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California, Prop 8

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Mewter

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That makes more sense.
The only way to bring it to the Supreme Court's attention is by appeal? That would take a while.... and because of the wording of the proposition, it's a little hard to disallow, and would take a long time to sort out. The main message is clear, though. They want to ban gay marriage and hurt a minority group. That's all there is to it. You would think people would use common sense?
I think it would be quick and easy to discard just because of the main idea. But because of the wording and heaviness involved in it.....
Anyways, what you said about banning gay marriage is not true. They are just not allowing it without mention to it at all. They sure are crafty, aren't they?
Ah, Mewter, as much as I agree with you on the ideal of gay marriage, I disagree upon this subject. For you see, although revision is ideally used for big changes, it's not the meaning of the word revision. Revision is rather the act of altering something or the alteration of something. Here, there was no previous definition for marriage in the constitution of California and Prop 8 simply adds to give it a definition instead of revising it's meaning. After all, you can't revise what's not there. It's not revising the protection of all part, just amending the meaning of marriage.
I had edited my post a few minutes after I had realized what I had typed. ;)
 

aeghrur

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They are crafty which is why this thing is no longer about the ideal of gay marriage or not but rather if the amendment was unconstitutional or not, lol. My opinion, it's not unconstitutional, well, based on the californian constitution. See, although the main idea is to ban gay marriage, that's not what they make it out to be and it's not what the lawsuit is about. =/ The lawsuit is strictly about rather this proposition opposes the californian constitution or not.
Oh, interesting thing though. If your not allowed to deem gay marriage illegal, then you must allow gay marriage as you cannot separate marriage for gays and marriage for heterosexuals. So it's either you ban gay marriage and it's allowed, you do nothing and it continues on, or you allow it as separate but equal can't exist. =D But who knows what politicians can come up with.

Btw, I editted my post after you editted yours because I saw the link, read it, and typed up that paragraph, lol.
 

SilentFalcon

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What I don't understand—is how can you give marriage to some people and not to others? So is getting married as a gay person illegal now? Will you get sent to prison? What if a church married you anyway? Would he get sent to prison with you?

Honestly this sounds like the biggest load of BS. Just because you're a Redneck, or overly Christian white jerk, doesn't mean EVERYONE has to suffer. I know the Church has a stick up its butt, but somehow I feel if the church decided to endorse Against Prop 8 Causes, they might make a little extra money.
 

aeghrur

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Because some people believe that non-traditional couples do not support as good of a family to children as hetereosexual couples. Since marriage is basically a way to strengthen the foundation for family support of children, people say you shouldn't allow gay marriages as it would be worse for children.

I'm not sure if I typed that right cuz I'm kind of sleepy, but general idea. I'm actually for gay marriage btw.

:093
 

adumbrodeus

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Actually Mewter, the only way it WOULD be unconstitutional would be if it revised the californian constitution. See, it's a state law and marriage is a state power thus the federal constitution cannot impose upon it. Now, also, if this proposition becomes an amendment, it can't be fixed either as you cannot revise the californian constitution, only add on to it or amend it. So, the real question is is this proposition adding on to the californian constitution or revising a definition within the constitution?
What do you mean the federal constitution cannot impose upon it? The supremacy clause means the federal constitution trumps all law of any government entity. Period.

Based on how the federal constituion deals with the issue, 1 or more branches may be able to override state laws, in the case of discrimination both the Federal Courts and the Legislature have the power to nullify prop 8, due to the 14th amendment clauses 1 and 5.

So, yeah, that's not correct.
 

aeghrur

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What do you mean the federal constitution cannot impose upon it? The supremacy clause means the federal constitution trumps all law of any government entity. Period.

Based on how the federal constituion deals with the issue, 1 or more branches may be able to override state laws, in the case of discrimination both the Federal Courts and the Legislature have the power to nullify prop 8, due to the 14th amendment clauses 1 and 5.

So, yeah, that's not correct.
Oh seriously? I thought marriage was a state-given power. As in the state has the power to make laws about marriage, not the federal government. =/ Didn't know the federal government could trump it with power which it wasn't given... Or that it had power over marriage at all. =/

:093:
 

adumbrodeus

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Oh seriously? I thought marriage was a state-given power. As in the state has the power to make laws about marriage, not the federal government. =/ Didn't know the federal government could trump it with power which it wasn't given... Or that it had power over marriage at all. =/

:093:
The federal government doesn't have power over marriage generally.

But it has the power to regulate any discriminatory state practice under the 14th amendment, that includes marriage.


In almost every other situation the state government has complete discretion over marriage.
 

aeghrur

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The federal government doesn't have power over marriage generally.

But it has the power to regulate any discriminatory state practice under the 14th amendment, that includes marriage.


In almost every other situation the state government has complete discretion over marriage.
Ohh, okay. thanks for clearing that up. xD

:093:
 

Atsu

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Hmm... just wrote about this on my DWA. I only read the first few posts, so I apologize if I bring something up that's been "settled" or something (first time in the Debate Hall too).

