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Fthrow -> dash attack. Then just dash attack a lot. Because dash attack is amazing.Question: Is there a reason do any of her throws OTHER than her down throw??
Want to combo? Down throw--->aerial(s)
Want to kill? Down throw--->aerial
Maybe I'm missing something about her specific match ups (e.g. certain throws better against fast fallers), but I've gotta say I see very little reason to do any of her throws other than D-throw. It's just too good.
It's pretty much that it's a death sentence off the stage. Hers and Toon Links are the only ones like this, and Toon Links at least bounces if it hits. Really, it just needs less distance. Her dair can currently travel from the highest platform on New Pork City to far enough below the ledge that you can barely tether the ledge. That's just too far without some mitigating factor.Just what is wrong with her dair? It makes a great move for getting to the ground to continue a combo after an up-b and a missed tech.
Well, there is also Sheik and Sonic.It's pretty much that it's a death sentence off the stage. Hers and Toon Links are the only ones like this, and Toon Links at least bounces if it hits. Really, it just needs less distance. Her dair can currently travel from the highest platform on New Pork City to far enough below the ledge that you can barely tether the ledge. That's just too far without some mitigating factor.
Theirs finish before they hit the killzone, and they have the height on their second jumps and upBs to get them back.Well, there is also Sheik and Sonic.
It's definitely still Falco. She still has like no approach on him, which is compounded by the new reflector nonsense Falco has, and then he combos the crap out of her on top of it. And it's not that he combos the crap out of her, it's that she has so few approach options, and the fact that one of the biggest things in the way of her approach is one of his best combo starters.I would motion that this thread have some match-up discussion. What do you guys think her worst match-up is?
Are you kidding? ZSS's throws are amazing now. There's definitely some massive rewards for grabbing people in B+. The thing is, you have to know when you can grab. Mix grab up with dash attack to get people for trying to shield your dash attack. Follow up Jab1 or dsmash with a grab, etc. There are plenty of safe ways to grab, now, and ZSS's follow-ups are amazing.I guess we play differently but I just think it's seriously not even worth it to grab with ZSS in B+, especially with the increasingly unbalanced risk/reward ratio to it. DA can be DI'd down and tech'd, I think. Bair can only be stringed twice or thrice and that's at very low %.
However, I do actually really enjoy nair. If I ever do get a grab, dthrow-nair3-fair is a really funny and unexpected combo 8D
Good ****. I really need to incorporate nair more into my gameplay. I use that move the least out of everything.However, I do actually really enjoy nair. If I ever do get a grab, dthrow-nair3-fair is a really funny and unexpected combo 8D
Dedede can't approach in the air, though. He still has abysmal air control and dair doesn't have enough range for him to space it safely as a poke. His dair is definitely good as a mix-up OOS, or for shield pressure once he's already closed the gap, but closing the gap is essential whenever you intend to use it, because approaching with it is not a good idea. Just as much as in vBrawl, Dedede's approach is still very ground based. His pokes are ground moves, he's fastest on the ground, and his most effective means of gaining a positional advantage is off of his grab. I play DDD in B+, so it's not like I'm talking about him without knowing what I'm talking about.****it, he did it again. I was just about to put these on the Link+ boards.
@ph00tbag: Dedede isn't all about grabs anymore. He has an OK air game, better than what it was in regular Brawl, mainly because of his Dair, which combos into many moves. You just gotta follow their DI. It's easily punished, however, so it kinda evens out. I admit that Dedede Vs. ZSS is in her favor, only because she has a blast comboing him. However, Dedede is still a tank. We live longer and kill easier, and can actually combo into a kill move. Imagine that....
Yea i had problems with shiek in vbrawl. Shouldn't be any different in brawl+ where shiek is even better.Sheik wasn't exactly a good match for her in vBrawl, either.
Well, I can understand keeping some of the stall-then-fall properties. I like the move without them, but I only ever considered it a pipe dream. But I'm definitely with Ryoko on shortening the falling time and buffing the damage. Make no mistake; the move needs to be fixed. It is by an insane margin the worst dair in vBrawl (only Bowser's comes halfway there), and it only got slightly better in B+. If a move like that doesn't need to be fixed, you might as well ask what the whole purpose of this project is.
By the same logic we might as well buff MK's utilt and Diddy's usmash. Just because they are bad moves, doesn't mean they should be "fixed" when the character is already good. I play ZSS a bit for fun and play against somebody who mains her a lot, and I would say she is already very close to if not guarenteed top 10, and therefore not in need of any more buffs without trade-offs in return. Buffing dsmash, grab, and side-b is plenty already.I agree with this.
