Brawl+ ZSS

[ph00tbag]

I feel like I'm the only person still playing her in plus sometimes. It makes me sad.

The thing is, there's so little to talk about. Just spam jab, and the rest should flow naturally.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS in brawl+ is borderline broken, if not completely broken. She is possibly the best character in the game and her only difficult match-ups in B+ are Olimar (down-b is gay) and Falco.

Also dair spiking is so ****ing hilarious

 

[BadGuy]

ZSS in brawl+ is borderline broken, if not completely broken. She is possibly the best character in the game and her only difficult match-ups in B+ are Olimar (down-b is gay) and Falco.

Also dair spiking is so ****ing hilarious

Wow, you whine like a total scrub. Instead of complaining, try learning how to fight her, and maybe you'll learn a thing or two. But that's only possible if you can take zss down from that pedestal you put her on and believe that she can be fought.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L1vMAaLJ70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OVqcGm_RzI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lya3XJaOW4

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uh ZSS is my main and I play her in B+.

This ZSS is terrible, she isn't using dtilt at all, she isn't using uair, she isn't using jab. These are ZSS 3 most broken moves. Usmash is a bad move in b+, flip jump is not an approach, and fsmash as an edgeguard is a bad idea.

THe reason ZSS is so broken in b+ is because good players don't play her and aren't giving the kind of feedback they need to.

Also learn to DI, did you seriously die from a back air at 100%

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

You really think USmash is that bad in Plus?

 

[BadGuy]

Uh ZSS is my main and I play her in B+.

This ZSS is terrible, she isn't using dtilt at all, she isn't using uair, she isn't using jab. These are ZSS 3 most broken moves. Usmash is a bad move in b+, flip jump is not an approach, and fsmash as an edgeguard is a bad idea.

THe reason ZSS is so broken in b+ is because good players don't play her and aren't giving the kind of feedback they need to.

Also learn to DI, did you seriously die from a back air at 100%

Even if the zss player isn't as good as yours supposedly is, saying "something can't work, as this" is a very limited way of thinking, being innovative and creative is how new strategies are made. Plus I'm very accustomed this samus's play style, it's only natural I'm gonna make her look bad. And if you hate zzs's current build so much, why don't you post a video of her in action that makes her so broken? Do something about it instead of just whining.
Don't have recording equipment? Go buy some then, or shut up, because complaining about it isn't gonna accomplish anything if you're then only one whining.

 

[JCaesar]

There were some really good ZSS matches by Dazwa at the Pound 4 B+ tourney, but unfortunately I think they were saved on Cape's Wii which I never got the replays from. I do, however, have a recent tourney match of Vanz's ZSS which is also quite good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNZP90LbW30

In all honestly I think ZSS is top 10 and likely top 5. She's just so quick and moves so well, running speed, jump speed, attack speed, etc. She's like Squirtle with range. She doesn't really have any exploitable weaknesses either. You could say recovery but ... it's really not, if they're competent.

That said, I don't think she's so broken that she should be nerfed. If anything, at this point in the game, I'd much rather see other characters brought up to her level than see her brought down.

 

[ph00tbag]

That said, I don't think she's so broken that she should be nerfed. If anything, at this point in the game, I'd much rather see other characters brought up to her level than see her brought down.

Even though we're apparently at Gold, now, I do think that in the future, nerfing her jab so it always results in knockdown might be a good idea to keep in mind. No need to apply it now, but whenever the next patch is planned for, consider it.

The thing is, jab combos into grab at high percents right now, and that's just silly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

IMO the biggest problem with zero suit is going to be that everything eventually combos into uair.

Her combos are very good and all eventually pop opponents into the air, except jab, which is kinda broken for other reasons (ph00tbag said it best).

I have some replays but I can't find my dazzle. I may ask a friend to upload them for me.

JC: Agree that she's at least top 5 and probably top 3. I have a hunch she may be the best character.

Also I love her playstyle in Brawl+ but I DO wish her stuns were easier to land (or that things could combo into dsmash or PS). They so represent ZSS as a character (they're what make her unique) and without them she just feels like a Captain Falcon clone.

 

[The Cape]

Well this could use a fix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bDvlvygVc

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I actually don't see that as being a big deal. Who lands a reverse uair to dsmash at 0% anyway =P

But if you must fix it, just add a little KBG to dsmash (and hitlag so you can dsmash twice, too heh)

 

[Yeroc]

I used to agree with you, I wanted to make dsmash easier to land but more punishable or some other sort of trade off, but the fact is that the sheer multitude of options you already have out of dsmash would just make the whole premise that much more ridiculously good than it already is. ZSS is a good character, but she's fairly difficult to extract her fullest potential. If she ends up being the best character, I'd rather it be a demanding one like her than a very beginner friendly one.