First, I'll tell you that I'm strongly against Prop 8 (probably Level 3). I feel that holy matrimony is a right anyone should have, no matter what their nationality, gender, or sexual interests. I also feel that this decision is filled with religious biasedness. Sure, I understand that marriage is done by a Priest which is at a Church, the House of God, and through Adam and Eve (not Adam and Steven), Gay Marriage = Blasphemy, but is that enough to deny two gay individuals that love and accept each other? In most cases, their love is even greater than a male-female relationship since they have to accept each other and be open to the public that they are gay and take on the burdens of discrimination and stereotyping on their shoulders.

When I ask people about what they voted for and why, most of them bring up the little "It's Adam and Eve; not Adam and Steven/Evan" crack. Others go on the basis of the Big Bang and Evolution theories. I guess I can understand the Big Bang/Evolution Defense (Although sometimes I feel that they're making it up so they aren't publically discriminating homosexuals), but then I also don't understand it. Are you going to try to forcibly make two individuals love someone else? Otherwise, why does it matter if it conflicts with evolution. They aren't going to change, and why should they?

Anyways, I feel like America (yes I know that not all states went "Yes on Prop 8," but I'd rather not state which ones did or didn't) needs to learn from the mistakes our past generations have made and build off of it to become a stronger nation. We denied rights to everyone, excluding white males, and treated the other portion of the population like crap. We had to deal with the Civil War, the most bloodiest battle in American history, for the abolishment of slavery (and also the reunification of the United States). Then we finally amended the Constitution with the 13th and 14th Amendments which gave Blacks and Women equal rights and sort of reinforced citizenship. Then the 15th Amendment granted suffrage only to Blacks, not women. They rioted, aggressively debated, and rebelled against society for equal rights. Right now, we are basically asking the homosexual society and others that support their cause to rebel against the state if they want equal rights. Sure, they still have their citizenship and suffrage, but why should you deny part of the populace the right to holy matrimony? Is it not the same as denying African Americans and Women their rights?

I know it's a democracy, and the majority wins and whatever, but I feel religious biasedness and discrimination holds too much power and makes Prop 8 corrupt. Through the 10th Amendment, the states and the people have the right to decide on the basis of marriage. But through the Judiciary Act of 1789, we may declare acts/props unconstitutional (under what basis, I'm not sure at the moment). But even without that, when it comes this far, I feel that the United States Government needs to get involved (possibly amending the Constitution with the 28th Amendment or whatever comes next). Sure, discrimination of gays will be at it's peak, but this was the same case with Blacks and Women. They were discriminated against until they were forced to fight. Again, we're basically taunting homosexuals to take a stand and fight.
 

illinialex24

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I have mentioned this previously, but I will again here because its been a while:

As I see it, there are three degrees to being "against" something.

1) You believe it is "wrong" but don't particularly care in practice about yourself or others doing it.
Ex: Speeding.

2) You believe it is "wrong" and don't do it. But don't believe it should be made illegal.
Ex: Adultery

3) You believe it is so wrong that nobody should be allowed to do it.
Ex: Murder



If you are in level 1 or 2 on the subject of gay marriage, then I respectfully disagree with you. I disagree that there is anything wrong with the act, but respect your opinion to allow others to be free.

If you are a level 3 against gay marriage then I disrespectfully disagree with you. You are terrible human being, and don't deserve the rights that you take for granted.
This was a great post. Just truly great. Possibly the best summary of my own feelings towards those who try to segregate others based on born characteristics. I support gay marriage because we should treat others equally.
 

DtJ Jungle

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OK my thing is that I don't think that the government should recognize marriage in general, should only recognize civil unions. By this it could cover homo or heterosexuals, and everyone has the same rights. I just feel marriage or matrimony is a religious term. And this term needs to be separated from the State. By calling all unions civil unions, you can allow gay's to have the same rights. If you get marriage at a church, great you can call it marriage...but the state shoudl only recognize the union between two people. They shouldn't be allowed to ban people. If a church doesn't want to allow gay marriage, whatever, the state should still be able to recognize it.
 

aeghrur

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OK my thing is that I don't think that the government should recognize marriage in general, should only recognize civil unions. By this it could cover homo or heterosexuals, and everyone has the same rights. I just feel marriage or matrimony is a religious term. And this term needs to be separated from the State. By calling all unions civil unions, you can allow gay's to have the same rights. If you get marriage at a church, great you can call it marriage...but the state shoudl only recognize the union between two people. They shouldn't be allowed to ban people. If a church doesn't want to allow gay marriage, whatever, the state should still be able to recognize it.
No, you can't have separate but equal. This has been discussed in the brown vs Board of education cases. Civil unions vs marriages is like it. Your separate but "equal", but this separation will ALWAYS cause a feeling of superiority upon one side. Do you seriously want the same kind of discrimination that went towards black people at the time going towards gay people? No... Separate but equal does not work. Also, civil union only applies to states, so couples are still losing out rights from the federal level, iirc.
Also, the government is the one who should control the ideal/definition of marriage, not the church. The point people are arguing for gay marriage is because marriage is, so far, the one and only thing that allows gays to have EQUAL protection and rights under the rights of law. Civil unions won't do that. The Church's involvement shouldn't even be discussed because we don't care if they don't want to marry gay couples okay? They don't have to. They just have to accept that marriage can be between gay couples instead of simply heterosexual couples. If they don't want to marry 2 homosexual people, then they don't have to. But they cannot simply say, no, we won't allow gay marriage because God said it's wrong, marriage is only in our religion, so no gay marriage.

