Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Bocom]

What are the weaknesses of Melee? I see them not!

Melee isn't "the perfect game" for me, and neither is Brawl. They are the perfect Smash game for me, together, not apart.

Melees weaknesses (please remember that these things ARE MY OPINIONS, you will obviously think otherwise) are mostly character issues. For example, Captain Falcons sideB in the air stops all momentum and airmovement on a hit, and also leaves you in a helpless state, and since I don't have perfect control, I accidently hit sideB when I want upB sometimes, and thus fall to my doom. And then of course there's wobbling for instance. I could go on, but what's the point?

Also, one weakness Melee has (for me in Sweden) is that there's no tournaments newar me and I simply can't find the game ANYWHERE. >_< (Not a real weakness, duh. )

Don't get me wrong, Melee has advantages that makes the weaknesses seem bleak, but for me, Brawl does the same thing, just differently, and that's more or less why I like both games: They're both Smash, but oh so different. And I just like variety. =)

 

[Corigames]

Response

I know you said it's your opinion what you think the weaknesses are, but I'm going to argue anyway. (Slow news night here on the boards )

Captain Falcons sideB in the air stops all momentum and airmovement on a hit, and also leaves you in a helpless state, and since I don't have perfect control, I accidently hit sideB when I want upB sometimes, and thus fall to my doom.

So one of the weaknesses is that he has an OK move for the ground but that move is pretty bad in the air. Ok, that's not a big problem. The rest of it is just you complaining about your own inabilities. >_>

And then of course there's wobbling for instance. I could go on, but what's the point?

Wobbling is the only infinite in melee on tournament stages. It is very difficult to do and requires certain conditions to be met (certain percent to start, nana has to be nearby, you have to have them de-synchronized, you have to have the right rhythm and preform the right combo of moves). Wobbling is far from easy, plus it requires you to get grabbed, which, if you have played ice climbers at all, you avoid happening like your life depended on it just for their normal grab abilities!

Yes, please go on because you have yet to highlight a "weakness."

Also, one weakness Melee has (for me in Sweden) is that there's no tournaments newar me and I simply can't find the game ANYWHERE. >_< (Not a real weakness, duh. )

Yeah, not really. That's a failure on the COMMUNITY, and one that I agree with. There hasn't been a good melee tournament in AZ in about 5 months, which is about the time that other game was released.

Don't get me wrong, Melee has advantages that makes the weaknesses seem bleak, but for me, Brawl does the same thing, just differently, and that's more or less why I like both games: They're both Smash, but oh so different. And I just like variety. =)

Melee has so many advantages over Brawl, it's not funny. They are both Smash, and I also like variety. So why not just stick with melee and play Mario Kart 64, Metroid Prime, or maybe play other fighters like Soul Caliber, Street Fighter, or Guilty Gear? This way you can keep the variety and still be playing at least good games.

 

[IrArby]

So coreygames since discussion is dead here: What are the ATs in MarioKart 64? I already crush my friends but they are by no means competitive gamers.

I main Peach in MarioKart 64. She's got to be at least high tier.

 

[GI Josh]

If brawl does have backwards progression, wouldn't that mean that a lot of people would go back to Melee?

 

[IrArby]

If brawl does have backwards progression, wouldn't that mean that a lot of people would go back to Melee?

Not neccesarily but hopefully. It could just ultimately kill competitive Smash altogether. I doubt most people new to Smash trying to play Brawl competitively are going to get bored with Brawl's lame progression, stop playing it, and go back to Melee since many have never tried Melee competitively. Those persons may just get bored with Brawl as a fighter (as many smashers coming from Melee already have) and move on to a completely different fighter series. The 3 possible outcomes that I see are:

1. Brawl survives and stays competitive. I deem this to be unlikely especially over a span of 2 years or more.

2. Brawl players get tired of the game but can't go back to Melee since they were never there or its simply too late. I don't think local Melee tournaments will die any time soon but major tournaments very well might in this case.

3. The New Brawlers take our advice and give Melee a try. There is some evidence to support this since many Brawlers with join dates over the last few months are now posting in the Melee boards allbeit woefully behind Melee smashers. They may grow tired of Brawl or simply discover Melee which allows for the many Melee smashers playing Brawl to get a shot at going back to Melee which is in many people's opinion better. In this scenario Melee gets the revival that I personally have been hoping for. This and the 2nd option are the ones I deem to be most likely. Unfortunately, I must admit the 2nd looks most plausible of those two.

