Brawl+ ZSS

[GHNeko]

Also, you might try holding A if he's approaching with Raptor Boost.

That is until auto jabs go poof

 

[SymphonicSage12]

the point really isn't that autojabs are broken or need to be changed. It's the fact that his raptor boost is outprioritized by a jab.

 

[Yeroc]

It always has been though, so that's ok. And it's not like it's some great injustice right now anyway >_>.

 

[ph00tbag]

That is until auto jabs go poof

That would be dumb. They are not OP or unbalanced.

 

[GHNeko]

But they grant more control to the player. <_<

It's not really dumb. Hell its not dumb at all.

 

[ph00tbag]

But they grant more control to the player. <_<

I'm flabbergasted that you think more control is something to be done away with.

 

[GHNeko]

Wait what? What do you mean by that? Autojabs give less control to the player.

 

[BRLNK88]

All good tips, but I think I should definitely use more dtilt.
None of my mains have much use for dtilt so its not instinctive for me.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

When should I Nair? I know I'm not doing it enough.

 

[ph00tbag]

Wait what? What do you mean by that? Autojabs give less control to the player.

By all means, explain to me how. My understanding is that autojabs give you a whole extra option that doesn't exist if you can't hold down A to access it. You have two options: tap A multiple times to access the natural combo, or gain greater control over its speed if you're hitting your opponent, or hold A to get a hitbox coming out every 7 frames or so that can counter many short ranged offensive attacks (including Phantasm), or it can give you a full natural combo if you hit your opponent. You can switch between these two options seamlessly if you just learn how to control it.

What you want to do removes autojab as a defensive option. That is is no way shape or form giving the player more control; a player who has properly learned how to use the feature of the Brawl engine will in fact have less options once that change is complete. I'm at a loss as to how you would compensate for this by adding control for the player.

When should I Nair? I know I'm not doing it enough.

If you space it right, you can use it against shield as an approach, because it's decently safe against most characters, especially if you follow up with dtilt or jab. If you hit, nair is an excellent combo starter. You can also use nair defensively by retreating with it. If you do it defensively, use it with a jump, because that'll put most opponents below you, and you can knock them away.

 

[CloneHat]

Auto jab doesn't make sense, plain and simple. You don't hold a button to make any attack repeat over and over. You PRESS THE **** BUTTON.

Auto jabs make blocking projectiles and other **** you do with them overly simple (ever heard of TIMING?) and they make jab cancels, gentlemans, and other techniques of the sort mushy and imprecise.

 

[ph00tbag]

Auto jab doesn't make sense, plain and simple. You don't hold a button to make any attack repeat over and over. You PRESS THE **** BUTTON.

Auto jabs make blocking projectiles and other **** you do with them overly simple (ever heard of TIMING?) and they make jab cancels, gentlemans, and other techniques of the sort mushy and imprecise.

It must also not make sense to you that holding down the trigger on a machine gun causes it to rapid fire. Obviously, you should have to pull the trigger for every bullet.

Then you go and you make contradictory demands on the game. On the one hand, auto jabs make certain aspects of the game too simple, but then you have difficulty inputting a different command, and blame it on auto-jab. Well, which is it? Should the game be harder or easier for you? Your criteria are arbitrary, and are more just personal complaints than actual complaints about the impact on the metagame.

 

[CloneHat]

How would you like it if Fox's SHDL took no timing? All you have to do is hold the button.

Auto jabs allow imprecision in some areas and stupid ease in others. It's not contradictory, it's just DOUBLE the stupid technique.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOL. I swear they just add and remove things in Brawl+ so they can act like they're doing something important.

Autojabs are fine. Removing them shows a fundamental lack of understanding in how Brawl or Brawl+ plays at the competitive level.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Last time I checked Machine guns weren't built so that we could be fair in wartime.

There is no reason to keep autojabs, you can do everything that you can do with them if they are off, which is also true for when they are on, but when they are on you have the ability to simply hold the button instead of tapping it.

Sure, it's not a huge deal, but it's a good small change.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Last time I checked Machine guns weren't built so that we could be fair in wartime.

There is no reason to keep autojabs, you can do everything that you can do with them if they are off, which is also true for when they are on, but when they are on you have the ability to simply hold the button instead of tapping it.

Sure, it's not a huge deal, but it's a good small change.

Once Again:

LOL. I swear they just add and remove things in Brawl+ so they can act like they're doing something important.