:093:
 

DtJ Jungle

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They just have to accept that marriage can be between gay couples instead of simply heterosexual couples. If they don't want to marry 2 homosexual people, then they don't have to. But they cannot simply say, no, we won't allow gay marriage because God said it's wrong, marriage is only in our religion, so no gay marriage.

:093:
thats what i was trying to convey, maybe i worded it terribly and i apologize.
 

Oracle

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Marriage has been defined constantly as the union between one man and one woman. By the same logic that changes it to a man and a man or vice versa, we could say that polygamy is just fine.
 

arrowhead

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uh, no because marriage can be redefined (as it has throughout history) as between two people

how would that be in any way harmful?
 

Mewter

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Strawman much?

Please explain how broadening the term to mean "between two persons" can lead to polygamy.
"Between two persons" can allow polygamy just as any other definition can, unless it says"a person may only be married to one individual person at a time."
Just pointing that out. It leaves a loophole for polygamy, but does not lead to it.

Edit:
1 w1nged @ngel said:
Marriage has been defined constantly as the union between one man and one woman. By the same logic that changes it to a man and a man or vice versa, we could say that polygamy is just fine.
How does changing it to a man/man or woman/woman relationship encourage polygamy? As I said above, it allows it as long as there is no clause stopping it.
 

Aesir

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"Between two persons" can allow polygamy just as any other definition can, unless it says"a person may only be married to one individual person at a time."
Just pointing that out. It leaves a loophole for polygamy, but does not lead to it.
Come again?

Between two persons, doesn't leave polygamy open. Polygamy is more then two partners. "Between two persons" is monogamy.

There's no loophole.
 

Mewter

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Come again?

Between two persons, doesn't leave polygamy open. Polygamy is more then two partners. "Between two persons" is monogamy.

There's no loophole.
But people can do this multiple times, unless I'm mistaken, which would lead to polygamy, correct?
Or, we could just be talking past each other.
 

Thrillhouse-vh.

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If you are implying that a person can be married again keeping the previous spouse, that person already has a two person marriage in work. So, no.
 

Mewter

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Ah, I see what you are saying.
If it breaks the 2 person mark, then it is not possible and is not marriage?
I think I get it now. I misunderstood the legal terms.
Edit:
Marriage has been defined constantly as the union between one man and one woman. By the same logic that changes it to a man and a man or vice versa, we could say that polygamy is just fine.
This wouldn't work, then. Anyways, how is saying same-sex marriage is fine imply that polygamy is? Are you saying gay marriage is backwards?
 

arrowhead

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he doesn't even tell us why polygamy is wrong, if it is at all. so interpreting what he said as people interpret the bible, he could very well be supporting gay marriage!
 

Pr0phetic

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I'm going to be completely honest, I don't support gay marriage, if you want to be together fine, but marriage? That's too wrong.
 

illinialex24

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uh, no because marriage can be redefined (as it has throughout history) as between two people

how would that be in any way harmful?
I am really starting to think you are one of the most intelligent if not the most intelligent poster on this board.

I'm going to be completely honest, I don't support gay marriage, if you want to be together fine, but marriage? That's too wrong.
Seriously how is it wrong? Its the same thing as straight marriage because they are biologically attracted to the same sex instead of different sexes from birth. This is like saying Black children shouldn't be able to go to school with White children because they have different skin colors. Both are biological.
 

Mewter

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I'm going to be completely honest, I don't support gay marriage, if you want to be together fine, but marriage? That's too wrong.
Hm? How is gay marriage "too wrong"? Going by that logic, people who are allergic to latex shouldn't be allowed rights.
 

illinialex24

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Hm? How is gay marriage "too wrong"? Going by that logic, people who are allergic to latex shouldn't be allowed rights.
Or people who have a different color of skin shouldn't have rights. Its the exact same thing, only you're not disgusted by allergic people or people with darker skin, but are disgusted by people actually enjoying themselves with someone of the same sex and wanting to have the same rights.
 

LordoftheMorning

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I would have to say I'm level 2. I oppose gay marriage on religious grounds, but I'm not going to take away their right to do what they want with their lives. If God doesn't interfere with free will, who am I to do so?
This, basically. It's very hypocritical to hate gays for their sins, when we are all sinners in some respect. I guess what's makes some angry is that they say it is not sinful, but those aren't my shoes.