 

[The Cape]

Well the reverse uair to D smash is silly. Its just one unavoidable setup into D smash (regular hit works on heavies and FFers too btw).

But the fact of the matter is, if you catch a D smash on a sidestep, why do you deserve 55% and a free followup after that? A higher angle on the D smash and a bit more base KB would actually make this almost non existant after 2 D smashes (and maybe 3 for Fox and Falcon)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wait a sec, I thought the dsmash chains were eliminated already; I thought you found a way to do it at a specific % (7%?) or something.

Yeah, remove dsmash chains they're dumb.

 

[The Cape]

From 0 you can get 4 or 5 on most characters as is. The move just doesnt decay fast enough. All I found way a way to setup the D smash for guaranteed damage.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What if dsmash lasted a bit longer but the opponent was shot straight up afterward at a fixed height? DIable by some degree, I guess.


It'd be a nerf to Dsmash followups though which sucks. =/

 

[JCaesar]

Cape did you check the dsmash chain agianst someone actively trying to get out? The G&W part of that video at least looked escapable.

 

[ph00tbag]

From 0 you can get 4 or 5 on most characters as is. The move just doesnt decay fast enough. All I found way a way to setup the D smash for guaranteed damage.

Decay is what causes dsmash chains in the first place.

Re: Corey--part of dsmash's appeal is that it can lead to some nice shield advantages, and is a ridiculous combo starter with a risky start up. Changing that around makes the move feel more generic, but also more broken. As it is, dsmash is flashy and amazing in all contexts but edgeguarding, which is its primary use. And its brokenness in edgeguarding won't be changed by the changes you would add.

 

[The Cape]

What I meant to say I guess is that the move doesnt tumble fast enough.

JCaesar: Tried it on humans, and its more effective on some and less on others obviously.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fair enough, hopefully you can find a nerf for that, but I will mention that landing a dsmash at 0% is virtually impossible in brawl+. It's pretty hard to land one as it is except on opponents recovering from below the stage (seriously no auto sweet spot was a huge buff to ZSS' edgeguarding).

EDIT: Also, lol, is dsmash -> reverse uair -> dsmash repeat a combo? that would be pretty gay.

 

[The Cape]

It would not surprise me if that was a combo, I have to try that out now...

As for the D smash at 0. All you have to do is bait a sidestep and its GG 55%.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I used to agree with you, I wanted to make dsmash easier to land but more punishable or some other sort of trade off, but the fact is that the sheer multitude of options you already have out of dsmash would just make the whole premise that much more ridiculously good than it already is. ZSS is a good character, but she's fairly difficult to extract her fullest potential. If she ends up being the best character, I'd rather it be a demanding one like her than a very beginner friendly one.

Sorry; just saw this post.

I understand your point and even kind of agree with it, but I still feel that ZSS feels a little like a Captain Falcon clone without her stuns (which are pretty useless in high level play even in Brawl+). I played Rien a lot (good ROB in my area) last weekend and it was nearly impossible to land a Dsmash on him.

Dsmash's startup time is really crazy and Brawl+ just moves too fast. If ZSS wasn't so good already I'd just say to make it 15 frames (down from 20) and that would help a lot. The problem to me is that even without the stuns I was 2- and 3-stocking Rien who is probably a better player than I am; except when he played Olimar. Down-b is a *****.

TL;DR: ZSS is really good so the stuns don't really need a buff but I wish they'd been considered a little more when balancing her.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I can't believe I'm asking this in Brawl+ but how do I deal with MetaKnight?

I really just didn't know how to deal with the constant pressure and gimps at all.

 

[ph00tbag]

I used to agree with you, I wanted to make dsmash easier to land but more punishable or some other sort of trade off, but the fact is that the sheer multitude of options you already have out of dsmash would just make the whole premise that much more ridiculously good than it already is. ZSS is a good character, but she's fairly difficult to extract her fullest potential. If she ends up being the best character, I'd rather it be a demanding one like her than a very beginner friendly one.

That's what I'm saying. Landing a dsmash is really difficult, on grounded opponents, because you have to predict that they're going to do some kind of dodge into it, which is unreliable. Making the move faster on start-up will only make it easier to land. On the other hand, the move is already stupidly easy on recoveries, and changing its timing won't change that. The change you're suggesting makes ZSS easier overall, IMO.

 

[insertnamehere]

Perhaps I am missing something, but wouldn't the best solution to the multiple dsmash combo without affecting the rest of ZSS be to lower the damage of dsmash but increase its knockback growth commiserately? The problem with the dsmash isn't so much that it can combo into itself repeatedly, its that the combo currently does 55% damage. If the knockback is such that it still pops people out after 4-5 hits, then the combo will be a lot less likely to influence the course of the game. And since ZSS players rarely use dsmash to build damage anyway, but simply to setup other moves, it will likely affect her playstyle far less than the other changes proposed.