Brawl+ ZSS

[ph00tbag]

I told NC-Echo we should have been recording the last time we played this game, but we never did. I had some really good stuff. If we do anything in the future, I'll be sure to get everyone to agree to record.

 

[Vaul]

Question: Is there a reason do any of her throws OTHER than her down throw??
Want to combo? Down throw--->aerial(s)
Want to kill? Down throw--->aerial
Maybe I'm missing something about her specific match ups (e.g. certain throws better against fast fallers), but I've gotta say I see very little reason to do any of her throws other than D-throw. It's just too good.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It's all about positioning. If you get a grab close to the edge, for example, you won't be to run and chase properly into an aerial if they DI the throw away. So Fthrow so they wind up flying at a bad angle. Bthrow is good for getting them off the edge to edgeguard. Uthrow is good for... just about nothing, but she already has the throws she needs to get the job done. Every character has a throw that is probably 100x more useful than the rest of them.

 

[ph00tbag]

Question: Is there a reason do any of her throws OTHER than her down throw??
Want to combo? Down throw--->aerial(s)
Want to kill? Down throw--->aerial
Maybe I'm missing something about her specific match ups (e.g. certain throws better against fast fallers), but I've gotta say I see very little reason to do any of her throws other than D-throw. It's just too good.

Fthrow -> dash attack. Then just dash attack a lot. Because dash attack is amazing.

Bthrow into Plasma Whip is hilarious, but far from guaranteed.

Just what is wrong with her dair? It makes a great move for getting to the ground to continue a combo after an up-b and a missed tech.

It's pretty much that it's a death sentence off the stage. Hers and Toon Links are the only ones like this, and Toon Links at least bounces if it hits. Really, it just needs less distance. Her dair can currently travel from the highest platform on New Pork City to far enough below the ledge that you can barely tether the ledge. That's just too far without some mitigating factor.

 

[Nybb]

It's pretty much that it's a death sentence off the stage. Hers and Toon Links are the only ones like this, and Toon Links at least bounces if it hits. Really, it just needs less distance. Her dair can currently travel from the highest platform on New Pork City to far enough below the ledge that you can barely tether the ledge. That's just too far without some mitigating factor.

Well, there is also Sheik and Sonic.

I'm not sure if they can adjust the distance it goes. I think that the best thing they would be able to do would be to just make it hit harder or spike or something. However, I don't think she really needs this. She is really solid all around and borderline top ten IMO.

U-air is too good. Zamus has the 64 Falcon signature combo: Grab > throw > u-air x 1000 > up-B

I would motion that this thread have some match-up discussion. What do you guys think her worst match-up is?

 

[ph00tbag]

Well, there is also Sheik and Sonic.

Theirs finish before they hit the killzone, and they have the height on their second jumps and upBs to get them back.

Ultimately, though, it's not like ZSS needed any buffs. She's an incredible character as is, and really versatile in a number of situations.

I would motion that this thread have some match-up discussion. What do you guys think her worst match-up is?

It's definitely still Falco. She still has like no approach on him, which is compounded by the new reflector nonsense Falco has, and then he combos the crap out of her on top of it. And it's not that he combos the crap out of her, it's that she has so few approach options, and the fact that one of the biggest things in the way of her approach is one of his best combo starters.

 

[Roxas215]

Umm zss pwns dedede. That is all!(vids shortly lol)

I think falco kinda ***** zss though. Not only can falco reflect the armor but once those are gone zss really has no safe approach to falco. Added to the fact that the stun barely works now your only safe bet is to try to land a dltilt to a couple uairs and then run away and try again. It's really a uphill battle for zss the whole match.

 

[ph00tbag]

If you can get a grab on Falco at low percent, dthrow -> dsmash is a good bet. Generally, if you can get a guaranteed dsmash, go for it. Never pass up the opportunity for combos on Falco, because starting up anything against him will be hell.