However, you have to consider what it implies for the way social interaction will be in the future. Do I want to get mixed up by guys dating guys dating girls dating girls? Not really, no. There is no social standard for these sort of things, and things would be very convoluted for a while. Greek culture isn't something I'd want to emulate. Do I want guys hitting on me because I'm cute and they think I'm gay? (Well, this already has happened. (More than once.)) No, I don't. You would be redefining marriage, which brings into question "Why can't minors get married? That's violating their rights to deny them!" And then maybe I want to marry a gopher? It has the potential to be a slippery slope. EDIT: I really should read the above posts before I post myself. l=/ I should have figured that people as smart as you would have already discussed slippery slopes.:laugh: Slippery slopes are not always fallacies. For example, Marbury vs. Madison, back in the Jeffersonian presidency inadvertently allowed the Supreme Court to undermine the Congress and the The Executive by declaring a law unconstitutional. This wasn't so much of a "bad" slippery slope in my opinion, but it did open a floodgate. Jefferson agonized over this as soon as he realized what it implied. Bringing something into question, such as the definition of marriage, clears the way for even further, and sometimes unpleasant, changes.
he doesn't even tell us why polygamy is wrong, if it is at all. so interpreting what he said as people interpret the bible, he could very well be supporting gay marriage!
I almost forgot about polygamy! Not the strongest stance to take against this. Polygamy would have a negative effect on our society because it would undermine the significance of marriage and introduce inequalities between men and women by allowing one man to be married to many women. If it goes both ways, where does it end? You have a wife with two husbands, but those two husbands each have other wives? WTF? The two husbands don't love each other do they? O_o oh no.... So marriage becomes less and less valuable until it's little more than a legal consideration, if that.

So really, I watch gay marriage happen with a sort of unease, but I guess I really don't have any sort of a right to stop them. They do need to know, however, that is not sanctioned by Christian churches, and they have to acknowledge that.
 

arrowhead

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However, you have to consider what it implies for the way social interaction will be in the future. Do I want to get mixed up by guys dating guys dating girls dating girls? Not really, no. There is no social standard for these sort of things, and things would be very convoluted for a while.

so you not only oppose marriage of two people of the same sex, you don't want them dating either? wow. do you have any reason for this other than "cause it's not what i consider normal, so people shouldn't be allowed to do it"?

Do I want guys hitting on me because I'm cute and they think I'm gay? (Well, this already has happened. (More than once.)) No, I don't.
yeah, it's soo easy to blame the gay people. why don't you think about straight people hitting on gay people? should straight marriage not be allowed because of that? how does marriage have anything to do with hitting on people anyways?

You would be redefining marriage, which brings into question "Why can't minors get married? That's violating their rights to deny them!" And then maybe I want to marry a gopher?
we already have an age where we consider people adults. we can redefine marriage (oh no, it's happening AGAIN!) to be between two human adults. animals aren't people

It has the potential to be a slippery slope.
oh, so there's nothing wrong with gay marriage, but because people will take advantage of the situation to find a reason to complain, we should withhold the rights promised to homosexuals?

EDIT: I really should read the above posts before I post myself. l=/ I should have figured that people as smart as you would have already discussed slippery slopes.:laugh: Slippery slopes are not always fallacies. For example, Marbury vs. Madison, back in the Jeffersonian presidency inadvertently allowed the Supreme Court to undermine the Congress and the The Executive by declaring a law unconstitutional. This wasn't so much of a "bad" slippery slope in my opinion, but it did open a floodgate. Jefferson agonized over this as soon as he realized what it implied. Bringing something into question, such as the definition of marriage, clears the way for even further, and sometimes unpleasant, changes.
slippery slopes are always fallacies. they're cop-outs created so you don't have to answer the question: why should this be banned? it's the same logic as saying 50 years ago "******s shouldn't be equal to whites, or criminals will have to be considered equal too!"

I almost forgot about polygamy! Not the strongest stance to take against this. Polygamy would have a negative effect on our society because it would undermine the significance of marriage and introduce inequalities between men and women by allowing one man to be married to many women. If it goes both ways, where does it end? You have a wife with two husbands, but those two husbands each have other wives? WTF? The two husbands don't love each other do they? O_o oh no.... So marriage becomes less and less valuable until it's little more than a legal consideration, if that.
who are you to tell three consenting adults who they can or cannot marry? how is it unequal if all three people consent to marriage? why do you think homosexuals should not be able to marry ANYONE, or do you take back your claim that marriage should be between people who love each other? what about bisexuals, who can love both men and women? why do you think marriage HAS to be between two people to be significant? doesn't 3+ people all sharing something special mean anything significant?

