Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Sealock]

#1080 I find myself able to watch and enjoy both of those videos. I don't know if there's something wrong with me, but I read about 7 pages of this thread and it would seem I'm the only one with that point of view...

Sure, part of the reason it's easier to watch for me than Melee is that I don't know Melee the way Melee players know Melee, whereas Brawl doesn't require that kind of knowledge because there's less emerging gameplay and ATs, but that doesn't mean I could play the way top Brawl players can, just because I understand what they're doing. Perhaps someone could explain exactly why the projectile-based, defensive play I saw there is unfeasible at a competitive level, or generally uninteresting to competitive smashers?

 

[meta master]

the games only been out for a few months, its still to early to say that it will progress backwards. have we had any MAJOR tournments in which people (and i mean the "greatest" players) play against each other? there are still new techniques being found and the game has a bigger audience then melee with the Wii's success. this means more potential for new discoveries that could change the way the game plays.

 

[Zankoku]

have we had any MAJOR tournments in which people (and i mean the "greatest" players) play against each other?

TOURNAMENT: Critical Hit 3
LINK: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180664
DATE: July 05th, 2008
LOCALE: Atlantic North
ENTRANTS: around 110
ENTRY: $40
RESULTS:
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 Azen Zagenite (Lucario)
3 Chillindude829 (Falco)
4 NEO (Marth)
5 Forte (Meta Knight)
5 PC Chris (Snake)
7 Plank (Meta Knight)
7 DieSuperFly (Snake)

 

[arrowhead]

If you wouldn't be surprised then why do you want to know?

don't be lazy >_>

ankoku: wow brawl tournaments are starting to look a little more diverse

though it's still boring as hell to both play and watch XD

 

[Samochan]

Lots of Metas, many snakes, some marths and falco's, few dedede's and olimars, one lucario... seems about right.

 

[RDK]

TOURNAMENT: Critical Hit 3
LINK: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180664
DATE: July 05th, 2008
LOCALE: Atlantic North
ENTRANTS: around 110
ENTRY: $40
RESULTS:
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
2 Azen Zagenite (Lucario)
3 Chillindude829 (Falco)
4 NEO (Marth)
5 Forte (Meta Knight)
5 PC Chris (Snake)
7 Plank (Meta Knight)
7 DieSuperFly (Snake)

Christ, I love Azen. Lol @ PC getting 5th.

Also, wtf? Chillindude uses Falco now? =O

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No kidding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rrPlxpYaNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKUD0tFZvQU

2-3 month difference (too lazy to actually count xP)

Obviously degrading. Approaches cannot be found in either of those videos.

This doesn't prove a thing.

 

[System Failure 333]

I find that as it progresses, Brawl will become more of a mindgame then anything else, what with it becoming such a defensive game,which in my opinion is always entertaining to watch. And when a beast combo actually does happen, ppl will appreciate it so much more because of its possibly rare occurence

 

[metaXzero]

Brawl is reacting correctly. NOT MINDGAMES! Stop using that word.

 

[FalconPunch]

True. Brawl mindgames are too slow to fall for.

 

[furyberserk]

The worst part about Brawl is more than obvious when I say it, but when I noticed it, it really made me depressed. Brawl isn't just slower paced than Melee, but I think it is slower than Super Smash Bros. Even though the original had Z canceling, I never needed it to perform combos. I think that even if Brawl had combos, it would still be a little lacking. Having just a faster pace without combos would be okay also. Especially if they kept momentum. The no momentum is what actually nerf'd Captain Falcon, with the knee. Brawl just nerf'd 3 things that is needed most of all to make the game competitive.

The game may still have ways to evolve and get better by the players who like it like SSBO and SSBM, but because brawl is being looked at to descover what could possibly make it anywhere closer to melee in competitiveness, will likely decrease the good parts of Brawl. Mindgames are important than techs, which means that this actually may help others in Melee also, but decrease the audience of brawl.