And yes, ZSS beats the **** out of DDD. She basically has better combos, and is even harder for him to catch now than she is in vBrawl. And since DDD is still pretty much all about getting a grab off, he's going to have a hard time against ZSS, who will be jumping around a lot just out of range.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

ZSS is really great and people are right when they say that hitstun is what she truly needed. However, she still has a big weakness and it's approaching. DA is obvious as hell and I'm pretty sure Dazlock doesn't work in B+ so it's pretty much without uses unless it's the the traditional DA-utilt combo which is also obvious as hell. As the rest of the cast's moves got sped up so they can approach better, ZSS appears even more mediocre in this aspect. It's really easy to keep her at bay because she still suffers from combos despite her floatiness.

What I do right now is either DCdtilt or approach from the air with a SHFFuair which works pretty nicely as you can easily get 40% from an early game uair string. It's still a big problem because her priority on those moves isn't the best and she can easily be clanked and outdamaged. Just be wary of this, ZSS+ers.

 

[ph00tbag]

Uair, nair, bair, DC dtilt, dash grab and dash attack are all approaches. Knowing how to mix them up is vital to being able to approach with ZSS. Dash attack is actually still an amazing move. It legitimately combos into just about anything depending on percent, and can be followed up with jab to interrupt most shield grabs, making it really difficult to punish. Jab -> grab works now, so really, whatever you use to close the gap, jab is a good thing to follow up with. Utilt is another good follow up, as it leads to uair combos.

And ZSS is actually not all that floaty. Her fall speed was increased from vBrawl and she was only so floaty to begin with, so she's about middle of the road on fall speed now. She's certainly still easy to combo, though.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I guess we play differently but I just think it's seriously not even worth it to grab with ZSS in B+, especially with the increasingly unbalanced risk/reward ratio to it. DA can be DI'd down and tech'd, I think. Bair can only be stringed twice or thrice and that's at very low %.

However, I do actually really enjoy nair. If I ever do get a grab, dthrow-nair3-fair is a really funny and unexpected combo 8D

 

[ph00tbag]

I guess we play differently but I just think it's seriously not even worth it to grab with ZSS in B+, especially with the increasingly unbalanced risk/reward ratio to it. DA can be DI'd down and tech'd, I think. Bair can only be stringed twice or thrice and that's at very low %.

However, I do actually really enjoy nair. If I ever do get a grab, dthrow-nair3-fair is a really funny and unexpected combo 8D

Are you kidding? ZSS's throws are amazing now. There's definitely some massive rewards for grabbing people in B+. The thing is, you have to know when you can grab. Mix grab up with dash attack to get people for trying to shield your dash attack. Follow up Jab1 or dsmash with a grab, etc. There are plenty of safe ways to grab, now, and ZSS's follow-ups are amazing.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I'm not trying to be rude but I just don't really see the point of grabbing with ZSS. The same followups from a dthrow can be achieved by a FF'd uair and with a lot more reliability and with a 4% advantage. Dsmash's stun certainly doesn't last as long as it did in vbrawl and a grab is not guaranteed in any way, and I've never seen Jab1 give enough hitstun to allow for a grab. While grabs do ensure the follow-up, the critical flaw is in getting the grab.

I also never doubted ZSS's amazing follow-ups and she certainly has many of them. She can always string her aerials and they kill just fine when they can't be combo'd anymore. She certainly has a force to be reckoned with. Dsmash isn't even really needed anymore as she can land bairs and fairs with ease. I wouldn't call her a glass cannon as she can play very defensively and still succeed but she certainly is a fast-paced and risk/reward kind of character when played in such a way.

 

[Roxas215]

While zss grabs are extremley good the problem is actually landing the grab. In vbrawl if u missed a grab u might just get thrown or get hit by one smash attack. In brawl+ if u miss a grab exepct a 30-40% combo done to u. Her grabs are very risk/reward type. But she is **** near guaranteed a combo off of one grab. Espcially against the heavies and ff's

However, I do actually really enjoy nair. If I ever do get a grab, dthrow-nair3-fair is a really funny and unexpected combo 8D

Good ****. I really need to incorporate nair more into my gameplay. I use that move the least out of everything.

Anyway here are the vids i promised. I lost 2 of them but they still good matches. Some matches i play extremely offensive and some i play defensive a little. Zss can be played both ways depending on who u fighting.