So really, I watch gay marriage happen with a sort of unease, but I guess I really don't have any sort of a right to stop them.
you DO have the right to stop them. that's why it's so fuked up. all you need to do is vote, and two people who are promised the right to pursue happiness cannot exercise it; even though their marriage is not going to hurt ANYBODY

They do need to know, however, that is not sanctioned by Christian churches, and they have to acknowledge that.
it wil be by some
 

RDK

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we already have an age where we consider people adults. we can redefine marriage (oh no, it's happening AGAIN!) to be between two human adults. animals aren't people
But people are animals. :p

Sorry, had to be done. Everything else in your post was fine, though.
 

adumbrodeus

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However, you have to consider what it implies for the way social interaction will be in the future. Do I want to get mixed up by guys dating guys dating girls dating girls? Not really, no. There is no social standard for these sort of things, and things would be very convoluted for a while. Greek culture isn't something I'd want to emulate. Do I want guys hitting on me because I'm cute and they think I'm gay? (Well, this already has happened. (More than once.)) No, I don't. [/cplor]


Culture changes, it happens

You would be redefining marriage, which brings into question "Why can't minors get married? That's violating their rights to deny them!" And then maybe I want to marry a gopher? It has the potential to be a slippery slope. EDIT: I really should read the above posts before I post myself. l=/ I should have figured that people as smart as you would have already discussed slippery slopes.:laugh: Slippery slopes are not always fallacies. For example, Marbury vs. Madison, back in the Jeffersonian presidency inadvertently allowed the Supreme Court to undermine the Congress and the The Executive by declaring a law unconstitutional. This wasn't so much of a "bad" slippery slope in my opinion, but it did open a floodgate. Jefferson agonized over this as soon as he realized what it implied. Bringing something into question, such as the definition of marriage, clears the way for even further, and sometimes unpleasant, changes. I almost forgot about polygamy! Not the strongest stance to take against this. Polygamy would have a negative effect on our society because it would undermine the significance of marriage and introduce inequalities between men and women by allowing one man to be married to many women. If it goes both ways, where does it end? You have a wife with two husbands, but those two husbands each have other wives? WTF? The two husbands don't love each other do they? O_o oh no.... So marriage becomes less and less valuable until it's little more than a legal consideration, if that.
In general, slippery slopes are the arguments that do not justify the progression. I ask you, where is the justifacation for the projection? What makes you think that it will move on to polygomy? Also, what makes you think that there's something wrong with the state sanctioning polygomy.

As far as the state should be concerned, marriage IS merely a legal institution.


Realize also that Marbury v. Madison wasn't so much a slippery slope as a declaration of authority. The implications were there and obvious, there was no progression, it just was, and is.


So really, I watch gay marriage happen with a sort of unease, but I guess I really don't have any sort of a right to stop them. They do need to know, however, that is not sanctioned by Christian churches, and they have to acknowledge that.
Which is good, it's not something the church should be deciding.

However, recognize that not all Christian churches share your view, they have a right to officiate gay marriage if they desire.
 

LordoftheMorning

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Culture changes, it happens
Not always for the best, though.;)

Realize also that Marbury v. Madison wasn't so much a slippery slope as a declaration of authority. The implications were there and obvious, there was no progression, it just was, and is.
Oh... In that case, consider legalizing gay marriage as a declaration that any persons can be married. If you apply it to homosexuals, it would be discriminatory to not apply it to everyone else. This includes two or more members of any species of any gender at any age. Tell me how this will be a good thing.

so you not only oppose marriage of two people of the same sex, you don't want them dating either? wow. do you have any reason for this other than "cause it's not what i consider normal, so people shouldn't be allowed to do it"?
I neverrrrrrr said that! We're talking no distinction between friend and lover, male or female. I don't want to see that. I already have in my high school. It's not pretty and it's not a happy thing either.

yeah, it's soo easy to blame the gay people. why don't you think about straight people hitting on gay people? should straight marriage not be allowed because of that? how does marriage have anything to do with hitting on people anyways?

Err... well when you think about it, straight people are vastly the majority. Most people will assume that someone else is straight if their appearance is normal. That's just the way it's assumed.


we already have an age where we consider people adults. we can redefine marriage (oh no, it's happening AGAIN!) to be between two human adults. animals aren't people
What RDK said. And why does it matter that we have an age of adulthood? People below this age are still sentient, aren't they?

slippery slopes are always fallacies. they're cop-outs created so you don't have to answer the question: why should this be banned? it's the same logic as saying 50 years ago "******s shouldn't be equal to whites, or criminals will have to be considered equal too!"
Except blacks aren't inherently criminals.... Btw, the word always is usually a fallacy;). Why do you think some parents won't let a child off from punishment? Because they are worried that the child will say to himself "They didn't punish me so it's okay to keep doing what I'm doing", right? Slippery Slope alert!
Slippery Slopes do happen. The fallacy comes in when you assume they will go to the worst-case scenario. The logic used to justify gay marriage is just as applicable to justifying polygamy or incest or underage marriage. You prove my point:


who are you to tell three consenting adults who they can or cannot marry?(<=== Right there) how is it unequal if all three people consent to marriage? why do you think homosexuals should not be able to marry ANYONE, or do you take back your claim that marriage should be between people who love each other? what about bisexuals, who can love both men and women? why do you think marriage HAS to be between two people to be significant? doesn't 3+ people all sharing something special mean anything significant?
Now, who are you to tell a man and a consenting gopher that they can or cannot marry? According to you, we have no right to do this whatsoever. This is not a buffet. You can't take what you want and ignore the rest.

it wil be by some
Why would you say something like that? Is is spite? Are you telling me that you will pervade my belief system until we are forced to accept your views? This isn't an argument.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
What you're not getting is that the "original" intention of marriage (whatever that even means) is based solely on tradition, and it breaks down when you try and give reasons why it should only be between one man and one woman.