Autojabs are fine. Removing them shows a fundamental lack of understanding in how Brawl or Brawl+ plays at the competitive level.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So once again, you say something and don't give any actual points to confirm it or back it up, and then insult the WBR and say that they don't know how high level play works (on similarly unfounded ground)?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So once again, you say something and don't give any actual points to confirm it or back it up, and then insult the WBR and say that they don't know how high level play works (on similarly unfounded ground)?

I'm not the one removing autojabs for seemingly no reason, lol.

 

[Plum]

I'm not the one removing autojabs for seemingly no reason, lol.

It is a pointless addition to the game, that serves NO purpose other than making things easier to do. It was another way that Sakurai decided to hold the players hand and give it mroe of a "family fun" feel.

Lets look at Pikacu's jab for example. It goes extremely fast when you just hold A, and arguably its best use is to just keep up the headbut until they SDI out of it (free damage) and hope for a trip.
So instead of you having to mash A as fast as you can, you now just have to hold A. See how that takes no skill whatsoever? Getting Pikachu to headbut that fast through pure mashing actually does take precision. You can't just mash mindlessly really quickly because you will get loads of dropped inputs from the bad timing that results from mindless mashing.

Best way I can think of putting it is to imagine if Luigi's Down B and the Ice Climber's Side B could achieve absolute maximum height everytime, guaranteed, by just holding down the B button as you used the move. As it is now they take a lot of practice to be able to achieve maximum height with no second jump. I can't speak for Ice Climbers, but Luigi's recovery improves MASSIVELY when you can achieve maximum height from Down B without using his second jump. Do you see how it would be a problem if the game automatically gave you the best results possible from those moves? That's how autojabs currently work.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

As though mashing the A button does anything to test the player, other than how fast they can mash A? It's a shortcut, a convenient one that gives some characters options they wouldn't normally have and removing it stinks of silliness, and arbitrary elitism.

Best way I can think of putting it is to imagine if Luigi's Down B and the Ice Climber's Side B could achieve absolute maximum height everytime, guaranteed, by just holding down the B button as you used the move. As it is now they take a lot of practice to be able to achieve maximum height with no second jump. I can't speak for Ice Climbers, but Luigi's recovery improves MASSIVELY when you can achieve maximum height from Down B without using his second jump. Do you see how it would be a problem if the game automatically gave you the best results possible from those moves? That's how autojabs currently work.

Frankly I wouldn't see a problem with allowing the maximum possible height, but they don't because they don't. It's a flavor addition, and a strength that adds options situationally to some characters like wall-clinging or multi-jumps.

But sure, ask people to cause physical pain to their thumbs to get the options they used to have back because you want the game to take more "skill" (as though how fast one can hit butons has ever been a good measure of skill). Absurd. There is a very large difference between precision inputs required for something like difficult Street Fighter combos (as a very loose example) and something like jabbing as fast as possible. Stop being stupid and come back down to Earth.

 

[Mattnumbers]

As though mashing the A button does anything to test the player, other than how fast they can mash A? It's a shortcut, a convenient one that gives some characters options they wouldn't normally have and removing it stinks of silliness, and arbitrary elitism.

Exactly what are these options that it gives the player? Theres nothing you can do with auto jabs that you can't do without them.

Also, many people find them annoying, myself included.

And I always laugh when people use Elitism as a negative thing. If there were no elitism in society we would be an anarchy.

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite—a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

So you're saying that it's bad because people who don't have skill in playing the game should still be able to do just as well as those who do? Sakarai probably had a sticky note with that on it on each of his employees computers when they made Brawl.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Elitism has it's place, but this is fighting a battle that isn't worth winning or even losing. Forcing people to mash A rather than holding a button is insane, the WBR just wants more **** to change so they can look busy and/or intelligent. Period. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about this crap.

 

[Mattnumbers]

There has actually been a good deal of it in the nightly build.

And you've heard that a new set isn't coming out for a couple months right? It's not like this is a big deal, there are much more drastic changes on the way when it does finally get released(lower ledge grab range, ledge teching, possibly less hitstun, ect.).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Let's make it so that attacks with multiple hits require inputs each time, too. Like ZSS' upsmash? That **** is skill-less, they need to INPUT for that 1%.

 

[ph00tbag]

How would you like it if Fox's SHDL took no timing? All you have to do is hold the button.

Auto jabs allow imprecision in some areas and stupid ease in others. It's not contradictory, it's just DOUBLE the stupid technique.