Phillyrider (ZSS) Vs TUSM (DDD) Brawl+ 4.1b
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BZQViAS4kw

Phillyrider(Zss) Vs TUSM (Link) Brawl 4.1b
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSvhRRX0ooI

Phillyrider(Zss) Vs TUSM (Link) Brawl 4.1b 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6xoOhH2NHQ

Phillyrider(Zss) Vs TUSM (Link) Brawl 4.1b 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aihqxtBpbxM

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

****it, he did it again. I was just about to put these on the Link+ boards.

@ph00tbag: Dedede isn't all about grabs anymore. He has an OK air game, better than what it was in regular Brawl, mainly because of his Dair, which combos into many moves. You just gotta follow their DI. It's easily punished, however, so it kinda evens out. I admit that Dedede Vs. ZSS is in her favor, only because she has a blast comboing him. However, Dedede is still a tank. We live longer and kill easier, and can actually combo into a kill move. Imagine that....

 

[Kaitou Ace]

That's a good ZSS you've got there. Especially considering Link's buffs, he gives ZSS a lot of trouble, a lot more than people would expect. Personally for Link, one of the best approaches is a SHFF'd Uair. Firstly, if you're close enough, it'll autocancel which means you can follow up with ease. The reason why Uair is so good because it comes out on Frame 4 which means you'll have the frame advantage over a lot of what Link can dish out. Once you have them in the air, it's obvious you can uair him for around 30 more % and then finish it off with a Bair.

You should also use ftilt in the early %s because it trips and for ZSS, any opportunity to land a free combo starter is very well appreciated. You also need to use Utilt OoS more often because it's Frame 3 which also means you'll have the frame advantage over a lot of Link's attacks. You can also connect with a second Utilt in the early %s.

For Neutral B, I've found that it's so much more useful when it's wavebounced because your opponent never expects it. Try doing this when you're retreating this on stage as your opponent will most likely follow you. A SHwavebounced neutral B is there to bite them in the butt and you can cleanly Uair from there. Great ZSS, overall.

 

[ph00tbag]

****it, he did it again. I was just about to put these on the Link+ boards.

@ph00tbag: Dedede isn't all about grabs anymore. He has an OK air game, better than what it was in regular Brawl, mainly because of his Dair, which combos into many moves. You just gotta follow their DI. It's easily punished, however, so it kinda evens out. I admit that Dedede Vs. ZSS is in her favor, only because she has a blast comboing him. However, Dedede is still a tank. We live longer and kill easier, and can actually combo into a kill move. Imagine that....

Dedede can't approach in the air, though. He still has abysmal air control and dair doesn't have enough range for him to space it safely as a poke. His dair is definitely good as a mix-up OOS, or for shield pressure once he's already closed the gap, but closing the gap is essential whenever you intend to use it, because approaching with it is not a good idea. Just as much as in vBrawl, Dedede's approach is still very ground based. His pokes are ground moves, he's fastest on the ground, and his most effective means of gaining a positional advantage is off of his grab. I play DDD in B+, so it's not like I'm talking about him without knowing what I'm talking about.

I guess the main point is that ZSS outranges DDD besides just out-comboing him, and he doesn't have a great many effective approaches on her.

 

[Vaul]

As much as I hate to admit it....I'm finding the Sheik matchup to be very, very challenging. It may be kinda close, but I don't see what ZSS has in her favor here. Aggressive sheiks (the good sheiks) make it their mission to get in too close for comfort and grab you, making ZSS's spacing game much more brief in duration than desired. Sheiks Ftilt with its disjointed hitbox and ludicrous speed/combo game are absolutely brutal; shieldgrabbing with ZSS is now MUCH less of a viable option in Brawl+ than it already was in vBrawl (ontop of the horrendous lag afterwards, it's just so god**** slow coming out). Crouching/dtilt seems to be the best defensive option...but that's pretty much negated when Sheik approaches with nair or SHFFL'd fair.
Please don't take any of this for complaining...I'm just pointing out some of my personal observations/problems with the matchup. I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong here.
In other news....Down-B+A continues to own souls....

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Sheik wasn't exactly a good match for her in vBrawl, either.

 

[Roxas215]

Sheik wasn't exactly a good match for her in vBrawl, either.