There's no reason why the definition can't be reworked to include two men or two women. The polygamy argument has nothing whatsoever to do with legalizing gay marriage. Stop using it.
 

aeghrur

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
2,513
Location
Minnesota
Not always for the best, though.;)
A lot of things aren't for the best, it's just that they happen. Do I like some of the new mindsets of this era? No. Do I accept it? Yes. =/

Oh... In that case, consider legalizing gay marriage as a declaration that any persons can be married. If you apply it to homosexuals, it would be discriminatory to not apply it to everyone else. This includes two or more members of any species of any gender at any age. Tell me how this will be a good thing.
No, no, that's concluding that marriage's sole purpose is to bind two people in "holy matrimony." But that's not the point. We're legalizing gay marriage so they can get their rights. Also, because two people married have a better chance of a stable economic foundation and thus a better chance of raising a kid well. Does the dog lose its rights if it's not married? No, of course not. Does a man lose his rights if he's not married to another that he loves? Yes, quite a bit. They even lose their rights if they get a civil union considering that's only for that state, not for the federal government, iirc. Now, on to the building/supporting a better family thing. A marriage allows a couple to combine their earnings and stuff, allowing for more economic stability and a better chance at raising a family. Sure, you may say "Gays are worse at parenting than normal parents." or "children deserve a man and a woman, not two men or two women," but I argue, are two homosexual parents better or no parents at all? Also, does a dog earn money or a living? No, so marrying a human and a dog doesn't do anything(under usual circumstances) to provide a better economic foundation. The same rule applies to kids before they're of age.
Finally, there's the issue of which types of discrimination should be allowed and which types shouldn't. Obviously, we should be allowed to discriminate an apple against an orange and stuff. This allows us to make our own decisions. Is discriminating a dog or a cow from a human allowed? Yes, that's why we have hamburgers. These types of discrimination are allowed, so we won't go nuts of discriminating that some dog can't marry their owner. Is age discrimination allowed? Under certain cases, yes. Children do not have some of their rights until they reach the age of majority. We're young, foolish, and if we allowed children these rights, it puts them into more danger than the benefits would be. Same with marriage, children marrying one another could be dangerous such as having sex too early. Does it have benefits? Well... no, not really. So, can we discriminate on the basis of age and species? Yes. Should we discriminate based upon their preferences? No, unless you want to say, you shouldn't be able to shop at Target because you like apples over oranges.



Err... well when you think about it, straight people are vastly the majority. Most people will assume that someone else is straight if their appearance is normal. That's just the way it's assumed.
And straight people will still be the majority simply because it allows the human race to survive, lol. That doesn't mean we should discriminate against gays though. They should be married because they are still grown adults and human beings. They deserve their rights.


What RDK said. And why does it matter that we have an age of adulthood? People below this age are still sentient, aren't they?
The damage caused by giving young people the rights to things such as driving, alcohol, and tobacco far outweighs the benefits, if any.

Except blacks aren't inherently criminals.... Btw, the word always is usually a fallacy;). Why do you think some parents won't let a child off from punishment? Because they are worried that the child will say to himself "They didn't punish me so it's okay to keep doing what I'm doing", right? Slippery Slope alert!
Slippery Slopes do happen. The fallacy comes in when you assume they will go to the worst-case scenario. The logic used to justify gay marriage is just as applicable to justifying polygamy or incest or underage marriage. You prove my point:
No, it's not, at all. Polygamy has no rights involved. Do you lose rights when you can't be married to more than one person? No. Do you take away people's rights when you say they can't marry a dog? No. Why would this slippery slope work? That guy was talking about love, not about rights. We're talking about the RIGHTS of PEOPLE. Are you seriously saying we should take away their rights because they would rather marry a man than a woman? Would you really take away a person's rights because they'd rather start a family with one gender than another?

Now, who are you to tell a man and a consenting gopher that they can or cannot marry? According to you, we have no right to do this whatsoever. This is not a buffet. You can't take what you want and ignore the rest.
Yes, you can. It's called the prejudice or discrimination or opinion. Call it what you want, lol, we can discriminate against one group and not against another. Yeah, that's right. Why? Because in one group, if we discriminate against then, we take away their RIGHTS, the rights that they deserve as the citizens of the United States of America. We can discriminate against an animal because it does not have the right to marriage, it does not help support a family's economic stability, and the gopher does not lose ANY rights should it NOT marry. Does this apply to two men? No.

Why would you say something like that? Is is spite? Are you telling me that you will pervade my belief system until we are forced to accept your views? This isn't an argument.
Your belief system doesn't matter in this debate. I don't care if your christian and you say, well God says gay marriage is wrong. America isn't a theocracy and religion and government do not influence one another. If you want to keep your opinion that gay marriage is wrong, I'm here to try and change it and others due to a logical debate. This is an argument, lol.

