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Brawl+ ZSS

Yeroc

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ZSS was one of the first characters to get a big boost in Brawl+ with the ability to chain together more conventional combos and she's stayed right up there ever since. Excellent mobility, spacing options, close range pressure, and unique combo potential really set her apart, both from her vanilla counterpart and the rest of the Brawl+ cast. This is the topic to discuss ZSS's newfound strengths and advantages, the place to trade strategies and tactics with other players, and learn tips and tricks from the best and brightest.

I'll start things off: what single code change really opened your eyes to the potential ZSS has been exhibiting in Brawl+?
 

ph00tbag

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The best thing that really happened to ZSS was the hitstun, and it's really all she needed. ZSS's biggest weaknesses in vBrawl were the fact that she had a mediocre approach, and that her average damage output per "combo" did not make up for it. In Brawl+, last time I played, both of those problems were solved. ZSS's short hop was shorter, and her fall speed was higher, making her nair and uair much more potent offensive threats, and both of them led into massive strings of powerful combos involving uair, fair, Plasma Wire, dash attack, jab, dtilt, and the list goes on.

Her defensive game also improved. Narrower PS window makes Plasma Whip and Paralyzer more spammable, and more likely to create openings which did not present themselves when both moves were abysmally easy to PS, and the increased shield stun made both of them a lot safer on block. Safety on block has also been boosted for Dsmash, which was an excellent pressure move before, and is even better now. ZSS also kept her good spacing moves, naturally, all of which present openings; bair, nair, dtilt, ftilt. They can all present opportunities in the right spots.

ZSS does have some weaknesses, but mostly they serve to balance her strengths. Due to increased shield stun, ZSS's OOS options like utilt and jab are much less useful, and her aerials can really only be used to escape from a shield pressure situation. Of course, her grab is horrendous as always. This is another of ZSS's issues. Her grab is really only useful out of stun, and although her dthrow makes grab out of dsmash a good idea, it limits ZSS's grab game. A less laggy pivot grab would be nice, but it's unnecessary, given ZSS's other strengths.

Granted, I haven't played ZSS in 4.0, so some of my observations might no longer be valid.
 

Yeroc

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We still haven't made any ZSS specific changes yet, and currently aren't planning to in 4.X. We slightly sped up her standing grab for a while, but it got axed and I never really found out why.
 

ph00tbag

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We still haven't made any ZSS specific changes yet, and currently aren't planning to in 4.X. We slightly sped up her standing grab for a while, but it got axed and I never really found out why.
I could have sworn at least her falling speed was faster in 3.2. Again, I don't think her grabs need buffing. ZSS might find some buffs useful, but overall she doesn't need them.
 

Soldner Kei

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ZSS feels perfect in 4.0

her combos just got better, and correct me if I'm wrong, but her Dsmash its just like in vBrawl, and that's pure sex, her neutral b seems to be the same too, so she can combo like hell with these moves again, she is way too good :D

As for her weakness, no problem, she is pretty much balanced because of that C:
 

ph00tbag

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Her dsmash isn't the same. It's probably 70-80% as long as it was in vBrawl.

I'm still not perfectly pleased with it, but it's an acceptable compromise. The Paralyzer seems to be better, but I still think it desrves to have no change, because of how specifically timed it was in vBrawl.
 

Sukai

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turn around....
Samus has changed.
Whether or not she improved is beyond my speculation, but she's just...changed.

I like her a bit more now.
But getting a flow is kind of hard, but once you get one, it's hard to stop her. It take a minute getting used to the hitlag, as Samus was packed with it in alot of her attacks.
 

Yingyay

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I chained three sideB's together, then just to be cruel, dair'd and it worked O_O
ZSS is definitely gonna my second. She's soooo much fun to juggle people with, then UpB them and dair is = to drinking apple juice. Tasty!
 

Ishiey

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The added hitstun is great, I just pulled off a dtilt by the ledge to a suicide dair spike, beautiful way to end the match. ZSS flows very nicely, and dsmash is also a lot safer now, I don't think she needs any more buffs/nerfs.
 

Rkey

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I was thinking that maybe buffing the winddown of her up-b would make her like one of the most awesome characters. I mean, she could u-tilt -> uair -> up-b -> bair or something like that. At high percents she wont retract her whip before the enemy is way past her. Seing more up-b combos would be really great, and would also bring forth uniqueness in the character. Feedback?
 

Andarel

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I really don't think ZSS needs buffs that badly, if at all. She's already great, don't try to make her better because that can lead to reactive nerfs.
 

Revven

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Stop. Talking. ABout. Buffs/nerfs. This is discussion of how the character is NOW, quit using thread space as "lololol she needs xxxx and i think dis is xxxxx too!"
 

Colin Mitchell

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Right now she's pretty good. I found out that on fastfallers i.e. Captain Falcon she can combo into dsmash out of dthrow at zero to maybe around ten? Makes it easier to get that first bit of damage that allows for her u-air combos. Neutral-b works also and seems to chaingrab. These both assume no upward DI, which may render both options useless, but if they DI up you can up air/smash them.

