Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[RDK]

Just to clarify, your saying you wish Melee did NOT have those things? I don't see why you would.

My point was that Snake is a horribly imbalanced character in comparison with the rest of the cast (sans Metaknight). He's one of the heaviest characters, but yet he has an awesome recovery that's basically unbeatable from below. He's big AND deals heavy damage, unlike Bowser, who is just big.

Snake is also the only character who can kill with his jab.

 

[Amide]

If I could give my thoughts, in competitive smash, Brawl will be boring. It's really hard to disprove this. Seriously, it's all camping. At the same time though, it doesn't take less skill. Go to a brawl tourney without practice, camp all you want, but you'll quickly lose. Brawl doesn't take less skill, but man, it'd be so much of a better game if it had Melee physics. Please, no one say "Melee 2.0..."

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

My point was that Snake is a horribly imbalanced character in comparison with the rest of the cast (sans Metaknight). He's one of the heaviest characters, but yet he has an awesome recovery that's basically unbeatable from below. He's big AND deals heavy damage, unlike Bowser, who is just big.

Snake is also the only character who can kill with his jab.

Well, Ike can too, but that would be extremely situational and the opponent would need to be around the 200-250 mark I'm guessing.

 

[Sans Glutin]

Snake is also the only character who can kill with his jab.

Ike

Anyways, Gimpyfish's post seemed to be pretty much in order to me. The majority of the options added in Brawl were defensive.

 

[doodmahn]

In the tournaments I've gone to, I really haven't had any problems with camping.*

*Except for Toon Link. DX

 

[Samochan]

Ike

Anyways, Gimpyfish's post seemed to be pretty much in order to me. The majority of the options added in Brawl were defensive.

Ike can't, not on real match, cause stale moves prevent him from scoring ko's with his jab even against lighter characters cause he's so slow he needs to use his jab from shield all the time. :/ Snake doesn't, he uses ftilt lol.

No stale moves it's around 130-150% against light chars like zss that jab kills I think.

 

[RDK]

Ike

Anyways, Gimpyfish's post seemed to be pretty much in order to me. The majority of the options added in Brawl were defensive.

Just letting you know I rofl'd hard at your sig.

GG

 

[Jack Kieser]

Just letting you know I rofl'd hard at your sig.

GG

D*mnit, RDK, you beat me to it. That is seriously a contender for the 'Best Forum Signature Ever.'

 

[Adi]

Yeah that's pretty much the best signature I've ever seen.

 

[peeup]

lol@his siggy, best in any forum I've seen.

On topic, yeah, some characters are way OP'd in brawl (Snake and MK). Fox was pretty powerful in melee, though, so don't act like there was nothing like that before. Jiggz had an uber recovery in melee, and Peach's wasn't too shabby.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Ike can't, not on real match, cause stale moves prevent him from scoring ko's with his jab even against lighter characters cause he's so slow he needs to use his jab from shield all the time.

Actually, no. AAA attacks, for each iteration, are treated as different attacks, so stale moves does not degenerate them much at all.

I haven't done Ike yet, but here are some I have done, and they assume all three A attacks connect:

Lucario
N-Tilt: 3H IAS % of Strength
6 6 100
11 5 83.33333333
17 6 100
22 5 83.33333333
27 5 83.33333333
32 5 83.33333333
37 5 83.33333333
42 5 83.33333333
47 5 83.33333333
52 5 83.33333333

Fox
N-Tilt: 3H IAS % of Strength
14 14 100
27 13 92.85714286
39 12 85.71428571
51 12 85.71428571
63 12 85.71428571
75 12 85.71428571
87 12 85.71428571
99 12 85.71428571
110 11 78.57142857
122 12 85.71428571

Falco
N-Tilt: 3H IAS % of Strength
10 10 100
19 9 90
28 9 90
36 8 80
45 9 90
53 8 80
62 9 90
70 8 80
79 9 90
87 8 80

Wolf
N-Tilt: 3H IAS % of Strength
9 9 100
17 8 88.88888889
25 8 88.88888889
33 8 88.88888889
40 7 77.77777778
48 8 88.88888889
56 8 88.88888889
63 7 77.77777778
71 8 88.88888889
79 8 88.88888889

Pit
N-Tilt: 3H IAS % of Strength
11 11 100
21 10 90.90909091
31 10 90.90909091
40 9 81.81818182
49 9 81.81818182
59 10 90.90909091
68 9 81.81818182
77 9 81.81818182
87 10 90.90909091
96 9 81.81818182

Link
N-Tilt: 3H IAS % of Strength
12 12 100
23 11 91.66666667
34 11 91.66666667
44 10 83.33333333
54 10 83.33333333
64 10 83.33333333
74 10 83.33333333
85 11 91.66666667
95 10 83.33333333
105 10 83.33333333

---
Like many Brawl complaints, this one is rooted more in theory than fact. Both Ike and Snake can easily KO with their A attacks. The lowest these attacks bottom out, assuming all three hit, is just over 80% of the initial strength. IAS = Individual attack strength, which is the second number, the first is merely the damage on the character being attacked, the third is the percent of strength in comparison with the very first attack, each subsequent number on each list is just the same attack repeated, so your three hit A combo will do 10 damage on the 10th straight time performing it in a row against an opponent and will be 83% of the strength as the first time you did it with Link.