:093:
 

arrowhead

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
723
Location
under a rock
Oh... In that case, consider legalizing gay marriage as a declaration that any persons can be married. If you apply it to homosexuals, it would be discriminatory to not apply it to everyone else. This includes two or more members of any species of any gender at any age. Tell me how this will be a good thing.
no, it doesn't include two or more. not like more than two would be a bad thing anyways. i don't need to tell you it's a good thing because until something is demonstrated to be bad, it is neither good or bad, and should be allowed

I neverrrrrrr said that! We're talking no distinction between friend and lover, male or female. I don't want to see that. I already have in my high school. It's not pretty and it's not a happy thing either.
what are you talking about?



Err... well when you think about it, straight people are vastly the majority. Most people will assume that someone else is straight if their appearance is normal. That's just the way it's assumed.
ooh why don't we throw consideration of the minority totally out the window then? and there are plenty of "normal" homosexuals

What RDK said. And why does it matter that we have an age of adulthood? People below this age are still sentient, aren't they?
until they reach a certain age, people aren't able to think well. 18 is the somewhat arbitrary age where people are considered adults and have adult rights because they have the knowledge and the brainpower to consider the benefits and consequences of an action. everyone matures at different rates, but we chose 18 as the age for PRACTICAL reasons. the government can't go analyzing everyone's mental maturity with bad tests to consider when the person is an adult or not.

Except blacks aren't inherently criminals.... Btw, the word always is usually a fallacy;). Why do you think some parents won't let a child off from punishment? Because they are worried that the child will say to himself "They didn't punish me so it's okay to keep doing what I'm doing", right? Slippery Slope alert!
Slippery Slopes do happen. The fallacy comes in when you assume they will go to the worst-case scenario. The logic used to justify gay marriage is just as applicable to justifying polygamy or incest or underage marriage. You prove my point:
just as gay marriage isn't inherently wrong

your example isn't of a slippery slope. the kid did something wrong, so the consequence is a punishment. there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, so there should be no punishment.

Now, who are you to tell a man and a consenting gopher that they can or cannot marry? According to you, we have no right to do this whatsoever. This is not a buffet. You can't take what you want and ignore the rest.
there is no way for the gopher to give consent.

Why would you say something like that? Is is spite? Are you telling me that you will pervade my belief system until we are forced to accept your views? This isn't an argument.
no, it's the truth.

and i will attack your beliefs until you can adequately defend them.
 

LordoftheMorning

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
2,153
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
Either intentional or no, arrowhead, you're doing a lot of question dodging and strawmanning.

Oh... In that case, consider legalizing gay marriage as a declaration that any persons can be married. If you apply it to homosexuals, it would be discriminatory to not apply it to everyone else. This includes two or more members of any species of any gender at any age. Tell me how this will be a good thing.
no, it doesn't include two or more. not like more than two would be a bad thing anyways. i don't need to tell you it's a good thing because until something is demonstrated to be bad, it is neither good or bad, and should be allowed
-.- You're missing the point. The logic you are using can be used to justify a union between any number of any age of any gender people. I told you why polygamy is bad (check earlier post and refute if you wish), underage marriage can lead to bad decisions and an unhappy generation, other species..... well, come on really? I can tell you that homosexual marriage is immoral (depending on religious beliefs) and has the potential to overturn our entire social system (not depending on religious beliefs, and you still have to refute this). Apparently you didn't see it the first two times so I'll try again.
However, you have to consider what it implies for the way social interaction will be in the future. Do I want to get mixed up by guys dating guys dating girls dating girls? Not really, no. There is no social standard for these sort of things, and things would be very convoluted for a while. Greek culture isn't something I'd want to emulate. Do I want guys hitting on me because I'm cute and they think I'm gay? (Well, this already has happened. (More than once.)) No, I don't.
so you not only oppose marriage of two people of the same sex, you don't want them dating either? wow. do you have any reason for this other than "cause it's not what i consider normal, so people shouldn't be allowed to do it"?
I neverrrrrrr said that! We're talking no distinction between friend and lover, male or female. I don't want to see that. I already have in my high school. It's not pretty and it's not a happy thing either.
what are you talking about?
See what I said thar? You just strawmanned me by telling me that the only reason I said it's wrong is because "It's not what I think is normal so others can't do it", when in fact I offered a very credible disadvantage to gay marriage.

yeah, it's soo easy to blame the gay people. why don't you think about straight people hitting on gay people? should straight marriage not be allowed because of that? how does marriage have anything to do with hitting on people anyways?
Err... well when you think about it, straight people are vastly the majority. Most people will assume that someone else is straight if their appearance is normal. That's just the way it's assumed
ooh why don't we throw consideration of the minority totally out the window then? and there are plenty of "normal" homosexuals
I'm trying to explain to you why straight people will sometimes hit on strangers without finding out what their orientation is.
1. It's not very common
2. Most people you see walking down the street are straight.
3. Of the few people that do decide to hit on other people, most of the people they hit on are straight.
And that is why this assumption is made by so many people. It's an explanation. It does not explain why gay guys will just assume I am gay and start hitting on me, even if they have evidence that I am straight (haz girlfriend), and cause me a great deal of discomfort. And now AGAIN you misquote me and tell me that I'm advocating "throwing minorities out the window"? You're blowing this way out of proportion.


