Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Grunt]

I feel that it makes if more realistic.

In what way is this realistic?

 

[Pink Reaper]

There were true combos and then there were psuedo combos in Melee. There were the combos that will always work(true combos) and then there are combo's like Utilt juggling and uair juggling that only work because you catch your opponent off guard with them. Technically, with proper DI and Smash DI utilt juggling shouldn't work after the first Utilt most of the time, however your opponent may not have been expecting it so they don't DI immediately. Then there are NON combos, which are basically combo's that should never work, like Dthrow->Shine with Fox or Dthrow->Fair with Zelda. Those only work when your opponent is really bad and has no idea how to tech/DI

 

[Zankoku]

Or when they actually happened because the combos had, you know, adequate hitstun. Or just enough to prevent you from airdodging (since airdodging isn't instantaneous) out of it.

There were plenty of those, though most 4+ hit combos were due to bad DI.

You can't break out of tumble with an airdodge in Melee. You can break tumble by wiggling your control stick, doing an aerial, doing a B move, or using your double jump, though they all break tumble at the same time; once hitstun is gone.

Airdodge mechanics in Brawl are inexplicable; you may airdodge a short time after getting hit, and in some cases airdodging after getting hit will allow you to double jump before you normally would be able to. This is because, for some odd reason, you're allowed to airdodge before hitstun runs out, as proven by Falcon's dair > let the CPU airdodge > knee registered as two consecutive hits.

Just some random info.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

ZS Samus' down smash has adequate hit stun, you know what, maybe Zs Samus stole the hit stun from everyone else for herself?
I think she is prety selfish, I mean, she probably steals everything, I bet she didn't pay for that Zero Suit, and she steals peoples lunches, then jogs a few miles to work it off.
But maybe by breaking her pistol we can restore adequate hitstun to everyone, rather than keep it bottled up in that pistol.
But, if combos in Brawl will degenerate due to the defensive gameplay, ZS Samus will excel, due to the abilty to instantly combo after a B stun or D-smash stun.
ZS Samus for top tier!

 

[Zankoku]

ZSS' dsmash and neutral B stun are more comparable to hitlag than hitstun, in terms of behavior. >_>

 

[IrArby]

Really...****, I need to start playing Wario then,.

Actually, at a tournament I went a few weeks back we ran Brawl and Melee. The #1 Melee Player in NC came up and wiped the floor with everyone in Melee. He played in the Brawl tourney too as Wario. He made it all the way through the whole tourney with Wario until he played a decent (and I do enfasize decent) Snake.

He did all that stuff using Wario's amazing DI to force him to Air Spot Dodge and hit him right after it ended and many other mindgames besides and still lost the set. I don't think he won a single match. It was was really boring and sad at the same time. Snake brokeness outweighed superior mindgames every match.

Its still a good approach to use against anyone who has enough self-respect to not use Snake or MK though.

 

[Razed]

Combos just aren't a big part of this game... I think Brawl with progress more strategically in response to its lack of technical potential. It sounds like fun, to me

 

[Corigames]

How can it progress more strategically when there are no combos or AT's? The most technical it'll get is avoiding all damage. Match timers will have to be changed to 12 minutes and what not. Just my biased opinion.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

How can it progress more strategically when there are no combos or AT's? The most technical it'll get is avoiding all damage. Match timers will have to be changed to 12 minutes and what not. Just my biased opinion.

Then techniques and ways and mindgames will and can be developed to indeed avoid all damage. It does take skill and it does take good reflexes to avoid what damage will come your way period, it is in my opinion that the lack of hit stun can only serve to make people develop their mindgames game even more. Whether this can be done without inescapable combos, wavedashing or etc etc, is also up to other's opinions. I disagree completely with Gimpyfish and believe it is only possible for progression to go forth at least when it comes to a game like Smash Bros.

And besides, after playing Brawl, I can't really go back to Melee, at least to me it really does feel old and clunky. People really should not have been expecting a Melee 2.0 out of Brawl, it -is- its own game. To say whether it is a bad thing or not (from ones own views about how it plays or should) is being rather lame. Sure, if it seems bad to you, yes, it's bad for you; for others, like me, I rather like it and do believe the metagame can progress with skilled players trying their best; so it's good.