Yea i had problems with shiek in vbrawl. Shouldn't be any different in brawl+ where shiek is even better.

 

[ph00tbag]

Sheik should be even tougher now than in vBrawl, actually. Sheik can already get in past ZSS's defenses pretty easily, and now she, like anyone can combo the crap out of ZSS once she gets going. And ZSS's recovery is a bit easier to gimp in B+, and Sheik already had an easy time of gimping ZSS in vBrawl.

 

[Yingyay]

XD I main sheik and told my friend to use sheik against me using ZSS and had trouble. And he doesnt even use sheik at all.

 

[ph00tbag]

Maybe Sheik isn't as horrible as I thought. Before, I didn't know how to combo Sheik in B+, but I've since figured out how, and I think that with some of B+'s changes, the primary reason that Sheik beat ZSS is now less prevalent.

In Brawl, Sheik beat ZSS because ZSS couldn't camp long distance because of needles, but couldn't space in mid-range because of DACUS, dash grab and dash attack, all of which beat Plasma Whip hard. So ZSS had to close the gap and fight up close. Unfortunately, ZSS's up close game in vBrawl is nothing to write home about.

But in Brawl+, ZSS has a very important buff that tips the scale probably to even, if slightly in Sheik's favor for this match-up: jab3 can't be PSed. This means that ZSS has a 1-frame combo starter to give her a slight edge in the close range fighting.

Now, this doesn't mean you should rely on jab, but it gives you a pretty decent panic button if nothing else is working quite as planned. Get Sheik in the air and combo her, then beat her by out-KOing her. You can KO much sooner than Sheik can.

 

[Yeroc]

I think it's time to dredge this up again. With the advent of Project Smash Attacks, many possibilities have come to light, for many aspects of Brawl+. The one particular aspect I thought of immediately for ZSS was the removal of that abysmal (imo) stall then fall dair. I would think this is something that the community of players should decide if it's something they're interested in investigating as a possibility. I have some initial ideas, but I first ought to see if it's something you guys want or you prefer the way dair works now (I really don't like it, so I'm a little biased).

PS - I've already fixed the dsmash stun time and the gaps in the plasma whip. They will show up in the next Brawl+ release. The holes in the grab boxes and this dair change are potentially my next 2 projects.

 

[ph00tbag]

Woohoo for fixing holes in the grab, and woohoo for fixing dair. Gaps in Plasma Whip are totally unnecessary, though.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

There's nothing really wrong with her Dair, honestly. If you really want to "fix" it, you need only buff the existing aspects. Less time spent falling, more damage on the move, higher angle on the second KB, etc.

 

[Roxas215]

There isn't anything wrong with her dair.

Good stuff on the grab fixes though.

 

[ph00tbag]

Well, I can understand keeping some of the stall-then-fall properties. I like the move without them, but I only ever considered it a pipe dream. But I'm definitely with Ryoko on shortening the falling time and buffing the damage. Make no mistake; the move needs to be fixed. It is by an insane margin the worst dair in vBrawl (only Bowser's comes halfway there), and it only got slightly better in B+. If a move like that doesn't need to be fixed, you might as well ask what the whole purpose of this project is.

 

[Yeroc]

I agree with this.

Despite my considerable bias, I really am trying to let everyone reach a consensus on what should be done to the move. I mention the removal of the stall properties as an example of how far PSA can go towards changing a move's properties. Like ph00t says though, the move needs fixing. Badly. Ideas on what should be done would be much appreciated.

 

[Viquey]

I actually kinda like the stall-then-fall, since it can stop you completely mid-air when you use it while you still have upward momentum. Good for throwing off juggle traps if nothing else. XD

But I like the idea of less fall time. accidentally dairing to your death SUCKS. So if it was possible to cancel it or something, at least... that'd be better. Heck, maybe even make the fall so small it's practically nonexistent, so it's more of a powerful downward kick (although that's not too different from removing the stall-then-fall altogether, I guess...).

And I'm tempted to say make it a more powerful/viable spike, but that probably wouldn't be necessary. Would be awesome though.

