Calling all NC TO's and players

[GofG]

Starcraft has the largest learning curve of any competitive game on the planet. Players can play for months and years and watch starcraft and pay for korean television and still be ranked D+ on iccup (me me me)! Starcraft is also the largest and most successful and best competitive game on earth.

Every year, starcraft is a completely different game than it was the previous year, and this isn't just the metagame cycling itself around; the metagame is evolving. A year ago, a terran would be crazy to go mech against zerg. Nowadays, it becomes more and more popular as another possible build, one that can only be countered by extremely good scouting. The metagame is evolving because the learning curve stays constant and we have not yet hit the ceiling of skill.

What are some other games with incredibly constant learning curves, and incredibly high skill ceilings? Marvel vs Capcom 2. Guilty Gear XX Accent Core. Street Fighter 2 Alpha. Melee. Yeah, all of these games have diminishing returns on additional practice put into them, but still, you do get better, and you get better quickly the more you practice.

Brawl, however, has a VERY FAST JUMP up to a plateau for its learning curve. Every competitive player is on the same skill plateau, just further along it than others, and I doubt that it'll ever change. In two weeks, you're almost as good as someone who's been playing for years. And maybe one can always get better, maybe that skill ceiling won't ever be reached, but lol, who can really tell the difference.

That's my opinion anyway.

 

[I am Seth]

Foxy's just a hater, and writes to much.

 

[Foxy]

Seth you've never even met me!

I really hope you're just trolling...

 

[GofG]

Well, Anyone can play a character good. It takes a certain person to play a character great.

omg neither of those are adverbs. adjectives cannot describe verbs! wtf is wrong with you

 

[Foxy]

gofg i like your title

 

[kackamee]

omg neither of those are adverbs. adjectives cannot describe verbs! wtf is wrong with you

Lulz, I kinda did that on purpose. I thought it made it sound better

 

[Foxy]

you were just going for that Twelfth Night quote-style-feel, weren't you?

 

[I am Seth]

I give up, i was t-rolling.

 

[kackamee]

you were just going for that Twelfth Night quote-style-feel, weren't you?

Don't know whut that is...but sure. Lol
I'm going to bedddddzzzz. I'm probably not gonna be able to sleep tommorow cuz of the hype so I should sleep now.

 

[Foxy]

I give up, i was t-rolling.

:<

:3

Don't know whut that is...but sure. Lol
I'm going to bedddddzzzz. I'm probably not gonna be able to sleep tommorow cuz of the hype so I should sleep now.

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

-Malvolio (reading the letter from Olivia forged by Maria)

 

[GofG]

Ask for me tomorrow, and you shall find me a grave man!

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

stingers beat chu in a match and also did really well against him in the whole set.

stingers is obviously really good, not saying it's a fluke, but it's a part of brawl's low skill curve.

The Stinger/Chu aregument is irrelevant because I'd assume that They've both been playing Brawl since Release. Like it or not, Brawl is a different game and Melee schenanigans don't carry over. Granted, Chu won out because he's been playing at a higher level of smash for a longer period so certain things carried over like his ability to read opponents. Still, you could write off the "low skill gap" due to the fact that BRAWL HASN'T BEEN OUT AS LONG AS MELEE.

duh

Melee's still more fun for me though. I love all three smash games(Melee, Brawl, Brawl+. **** 64)

 

[Vilt]

PLUR



you still a *****.... xD

 

[0megaZer0]

The Stinger/Chu aregument is irrelevant because I'd assume that They've both been playing Brawl since Release. Like it or not, Brawl is a different game and Melee schenanigans don't carry over. Granted, Chu won out because he's been playing at a higher level of smash for a longer period so certain things carried over like his ability to read opponents. Still, you could write off the "low skill gap" due to the fact that BRAWL HASN'T BEEN OUT AS LONG AS MELEE.

duh

Melee's still more fun for me though. I love all three smash games(Melee, Brawl, Brawl+. **** 64)

Tell Isai that, lolz

Nah, 64 is fun but I suck at it!

 

[kackamee]

:<

:3



Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

-Malvolio (reading the letter from Olivia forged by Maria)

That sounds cool. Yeah, that's pretty much where I was going toward.

The Stinger/Chu aregument is irrelevant because I'd assume that They've both been playing Brawl since Release. Like it or not, Brawl is a different game and Melee schenanigans don't carry over. Granted, Chu won out because he's been playing at a higher level of smash for a longer period so certain things carried over like his ability to read opponents. Still, you could write off the "low skill gap" due to the fact that BRAWL HASN'T BEEN OUT AS LONG AS MELEE.

duh

Melee's still more fun for me though. I love all three smash games(Melee, Brawl, Brawl+. **** 64)

I also thought about arguing that PLUR, but I didn't because I think it's wrong. But now that I'm reading over your post, I kinda don't remember why I thought it was wrong.