Adapt to the game, and become better than the one you are fighting, with whatever you may have at your disposal no matter how limited you may feel it is. If you win, you have progressed in skill.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Everything said in this thread became voided the second Futile's Wario beat DSF's Snake two tournaments in a row.

 

[Zankoku]

Oh come on, you can't just say that. My last two posts in here have been nothing but cold hard facts.

 

[IrArby]

Everything said in this thread became voided the second Futile's Wario beat DSF's Snake two tournaments in a row.

vids?

I'm not trying to call you out or be skeptical. I totally believe you I'd just like to see vids and take note of what Futile did.
Otherwise I'm convinced this game is competetive trash.

The last sentence is merely my opinion so don't bother to flame it please.

 

[viparagon]

Totally agree!

 

[AlphaZealot]

Oh come on, you can't just say that. My last two posts in here have been nothing but cold hard facts.

Checks back a page...

EDIT: gdi, there were two posts on this page, rofl.

There is no strategy involved in tripping. It's a random occurrence. The act of avoiding tripping by not running at all is only limiting your play by being unnecessarily safe against tripping.

Would a player not be wise to minimize the occurrence of random chance if they know the variables that effect tripping? In my case, I usually go 4-5 matches between trips. I don't think anyone would suggest NOT running, but a random variables likelihood of insertion (tripping because cause by dashing, for example) will increase with the number of times that variable has the opportunity to be introduced. If you give yourself a chance to trip 200 times a game, and I give myself a chance to trip 100 times a game, and you happen to trip twice as often as I do, then who is playing smarter? Furthermore, if I can do this without limiting options or by selecting better options, wouldn't minimizing the chance of tripping be a GOOD decision?

That some don't want to do this is a fault within themselves. True, its sucks that such a variable exists, but choosing to ignore the variable will net poorer results then figuring out ways to work around it, work with it, or minimize its impact.

This also doesn't mention that in a tight game, playing close to the opponent and performing moves that don't induce tripping may allow you to punish an opponent who doesn't make likewise decisions.

The only emphasis on mindgames is the one to be found for players with poor reflexes. Just react, it'll do you as much good as predicting, except that you'll do everything right instead of occasionally guessing wrong.

This is not at all a cold hard fact, the sentence you just wrote could just as easily be applied to Melee as well, except I think we both know this sentence is untrue (hence why it can't be applied to Melee or Brawl).
Easy example:
Person A rolls around person B
Person B predicts roll and has charged Smash attack waiting on the other side
If it were reaction:
Person A rolls
HOLY ****, PERSON A ROLLED, I BETTER ATTACK ON THE OTHER SIDE
Person B attacks with an uncharged Smash attack

This is all but the simplest of examples.

If you claim Brawl to be strictly reactionary, then such a claim can indeed be made with Melee, and such a claim so far has more evidence in Melee, given how Mew2King plays pretty much strictly reactionary. I actually think it may be a partial removal of the ability just to react that has set some players off (for example, comboing in Melee is largely based on reaction).

EDIT: In regards to the two posts on this page, what is your point that I need to refute? Do they somehow show that the game will become only about defense?

 

[DD151]

Would a player not be wise to minimize the occurrence of random chance if they know the variables that effect tripping? In my case, I usually go 4-5 matches between trips. I don't think anyone would suggest NOT running, but a random variables likelihood of insertion (tripping because cause by dashing, for example) will increase with the number of times that variable has the opportunity to be introduced. If you give yourself a chance to trip 200 times a game, and I give myself a chance to trip 100 times a game, and you happen to trip twice as often as I do, then who is playing smarter? Furthermore, if I can do this without limiting options or by selecting better options, wouldn't minimizing the chance of tripping be a GOOD decision?

That some don't want to do this is a fault within themselves. True, its sucks that such a variable exists, but choosing to ignore the variable will net poorer results then figuring out ways to work around it, work with it, or minimize its impact.

would you direct me to the topic that proves this varible does exist? i haven't been browsing the brawl boards that often lately and the last i remember of such a topic, there was still no conclusive evidence.