until they reach a certain age, people aren't able to think well.(You do know that homosexuality in males is sometimes caused by a lack of testosterone in one's system? This can be caused by acute stress or alcohol consumption while the mother is pregnant. Classifiable as a disorder or maybe "can't think well", wouldn't you say?) 18 is the somewhat arbitrary age where people are considered adults and have adult rights because they have the knowledge and the brainpower to consider the benefits and consequences of an action. everyone matures at different rates, but we chose 18 as the age for PRACTICAL reasons. the government can't go analyzing everyone's mental maturity with bad tests to consider when the person is an adult or not.
Which is why we have no right to say they can't! The government can't tell me that I'm not ready to get married because they're too buried in their bureaucracy to look at anyone specific! It's discrimination! I won't stand for it! This "We know what's best for you, even though we've never even met you" stance the government takes makes me sick!

These are the same type of arguments you might hear for gay marriage ain't they? Thus.... if you legalize gay marriage based on this argument, you have to legalize underage marriage as well. And polygamy, don't forget that. You can't walk on both sides of the street. It's contradictory to support gay marriage but not the other types of illegal marriages as well.


slippery slopes are always fallacies. they're cop-outs created so you don't have to answer the question: why should this be banned? it's the same logic as saying 50 years ago "******s shouldn't be equal to whites, or criminals will have to be considered equal too!"
Except blacks aren't inherently criminals.... Btw, the word always is usually a fallacy. Why do you think some parents won't let a child off from punishment? Because they are worried that the child will say to himself "They didn't punish me so it's okay to keep doing what I'm doing", right? Slippery Slope alert!
Slippery Slopes do happen. The fallacy comes in when you assume they will go to the worst-case scenario. The logic used to justify gay marriage is just as applicable to justifying polygamy or incest or underage marriage. You prove my point:
just as gay marriage isn't inherently wrong

your example isn't of a slippery slope. the kid did something wrong, so the consequence is a punishment. there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, so there should be no punishment.
Look at these arguments again...... I told you why you're slipper slope WAS a fallacy, and then you tried to apply it to my slippery slope. There's no link between not creating equality for blacks because then you'd need equality for criminals, and not legalizing gay marriage because then you'd have to legalize all marriages. You gave me an example, and then you tried to tell me that the reason that example is a fallacy is the reason my slippery slope is a fallacy? It's like you were waiting for me to argue against a slippery slope so you could steal my argument and use it on my own slippery slope. I don't think you would do that, though. This is a serious twisting of logic either way.

My example of a child being punished has nothing to do with gay marriage. It's an example. I'm trying to explain to you that slippery slopes are not always fallacies. If a child is not punished, parents fear that he will not learn the immorality of the action in question and will repeat it until it forms a habit. This is a slippery slope that is assumed by parents everywhere, and it's not illogical. Please stop trying to bend my arguments and put words in my mouth.

there is no way for the gopher to give consent.
Technical point. How about If a man owns a gopher and he loves it very much, (and he's not mistreating the gopher, then who are you to tell him that the two can or cannot marry? You didn't refute the argument. -.-

Or, all gophers aside, Who are you to tell two children that love each other very much that they can or cannot get married?

Or maybe Who are you to tell three consenting people that they can or cannot get married?

All three of these are stupid statements. There are good reasons why we can say that they can or cannot, just like gay marriage. The statements above use the very same logic that gay marriage advocates use, and I pointed out the fallacy by showing you what else you can do with it. You are being contradictory by not agreeing with the bold statements above.

They do need to know, however, that is not sanctioned by Christian churches, and they have to acknowledge that.
it wil be by some
Why would you say something like that? Is is spite? Are you telling me that you will pervade my belief system until we are forced to accept your views? This isn't an argument.
no, it's the truth.
and i will attack your beliefs until you can adequately defend them.
This is getting stupid. You can't argue that Christians think homosexual acts are moral. Stop trying to. -.- It's not a debate, which is why these are not arguments, which is why I will not be responding to anything else based on this quoteblock above unless it's actually relevant and actually makes a point.

I really couldn't let those go. I'll most to say later about some other posts (like aeghrur, who had some valid points I will need to address), but I'm tired and hungry and it's time for me to chill and play some smash. More tomorrow or this evening.
 

SuperBowser

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
1,331
Location
jolly old england. hohoho.
I can't believe you just said ''a gay guy hitting on me would be so uncomfortable'' and expect it to float as an argument.


Seriously?


And no, gay marriage is not and will never be the same as animals or children or paedophiles getting to marry what they want. It's called CONSENT. You shouldn't need a basic concept like that being spelt out to you...
 
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