I mean, it might take longer to be great at Melee but if your dedicated it shouldn't take that much longer than learning to be great at brawl right?

One thing I think doesn't make sense is that Brawl has been out for like 8 years now. If you haven't had it for atleast 4-5 years now...where have you been?

 

[0megaZer0]

It's only been out in America like a year I think...now the Japan copies -- I never could get my hands on that!

 

[OmniOstrich]

After playing M2K for several hours in both games I think its a joke that people say the learning curve in brawl is that much different than in melee. Although he suicides a lot bc its friendlies, I barely took a handful of stocks off of him the entire night (as in me actually causing his death, not him SDing because he wanted the 0-death.)

Also brawl has combos, he was showing me how a lot of 3-5 hit strings his was pulling off were inescapable.

I get excited when playing brawl, and when watching matches at high levels of play (especially doubles since those generally don't take 6-8min like a lot of singles matches.)

 

[0megaZer0]

After playing M2K for several hours in both games I think its a joke that people say the learning curve in brawl is that much different than in melee. Although he suicides a lot bc its friendlies, I barely took a handful of stocks off of him the entire night (as in me actually causing his death, not him SDing because he wanted the 0-death.)

Also brawl has combos, he was showing me how a lot of 3-5 hit strings his was pulling off were inescapable.

I get excited when playing brawl, and when watching matches at high levels of play (especially doubles since those generally don't take 6-8min like a lot of singles matches.)

Was M2K using MK only?

 

[kackamee]

Was M2K using MK only?

It matters?

 

[0megaZer0]

I was just wondering...I only know a few inescapable combos...but MK is the main one

 

[kackamee]

I was just wondering...I only know a few inescapable combos...but MK is the main one

I'm pretty sure Falco's/DDD's/Pika's/IC's chaingrabs can be considered combos. Lucario has a few if I'm not mistaken. Diddy has some. Of course MK has some lol. That's all I can think of at this moment in time but...yeah.

 

[0megaZer0]

I'm pretty sure Falco's/DDD's/Pika's/IC's chaingrabs can be considered combos. Lucario has a few if I'm not mistaken. Diddy has some. Of course MK has some lol. That's all I can think of at this moment in time but...yeah.

I shall agree to that, and Fox and MAYBE Marth...I'm sure only if you can get the Double Fair started!

 

[OmniOstrich]

If you guys think anything other than that every character in brawl has at least a few 2-3 hit true combos then you need more experience with this game.

 

[kackamee]

If you guys think anything other than that every character in brawl has at least a few 2-3 hit true combos then you need more experience with this game.

O.o I never said they didn't. I was agreeing with you. Traitor D:

 

[Foxy]

After playing M2K for several hours in both games I think its a joke that people say the learning curve in brawl is that much different than in melee.

Unfortunately, it is. It's indisputable.

Brawl simply has less to learn in order to be able to play comfortably with good players. There's no way you can compare the amount of practice and time Melee requires to the small bit that you need for Brawl.

Obviously Brawl has about as much study required as Melee, so I can't say that in the non-muscle-memory department Melee also has an advantage, especially because Brawl requires more of a focus on specific move usage and matchups.

But it's just not comparable.

I have at least 2 or 3 friends that have been playing Melee for years and in the last 5 months have been very solidly practicing the game in order to learn tech skill and become competitive in tournaments. They've definitely improved but they wouldn't be able to take more than a stock off of any good player in NC.

Take someone who already has experience with casual smash and give them 5 months to practice and play Brawl, I can guarantee you that they will be very competitively capable.

Brawl may still have a skill gap that especially comes from smart and careful spacing and character and matchup knowledge, but clearly the almost complete lack of requirement of motor skill and practice means that the skill curve is nothing compared to Melee.

And again, there really isn't anything intrinsically wrong with a low skill curve, because it causes players to reach the skill plateau sooner and from that point can almost only push the mental game for improvement (as many Brawl players state). But the games absolutely have a very different skill curve.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Unfortunately, it is. It's indisputable.

I mean you condemned this game in your first couple hours of playing it, I have no hope of convincing you otherwise.

 

[Foxy]

I mean you condemned this game in your first couple hours of playing it, I have no hope of convincing you otherwise.

I've played Brawl for a loooooong time, for the last few months I've quit it but I played it pretty seriously before and my first two smash tournaments were only for Brawl. And I'm actually picking it up again more seriously, going to probably play it and enter at HERB.

I don't mind it that much.

I just don't personally find it to be anywhere near as fun as Melee, and I also know that the skill curve is much smaller.

Again, doesn't mean it's a worse game, though.

 

[kackamee]

Who do you play in brawl?

 

[Foxy]

I used to play just MK, now I main Kirby and secondary MK.

Although I've gone through maining almost every character in the cast at one point so I really don't know who I play.

And I haven't played offline with actual people in quite a while, when I do it'll help decide if I want to stick with Kirby or not.

