Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

[Jim Morrison]

Every good Sonic player knows about the tech and will only do it if they know that you do not know how to tech it. since we are assuming you will tech it the Sonic user will use a Uthrow to set up for a bad position.

They have to figure it out by using it first though ^_^. Might just be once, but still a jab. Also it gives him one less throw option, so I don't see how this is not useful. Know how to tech.

Why are you trying to Utilt a rising Sonic? all his aerials are faster than your utilt and if he Uairs, he WILL break our move because of the disjointed behavior. Its better to use it as he is falling because of his slow aerial acceleration. That and we cant sweetspot like other characters.

That's kind of what I meant, when he's rising past the ledge, shieldgrab aerials, when he's falling from up high, U-tilt. Also, U-tilt hitbox is waaaay bigger than it seems. Your right on the sweetspotting, but I meant at the peak of his jump to grab the ledge, avoiding getting above the ledge.

Let us factor Falcon's poor grab range as well as the fact that Sonic's Fair has alot of active frames. So you won't be shield grabbing him especially since Sonic users dont use their sprng in a position where you can grab them.

He can always side B or homing attack then side B.

This is true But I don't get what you mean with Side-B on this quote.

This is assuming stupid behavior of the Sonic user. That is completely irrelevant.

Irrelevant in the matchup but when actually fighting it can be handy.

 

[FAILchion-]

Norfair is probably falcons best stage. (Due to the platforms).

But then there's the matter of its legalization in some tournaments. ;x

 

[Tenki]

I think me and P3 played Norfair, (lol, I agreed to it, because I wanted to see what Falcon could do there).

It basically turned into a bunch of weird shenanigans.

Like P3 going into the lava capsule, and me standing below it and U-airing him inside until the lava came. and me spinshotting into sweet knees.

xD

 

[Player-3]

I think me and P3 played Norfair, (lol, I agreed to it, because I wanted to see what Falcon could do there).

It basically turned into a bunch of weird shenanigans.

Like P3 going into the lava capsule, and me standing below it and U-airing him inside until the lava came. and me spinshotting into sweet knees.

xD

probobly shouldnt have done that in a tourney match

but oh well

fun stuff...

theres weird shenanigans every time i play you...like spiking a MK out of his UpB LOOP...

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

WTH is this. You haven't even covered one bit of Sonic, except Jab spamming his Spindash and useless ratios (see post EDIT: above Knee's for example).

Sonic has a great recovery, he'll not get gimped. To beat him you have to use jab a lot, because it's your quickest move with decent followups. U-air juggling is hard to do in one go, because spring gets you out of it. However, Falcon's U-air totally goes trough the spring, giving you a neutral position where Sonic is coming down. U-tilt at a good range, Sonic is quite commited when he falls. His aerial acceleration is rather poor (moving from one side quickly to another, think Wario), but his aerial speed is almost as good as Falcon. U-air will also work.
Sonic Grab game is superb, DI + SDI D-throw down and immedeatly tech it. Practice this (you won't, you think you'll never encounter a Sonic who knows about this) and you can surprise a Sonic immensely, delete the option of a followup and get a free Jab in (all other moves are too slow). When Sonic is recovering without sweetspotting the ledge, or falling from Spring from up high, U-tilt him airdodging, and keep spamming it. Jabbing once also works when he springs. GRAB HIM OUT OF SPRING AND DO NOT PUMMEL. His recovery is like Snake's, but some Sonics tend to do Spring recovery and F-air you. Shield all hits and shieldgrab and win.
Both Sonic and Falcon have great juggling abilities with an opponent above them, but a rather weak spot below, with D-airs with quite the landing lag. Sonic has a Spring to hit an opponent below him though. See if you can spot some terrible Sonic habits, like approaching with Spindash (HOLD A BUTTON AND CLANG, after which you can Jab him again), Spring > D-air at top (Do what I explained many times before, U-air and U-tilt go trough D-air) and using (lol)Homing Attack (Spotdodge and punish, run away and punish, Knee and trade hits, do whatever you want to this commited attack. When a Sonic is ******** enough to recover from it below the stage, spotdodge and see him plummet to doom)

Please, do something when discussion matchups. At least try...

1. Break up text. I don't like reading text blocks. Which is why I only read the top *EYES BLEEDING*

2. Sonic's recovery is VERY easy to gimp... if he does it nearby. Uhh...

Question to sonic mains: When do you recover? Do you recover early, like most snakes should, and try to come in high, or do you like to get closer and use your spring? I find it very easy to predict and punish close up springs, when I used zelda just recently, I almost always punished close sonic recoveries with lightning kicks/spikes. Falcon can punish with Knee/Spike/Flub>Uair...