I think I'm maining Zamus. =D
 

Rkey

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Stop. Talking. ABout. Buffs/nerfs. This is discussion of how the character is NOW, quit using thread space as "lololol she needs xxxx and i think dis is xxxxx too!"
Thanks for constructive feedback falco400 XD but yeah, you're making a point. I'll stop
 

red stone

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-i find zss's neutral b quite short. always has been. also, when it does hit, it's rarely worth it
-i also find that her down smash is quite hard to land
-overall though, i love her speed, it's great just going lighting fast everywhere
-no complaints about gravity or speed
-her u-air chains quite well
-forward-b is useful in some situations
-her lack of K.O. moves is a little sad, but her speed and finesse make up for it.
-a balanced character overall, but some moves need to be checked for usefulness
 

Andarel

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A partly charged neutural B guarantees a grab, dash attack, or I think even dtilt out of dash. That's pretty useful, and it's always been short-ranged.

Dsmash is hard to land, that's true. :\

She can KO with forward-B, bair, down-B, fair, uair, dair (final hit). All of those can be comboed into, pretty sure...

Edit: I know fair is an inferior kill move compared to uair and RAR bair, but it's still an option.
 

Rkey

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Is it just me or is the "character jumps out of stun when it ends"- animation really weird now? It looks nothing like the old one, just try to d-smash ness untill he gets away. That actually looks very creepy o.O
 

Sterowent

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dsmash is, from what i hear, a primarily charged smash used to punish rolls.

since it comes out on frame 2 or somethin when you release it.
 

RyokoYaksa

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Is her Fsmash any different in B+?
As of yesterday, it is. The move is all around stronger and is actually a pretty respectable kill now (though it was at the expense of Side-B power). The back hit is also safe on hit at any percent with how far it sends now. Everything else about it is the same.
 

Yeroc

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Yes, I forgot to mention that to Shanus this time around. I had told him the first time but it didn't make it into a set then, and when I told him again I forgot.
 

Yingyay

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Nooooez the side B got nerfed? I'd rather have side-b stronger than Fsmsh.
SideB has better range and can combo in the air v_v
 

Yeroc

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It hasn't been nerfed all that much. It's still a rather powerful spacing tool, damage builder, and kill move, just not the absurd percents of vBrawl. I'd personally trade that for a useful (and in some cases safe!) fsmash any day. Fair got a buff too. The hits should pretty much always link now because there's no growth at all on the first hit.
 

Yingyay

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It hasn't been nerfed all that much. It's still a rather powerful spacing tool, damage builder, and kill move, just not the absurd percents of vBrawl. I'd personally trade that for a useful (and in some cases safe!) fsmash any day. Fair got a buff too. The hits should pretty much always link now because there's no growth at all on the first hit.
I never had problems linking fair other than the fact that her short hop is kinda high (dont change btw) but it works for an interesting cross-up tool. short-hop backwards fair winz. I like the buff either way tho, before it was like trying to land Sheik's Fsmash in mid-air >_>
 

RyokoYaksa

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Her Fsmash is pretty much directly linked with Dsmash. >.>
It's too unsafe otherwise unless the opponent really, really messed up.
 

ph00tbag

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Honestly, the power buff to fsmash wasn't needed except in the back, and that still doesn't need to be as powerful as it is, now. Consequently, the damage nerf to Plasma Whip wasn't necessary, IMO. Fsmash is still useless, so nerfing Plasma Whip doesn't balance anything out.

And yes, fsmash is easily still useless. It's still slow as balls on start-up and cool-down, leaving you in too much lag if you miss. It's not a gtfo move, because utilt and jab are still much better for that purpose (jab even moreso than in vBrawl). It's not a damage dealer, since I can do much more damage with moves that can actually combo. It's not a KOer, since I'm much more mobile with moves like Plasma Whip, bair and fair. It's not even a good follow-up to dsmash, since at lower percents, grabbing will always lead to more damage, and aerials are more likely to KO out of it.

If you want to make Fsmash useful, make it a ****ton faster, and maybe make it good for starting combos. Otherwise, leave it be, and keep in mind that ZSS is still a beast without it.
 

RyokoYaksa

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Fsmash (sweetspot) is actually her strongest hit now, barely edging out Bair. Only barely, though. Post-Dsmash it's usually still better to just grab-Dthrow-aerial unless you already caught them out of their 2nd jump. IMO Fsmash could stand to hit harder still.
 

ph00tbag

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Fsmash (sweetspot) is actually her strongest hit now, barely edging out Bair. Only barely, though. Post-Dsmash it's usually still better to just grab-Dthrow-aerial unless you already caught them out of their 2nd jump. IMO Fsmash could stand to hit harder still.
I'd trade the mobility of bair for the slight difference in KO potential. I honestly think Fsmash didn't need any work. Neither did Plasma Whip.

What needs work is dair. That's really the only issue ZSS has.
 

ph00tbag

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I know this is a double post, but I just thought I'd let everyone here know that dash attack is pretty amazing in B+. It combos into utilt, dtilt, jab combo, and even more dash attacks. Not to mention, it ultimately can knock people off the stage, and that's really good, since ZSS's edgeguard is definitely one of the best in the game.
 

cobaltblue

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I'd trade the mobility of bair for the slight difference in KO potential. I honestly think Fsmash didn't need any work. Neither did Plasma Whip.

What needs work is dair. That's really the only issue ZSS has.
Just what is wrong with her dair? It makes a great move for getting to the ground to continue a combo after an up-b and a missed tech.
 

gunterrsmash01

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Her nair and fair combined with the brawl+ momentum is soooooooo good. you can carry them across the stage with nair/fair like falcon could in melee.
 
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