I implore anyone who doesn't like camping just to switch characters to Diddy Kong, as I've been saying for months, he is the epitome of anti-camping.

 

[ShadowLink84]

My point was that Snake is a horribly imbalanced character in comparison with the rest of the cast (sans Metaknight). He's one of the heaviest characters, but yet he has an awesome recovery that's basically unbeatable from below. He's big AND deals heavy damage, unlike Bowser, who is just big.

Snake is also the only character who can kill with his jab.

True but hypen smashing is quite good.
Its really useful for Link who can use it for his approaches.

Snake is a very broken character.
Hmm makes me wonder if people would be all right if I hacked the game and made his hitbox actually match his animations.

 

[IrArby]

RDK the thing is I thought you said Melee not Brawl. I'd rather Melee not have . . . or something like that. Doesn't matter I know what you mean.

I still think Ike is playable except against Snake/MK but more so against MK. I usually just do Fairs with the Cstick and space it with the analog which is hard to punish for slow-moderatly fast characters. I need to watch pro Ike vids though since maybe they already do that and still lose. IDK DThrow to Up B gets some people but it may just work on scrubs I haven't tried that against anyone good. You'd have to airdodge it at multiple points to completely avoid it I think or do some quick SDI out of it.

 

[peeup]

Lol Arby whats with you and the word scrubs?

 

[IrArby]

Lol Arby whats with you and the word scrubs?

I was overusing Noob for a while so I'm switching to Scrub alot more now. If someones talking and they sound all noobie and make stupid arguments I call it Scrubspeak.

Does anyone want to tell me if that Ike stuff works or do I have to physically move my mouse around and actually go to the Ike boards. Thats totally for scrubs.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I implore anyone who doesn't like camping just to switch characters to Diddy Kong, as I've been saying for months, he is the epitome of anti-camping.

Well, I'm close. Marth ***** shield campers.

 

[Corigames]

I implore anyone who doesn't like camping just to switch characters to Diddy Kong, as I've been saying for months, he is the epitome of anti-camping.

Really? Because I had never played against a Diddy Kong until a match in tournament. I 3 stocked him by camping, reversing the bananas, and running away the entire match.

 

[tk~]

vids of you doing that please. I would really like to watch it.

 

[Corigames]

Here, let me just go back in time and record the match. I'll be right back...

*waaaa waaa waa wa wa wa waa wa wawa awa SHWOOOOOOOOOOM*

*kzzt*

...

...

...

*WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHHHHH*

JESUS CHRIST!!! Don't go to the past! Everything gets ****ed up. Why? Why did I do that!

 

[IrArby]

No **** it does coreygames. Haven't you seen Back To the Future? Besides even if you haven't everyone knows about "safety not guaranteed". You should have thought to bring your own weapons I mean seriously the guy has only done this once before.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Remember that tortoise progression I mentioned, well I it moved again. I found Wavedash in your Brawl. HOWEVER, remember the tortoise, it's not entirely effective. Baby steps.

 

[IrArby]

Are you talking about the pivot walking thingie? If not that I for one am completely lost as to what your saying.

If that is what your talking about lots of characters can do that. If not I posted for nothing.

*this post r potential failbait.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Are you talking about the pivot walking thingie? If not that I for one am completely lost as to what your saying.

If that is what your talking about lots of characters can do that. If not I posted for nothing.

*this post r potential failbait.

Honestly, it's really difficult to describe, but it's not the spin/pivot walk thingie, although you do need to learn that. If I record it on the wii(or SD) is there anyway to upload it. My camera only holds 1:00 movies.(Sorry for junking up the thread)

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

I implore anyone who doesn't like camping just to switch characters to Diddy Kong, as I've been saying for months, he is the epitome of anti-camping.

really? how? his projectile is pretty bad. i would think that fox is one of the best anti-campers, a projectile, fast, reflector, etc.

 

[RDK]

really? how? his projectile is pretty bad. i would think that fox is one of the best anti-campers, a projectile, fast, reflector, etc.