 

[Fletch]

Not neccesarily but hopefully. It could just ultimately kill competitive Smash altogether. I doubt most people new to Smash trying to play Brawl competitively are going to get bored with Brawl's lame progression, stop playing it, and go back to Melee since many have never tried Melee competitively. Those persons may just get bored with Brawl as a fighter (as many smashers coming from Melee already have) and move on to a completely different fighter series. The 3 possible outcomes that I see are:

1. Brawl survives and stays competitive. I deem this to be unlikely especially over a span of 2 years or more.

2. Brawl players get tired of the game but can't go back to Melee since they were never there or its simply too late. I don't think local Melee tournaments will die any time soon but major tournaments very well might in this case.

3. The New Brawlers take our advice and give Melee a try. There is some evidence to support this since many Brawlers with join dates over the last few months are now posting in the Melee boards allbeit woefully behind Melee smashers. They may grow tired of Brawl or simply discover Melee which allows for the many Melee smashers playing Brawl to get a shot at going back to Melee which is in many people's opinion better. In this scenario Melee gets the revival that I personally have been hoping for. This and the 2nd option are the ones I deem to be most likely. Unfortunately, I must admit the 2nd looks most plausible of those two.

That's why we need to keep fighting the good fight to allow #3 to have a chance of happening.

 

[The Trump Card]

I think the problem is that we're trying to hard to make Brawl like Melee and eventurally we'll face repercussions for "trying too hard". I think Melee is naturally more competive than Brawl, but who knows what the future holds.

 

[Corigames]

So coreygames since discussion is dead here: What are the ATs in MarioKart 64? I already crush my friends but they are by no means competitive gamers.

I main Peach in MarioKart 64. She's got to be at least high tier.

Obviously, power sliding. It's the most basic AT in the game and will be the one to maximize your game to the highest. Getting boosts on every turn is a HUGE helper as well as on certain straight-ways.

Another obvious one is holding the items you have behind you. This will stop incoming shells and people. It's a big help for anyone.

There are a few tricks with bananas that are very nice. First, if someone is coming up right behind you, instead of waiting for them to hit you, you can drop the banana. It will pop it in the air a little bit and the person will spin out like normal, except the banana will still be there for someone else to slip on! Another banana trick is to set them at the edge of boost spots. Normally, if you set a banana ON the boost spot, it won't spin someone out, it'll just kill the banana. However, if you put the banana at the front edge of the boost spot, they will hit the banana and spin out off of the boost pad, effectively making them loose all their speed. (Best on Peach's raceway )

Of course there are the shortcuts like jumping the wall on Luigi raceway Wario Stadium. There is the glitch where you can back up at the start of a match and go out of bounds and get placed back behind the start and complete the lap.

You can use the lightning in special places (like jumps or hairpin turns over holes) to spin people out over the edge easily. It's more of just using it right than an AT, but I still think it's more advanced.

Heavy people can slam into lighter people and spin them out. This is good for when a heavy hits someone with a shell, because they can follow that up by ramming people! It's a good combo.

I'm sure I missed a lot, but I think this shows my point... also, this is just stuff I know, I bet there is a wiki full of this ****.

 

[IrArby]

Cool. I was aware of most of those and actually took the time to look up some stuff yesterday. The only really new stuff was stage glitches like the driving off the side at Frappe Snowland kind of stuff. I wouldn't want to get into that stuff seriously but all the item tricks and cool psuedo mindgames you can do with them in races/battles is all up for grabs.

They really aren't ATs as you said, I think, since most of them I learned just from playing whereas years of playing NonAT Melee taught me nothing about ATs. Thanks for the info though. I actually played MarioKart 64 earlier today just to get reaquainted.

 

[Corigames]

Hey, like I said, I haven't ever met someone who could beat me in it yet. Perhaps there is one person in the world... out there...

 

[Red Exodus]

Man I played Brawl with some people yesterday and they were all ********. First they thought they were the best [the guy with the biggest mouth was using a Wiimote with one bar of battery left], they were playing FFA, so I'm thinking "how do they know who's the best when it's just a random brawl?", they didn't have every character yet, so I couldn't go with Snake [2nd main] so I went with MK and I won [FFA] then the wiimote dude takes me one on one, I 2 stock him then this other dude who's 'the best' comes on with Marth and I proceed to lay a beatdown on his ***, take one stock, gimp another then he looks over at me and sees me using the c-stick and freaks out, he quits the match and goes "HUURRRR DURRRRR I DON'T PLAY THAT C-STICK CRAP! HURRRR DURRR" then people go "He uses C-stick!? Heretic!" and I just sat there surrounded by scrubs who can tolerate WDing, JCing, chaingrabs, pivots, dance dancing and edgehogging [some used to play melee] but they couldn't stand the fact that I use the c-stick for aerials and quick smashes out of shields. Then while this crap is going on the wiimote dude comes back for 1 vs 1 and gets my damage high while the scrub that quit is *****ing about how I use the C-stick [even though I mainly edgeguarded him in the air] so I lose a stock early and come back to even the score, I lost the match but I got the guy to 134% so in my book it was a close match and a good comeback after I had to deal with the scrubs BAAWWWing in my ears.