Despite my considerable bias, I really am trying to let everyone reach a consensus on what should be done to the move. I mention the removal of the stall properties as an example of how far PSA can go towards changing a move's properties. Like ph00t says though, the move needs fixing. Badly. Ideas on what should be done would be much appreciated.
Why does everyone keep saying MK's utilt is bad? Do you realize how many characters could use a move with that much range, with hitboxes that last that long, and that locks, to boot? It's only bad relative to MK. And Diddy's usmash is only bad in the sense that ZSS's fsmash is bad: he just has better options most of the time.By the same logic we might as well buff MK's utilt and Diddy's usmash. Just because they are bad moves, doesn't mean they should be "fixed" when the character is already good. I play ZSS a bit for fun and play against somebody who mains her a lot, and I would say she is already very close to if not guarenteed top 10, and therefore not in need of any more buffs without trade-offs in return. Buffing dsmash, grab, and side-b is plenty already.
I approve this powerful post.ZSS is ridiculously good already... she doesn't need any buffs. A bad move does not make for a bad character by any means (see Fox's d-tilt... which isn't just bad relative to Fox). The fact that she can be juggled from below is a weakness.
Well, MK's u-tilt doesn't do much damage, has a very narrow hitbox, and can't really do much other than maybe hit into itself once or twice. There are a lot of characters with way better u-tilts...I can't really think of any that would say are straight up worse than MK's other than like, Ganon's. Although it is a bit hard to rate the move when the rest of MK's moves are so amazing.Why does everyone keep saying MK's utilt is bad? Do you realize how many characters could use a move with that much range, with hitboxes that last that long, and that locks, to boot? It's only bad relative to MK. And Diddy's usmash is only bad in the sense that ZSS's fsmash is bad: he just has better options most of the time.
I do agree with her being weak from below, but I would call this one of her few character weaknesses like WheelOfFish said. What else holds her back? A bad short hop? She hardly needs a good one, her tilts are good enough to cover that up. She has a reasonable approach, great defense, nice combos, great mobility. Don't say recovery... her high double-jump and down-b and semi-floatiness already equal the recoveries of a decent selection of characters (Oli, Ivy, DK, Ike, Marth, Mario, Bowser, Ganon, Link, Diddy, and Wolf off the top of my head). Throw in a wall jump and two repeatable tethers, and she isn't so bad at all. Her grab is bad, but that just got sped up, and now you are also buffing the dsmash stun, which basically = buffing her grab.ZSS's dair is genuinely a terrible move, relative to all other moves in the game, and there's no option that serves the same purpose. Dair is the primary reason you're wrong about ZSS being top 10. Once ZSS is above her opponent, she's toast. She has three options: airdodge, Flip Jump, dair. None of these provide any kind of protection below her, and are unbelievably easy to punish.
And lol at buffing side B. That move has been so nerfed, it's not even funny. I've already expressed my opinion that the gap in the hitboxes doesn't need to be fixed, so instead, why can't dair be less dumb?
I would agree to this. I never was for the fsmash buff and even with it added i hardly ever use it as zss has and always will be a aerial ko char. I honestly forget i can land a ko with fsmash. Making fsmash back to normal and then do whatever yall want to do with dair has my vote.How about this: the buff to fsmash was, and still is arguably, unnecessary. Return fsmash to what it was, including the rear hitbox, then shorten dair. Ultimately, fsmash was only improved in that it provided a best option out of dsmash, but now it's back to bair, which is weaker than the buffed fsmash. In effect, dsmash is nerfed. Is this acceptable? I'm serious when I say that ZSS needs her dair fixed more than she needs her fsmash fixed.
I think that is definitely a reasonable proposition that should be tested. I am still a bit hesitant, as it is still a buff to one of her key weaknesses at the expense of a nerf of a move that nobody really uses much, but it's definitely a start. But what about all that other stuff that was being talked about, like more stun for dsmash, and something about fixing the hitbox of side-b?That a weakness to people below her balances ZSS, I won't deny. But I still think that shortening dair makes it a more viable (if situational) option, as opposed to the completely unviable option that it is now. It wouldn't make ZSS all that much better; she just wouldn't be utterly and completely helpless. (I'm serious, ZSS is about as bad when above her opponent as Snake.)
How about this: the buff to fsmash was, and still is arguably, unnecessary. Return fsmash to what it was, including the rear hitbox, then shorten dair. Ultimately, fsmash was only improved in that it provided a best option out of dsmash, but now it's back to bair, which is weaker than the buffed fsmash. In effect, dsmash is nerfed. Is this acceptable? I'm serious when I say that ZSS needs her dair fixed more than she needs her fsmash fixed.