Diddy has arguably the best projectile in the game. Have you ever played against a good Diddy? A player who knows how to use the bananas correctly is incredibly smothering; it's impossible to move around when he has control of the stage.

 

[N355]

gimpy knows what he is talking about. also, a real combo is a series of attacks that cannot be escaped by the enemy BECAUSE of hitstun. brawl lacks hitstun so the enemy can escape after each hit pretty much so its just a battle of trading punches. Nothing can really be followed up unless your opponent isn't good at DI or dodging. no hitstun=no combos and there is nothing that can be done about that simple fact

 

[AlphaZealot]

Its funny that that is the definition used, then players will frequently tell you combo's in Melee only occurred when the opponent lacked adequate DI.

 

[lipidlad]

Actually, I've found that the introduction of trips actually increases the need for strategy and technique. You know, like midair turns can help safeguard you from tripping on a turn.

Personally, ive always found competitive matches to be slightly less boring for brawl. There's a bit more chaos, everything is a bit less expected. I agree, that sucks for competitiveness, but it can be HIGHLY entertaining, if you like that kinda stuff

 

[Zankoku]

There is no strategy involved in tripping. It's a random occurrence. The act of avoiding tripping by not running at all is only limiting your play by being unnecessarily safe against tripping.

 

[RDK]

Actually, I've found that the introduction of trips actually increases the need for strategy and technique. You know, like midair turns can help safeguard you from tripping on a turn.

Personally, ive always found competitive matches to be slightly less boring for brawl. There's a bit more chaos, everything is a bit less expected. I agree, that sucks for competitiveness, but it can be HIGHLY entertaining, if you like that kinda stuff

Brawl is so slow that EVERYTHING is expected. That's why there's such an emphasis on mindgames, because the tech part is utterly nonexistant.

 

[Zankoku]

The only emphasis on mindgames is the one to be found for players with poor reflexes. Just react, it'll do you as much good as predicting, except that you'll do everything right instead of occasionally guessing wrong.

 

[ihatemybrother]

As most of us have read in Hug's blog about control, it is a trial and error process. If your opponent shields to block your attack, next time you can grab to counter his shield. Yes, mindgames are greatly involved, but we need not stop here, on the ground, for the air game follows the same principles, and the air defense suffers its mistakes more than its ground counterpart.

Lets say the last time you hit your opponent off the stage, he air-dodged your dair spike. So this time, you proceed along the same path as the dair, but never do it, wait for the air-dodge, and punish. Be it a bair, or another dair, your opponent will be hit.

Gimping in brawl will follow this progression, and will not cease as players become more experienced. There will only be more inventive, evasive ways to edgeguard as play continues, and each match will become a series of battles, mind against mind, and when the match ends, a victor shall stand.

 

[Corigames]

Lets say the last time you hit your opponent off the stage, he air-dodged your dair spike. So this time, you proceed along the same path as the dair, but never do it, wait for the air-dodge, and punish. Be it a bair, or another dair, your opponent will be hit.

Gimping in brawl will follow this progression, and will not cease as players become more experienced. There will only be more inventive, evasive ways to edgeguard as play continues, and each match will become a series of battles, mind against mind, and when the match ends, a victor shall stand.

What makes you think people don't already do this >_>

It's just that the person who wins usually has the best mindgames AND character in Brawl.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Really...****, I need to start playing Wario then,.

 

[Stiputation]

I am SO confused as to what is going on here.
But I'll just say I second Gimpy's opinion for some extra brownie points ;]

 

[rinoH]

i agree with gimpy with the backward progression

 

[ihatemybrother]

Alright guys, I just completely changed my mind about brawl. I just got 3 stocked by my ****ing brother. I had 70 damage on him, 70 ****ing damage! Tech skill is irrelevant in this game, as long as you have good mind games, you will win. **** my brother...

^^Thats probably too fueled by emotion, I'll see what I think once I cool down.

 

[doodmahn]

Wait, what tangent is this thread on now?

 

[ashes]

While I do agree with what gimpy is saying, I have to say I like SSBB better for the fact that there are not as many unblockable combos. I feel that it makes if more realistic and also i think that players will get clever and more strategic in the way they attack, defend and basicly trade blows. I don't think that the lack of combos has to take away from the overall quality of the game. I think if people view it as a new game and stop comparing it with melee then new and cooler styles of play will develop for SSBB.

 

[Yuna]

Its funny that that is the definition used, then players will frequently tell you combo's in Melee only occurred when the opponent lacked adequate DI.

Or when they actually happened because the combos had, you know, adequate hitstun. Or just enough to prevent you from airdodging (since airdodging isn't instantaneous) out of it.

There were plenty of those, though most 4+ hit combos were due to bad DI.