After that we went back to FFA and they proceed to gang up on me several times [when I switched to other characters] but I don't say a word, I just switched back to MK and taught them a lesson for being such douchebags. Needless to say I won't be playing those guys again because even if I do win I'm a C-sticker which means it doesn't count. Where people get these ******** rules I'll never know but I just thought I'd share my experience in scrubdom. I would have taken on those guys in Melee but they think Brawl takes more skill than Melee so it's a lost cause.

 

[Takeshi245]

Wow, those guys are horrible, Red Exodus. I dislike arrogant scrubs as well. LOL at that guy using the Wiimote with one battery left. And I just played Melee today. I have a ways to go before getting back to my original skill level.

 

[RDK]

I've learned that in Brawl tournaments, unless you go MK or Snake the whole way through, you're not going to win (dependant on the skill level of your matchups and the size of the actual tourney).

If you're a good player, and you're playing someone who is even close to your skill range who plays as MK or Snake, you have no chance when playing with a character in the bottom or low-mid tiers.

 

[Takeshi245]

I've learned that in Brawl tournaments, unless you go MK or Snake the whole way through, you're not going to win (dependant on the skill level of your matchups and the size of the actual tourney).

If you're a good player, and you're playing someone who is even close to your skill range who plays as MK or Snake, you have no chance when playing with a character in the bottom or low-mid tiers.

Well, that's how tiers are. If a person's even or better than you and they're using a better character, you're going to lose. Better characters beat inferior characters just like better players beat lesser skilled players. It's just how it is.

 

[Zankoku]

I've learned that in Brawl tournaments, unless you go MK or Snake the whole way through, you're not going to win (dependant on the skill level of your matchups and the size of the actual tourney).

If you're a good player, and you're playing someone who is even close to your skill range who plays as MK or Snake, you have no chance when playing with a character in the bottom or low-mid tiers.

Meta Knight and Snake are pretty much huge "easy mode" copouts that will sweep their way through a large number of low-level players. There is a small number of matchups where Meta Knight is at a disadvantage, though I'm not sure about Snake. Either way, it's basically like this - Brawl has a super Melee Sheik and a super Melee Marth, which still won't get a noob to win but they'll get a lot farther simply because of the character choice.

 

[thumbswayup]

Man I played Brawl with some people yesterday and they were all ********. First they thought they were the best [the guy with the biggest mouth was using a Wiimote with one bar of battery left], they were playing FFA, so I'm thinking "how do they know who's the best when it's just a random brawl?", they didn't have every character yet, so I couldn't go with Snake [2nd main] so I went with MK and I won [FFA] then the wiimote dude takes me one on one, I 2 stock him then this other dude who's 'the best' comes on with Marth and I proceed to lay a beatdown on his ***, take one stock, gimp another then he looks over at me and sees me using the c-stick and freaks out, he quits the match and goes "HUURRRR DURRRRR I DON'T PLAY THAT C-STICK CRAP! HURRRR DURRR" then people go "He uses C-stick!? Heretic!" and I just sat there surrounded by scrubs who can tolerate WDing, JCing, chaingrabs, pivots, dance dancing and edgehogging [some used to play melee] but they couldn't stand the fact that I use the c-stick for aerials and quick smashes out of shields. Then while this crap is going on the wiimote dude comes back for 1 vs 1 and gets my damage high while the scrub that quit is *****ing about how I use the C-stick [even though I mainly edgeguarded him in the air] so I lose a stock early and come back to even the score, I lost the match but I got the guy to 134% so in my book it was a close match and a good comeback after I had to deal with the scrubs BAAWWWing in my ears.

After that we went back to FFA and they proceed to gang up on me several times [when I switched to other characters] but I don't say a word, I just switched back to MK and taught them a lesson for being such douchebags. Needless to say I won't be playing those guys again because even if I do win I'm a C-sticker which means it doesn't count. Where people get these ******** rules I'll never know but I just thought I'd share my experience in scrubdom. I would have taken on those guys in Melee but they think Brawl takes more skill than Melee so it's a lost cause.

Those people need to die.