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

hey foxy were you at animazement weren't you i think i played you and a good ganondorf player in teams

 

[stingers]

i dont think the "skill gap" in either game is really far enough apart to be an issue

i mean once you come down to it, smash is just learning matchups with your main. melee has more universal techniques to learn but those don't actually take a lot of practice.

 

[Foxy]

hey foxy were you at animazement weren't you i think i played you and a good ganondorf player in teams

if you're talking about melee, then yeah, i did team with a great ganondorf for a long time on the friday.

 

[mr.fizwidget]

m2k's opinion of skill level in both games

"im better in melee than in brawl"

"brawl players are not nearly as good, so its easier for me to dominate"

"brawl doubles is superior because it promotes aggression, melee singles is better because i like to finish my combos"

"haha i did 666 damage"-M2k
"why is that funny"-Fiz
"im the devil"-M2k

 

[Ragnar0k]

lol @ m2k purposefully 4 stocking people like 3 matches in a row with 69%.

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

if you're talking about melee, then yeah, i did team with a great ganondorf for a long time on the friday.

yeah that had to been you you play fox marth and falcon right? I was the peach player

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

I really don't matter to you guys because I haven't been going to tournies as of late, but my crew and I could literally never play Brawl+. Half of us don't have Wiis, and don't have good enough equip/internet to even start off with this. I know we're an active Brawl+ state, but I think that having ONLY Brawl+ tournies will serve nothing but to alienate some Smashers.

At least push for hosting three tournies instead of replacing Brawl. I like Brawl (even though I prefer Melee), and I know a lot of other people here like Brawl as is too.

I suppose, though, I'm only speaking for myself and my crewmates. I have no ill will towards your idea, I just prefer you start up a third tournament tier instead of throwing out Brawl.

If NC just throws out Brawl, there's another year of my life ****ing wasted on a game no one plays anymore. And I would be really sad. :C

true true i have a wii and from what i've seen on brawl+ i'm not impressed with it honestly i just don't why to play brawl+. The most popular fighting games aren't really balanced if you think about it look at sf4 look at how much better they made Sagat and Zangief i mean yes it's nice that trippin is out of brawl+ but i think there's strategy in brawl (not as much as melee) but it's there but i don't think melee is balanced only five characters are the most used (fox,falco,marth,sheik,falcon) i mean i know there are people who play other than the five i mentioned and who are beast at them ex chu dat, bum, etc but i feel that some of the stuff thats in brawl+ is pointless its not going to make the game balanced to me it will make another character broken but that's just my opinion.

 

[0megaZer0]

So far...Brawl+ isn't that bad [IMO]

I haven't found a character to be so good to status of Snake and MK in vBRawl -- Actually it kinda makes alot of the low tiers from vBrawl MUCH more competitive now EX: Sonic, PT, CAPTAIN FALCON [Finally], Luigi, Mario, Link...and even G-Dorf!

Until Brawl+ really shows BROKEN characters...I will agree, make it at least a Third Tourney session...Brawl isn't quite ready to get tossed yet.

I just got a Wii and I'm pretty satisfied with Brawl+ and even vBrawl -- I'm not quite as annoyed, at least not with Dubz...as for singles I only compete with broken guys because those are the few that really win Tournies on a consistent basis [Though I love Lucario myself -- Brawl+ gave him a nice boost too!]

EDIT: Once Brawl+ becomes gold then shall we REALLY decide whether it's time to toss vBrawl -- It's hard to run tournyes on a constantly version updating game you know?

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

brawl+ to me seems like a ripoff of melee and brawl together

 

[0megaZer0]

brawl+ to me seems like a ripoff of melee and brawl together

Thats not exactly what it's supposed to be...but they are putting things in Brawl that has been in smash since 64 like L-Cancel, Techs, and Hit-Stun things that this current smash game lacks [even though there is nothing wrong with that], thats all

Plus as of now [because who knows what the future holds...] it evens out the competitiveness of the roster -- now the vBrawl low tiers can compete on the [just about] same level with the vBrawl high tiers

Example: DK can now really compete with a D3 or even a Marth [though it's still slightly harder due to character reach and speed] but it's even more so possible!

 

[Dr Peepee]

i dont think the "skill gap" in either game is really far enough apart to be an issue

i mean once you come down to it, smash is just learning matchups with your main. melee has more universal techniques to learn but those don't actually take a lot of practice.

There's so much more to learn than just matchups. Why does everything have to be so simplified? Smash is not "just" matchups. You have opponent styles and your own attempts to be innovative/tricky while playing that lend a depth that makes these matchups difficult to learn as easily as you like to make them out to be.

The skill gaps between great players aren't that big, but between the greats and tops the gap is more than noticeable.

I agree that tech skill, once acquired, requires very mild maintenance(character-dependent but I'm being more general here).