I would have no opinion. That would be how the game is, and I would learn how to play it that way. You're missing the whole point of the argument, which is that your criteria for what you want to remove are completely arbitrary, and are more about the game's impact on you, rather than the function's impact on the metagame. If you can tell me why autojabs are degenerate, or create unacceptable disadvantages in certain match-ups, please do so.

My whole view is that Falco vs. ZSS is already 70:30 Falco's favor. Removing one of ZSS's edgeguarding options won't help her. I'm sure that there are other similar situations throughout the game.

Last time I checked Machine guns weren't built so that we could be fair in wartime.

There is no reason to keep autojabs, you can do everything that you can do with them if they are off, which is also true for when they are on, but when they are on you have the ability to simply hold the button instead of tapping it.

Sure, it's not a huge deal, but it's a good small change.

You cannot do everything you can with them when they are off; you cannot get the machine gunning. It's a function that is completely inaccessible when autojab is off, at least that's what I gather from what Neko has been saying.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Machine gunning in itself is no more effective than just timing one jab at the correct time. Machine gunning is just the first jab repeated, then the rest of it when it connects. If you correctly time 1 jab you get the exact same result as holding the button.

 

[ph00tbag]

Machine gunning in itself is no more effective than just timing one jab at the correct time. Machine gunning is just the first jab repeated, then the rest of it when it connects. If you correctly time 1 jab you get the exact same result as holding the button.

OK

How is that degenerate, again?

 

[IC3R]

How are you supposed to push the A button 20 times in one second? (Zamus and her 3-(total)-frame Jab.)

I personally machine-gun it for mindgames. (BUT , now I can't -_-)

 

[GHNeko]

By auto-jabs. I meant the automatic A-A-A comb, not the part where you hold A, and the first jab continues to repeat itself. That's fine, but having the automatic A-A-A part ie Auto jabs is what's on the table to be removed.

 

[ph00tbag]

By auto-jabs. I meant the automatic A-A-A comb, not the part where you hold A, and the first jab continues to repeat itself. That's fine, but having the automatic A-A-A part ie Auto jabs is what's on the table to be removed.

Well, then why'd you mention it when I was talking about the machine gunning?

 

[GHNeko]

Because I didnt even know you called it machine gunning. Lol.

I just call it Jab, and the auto AAA part, autojab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well I feel better.

 

[ph00tbag]

Heh, until recently, I just called it "Holding A," which was short for "Holding A for the lulz."

I guess machine gunning is a good way to distinguish it, though.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Soooooo... ZSS's down-throw. How do I DI it? DI away from ZSS, she can follow it up with a f-air. DI towards her, she can follow it up with u-air. No DI, she's free to do either. Kinda annoying since the thing doesn't have enough KBG to stop her from having guaranteed follow-ups even at high percents.

Really, really annoying since her f-air and u-air kill.

 

[ph00tbag]

Soooooo... ZSS's down-throw. How do I DI it? DI away from ZSS, she can follow it up with a f-air. DI towards her, she can follow it up with u-air. No DI, she's free to do either. Kinda annoying since the thing doesn't have enough KBG to stop her from having guaranteed follow-ups even at high percents.

Really, really annoying since her f-air and u-air kill.

Isn't it great?

I think DIing down can lead to CGs, on some characters, too.

Hint: the real question is, Why are you getting grabbed?

 

[KOkingpin]

Why are you getting grabbed?

haha i was gonna say the same thing. ZSS' grab is pretty atrocious. Whenever I play as/against ZSS there isnt alot of grabbing going on. Dtilt and Utilt are always better options.

 

[ph00tbag]

haha i was gonna say the same thing. ZSS' grab is pretty atrocious. Whenever I play as/against ZSS there isnt alot of grabbing going on. Dtilt and Utilt are always better options.

Jab's probably her best, actually. But I use grab occasionally as a mix-up and for tech chases, because although it has absurdly high risk, it has absurdly high reward to go with it.

 

[Viquey]

Also, it's my fav followup to dsmash, which I seem to actually get more often than you'd think. Dsmash and grab are probably the two hardest things to land, so I figure, if you get one, why not throw in the other while you're at it? xD

 

[ph00tbag]

Also, it's my fav followup to dsmash, which I seem to actually get more often than you'd think. Dsmash and grab are probably the two hardest things to land, so I figure, if you get one, why not throw in the other while you're at it? xD

Incidentally, if you're fighting a Fox that fails at DI, dthrow -> dsmash is a combo.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I feel like I'm the only person still playing her in plus sometimes. It makes me sad.