Also, I'm semi-new to the B+ boards. There's a strong and growing B+ scene in my area, so I need to learn and practice up moar. I'm already doing fairly well I think, but I don't know any B+ specific combos or anything yet. So hi~

 

[Roxas215]

w/e i dont main zss she my secondary. She is already a godly char. If yall want to make the move better go for it. It doesn't need fixing though. The move is fine.


Anyway new zss vid. Let me know what u think

Phillyrider(Zss) Vs Leafgreen386(Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_FIiWcrTvA

 

[Viquey]

yeah, I don't really care either way. With less landing lag, it's already 10x less terrible than it was, so yeah. XD Although less fall time DOES have my support, if it's being considered.

Anyway. Awesome vid. XD Love the neutral b stun to fair kill at like 2:20 ish. Fun fun~

Hopefully I'll have some vids up soon, too, but IDK. Might not have caught any good ones. >.<

Also this thread is too deeeaad. :<

 

[Nybb]

Well, I can understand keeping some of the stall-then-fall properties. I like the move without them, but I only ever considered it a pipe dream. But I'm definitely with Ryoko on shortening the falling time and buffing the damage. Make no mistake; the move needs to be fixed. It is by an insane margin the worst dair in vBrawl (only Bowser's comes halfway there), and it only got slightly better in B+. If a move like that doesn't need to be fixed, you might as well ask what the whole purpose of this project is.

I agree with this.

Despite my considerable bias, I really am trying to let everyone reach a consensus on what should be done to the move. I mention the removal of the stall properties as an example of how far PSA can go towards changing a move's properties. Like ph00t says though, the move needs fixing. Badly. Ideas on what should be done would be much appreciated.

By the same logic we might as well buff MK's utilt and Diddy's usmash. Just because they are bad moves, doesn't mean they should be "fixed" when the character is already good. I play ZSS a bit for fun and play against somebody who mains her a lot, and I would say she is already very close to if not guarenteed top 10, and therefore not in need of any more buffs without trade-offs in return. Buffing dsmash, grab, and side-b is plenty already.

 

[ph00tbag]

By the same logic we might as well buff MK's utilt and Diddy's usmash. Just because they are bad moves, doesn't mean they should be "fixed" when the character is already good. I play ZSS a bit for fun and play against somebody who mains her a lot, and I would say she is already very close to if not guarenteed top 10, and therefore not in need of any more buffs without trade-offs in return. Buffing dsmash, grab, and side-b is plenty already.

Why does everyone keep saying MK's utilt is bad? Do you realize how many characters could use a move with that much range, with hitboxes that last that long, and that locks, to boot? It's only bad relative to MK. And Diddy's usmash is only bad in the sense that ZSS's fsmash is bad: he just has better options most of the time.

ZSS's dair is genuinely a terrible move, relative to all other moves in the game, and there's no option that serves the same purpose. Dair is the primary reason you're wrong about ZSS being top 10. Once ZSS is above her opponent, she's toast. She has three options: airdodge, Flip Jump, dair. None of these provide any kind of protection below her, and are unbelievably easy to punish.

And lol at buffing side B. That move has been so nerfed, it's not even funny. I've already expressed my opinion that the gap in the hitboxes doesn't need to be fixed, so instead, why can't dair be less dumb?

 

[WheelOfFish]

ZSS is ridiculously good already... she doesn't need any buffs. A bad move does not make for a bad character by any means (see Fox's d-tilt... which isn't just bad relative to Fox). The fact that she can be juggled from below is a weakness.

 

[Roxas215]

ZSS is ridiculously good already... she doesn't need any buffs. A bad move does not make for a bad character by any means (see Fox's d-tilt... which isn't just bad relative to Fox). The fact that she can be juggled from below is a weakness.

I approve this powerful post.

 

[Nybb]

Why does everyone keep saying MK's utilt is bad? Do you realize how many characters could use a move with that much range, with hitboxes that last that long, and that locks, to boot? It's only bad relative to MK. And Diddy's usmash is only bad in the sense that ZSS's fsmash is bad: he just has better options most of the time.

Well, MK's u-tilt doesn't do much damage, has a very narrow hitbox, and can't really do much other than maybe hit into itself once or twice. There are a lot of characters with way better u-tilts...I can't really think of any that would say are straight up worse than MK's other than like, Ganon's. Although it is a bit hard to rate the move when the rest of MK's moves are so amazing.