 

[ThaRoy]

I think that the Brawl tournament scene will begin to go upwards and then suddenly halt before then booming upwards. My reason for this is simple: people claim that Brawl is not competitive. However, the dedication to MAKE this game so competitive is unbelievable. The want is so high to the point that people are spending time to truly make this game actually competitive is just mind busting. At this point, people will reach desperate and actually discover that they can't make a game competitive and then the remaining population will begin to deteriorate. Then, suddenly the game will make a return and people will find it fun and actually translate the mainstream to competitive play and then stop taking the game for granted.

That's what I see.

 

[IrArby]

So wait, people who are trying so hard to make it competitive will fail, the "remaining population will begin to deteriorate", and then the game will reemerge competitively but only after people start playing it for fun which allows them to learn how to play competitively?

I'm not big on fighting games in general but I'm quite sure that the way people fight casually doesn't translate or carry over very well competitively in any fighting game. Not only is Brawl not meant to be played competitively but it is meant to be played Non-competitively. That is to say the game is designed to be played in a strictly non-competitively fashion. Someone quoted this paragraph from Sakurai into their Sig which said something to the effect of wavedashing was removed because he (Sakurai) had noticed a growing gap between Pro and Ametuer smashers. When the time came to decrease the gap in Brawl they naturally thought of dumping wavedashing to make it fairer. Think back to E for All where they at least had dashdancing. It is no more.

Brawl is not a competitive game and the only reason people try to make it so is because 64 and Melee were. Now can everyone trying to play a competitive Smash game drop Brawl and play Melee. Theres a huge difference between trying to play the game in a way its not intended (Melee) and playing the game in a completely opposite way in which the game was intended (Brawl). If your tying to play Brawl competitively your quite literally playing against the game itself.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've learned that in Brawl tournaments, unless you go MK or Snake the whole way through, you're not going to win (dependant on the skill level of your matchups and the size of the actual tourney).

If you're a good player, and you're playing someone who is even close to your skill range who plays as MK or Snake, you have no chance when playing with a character in the bottom or low-mid tiers.

If this is true and MK and Snake are overcentralizing the game wouldn't that be on the grounds for a ban?

The thing is that it isn't necessarily true because there are characters other than MK and Snake who have won tournaments and the two characters have been shown to have characters whom they do poorly against (most notably DK).

Yes it is true that currently MK and Snake are indeed dominating the tournament scene (since they ar e agood 200 points above everyone else in terms of tournamentw ins), however they haven't completely shut out all the other characters.

I do understand what you mean though because if I go up against a Snake and I lose I only have my 1 CP to go DK. (assuming best 2 out of 3)
In which case after I win (assuming I win since I don't believe DK is as great a counter for snake as they make him out to be IMO) the opponent is capable of CPing my character in which case I will most likely lose (since matchups have a greater effect).

I suppose it can be said that while they aren't a case of Akuma in SF2 where no one could beat him, they are indirectly forcing the game so that unless you are Snake or MK that first round you'll probably get boned.

Mainly because you'll be FORCED to counterpick DK, ROB or Pika and once you win (since I don't believe any of theme except maybe ROB are hard counters for Snake) you're pretty much boned once your opponent CP's you.

But thats assuming you don't decide to just choose DK, Pika,ROB during the first round.

Blargh what the heck do I know...

Not only is Brawl not meant to be played competitively but it is meant to be played Non-competitively. That is to say the game is designed to be played in a strictly non-competitively fashion. Someone quoted this paragraph from Sakurai into their Sig which said something to the effect of wavedashing was removed because he (Sakurai) had noticed a growing gap between Pro and Ametuer smashers. When the time came to decrease the gap in Brawl they naturally thought of dumping wavedashing to make it fairer. Think back to E for All where they at least had dashdancing. It is no more.

I don't believe they had dash dancing either.
The demo released was more or less complete.
in anycase of course Brawl as not meant to be competitive.
But neither were Smash 64 or Melee. The games were party first fighting second.
They just happened to capable of being played competitively.

Brawl is not a competitive game and the only reason people try to make it so is because 64 and Melee were.

They were MADE competitive they weren't competitive games out the box.
It took over 5 years before we had melee become what it was.
For 64 it took a good amount of time as ell.
The competitive community MADE it competitive, it wasn't like the games were like melty blood and guilty gear XX where all the characters were very well balanced and was geared for the competitive community. (seriously ahve you seen the instruction manual for melty blood? Definitely meant for competitive players)

Brawl isn't meant to be competitive but it can be played competitively.
It is less shallow than melee but this does not necessarily mean its not comnpetitive.
Nor have any n00bs won any tournaments.
While the skill gap wasn't as emphasized in melee that doesn't mean it was removed either.