Every good Sonic player knows about the tech and will only do it if they know that you do not know how to tech it. since we are assuming you will tech it the Sonic user will use a Uthrow to set up for a bad position.



Why are you trying to Utilt a rising Sonic? all his aerials are faster than your utilt and if he Uairs, he WILL break our move because of the disjointed behavior. Its better to use it as he is falling because of his slow aerial acceleration. That and we cant sweetspot like other characters.


Let us factor Falcon's poor grab range as well as the fact that Sonic's Fair has alot of active frames. So you won't be shield grabbing him especially since Sonic users dont use their sprng in a position where you can grab them.

He can always side B or homing attack then side B.


This is assuming stupid behavior of the Sonic user. That is completely irrelevant.


mmmmph

Only good sonic I played used bthrows and uthrows. Because I teched the first Dthrow XD

Utilt won't be used close up, you have the wrong perception. Utilt WILL clash with your aerial if you do it too late, and if you throw it out too early, falcon will simply knock you away. Utilt is by far one of falcon's best anti air moves, next to simply uairing.

As for falcon's grab range, it doesn't matter, you're at point blank, he's got you for a shield grab. If you're in the position for the grab, falcon CAN grab you. At least, with a little experience.

probobly shouldnt have done that in a tourney match

but oh well

fun stuff...

theres weird shenanigans every time i play you...like spiking a MK out of his UpB LOOP...

I've spiked MK's out of shuttle loop before :D

Its a very satisfying experience.

 

[Zodac]

yoshi can chain grab by pummeling->falcon released->dash grab and can probably get a smash attack or aerial to finish, i don't know exactly ask the yoshi's they have a topic on it.

i'm also for remaking this thread, DDD, Wario, Mario and Ganondorf are wrong and i see no reason why samus isn't a 50-50 falcon basically is a counter.

 

[FAILchion-]

yoshi can chain grab by pummeling->falcon released->dash grab and can probably get a smash attack or aerial to finish, i don't know exactly ask the yoshi's they have a topic on it.

i'm also for remaking this thread, DDD, Wario, Mario and Ganondorf are wrong and i see no reason why samus isn't a 50-50 falcon basically is a counter.

Explain why they're wrong. And Capt. Falcon doesn't counter Samus.

 

[Zodac]

DDD chain grabs very nicely on falcon and easly out-spaces should be worse for falcon, also isn't relatively right to other high tier match-ups (same as ike i think, lawl).

Wario - grab releases, should be lower, isn't relatively right to other high tier match-ups (same as falco).

Mario - counters falcon,
-fireballs go through raptor boost and cancel out the kick.
- has a very nice up-tilt juggle which he can finish off with an u-air/b-air/d-air/n-air or up-smash at even lower %.
-can punish landing lag on stage with back throw (which can then seet up a cape gimp.)
- cape on up-B, falcon can't do ****.
- back air + fludd + cape + fireballs = huge gimpabilty.
- falcon has a momentum based recovery, mario has fludd that cancels momentum + the ****ing cape.
-F smash > any kill move falcon has.
- up throw combo's.
- mario wins the air.
- falcon has nothing but vertical weight counter to up smash, ****ing **** match-up.

65-35 bare minimum, try 70-30+

-falcon is at-least as good as g dorf, for reasons already known. G dorf boards also have it 50-50.

-samus
-falcon is the 5th heavest character vertically, samus only kills verically.
-falcon wins close range
-samus can't kill for ****
-z-air is over-rated.
-too slow.
- samus relies on gimp kills alot
- i have seen no good arguements why samus has an advanage.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Oh lawdy. I'm not even going to honor the above with a response. I'll let others do the tearing up there.

Also for the chaingrab, I'll correct it.

But huh, what's an area for ratios for the matchups then? They both seem to be fairly bad. About 60-40 their advantages minimum. I'd say Yoshi is a bit harder though. Something like 65-35 for Yoshi and something like 60-40 Sonic?

 

[Jim Morrison]

1. Break up text. I don't like reading text blocks. Which is why I only read the top *EYES BLEEDING*

2. Sonic's recovery is VERY easy to gimp... if he does it nearby. Uhh...

I felt like my enters did the job enough, breaking it up to new pieces, no whole lines are needed for that.
It's not easy to gimp, nor is it easy to hit out of it. I might have underestimated it a bit, but still U-tilt should do a fine job.

Question to sonic mains: When do you recover? Do you recover early, like most snakes should, and try to come in high, or do you like to get closer and use your spring? I find it very easy to predict and punish close up springs, when I used zelda just recently, I almost always punished close sonic recoveries with lightning kicks/spikes. Falcon can punish with Knee/Spike/Flub>Uair...