And no, Diddy's u-smash is just straight up bad lol. It basically never links, popping people out with like single-digit damage, and leaving them able to act while Diddy is still spinning around. Even when the strong hit does connect, it has like no killing power...I'm pretty sure his u-tilt would kill earlier or at a similar percent.

ZSS's dair is genuinely a terrible move, relative to all other moves in the game, and there's no option that serves the same purpose. Dair is the primary reason you're wrong about ZSS being top 10. Once ZSS is above her opponent, she's toast. She has three options: airdodge, Flip Jump, dair. None of these provide any kind of protection below her, and are unbelievably easy to punish.

And lol at buffing side B. That move has been so nerfed, it's not even funny. I've already expressed my opinion that the gap in the hitboxes doesn't need to be fixed, so instead, why can't dair be less dumb?

I do agree with her being weak from below, but I would call this one of her few character weaknesses like WheelOfFish said. What else holds her back? A bad short hop? She hardly needs a good one, her tilts are good enough to cover that up. She has a reasonable approach, great defense, nice combos, great mobility. Don't say recovery... her high double-jump and down-b and semi-floatiness already equal the recoveries of a decent selection of characters (Oli, Ivy, DK, Ike, Marth, Mario, Bowser, Ganon, Link, Diddy, and Wolf off the top of my head). Throw in a wall jump and two repeatable tethers, and she isn't so bad at all. Her grab is bad, but that just got sped up, and now you are also buffing the dsmash stun, which basically = buffing her grab.

ZSS is definitely not overpowered by any means. I feel that she is at a really good balance level as of the current version.

 

[ph00tbag]

That a weakness to people below her balances ZSS, I won't deny. But I still think that shortening dair makes it a more viable (if situational) option, as opposed to the completely unviable option that it is now. It wouldn't make ZSS all that much better; she just wouldn't be utterly and completely helpless. (I'm serious, ZSS is about as bad when above her opponent as Snake.)

How about this: the buff to fsmash was, and still is arguably, unnecessary. Return fsmash to what it was, including the rear hitbox, then shorten dair. Ultimately, fsmash was only improved in that it provided a best option out of dsmash, but now it's back to bair, which is weaker than the buffed fsmash. In effect, dsmash is nerfed. Is this acceptable? I'm serious when I say that ZSS needs her dair fixed more than she needs her fsmash fixed.

 

[Roxas215]

How about this: the buff to fsmash was, and still is arguably, unnecessary. Return fsmash to what it was, including the rear hitbox, then shorten dair. Ultimately, fsmash was only improved in that it provided a best option out of dsmash, but now it's back to bair, which is weaker than the buffed fsmash. In effect, dsmash is nerfed. Is this acceptable? I'm serious when I say that ZSS needs her dair fixed more than she needs her fsmash fixed.

I would agree to this. I never was for the fsmash buff and even with it added i hardly ever use it as zss has and always will be a aerial ko char. I honestly forget i can land a ko with fsmash. Making fsmash back to normal and then do whatever yall want to do with dair has my vote.

 

[Nybb]

That a weakness to people below her balances ZSS, I won't deny. But I still think that shortening dair makes it a more viable (if situational) option, as opposed to the completely unviable option that it is now. It wouldn't make ZSS all that much better; she just wouldn't be utterly and completely helpless. (I'm serious, ZSS is about as bad when above her opponent as Snake.)

How about this: the buff to fsmash was, and still is arguably, unnecessary. Return fsmash to what it was, including the rear hitbox, then shorten dair. Ultimately, fsmash was only improved in that it provided a best option out of dsmash, but now it's back to bair, which is weaker than the buffed fsmash. In effect, dsmash is nerfed. Is this acceptable? I'm serious when I say that ZSS needs her dair fixed more than she needs her fsmash fixed.

I think that is definitely a reasonable proposition that should be tested. I am still a bit hesitant, as it is still a buff to one of her key weaknesses at the expense of a nerf of a move that nobody really uses much, but it's definitely a start. But what about all that other stuff that was being talked about, like more stun for dsmash, and something about fixing the hitbox of side-b?