 

[AlphaZealot]

LOL.

The variable is your chance of tripping. This chance can only occur when you are dashing (or rather, pressing to the side on the control stick).

In other words, don't dash unless you have to.

 

[DD151]

oops, looks like i was reading the second quoted bit out of context of the first. my apologies.

however, it's difficult to qualify when a dash is necessary, because it's one of the basic elements of movement that constitute "mindgaming," which isn't even that concrete to begin with.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I actually thought this topic would die out quickly, I have been proven wrong. Oh well. Going WAAAAAAAY back to the beginning with Gimpy's opening comments.

Yeah, I've seen the same thing. This is what's leading the game towards a much longer style of play than should be necessary. It's easily evidenced by the fact that alot of tournaments now need to run fewer stock or longer times just to avoid an overwhelming number of Sudden Death Matches. Melee was more about outthinking the opponents moves and chaining together combos from there. Brawl is more along the lines of "waiting for them to mess up and then punishing the hell out of it". Grabs and projectiles have suddenly become the only really important aspects of the game. Non-campy players will of course argue against this, but when taking on highly skilled opponents who decide to camp, you may notice that those Falco lasers you thought were so easy to get by are a lot more difficcult when he keeps hopping through them and pushing you with that shine then casually runs away to do it from the other side. 1-3% damage accumulates more quickly than you might think.

 

[IrArby]

1-3% damage accumulates more quickly than you might think.

I almost wish it would accumulate more quickly just to get the match over with. lol

 

[Zankoku]

EDIT: In regards to the two posts on this page, what is your point that I need to refute? Do they somehow show that the game will become only about defense?

My point that you can't refute was that those two posts on that page were indeed fact. I was just messing with you since you used a blanket statement : P

 

[Patsie]

\

Melee was more about outthinking the opponents moves and chaining together combos from there. Brawl is more along the lines of "waiting for them to mess up and then punishing the hell out of it".

Yea, I agree with you in the fact that camping is much more accessible in Brawl, and that it can be very easy.

I don't know if I can agree with the second sentence here, though.

I don't think that there's even that much punishment that you come across in Brawl for mistakes. First, I don't think that it's even that easy to punish mistakes in Brawl. Even with things like FF'd dairs with landing lag, the pushback and hitbox they added to moves like that make the frame of time smaller (and them making the game slower basically) make it even harder to punish glaring mistakes. The person can normally shield even after a risky move, and the only moves guaranteed to punish are quick, relatively painless things like tilts. I actually think that the metagame of Brawl, for me at least, is at the point where you have to predict what move your opponent uses (depending on the situation) and then start your counter even before your opponent reacts.

As an example, a Jiggs is laying down away from an Ike, and Ike knows that Jiggs either a) gets up/attacks, b) rolls one way, c) rolls the other. Ike's job would be to position himself where he thinks Jiggs will roll to and pull off a solid move (fsmash, say, an easy early KO for someone like JP). The punishment comes from predicting opponents gameplay to set up effective punishment. That's why I actually like Brawl at this stage, I'm finding that I need to predict more and react (as in, that person screwed up so go punish) less.

In the ideal match for me (I know that ideal won't always happen), both characters are using offensive strategies to approach their opponent. As in -- Pit fires arrows but sets up offense after a hit, Snake uses nades and sticky bombs but while still approaching (not camping and reacting), etc: basically the players will stick to their character's strengths but not resort to camping. I know this won't happen if someone decides to camp, but this would describe most of the matches I have. The metagame, for me, has come to the point where both characters are approaching, but have to approach each other in a way in which to anticipate his opponent's attacks. It's a different kind of mindgames that forces people to use variation in their strategies in order to avoid using something predictable and easily punished. I know Brawl can (and probably has) deteriorated into something worse than this, but so far, these are the kinds of matches I've participated in, and I really enjoy them.

Sorry for that rant, but I just wanted to post somewhere why I love playing Brawl at this point, even instead of Melee.