Now can everyone trying to play a competitive Smash game drop Brawl and play Melee.

No.
You're basically doing the same effect as brawl ***s who say, go back to melee!

For one I like Brawl.
I shouldn't be FORCED to choose one or the other.
I like being able to hyphen smash, spinshot, and a few other things.
However I also dislike the fact we have tripping, lack of hitstun and lesser shield stun.
Brawl can be played competitively, that is a fact.
It CANNOT however it cannot be compared to melee in terms of depth concerning competitive play.

By the way I also like melee, (mainly since i am a Link main and the transition from melee Link to Brawl Link really saddened me).

Theres a huge difference between trying to play the game in a way its not intended (Melee) and playing the game in a completely opposite way in which the game was intended (Brawl). If your tying to play Brawl competitively your quite literally playing against the game itself.

I am sorry but for the love of godand all that is holy as well as my sanity, STOP PUSHING MELEE AS IF IT WERE A COMPETITIVE GAME!
GUILTY GEAR XX WAS COMPETITIVE!
MELTY BLOOD WAS COMPETITIVE!
Arrgh!
/anger.

If you play melee competitively you go against the game itself.
If you play 64 competitively you are going against the game itself.
If you play brawl competitively you are going against the game itself.

These games were NOT. MEANT. TO BE COMPETITIVE!
That is a fact that cannot be argued otherwise.
Simple as that, the competitive ability was not an integral part of the game.

These games were party first fighting second competitive third.

 

[IrArby]

Shadow Link: I won't try to multiquote all of that its just to much trouble.

First off, and this is to refute several paragraphs, Melee is not meant to be competitve though its possible. Brawl is meant to be NON-Competitive. Big difference. They went out of their way to take the competitive elements from Melee out of Brawl.

They didn't have the intention of making Melee competitive yea I get it no ****, but they didn't approach Melee in such a way to take out elements that could be used competitively. They did NOT approach the game that way. In short, they weren't purposefully trying to take out competitive elements. With Brawl they were.

Melee=Niether For or Against Competitive Play.
Brawl=Against Competitive Play.

You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I'm not saying Melee is meant to be a Competitive Fighter but its not meant NOT to be either. Brawl is meant NOT to be a Competitive Fighter.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure I was right about E for All having Dashdance and the Final Release not.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Shadow Link: I won't try to multiquote all of that its just to much trouble.

First off, and this is to refute several paragraphs, Melee is not meant to be competitve though its possible.-

Possible how?
Everything in melee points to it being otherwise.
The fact that the characters are less balanced than in 64 points to this, the fact FFA's and items exist points to this.

Brawl is meant to be NON-Competitive. Big difference. They went out of their way to take the competitive elements from Melee out of Brawl.

Except I am arguing that melee and 64 were not intended to be competitive either.

They didn't have the intention of making Melee competitive yea I get it no ****,but they didn't approach Melee in such a way to take out elements that could be used competitively. They did NOT approach the game that way. In short, they weren't purposefully trying to take out competitive elements. With Brawl they were.

Of course not. The competitive community in 64 was smaller than that of melee.
The designers of the game were forced to see the fact that these games were being played competitively.
It asn't as if there was a small community anymore it was a large community.
Since they changed things from melee to brawl that points to melee being intended for casual play

You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I'm not saying Melee is meant to be a Competitive Fighter but its not meant NOT to be either. Brawl is meant NOT to be a Competitive Fighter.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure I was right about E for All having Dashdance and the Final Release not.

Would gimpyfish know?

Anyway as I said before the fact that they removed the competitive elements from melee to brawl points to melee being intended as a non competitive game.
It isn't that melee was neutral, its the fact that they had changed several elements from melee to brawl.

All the competitive elements were unforeseen, the competitive community was not as large in 64 than it was in melee. Sakurai had to have noticed it during that time after melee was created. Or simply thought little until after the community grew once melee had been made.

The mainstream gamers (which were casual) were always the ones thought of first not competitive. The competitive elements in melee and 64 just happened to be there.

If I were to guess I would say Sakurai had noticed a small competitive community but thought nothing of it and so when designing melee only a few things were changed. Yet when he saw competitive gamers were actually having an impact and creating gameplay that was beyond that of his original party game, he ***** brawl.

If Sakurai had the foresight to see what would happen to melee I guarantee he would have changed melee to act like Brawl.

Which is why I often pummel his Kirby characters repeatedly in training mode since the changed from melee to brawl aggravate me.