There are so many problems that will show that it is making a backwards growth, but it is also going forwards also. So in the end, Brawl is not moving in a good nor bad direction. It all depends on how it is viewed. More than obvious.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I think I replied here already, but I'll reply again, this time with a, most likely, different argument.

I don't agree at all. For all we know, there's wavedashing. Never claim something unless the game's been completely destroyed during inspection. We don't know the future, thus we do not know the game's progression. What you've said, as far as I understand, is predicting the future. Of course, I'm not claiming the game will proceed. I'm saying that you can't know that for fact.

 

[metaXzero]

^If a new WD is in the game, it'll either be 2 difficult and situational to make appliable, or be exclusive to a few characters (breaking them like MK's new AT).

And nothing is going to restore combos realistically (not even WD), so the game will just develop to be more defensive, exclusive, and broken ATs. Until it degenerates into a select few characters.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

^If a new WD is in the game, it'll either be 2 difficult and situational to make appliable, or be exclusive to a few characters (breaking them like MK's new AT).

And nothing is going to restore combos realistically (not even WD), so the game will just develop to be more defensive, exclusive, and broken ATs. Until it degenerates into a select few characters.

You guys must be seeing something I'm not. And wavedashing was an example. Once more, we don't know the true depths of the game. For all we know, there's something in there to help execute Brawl's problems.

I'm the kind of person that thinks, "Anything is possible," so you might as well stop arguing. I'm stubborn. I'm not in denial, I just refuse to either give up or believe without further observation that something has run its life span.


We don't even need Brawl to be better. As long as either the human or the computer can grow or evolve, the game can evolve. Play smarter, play faster, play harder. Even that can make the game more exciting. And I'm sorry, but as long as I have the desire to destroy someone competitively and win a prize, this game has a competitive side.

 

[Oracle]

IMO, we should just play melee and brawl competitively: brawl because it's the new smash and we can't change that, and melee because it's faster, combo-er, and more fun competitively than camping at opposite sides of the map

 

[metaXzero]

You guys must be seeing something I'm not. And wavedashing was an example. Once more, we don't know the true depths of the game. For all we know, there's something in there to help execute Brawl's problems.

I'm the kind of person that thinks, "Anything is possible," so you might as well stop arguing. I'm stubborn. I'm not in denial, I just refuse to either give up or believe without further observation that something has run its life span.


We don't even need Brawl to be better. As long as either the human or the computer can grow or evolve, the game can evolve. Play smarter, play faster, play harder. Even that can make the game more exciting. And I'm sorry, but as long as I have the desire to destroy someone competitively and win a prize, this game has a competitive side.

I didn't say Brawl was uncompetitive (Though Sakurai tryed to make it uncompetitive).

It's been 5 months. Most of the big and useful universal Techs (As big as Brawl can allows) have been found. This leaves character specific 1s. And those can be like Pits many useless ATs or MKs infinite cape. The time of discovering a universal AT is mostly dead.

And Brawl desperately needed a BIG AT to further its lifespan.

You can continue being optimistic. Just don't hold your breath.

IMO, we should just play melee and brawl competitively: brawl because it's the new smash and we can't change that, and melee because it's faster, combo-er, and more fun competitively than camping at opposite sides of the map

I concur! But their is a specific problem. Can't remember what though. Something about time.

 

[DTKPch]

I think I replied here already, but I'll reply again, this time with a, most likely, different argument.

I don't agree at all. For all we know, there's wavedashing. Never claim something unless the game's been completely destroyed during inspection. We don't know the future, thus we do not know the game's progression. What you've said, as far as I understand, is predicting the future. Of course, I'm not claiming the game will proceed. I'm saying that you can't know that for fact.

Frankly, Asaph, the lack of such wavedash-esque techniques is not the only thing Brawl is lacking. The game itself seems structurally weak, what with the lack of hitstun, excessive floatiness, shield mechanisms, etc.

For example, let's take the lack of punishment opportunities: To excel in a competitive sport or game, one must play flawlessly. The best players are often the ones who make the fewest mistakes. Professional athletes must perform flawlessly because opponents can capitalize on mistakes. A missed defensive assignment in football can lead to a long touchdown, and a misplaced, soft serve can lead to an untouchable return in tennis.