Best is to use Spring to reach for the ledge and avoid a fall where you can only airdodge. However, if there's some space where you can land, go for that. I find Spring relatively more safe than Snake's Cypher because it goes much faster, making it harder to land. If the Sonic is any decent, they'll airdodge out of Spring

EDIT: For ratio I'd go saying 55:45/60:40 Sonic advantage, but then again, both characters have a lot of stuff which is used in real battles but can't be taken into account in matchup threads (think mindgames, fake CG (lol Falcon D-throw airdodging opponent))

 

[SmashBrother2008]

-fireballs go through raptor boost and cancel out the kick.

See: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214519

The Raptor boost gets canceled only with the right timing.

 

[PK-ow!]

Oh lawdy. I'm not even going to honor the above with a response. I'll let others do the tearing up there.

He's right about G-dorf, though. We do have it as 50-50.

Except - if he meant something other than what I just said - about being at least as good as us. >_>

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

We need a new match-up thread. We need more people to stay on topic, too.

 

[Zeallyx]

We need a new match-up thread. We need more people to stay on topic, too.

Agreed.
This thread is incorrect on some matchups, and we lack the coorporation of the other character boards.
You guys do need a new matchup thread.

 

[Player-3]

ill make it after this discussion is over...

havent made any threads because im horribad at them... but ill try this time

after yoshi/ sonic ratio is over ill make a new one if its okay with you majora

 

[Zeallyx]

ill make it after this discussion is over...

havent made any threads because im horribad at them... but ill try this time

after yoshi/ sonic ratio is over ill make a new one if its okay with you majora

No. You yourself said you will be banned soon. We need someone who can update it regularly.
I am not going to make it. (<just to make sure).

 

[Player-3]

No. You yourself said you will be banned soon. We need someone who can update it regularly.
I am not going to make it. (<just to make sure).

LOL...

good point...

 

[SmashBrother2008]

I'm here regularly. If you guys still need a new matchup thread made soon just give a holler...

 

[Noodlehead]

i dont think making a new thread is going to keep it active. just throwing it out there...

 

[FAILchion-]

I wanted to make a new thread as soon as we had 'something' for the matchups. If some of you guys could get input from other boards, that'd be awesome. We got a lot for Diddy Kong, but not so much Pit or Wolf.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

My thoughts/ideas is one character a week, and make sure we get input from other boards as well as experience in the match-up. From what many falcon's here are saying about sonic, I lol'd inside. If we don't get enough input/experience, just keep that character on hold. I'd do it myself but updating a topic from a phone would be lulzy.

 

[Zodac]

See: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214519

The Raptor boost gets canceled only with the right timing.

is that list done with kick and raptor boost being used last?

@TC go to the mario boards and say it's 60-40 for mario and get "teared up".
Or you could actually go through the thread and actually read what everyone said. There was like 2 people who said 60-40 both falcon mains, no mario main said it was at 60 or lower.

 

[Zeallyx]

is that list done with kick and raptor boost being used last?

@TC go to the mario boards and say it's 60-40 for mario and get "teared up".
Or you could actually go through the thread and actually read what everyone said. There was like 2 people who said 60-40 both falcon mains, no mario main said it was at 60 or lower.

This^

We really do need a new matchup thread.

 

[.Marik]

You guys need anymore input/advice from the Yoshi Boards?

 

[Darxmarth23]

You guys need anymore input/advice from the Yoshi Boards?

We would appreciate information.

 

[Furbs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3XQB44j26c&NR=1

for when u guys talk about the ice climbers

also as for yoshi i play roy_r's falcon at bes i'd call it a 55:45 yoshi

but then again Roy is just amazing

then again it could boil down to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAPb33CerPM

 

[SmashBrother2008]

is that list done with kick and raptor boost being used last?

Could you rephrase that?

 

[Player-3]

I wanted to make a new thread as soon as we had 'something' for the matchups. If some of you guys could get input from other boards, that'd be awesome. We got a lot for Diddy Kong, but not so much Pit or Wolf.

i played a pit recently so i can put some more in for this.

pits a *****, his arrows will keep you away, and when you get close he will wreck you with Nair or other things along that line, its easily 70:30 if not worse.. yes pit dies early but he can camp like a mother... ill extend later busy playing xbox wanted to see how far flame had developed


and ill make the new thread falchion if you dont want to or its an inconvienince

 

[t3h n00b]

One thing for Pit in case I forget, if you're playing a lame spammy Pit (so probably at least half of them) they will approach with angel ring (sideB) all the time until you double stick DI out. Maybe QCDI will work, but if you do it right, you can pop out behind Pit and punish, but otherwise, you will be forced to approach in the air, which isn't terrible considering how bad the ground game will be against arrows, but forces you to be predictable.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Hmm, alright then. Since you're all up for making the matchup thread. Then do it. Feel free to use my data as you see fit. I'm no longer running this matchup thread in any way shape or form. I'm also pretty much leaving Smashboards except for the backroom. If anyone wants to discuss matchups or anything I'll always be around on msn and such but don't expect me to be coming on and posting.