 

[Pink Reaper]

DD was in E for All demo, I played it(With Gimpy )

Sakurai himself said that he purposefully removed elements like Directional Air Dodging to decrease the competitiveness of Brawl. He believes that people care too much about winning and not enough about "Fun." Unfortunately, alot of people actually enjoy winning, so Im entirely confused as to what that statement is supposed to mean. Maybe Sakurai is some closetn S&M masochist who enjoys losing, idk.

Keep in mind that Sakurai was very aware of the competitive smash scene, so it would actually be easy for him to remove elements that competitive smashers used, because he actually knew what they were.

 

[arrowhead]

Keep in mind that Sakurai was very aware of the competitive smash scene, so it would actually be easy for him to remove elements that competitive smashers used, because he actually knew what they were.

and this is why i want to gouge his eyes out with a popsicle stick

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im still much more of a fan of tripping him of the top of a building and yelling, "YOU MUST RECOVER."

 

[arrowhead]

Im still much more of a fan of tripping him of the top of a building and yelling, "YOU MUST RECOVER."

and then we can all have a good hearty laugh at the sillyness of it all

 

[Smash G 0 D]

/sigh. It's people like Shadowlink and Pink Reaper that make me wish SWF still had rep..

that way I could -rep SL and +rep PR



Melee = had potential to be a competitive game. That was made clearly obvious once it BECAME a competitive game.

 

[RDK]

If this is true and MK and Snake are overcentralizing the game wouldn't that be on the grounds for a ban?

Not necessarily. They're good; even ridiculously good, but tantalizingly short of warranting a ban. It's not a Soul Calibur situation, but Snake and MK are still annoyingly overwhelming in almost all aspects of their play.

The thing is that it isn't necessarily true because there are characters other than MK and Snake who have won tournaments and the two characters have been shown to have characters whom they do poorly against (most notably DK).

Yes, but they're still ridiculously overpowered. These people who have been winning tournaments with notoriously bad characters, or even mid-to-high-tiers won't stack up when they're forced to go toe to toe with, say, PC Chris or Cort playing as Snake, or M2K if he chooses to go Metaknight. You have to look at the true potential of all of the characters compared to one another. Snake and MK surpass basically everyone else, and there's an enormous gap between them and the rest of the roster.

I do understand what you mean though because if I go up against a Snake and I lose I only have my 1 CP to go DK. (assuming best 2 out of 3)
In which case after I win (assuming I win since I don't believe DK is as great a counter for snake as they make him out to be IMO) the opponent is capable of CPing my character in which case I will most likely lose (since matchups have a greater effect).

Part of knowing your matchups and counterpicking effectively are what makes good players great. The thing with Braw, though, is MK has only a few matchups where he's at a disadvantage (not a COMPLETE disadvantage--but his normal tricks won't work so well), and Snake is virtually indestructable.

I suppose it can be said that while they aren't a case of Akuma in SF2 where no one could beat him, they are indirectly forcing the game so that unless you are Snake or MK that first round you'll probably get boned.

Snake, to me, is like Akuma on slow-motion. No, Snake can't force corner the other player with double-aerial fireballs, and he can't space hadoukens into a controlled projectile that he can easily manipulate the other player into hitting. However, Snake has the ability to control the stage to the point where some matches are just pointless. The guy's a fortress. Anything you do or try will become ineffectual after a certain amount of time, given that the Snake player is half-decent at adapting and predicting what formula of attack you're going to use. With Snake, it basically comes down to playing defensively and using mindgames, while battering your opponent with projectiles and forcing them to approach.

 

[Pink Reaper]

/sigh. It's people like Shadowlink and Pink Reaper that make me wish SWF still had rep..

that way I could -rep SL and +rep PR



Melee = had potential to be a competitive game. That was made clearly obvious once it BECAME a competitive game.

Lol, I'd have so much negative rep after the "Up B" thing.

Grats on SBR btw, I know you've had it for a while, Ive just been lazy. Same to you if you read this Ankoku.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not necessarily. They're good; even ridiculously good, but tantalizingly short of warranting a ban. It's not a Soul Calibur situation, but Snake and MK are still annoyingly overwhelming in almost all aspects of their play.

Of course, I know MK and Snake aren't bannable by any means unless snake and MK had some AT that made them deal with their disadvantaged matchups and make them neutral.

Yes, but they're still ridiculously overpowered. These people who have been winning tournaments with notoriously bad characters, or even mid-to-high-tiers won't stack up when they're forced to go toe to toe with, say, PC Chris or Cort playing as Snake, or M2K if he chooses to go Metaknight. You have to look at the true potential of all of the characters compared to one another. Snake and MK surpass basically everyone else, and there's an enormous gap between them and the rest of the roster.