This also gave my second reason for why I disagreed with your post, I think that Brawl also involves a good amount of outthinking your opponent. Melee seemed to be more of a 'outthink their approach and then punish hard with combos' attitude when it came to punishing mistakes. (Don't get me wrong, I love Melee.) In Brawl, because combos are hard to come by and because it requires more approaching per kill, I find myself having to outthink opponents a lot more. I know this doesn't apply to campfests, but I guess I haven't experienced them yet, even against Snakes and TL's that have done incredibly well in tourneys, who use projectiles but still have an approach strategy.

Other than that, I agree with your post for the most part.

 

[Grunt]

Would a player not be wise to minimize the occurrence of random chance if they know the variables that effect tripping?

Pressing L works pretty good on minimizing tripping.
XD

 

[Zankoku]

I can't say I've really done much approaching in Brawl, since it seems whiffing lagless aerials is much safer than hitting a shield with them, so I just SHFF a lot of aerials in front of someone until they're somehow baited into unshielding and jumping into one of my aerials, even though all I've been doing was SHFFing fairs the whole time. :V

Unless I'm Marth. If it's Marth then I just SH tippered fairs on their shield.

Maybe it's just because I like messing with people, though. :V

Pressing L works pretty good on minimizing tripping.
XD

MASH THAT DOWN+A AND CATCH THE POKEMON BETTER

 

[Corigames]

If you give yourself a chance to trip 200 times a game, and I give myself a chance to trip 100 times a game, and you happen to trip twice as often as I do, then who is playing smarter? Furthermore, if I can do this without limiting options or by selecting better options, wouldn't minimizing the chance of tripping be a GOOD decision

First, wouldn't it be a problem to hinder yourself, consciously, throughout a match to avoid tripping? I mean, it doesn't matter if you didn't trip in a match, if you lost it. Personally, I hate tripping, but if I tripped four times in a match and won because the other person was going out of his way to avoid tripping, I still won. Just a consideration.

Secondly, what point have we reached in a game's franchise when you are focused, somewhat, more on the avoidance of bad gameplay mechanics than the fight itself? If you played Halo having to constantly worry about tripping, I hardly doubt people would defend the idea of "playing smart" and avoiding tripping. If you tripped at full speed in that game and you didn't when you crouch walked, it would be just as hindering in Brawl. And would someone have the right to say that you aren't playing smart if you don't constantly crouch walk or at least half the time? No.

Lastly, tripping is just dumb. Why Nintendo? Why?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Yeah, Brawl is a real disappointment. I love Smash, but I also HATE this game. Snake is broken. Sonic ended up sucking badly. Everything's unbalanced. It's too simple.

I could go on. The online is horrible, for Christ's sake.

I'll wait for the day an intelligent person makes Brawl competitive again (or at least an aspect FOR competitive players that won't let the game suck badly). I, a competitive player, am angry.

 

[The Real Inferno]

WALL OF TEXT

scroll up to read it you lazy *******s

Well I would like to point out I still love Brawl. I certainly could never be brought to say the game sucks, or I wouldnt have played it in the first place. And whether I wanted to go somewhere and play brawl, or play melee, Brawl is the obvious choice for me.

On to your points though. I actually knew somebody would probably read what I said that way, I just have no other way I can come with how to put it than calling it outthinking. I guess what I mean to say is, that because the lower hitstun and easy to protect yourself nature of the game unless someone makes a glaring error they are incredibly hard to kill if they dedicate their time to defense. I'm not sure how to word it better than that though.

 

[Patsie]

Well I would like to point out I still love Brawl. I certainly could never be brought to say the game sucks, or I wouldnt have played it in the first place. And whether I wanted to go somewhere and play brawl, or play melee, Brawl is the obvious choice for me.

On to your points though. I actually knew somebody would probably read what I said that way, I just have no other way I can come with how to put it than calling it outthinking. I guess what I mean to say is, that because the lower hitstun and easy to protect yourself nature of the game unless someone makes a glaring error they are incredibly hard to kill if they dedicate their time to defense. I'm not sure how to word it better than that though.

Yea, haha, I didn't mean to write all that as a response to your post. I was going to respond originally and then I kind of just ranted about why I still love Brawl =)

I agreed with the majority of what you had to say though.