That's about all. Have fun running it guys. :D

 

[Player-3]

Hmm, alright then. Since you're all up for making the matchup thread. Then do it. Feel free to use my data as you see fit. I'm no longer running this matchup thread in any way shape or form. I'm also pretty much leaving Smashboards except for the backroom. If anyone wants to discuss matchups or anything I'll always be around on msn and such but don't expect me to be coming on and posting.

That's about all. Have fun running it guys. :D

alright cya <3

 

[Darxmarth23]

This is what the marth boards have done - credit to steel

Every week they make a new matchup thread for a new character.

At the end of the 37 weeks, you make an index that is stickied with all of the matchup threads linked.

And there will be summaries of each match up.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Every week they make a new matchup thread for a new character.

At the end of the 37 weeks, you make an index that is stickied with all of the matchup threads linked.

And there will be summaries of each match up.

id love to agree with this, but one week for each character is rather too little time since a lot of people here think they know match-ups because they want to sound knowledgable.. I mean come on.. 50-50 sonic? he's easy to gimp?

 

[t3h n00b]

Since it seems that a new matchup thread will likely be made, I think it would save us a lot of time if we keep some matchups that we are pretty much unanimous on.

I wanted to make a new thread as soon as we had 'something' for the matchups. If some of you guys could get input from other boards, that'd be awesome. We got a lot for Diddy Kong, but not so much Pit or Wolf.

So, for example, maybe we could keep the Diddy matchup, or some that have a lot of good information and not really anything to add, but for Pit, Wolf, and the majority of the characters that there is a disagreement or lack of information on, they would be addressed in the new thread. Although I really don't think there needs to be a new thread, just maybe more time to discuss certain matchups. Majority rules though :/

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Keep the matchups that have been agreed on by the majority.

As for the other ones, we redo them, and make big annoying topics on the other characters boards so we actually get some discussion.

One at a time.

 

[Zodac]

my mistake on the fireballs, i didn't know how bad there prioty was, but they still screw with your spacing.

faclon kick>fireball
raptor boost=fireball
fireball>raptor boost lag/end.

most of the match-up's were fine, although there was a few :5 off imo.
Easy to fix i don't think making a new thread will help (yes i'm being a hypocrite now).


gannondorf from 45:55 to 50:50
Mario from 40:60 to 35:65
Dedede from 35:65 to 30:70 (maybe even worse.)
Wario from 25:75 to 30:70
Falcon to OMG
Samus = 47.5 (i don't know)
is ike that bad at-least we can gimp him, thats more than i can say for others.
I don't think much of Ike in general, his bad.

 

[ShadowLink84]

2. Sonic's recovery is VERY easy to gimp... if he does it nearby. Uhh...

Eat a Uair.

Question to sonic mains: When do you recover? Do you recover early, like most snakes should, and try to come in high, or do you like to get closer and use your spring? I find it very easy to predict and punish close up springs, when I used zelda just recently, I almost always punished close sonic recoveries with lightning kicks/spikes. Falcon can punish with Knee/Spike/Flub>Uair...

Dont play a bad Sonic. We can recover from practically everywhere.
We can use Side B and then double jump without having to use our spring at all.

or we can homing attack thens ide B back onto the stage.
Spring is the last resort, and even then we have methods of dealing with the possible grab. naely with our Uair.

Only good sonic I played used bthrows and uthrows. Because I teched the first Dthrow XD[/qute]
Fthrow is pretty good IMO.Sets up for Uairs

Utilt won't be used close up, you have the wrong perception. Utilt WILL clash with your aerial if you do it too late, and if you throw it out too early, falcon will simply knock you away. Utilt is by far one of falcon's best anti air moves, next to simply uairing.

No dude, if Sonic Uairs when you are in range for you to perform a utilt, the Uair WILL connect with Captain Falcon because it is stupidly disjointed horizontally on the first hit, and vertically disjointed on the second hit.

As for falcon's grab range, it doesn't matter, you're at point blank, he's got you for a shield grab. If you're in the position for the grab, falcon CAN grab you. At least, with a little experience.

Except that Sonic can control when he springs and really should not be grabbed out of it.

I would have addressed this earlier but I ahve been busy @_@

 

[talkingbeatles]

I know that we're talking about Yoshi (?) and Sonic right now, but can I motion for opening back up the fox v. falcon match up?

Or should I start a new thread and come back here with for information?