I agree, if I am a Sonic I will never be capable of facing off against an MK whose skill is as good or even slightly lesser than my own.
Everyone mentioned how a Bowser made 2nd in a tournament, that will most likely not happen again for a very long time.

Once we've reached that high level of play (which is becoming more and more apparent) it really is going to be an MK /Snake tournament because no one will really have any reason to bother with the other characters.
Not if there is money on the island.
Maybe DK to counter Snake and MK but otherwise there won't be much deviation.
its like melee just with a much greater gap in the tiers.

Part of knowing your matchups and counterpicking effectively are what makes good players great. The thing with Brawl, though, is MK has only a few matchups where he's at a disadvantage (not a COMPLETE disadvantage--but his normal tricks won't work so well), and Snake is virtually indestructable.

I think the only characters shown to have an advantage against snake are DK, ROB, Olimar (arguably neutral).
There are maybe one or two more but thats it and even those are arguably neutral as well.

Even then in melee counterpicking was never as necessary in melee as it is in brawl.
In melee there werent as many hard counters for a character and even if he encountered someone who was a soft counter he could still win.

A Link could destroy a Fox and Marth.

Now however if you encounter someone who is a soft counter you are going to have a tough time.

With snake unless you are one of those select few (in a cast of 39) you are pretty much going to lose.
So you're basically being forced into choosing so and so character if you want to win.

Snake, to me, is like Akuma on slow-motion. No, Snake can't force corner the other player with double-aerial fireballs, and he can't space hadoukens into a controlled projectile that he can easily manipulate the other player into hitting. However, Snake has the ability to control the stage to the point where some matches are just pointless. The guy's a fortress. Anything you do or try will become ineffectual after a certain amount of time, given that the Snake player is half-decent at adapting and predicting what formula of attack you're going to use. With Snake, it basically comes down to playing defensively and using mindgames, while battering your opponent with projectiles and forcing them to approach.

Exactly and even if a character could approach, there just is no method to keep the advantage against Snake. Lack of hitstun and shieldstun means he'll counter your attacks while you are still attacking (I've gotten hit during a jab combo that should not be happening).
IMO I really would like to see Snake and MK ban if only temporarily so that the other characters would become more tournament viable.

Moreso Snake since I am no fan of invisible hitboxes and stupidly formed ones.

Me: Yes I am out of ran- GAH! *gets ko'ed by Utilt*
Me: okay *Fsmashes snake from behind but is blocked by jab* WTF HE'S NOT EVEN FACING ME!

Yeah that sums up my experiences with snake.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'm kind of annoyed that MK is top tier, it makes me look like some sort of tier whole [I started off Melee with Fox as my main, go figure]. I don't plan to switch mains but the thought will always be lingering in the back of my mind because I'm playing with an overpowered character. So much for good balance.

 

[ShadowLink84]

DD was in E for All demo, I played it(With Gimpy )

Sakurai himself said that he purposefully removed elements like Directional Air Dodging to decrease the competitiveness of Brawl. He believes that people care too much about winning and not enough about "Fun." Unfortunately, alot of people actually enjoy winning, so Im entirely confused as to what that statement is supposed to mean. Maybe Sakurai is some closetn S&M masochist who enjoys losing, idk.

Keep in mind that Sakurai was very aware of the competitive smash scene, so it would actually be easy for him to remove elements that competitive smashers used, because he actually knew what they were.

Well I know he decreased the competitiveness of Brawl for hte sake of fun (I hadn't known about dash dancing though I thought it hadn't been in the demo like how CCing was removed unless that was there too in which cas emy mistake).

However I think in when 64 came out he didn't acknowledge the competitive community as he had when melee came out.
So when melee came out and the community grew Sakurai acknowledged what the competitive community had been doing and guessed that the community would continue to grow if Brawl was to retain the elements it had in melee.

So in an effort to retain the whole "fun" type of game he basically ***** brawl and removed all these elements.
I guess the demo as simply a means of finding what other competitive elements needed to be removed.

/sigh. It's people like Shadowlink and Pink Reaper that make me wish SWF still had rep..

that way I could -rep SL and +rep PR

But why the negative rep T_T
Make me sad it do.

Melee = had potential to be a competitive game. That was made clearly obvious once it BECAME a competitive game.

...
So I guess it means you misinterpreted what I had said.

I am not arguing about melee's potential to be a competitive game. If i mentioned melee's competitive potential it was because I stated that melee's competitive potential wasn't something that was intended during its making.

Nothing like Meltyblood or GG XX which come with a guide on how to dot he advanced tecnhniques as well as their pros and cons and how it promotes high level play.

I am arguing the intent when the game had been designed.
How it was originally intended to be played.
How the game was to be a party game.