If a player makes a mistake in Brawl, however, it might be punished by a single hit, around 15% damage, and then the two players retreat and start all over again. This problem is still a thorn in the side of competitive smashing, and it would greatly help the game competitively if it could be fixed.

What type of advanced technique could possibly be discovered to fix such a fundamental problem? How about the other issues I mentioned? What technique would fix floatiness, or how few openings there are in the shield?

Sure, Melee had wavedashing, l-cancelling, and such to help it, but the game's physics were also sound.




Oh, and also, Brawl basically has been analyzed to death. I truly doubt right now that any new gamebreaking technique will be discovered. It could happen, but the chances grow slimmer with each passing day.

 

[vidjogamer]

i think i have to disagree.

 

[metaXzero]

i think i have to disagree.

That's it? At least explain.

 

[Deception]

With a post count that high and join date from long ago, he doesn't need to explain.

 

[metaXzero]

I seriously don't understand why. If he doesn't want to explain himself, why post?

And what does join date have to with such a post? Even if he is a BRoomer, I just don't like pointless post (unless it has humor).

 

[Neokun]

Frankly, Asaph, the lack of such wavedash-esque techniques is not the only thing Brawl is lacking. The game itself seems structurally weak, what with the lack of hitstun, excessive floatiness, shield mechanisms, etc.

For example, let's take the lack of punishment opportunities: To excel in a competitive sport or game, one must play flawlessly. The best players are often the ones who make the fewest mistakes. Professional athletes must perform flawlessly because opponents can capitalize on mistakes. A missed defensive assignment in football can lead to a long touchdown, and a misplaced, soft serve can lead to an untouchable return in tennis.

If a player makes a mistake in Brawl, however, it might be punished by a single hit, around 15% damage, and then the two players retreat and start all over again. This problem is still a thorn in the side of competitive smashing, and it would greatly help the game competitively if it could be fixed.

What type of advanced technique could possibly be discovered to fix such a fundamental problem? How about the other issues I mentioned? What technique would fix floatiness, or how few openings there are in the shield?

Sure, Melee had wavedashing, l-cancelling, and such to help it, but the game's physics were also sound.




Oh, and also, Brawl basically has been analyzed to death. I truly doubt right now that any new gamebreaking technique will be discovered. It could happen, but the chances grow slimmer with each passing day.

So what you are saying is that because this game doesn't allow one player to completely ***-**** the other when the other makes a single mistake, it is no good? Haha, I used to wish this game was more like Melee but I enjoy it thoroughly at this point. It is very balanced, very fun, and if you dont play with a bunch of ******** *******s, you won't have to worry about gay ATs like infinite lasers and chain throws. Comboing isnt a SET thing, combos happen on the fly which makes quick decision making and speed all the more important here.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Oh, and also, Brawl basically has been analyzed to death. I truly doubt right now that any new gamebreaking technique will be discovered. It could happen, but the chances grow slimmer with each passing day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdmwKfPchms

Now everyone can stfu about this gamebreaking AT stuff.

 

[metaXzero]

@Neokun
If the game doesn't allow decent punishment, yeah it's not really good competitively. Lack of punishment encourages camping and really stupid fighting styles.

Combos are inescapaple and punishing. Brawl is just follow-ups from reacting correctly to your opponent.
And Brawl is NOT balanced!!

@56k
That only benefits MK. And it is looking to banned from tournaments. Brawl needs a universal AND practical AT. But it is looking to develop either useless or broken ones that benefit 1 character.