 

[Bocom]

My friend planned to host a Melee tournament sometime before the release of Brawl (This friday), but he never got around to it, so that's why I will have a seperate Melee tournament during my Brawl tournament that I am hosting sometime this week for me and my friends.

The reason for this isn't that we will stop playing Melee, quite the contrary, I think we will play both games equally, because in my opinion (a player striving to become better competitively), both games kick ***.

Granted, I play more Brawl than Melee because I (*gasp*) don't actually own Melee. But I still love both games, otherwise I would sit there and the angry and claim that one of the two sucks. I am not like that, I see both games weaknesses and strengths (grammar error?), and this can enjoy both. =)

It's okay to NOT like Brawl or Melee, but let's just wait and see. Who knows, maybe Brawls future can't be predicted.

 

[IrArby]

I see both games weaknesses and strengths (grammar error?), and this can enjoy both. =)

What are the weaknesses of Melee? I see them not!

 

[arrowhead]

What are the weaknesses of Melee? I see them not!

melee is too good

 

[peeup]

What are the weaknesses of Melee? I see them not!

When I play melee, I seem to notice that some of my favorite characters (ROB, Olimar, Pokemon Trainer, Wario) are all missing. Also, some of my favorite stages (Delfino Plaza, Smashville, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island) are absent aswell. Hmm, maybe brawl does have some things that melee doesn't...

 

[Zankoku]

Melee has red shells. Brawl does not.

Melee >>>> Brawl.

 

[IrArby]

When I play melee, I seem to notice that some of my favorite characters (ROB, Olimar, Pokemon Trainer, Wario) are all missing. Also, some of my favorite stages (Delfino Plaza, Smashville, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island) are absent aswell. Hmm, maybe brawl does have some things that melee doesn't...

Yea Brawl totally has in depth - stage play. Stage play >>>>> than Gameplay. (This would be sarcasm)

Personally, I think Olimar was a terrible character to put in a Smash game. He doesn't look like he belongs at all. I love Geno from Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars (check the avatar) but Geno would simply NOT work in Brawl. Wario is a good choice IMO since he's actually a classic Nintendo character very similar to Mario/Luigi but PokeTrainer? He's alright but thats simply IMO.

I know I'm bout to piss Brawl fans off but (as has been stated and discussed in the Brawl vs. Melee Balance thread) the characters all feel very similar because of the physics engine. Plus you don't have to learn different timings for every character just to Dashdance, Shffl aerials, wavedash, etc. The characters are very different aesthically but they feel similar but you don't have to really learn the characters like Melee. Brawl characters have less distinction in that respect. Thats I like about characters not so much who they are but how cool there gameplay is. Only reason I like Ike since in reality he's not so great.

Therefore Melee has no objective mistakes. LOL

 

[Airwalkerr]

Yea Brawl totally has in depth - stage play. Stage play >>>>> than Gameplay. (This would be sarcasm)

Personally, I think Olimar was a terrible character to put in a Smash game. He doesn't look like he belongs at all. I love Geno from Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars (check the avatar) but Geno would simply NOT work in Brawl. Wario is a good choice IMO since he's actually a classic Nintendo character very similar to Mario/Luigi but PokeTrainer? He's alright but thats simply IMO.

I know I'm bout to piss Brawl fans off but (as has been stated and discussed in the Brawl vs. Melee Balance thread) the characters all feel very similar because of the physics engine. Plus you don't have to learn different timings for every character just to Dashdance, Shffl aerials, wavedash, etc. The characters are very different aesthically but they feel similar but you don't have to really learn the characters like Melee. Brawl characters have less distinction in that respect. Thats I like about characters not so much who they are but how cool there gameplay is. Only reason I like Ike since in reality he's not so great.

Therefore Melee has no objective mistakes. LOL

I see where you come from, but I disagree. Every character plays differently. They all have different moves, different weight, speed, you name it. The new physics engine really has no effect on HOW they play. You can't just pick up Zelda, and play her with your MK tactics. You'd get rocked. Nor do many chracters play the same. They are all individual, and not merely different aesthetically. Thats just what I drew from your point. And on to the topic at hand.