How Sakurai took the game realized that it could be competitive and ***** it so that it would be geared towards casual play.
THat way the competitive community would be suppressed and prevented from growing.

Which is stupid since its the competitive community that actually helps promote the game into being bought since they are the most likely to buy the next game in the series when it comes out. (If rather).
That and I like being capable of comboing, its just that nice to punish people for spamming stupidly.

Melee had the potential of competitiveness, nothing is being argued about that fact.
Why would I state melee did not have potential to be competitive when it turned out to be?
That would be on par in saying homosexuality was not present in other species besides humans despite their being evidence of their being homosexual behavior.

Bad analogy but its 2:39 a.m. and I can't come up with anything better.

 

[IrArby]

ShadowLink84: No one is aruging about Nintendos intentions as to what 64, Melee, and Brawl were supposed to be. We get it they Fun, Fighting, and a little Competitive in that order specifically. But you said it yourself. With Melee the potential to be competitive was ruining what Sakurai dubbed to be "fun" so in Brawl, he removed it. All of it almost.

You also said yourself that Sakurai didn't acknowledge the 64 Competitive scene when completing Melee so that competitive stuff remained. This goes back to when I said Melee wasn't built to disallow competitive play. You said it yourself.

If you're playing 64 competitively you are not working against the game(physics engine and what not) In fact you're exploiting it in an unintended way but not wholly so.

If you're playing Melee competitively you are not working against the game(physics engine and what not). In fact you're exploiting game mechanics that allow you to move more fluidly and link hits together.

If you're trying to play Brawl competitively you're trying to play the game in an exact opposite fashion of the way Sakurai intended.

Going into 64 there was no Competitive Scene. Going into Melee there was what Sakurai considered a negligible competitive scene. Going into Brawl there was a Competitve Scene that Sakurai sought to get rid of. Brawl is made to be fun/non-competitive. Melee was made to be fun and didn't acknowledge ATs so they were left in the game. I don't know another simpler way to say it. Brawl is purposefully NOT competitive. This cannot be argued. The only attempts to curb Melee competitive potential was the removal of Link Bomb jumping and his Super Jump in the later versions.

 

[Corigames]

Your and you're are two different words for one...

 

[Red Exodus]

Sakurai just made the game worse altogether, FFAs are more OMG RANDUM than before, I didn't mind FFAs before but in Brawl they seem so oddly paced, maybe it's the people I played with or have seen playing [how do people get a 3 stock match to last 7 minutes?] but it's just not as good as back in SSB64 or Melee's FFA.

 

[ShadowLink84]

okay Arby my mistake then I misunderstood T_T

 

[IrArby]

ShadowLink84: Its cool. It was kinda hard explaining it which is why it took like 8 paragraphs to get the point across. For the most part were in agreement though. My only point that I think we disagreed on was the Brawl was made to be UnCompetitive.

coreygames: Fixed the your/you're. Any other mistakes you can point out later. Hope its readable now.

 

[ihatemybrother]

There is one thing that still puzzles me, if Sakurai is really aware of the competitive scene, then why not get rid of SDI, it serves NO purpose to the casual player, and it does create separation between skill levels. I truly doubt that 6 year old Johnny, while playing with his 60 year old grandma, would figure out, "Hey! I can alter my trajectory if I smash the control stick right after I get hit! Cool!"

Even Teching, let along short hopping. If Sakurai wanted to completely destroy the competitive scene, he has failed yet again.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't mind some of the changes in brawl/
Like the airdodge system isn't a big issue since it really helped some characters like Yoshi who previously had horrible recovery.
Granted its still very vulnerable but not as bad as last time.

I also liked the hyphen smash and DAC, both of which are good tools for the game.

Its just sad that we lost much of the universal AT's that helped make the game competitive.

L canceling helped balance things and DD and CC helped improve the overall offensive game.

We also lost hitstun and yeah you get where I am going.

I think brawl is competitive but it could have been as good as melee if they simply left things alone.
Frankly its why I plan hacking the game.

 

[IrArby]

Most of the time you don't need to tech. I'll try it alot of times but the hitstun isn't great enough to require it. The effectiveness of shorthopping has been nerfed with air momentum canceling, higher short hops in general, and broken shielding, Smash DI would be pretty hard to justify getting rid of and its alot less useful since you're probably gonna survive most attacks that send you offstage pretty easily so nerfing SDI isn't neccesary since the physics engine is already idiot proof enough.

 

[arrowhead]

SDI may just be an unintended result of programming DI anyways. taking it out would be extra work, but leaving it in does nothing to hurt gameplay