Didn't think 06 people would say this sort of stuff.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So what you are saying is that because this game doesn't allow one player to completely ***-**** the other when the other makes a single mistake, it is no good? Haha, I used to wish this game was more like Melee but I enjoy it thoroughly at this point. It is very balanced, very fun, and if you dont play with a bunch of ******** *******s, you won't have to worry about gay ATs like infinite lasers and chain throws. Comboing isnt a SET thing, combos happen on the fly which makes quick decision making and speed all the more important here.

ur dum.

people only get ***-***** for single mistakes in melee at the highest level of play. you need to have AWFUL di to get caught in some of the combos weak players (who survival di everything) get hit by. if you see someone get ***-***** by NON-SET combo then they probably had awful di in a bunch of places, not just one.

also, have you checked tournament results? this game isn't balanced lol.

i guess if you play with nothing but bad people it looks balanced but seriously... play someone who doesn't suck then come back saying "balance".

 

[navillus]

I agree that the physics of brawl is, for lack of a better word, messed up. I agree with DTKPch in that the excessive floatiness and shielding and lack of punishable moves that aren't toon link's grab is a problem. I also see potential in this game. i didn't like Brawl at first and to this day when i pop in melee I still rejoice about how much of a wonderful game it is, probably because samus's sex kick still existed. But when playing brawl with my buddies, learning new combos, reacting to different situations, its still pretty competitive. Melee was a tier of its own and I would have liked to have a sequel in its image but that possibility is gone now. I still play melee but the truth of the situation is this: Brawl isn't going anywhere. tourney's aren't magically going to be melee again. I was against Brawl at first but after spending some quality time its just a different game with different physics. you have to learn to adapt. That's the name of the game boys. I see an improvement in my play every time i pick up the controller. I don't know about you but i'm looking forward to getting my brawl character as good as my melee one. Even if it takes a couple years.

 

[metaXzero]

navillus. Define combo.

 

[navillus]

when i say combo i don't mean ken combos. I mean combining your moves together to do damage. Combo is pretty simple i think. People make things too complicated.

 

[metaXzero]

Yeeeah.....Thats what I thought.

The low hitsun and airdodge negate discovering new "combos". Instead you just follow-up based on your opponents reactions.

A combo is a mostly inescapable string of attacks. Most stuff in Brawl are easily escapable.

 

[navillus]

Thats probably the only truly competetive aspect of this game. it relies more on opponents reactions than melee. To each his own

 

[RDK]

Thats probably the only truly competetive aspect of this game. it relies more on opponents reactions than melee. To each his own

Only because so much offensive power and strategy is taken from both players. It's not about finding a safe way to penetrate your opponent's defenses so you can pull off a combo, it's about waiting until your opponent messes up so you can jump in and hopefully punish, which is ridiculously hard when you're using a bad character.

 

[Sad Panda323]

Didn't think 06 people would say this sort of stuff.

Because high post count = infinite wisdom

M I RITE?

 

[I Pika]

In 2 years a pro match with 4 stocks at FD is gonig to last upwards 30mins...

 

[psykoplympton]

^If a new WD is in the game, it'll either be 2 difficult and situational to make appliable, or be exclusive to a few characters (breaking them like MK's new AT).

And nothing is going to restore combos realistically (not even WD), so the game will just develop to be more defensive, exclusive, and broken ATs. Until it degenerates into a select few characters.

a select few characters sounds like melee to me.

 

[metaXzero]

Brawl and Melee are very unbalanced. It no longer matters which is more or less balanced because it is only by a small margin.

Though Melee had ATs to buff low and mid tiers enough to compete with high and top tiers. What does Brawl have?

 

[navillus]

a select few characters sounds like melee to me.

yeah fox, falco, sheik, and marth

anyone wanna question that?????

its the same thing over again.

 

[Winston]

Lol, just wondering, how many of you guys who posted about vidjogamer's comment know who he is?

Also @ navillus, why do you have an anti-brawl sig?

 

[navillus]

simply because i was on the melee boards a couple months ago and there was this thread where everyone was posting why they still wanted melee (of course) and as a samus main, i miss my charge shot killing under 150% lol thats all

 

[psykoplympton]

i know who vidjo is. not personally but you know ive heard of him.

and navilus dont forget peach

fox, falco, shiek, marth, peach.

 

[navillus]

of course the peach. and the down smash from hell. 88% in one hit. WTF!!! lol my best friend mained her. we had some hot peach vs samus matches..... mmmmmmm lol