I agree with Gimpyfish, on the point that Brawl will progress backwards. And THAT, my friends, is why development has already started on Smash 4. Theres a thread here on the site somewhere, I'll link it in an edit when i find it. Sakurai knew he screwed up the depth of the game as soon as it was released, he came prepared lol.

 

[RegalBuster]

even ginmpyfish cant get over the fact that this is not melee 2.0

And that's a great thing.

 

[AlphaZealot]

First, wouldn't it be a problem to hinder yourself, consciously, throughout a match to avoid tripping? I mean, it doesn't matter if you didn't trip in a match, if you lost it. Personally, I hate tripping, but if I tripped four times in a match and won because the other person was going out of his way to avoid tripping, I still won. Just a consideration.

Secondly, what point have we reached in a game's franchise when you are focused, somewhat, more on the avoidance of bad gameplay mechanics than the fight itself? If you played Halo having to constantly worry about tripping, I hardly doubt people would defend the idea of "playing smart" and avoiding tripping. If you tripped at full speed in that game and you didn't when you crouch walked, it would be just as hindering in Brawl. And would someone have the right to say that you aren't playing smart if you don't constantly crouch walk or at least half the time? No.

What I was saying is that you can minimize tripping and play effectively. A player who only does one (play effectively) but ignores the other (minimizing tripping) would be the less wise one. Yes, it sucks having to take such things into account, but if I win a match because you didn't take the same precautions I did, then it wasn't the tripping that caused your death, it was poor play.

Also, Ankoku, if your see this, givin Bowser's infinite grab (whether or not its fully confirmed, lets say it is), should it be banned?

 

[Zankoku]

Tough choice. I might want to softban it on the grounds that, at about 1% damage a second, it's closer to an infinite stall than an infinite into KO. But I'd have to see Bowser players start winning big matches they shouldn't solely because they started abusing the tactic before I'd go and rule for an actual ban.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Melee has red shells. Brawl does not.

Melee >>>> Brawl.

It's also missing the Parasol, which is absolutely essential for Falcon Parasol Frenzy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuP2XAEQeBE:laugh:

 

[Yukiwarashi]

I see where you come from, but I disagree. Every character plays differently. They all have different moves, different weight, speed, you name it. The new physics engine really has no effect on HOW they play. You can't just pick up Zelda, and play her with your MK tactics. You'd get rocked. Nor do many chracters play the same. They are all individual, and not merely different aesthetically. Thats just what I drew from your point. And on to the topic at hand.

I agree with Gimpyfish, on the point that Brawl will progress backwards. And THAT, my friends, is why development has already started on Smash 4. Theres a thread here on the site somewhere, I'll link it in an edit when i find it. Sakurai knew he screwed up the depth of the game as soon as it was released, he came prepared lol.

Um....development has not started on Smash 4. I don't know how you came to this conclusion, but you're wrong.

 

[IrArby]

I see where you come from, but I disagree. Every character plays differently. They all have different moves, different weight, speed, you name it. The new physics engine really has no effect on HOW they play. You can't just pick up Zelda, and play her with your MK tactics. You'd get rocked. Nor do many chracters play the same. They are all individual, and not merely different aesthetically. Thats just what I drew from your point. And on to the topic at hand.QUOTE]

My point is more pertaining to the feel of chars rather than which moves you use more often and exactly how you set up for them. The "different moves, different weight, speed, you name it" part isn't at all unique to the smash series so no surprises there. The physics engine doesn't effect what moves they have but it does kill everyone's momentum when they run and jump.
Exactly how fast/high someone jumps matters alot more when you've got to wavedash. There are many more specific examples I could get into but my point is that I tend to like a character more if I like thier in-depth gameplay style. The person I orinally quoted did not specify why he liked Olimar,Wario, etc but I can tell you why I love Melee Marth, Falcon, Falco, Y.Link and I'm going under the assumption that my reasons would have more substance to support them where as he was sort of just showing favoritism without explicit objective reasons. Not that identifying with how cool you think your main looks isn't important cause it is but thats simply not enough for me. Melee Ness is a cool char but his advanced gameplay doesn't interset me.