky-Sama]

Lord, Meta Knight really is that bad for Falcon. I know that you do pretty well with Falcon against MKs, but if a good player decided to abuse some of the things that he has on us, the match-up is almost unwinnable. Stupid Meta Knights that just spam smashes randomly, yeah. They're predictable and easy to beat, even though that seems to be MK at the top of his metagame, it really isn't.

Since MKs attacks come out so quick, he could just stand in place, wait for Falcon to come within range and punish with a split second attack that comes out on the first {or first few} frames. You can't expect to repel him with Utilt and Uair the entire match, those are just two of the only options we have that come close to outspacing him, but a GOOD Meta Knight won't let that hinder him.


I know what you're saying though. As long as we have something that works against him, it isn't unwinnable. I agree with you on that much. But the ratio being around 10:90 isn't far from the truth.

Besides, for it to be completely unwinnable, the ratio would have to be 0:100. lol

 

[Purple]

Sorry to bug in again, but who are we really discussing? >_<

 

[Zeallyx]

Sorry to bug in again, but who are we really discussing? >_<

Olimar if my memory serves me right.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Olimar, but it's the general discussion. If it has anything to do with a match-up, it goes here.

Anything anyone else would like to add about the Olimar match-up?

 

[lordhelmet]

Olimar, but it's the general discussion. If it has anything to do with a match-up, it goes here.

Anything anyone else would like to add about the Olimar match-up?

Ehh, there's a few things here and there. But if you're concerning the summary, you know everything I know.

 

[†Slader7†]

So who are we discussing now?