Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Negi-Kun]

I don't know what to think. I disagree in a sense because we are going to find techniques that change Brawl forever. But I do agree that the combo will get shorter and shorter. I'm very depressed right now that GIMPYFISH made a thread of Brawl's backwards progression.

 

[thumbswayup]

Not true. I used it four times LOL

 

[The Halloween Captain]

As long as people enjoy mashing the B button, this sadly won't happen. In all honesty, Brawl is not terrible, but it gets boring real quick if you know most of the basic defensive tactics.

You would have to get tired of spamming as well.

Personally, I think of spamming as a way to irritate your opponent into attacking, although most people don't like it. I'll be the first to admit a spammy, campy R.O.B. is annoying, but I also am big on camping with Pikachu to lure my opponent into d-smashes.

You should try camping before complaining about it. Its just another level of anticipating and manipulating your opponent into doing something stupid.

Not fun to watch, though...

Back on topic, Brawl might progress backwards. However, it just means that we'll hit new levels of camping intelligence, and that the pros and the scrubs will be harder to tell apart, while having a clear difference between them when you face them - namely, that the pros won't be combo-able, and the scrubs will.

 

[Skler]

A chimp can mash the L button and still be difficult to combo. The best combos in Brawl are easy to do chain grabs, that's sad.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Not true. I used it four times LOL

Yes but 4x10=40.

40 times is way to many. If I read that post 10 times I would see the word scrub 40 times. That's unacceptable.

 

[IrArby]

You should try camping before complaining about it. Its just another level of anticipating and manipulating your opponent into doing something stupid.

The broken defense system is such that attacking is often "doing something stupid"
Assuming that your attacking and not just trying to camp back with your own projectiles. Manipulating your opponent would be like maybe dash attacking them every time they land. Finally, they catch on and shieldgrab you. Next time you run in, they expect a dashattack and prepare to shieldgrab, you grab them instead. You can condition them yes but this example is offensive manipulation. Defensive campy manipulation is the name of the Brawl game. The problem is there no way around this since neither of you can really offensively manipulate the other so whomever can do it Defensively wins.

For the record, owning campy scrubs is one of my favorite smashpastimes. Sure they giggle when their arrow hits me from all the way across the stage but whose smiling when I combo them off the stage and ledgehopspike them to their death? Me. Whomever said gimping was a bad thing had no idea what they were talking about. Gimping efficently is an artform. Just ask Cort.

If I were good or even had the patience for Brawl, I'd make a whole combo montage of me owning Campy Scrubs entitiled "Unhappy Campers" an Arby Combo Video Lastly, I only said scrubs twice so there.

 

[peeup]

With heavy brawl, camping goes byebye. Heavy brawl makes brawl not such a campfest, and it allows for awesome gimping. Spikes are pretty much guarenteed kills, so your (Arby) combo montage would pwn twice as hard. Heavy brawl is as close to melee 2.0 that we're going to get.

Holy cow, as I was watching South Park I thought of something. The first episode when they are in 4th grade and they want to return to 3rd grade. The whole time, they think that 3rd grade (melee) will end up being better than 4th grade (brawl), but in the end they realize that with a new mindset (heavy brawl), they realize that 3rd grade was awful and 4th grade is awesome.

 

[Corigames]

So, may I ask, WHY AREN'T YOU JUST PLAYING MELEE THEN?!

And no. In heavy Brawl camping doesn't go bye bye. I think it actually promotes it more, in my case. With pit, he has a harder time getting back, so I spend even more time making sure to stay away from them and fire arrows. I don't want to take the risk of even leaving the ground because he just doesn't have return power.

Plus, wouldn't that just make MK and other high tiers even better? It just further separates those good ol' tiers.

 

[Morrigan]

It'll make Snake survive till 300%

 

[fr0st2k]

hows about you actually counter his points instead of saying melee 2.0?

From everything we have seen so far Gimpy's observations are true, not just for players at the peak of Brawl's meta game, but EVERYWHERE.

Unless I'm playing Brawl deliberately in a matter to avoid the defensive mechanics (aka screwing around) that gimpy is talking about it gets really dry really quickly.

how the hell can his observations be true, if they are predictions? that doesnt make any sense.

 

[Corigames]

In a thread with a high concentration of Melee supporters, no Brawl argument can win.

In a thread with a high concentration of Brawl supporters, no Melee argument can win.

When they are in balance, Melee wins.

This is my observation, prove me wrong.

 

[thumbswayup]

Yes but 4x10=40.

40 times is way to many. If I read that post 10 times I would see the word scrub 40 times. That's unacceptable.

LOL

@ Coreygames- I play Melee every week.

 

[fr0st2k]

Brawl is just a campfest. What a joke. It kills me to see random scrubs at tournys doing well because they use Snake and MK and spam/camp all day.

Candy and Gonzo were beaten in teams at the last C3 by two random scrubs. It was the saddest thing ever. Both Candy and Gonzo have consistently placed in top 10 in teams and singles in the MD/VA area's tournies. They accidentally killed each other multiple times, and the scrubs just spammed all day. My teammate and I played the awful scrubs after them and barely beat them. How ****ing sad is that? They were a Snake/Lucario team. Here's what they did: the Snake literally only tilted and mortar slid the ENTIRE match, the Lucario jumped back and spammed Aura all day. Whenever you approached him, he spammed every smash he could. I got that ******* good though, footstool killed that camping mofo at 0% in the tie breaker match. He was so mad, I couldn't stop smiling.

So, yeah, even teams now suck. My partner and I aren't bad, just so you know. We almost beat Azen and Chillin that day when they were using double Snake. Came down to Azen and I final stock with him at 50% and me at 120%.

I've even been shocked to hear from people who are good in Brawl, and who I thought were "pro" Brawl, tell me they would like nothing more than for competitive Brawl to die so the Melee scene could return. I was even told this by a game and watch main in MELEE.

I know Brawl will die soon. I just can't wait for that day to come.

Have you ever heard of counter-strike? CAL? specific strategies revolved around camping.

It is not a bad thing. Where melee was offensive, Brawl is defensive. Maybe sakurai did this intentionally? It is simply a different way to play a similar game.

 

[fr0st2k]

In a thread with a high concentration of Melee supporters, no Brawl argument can win.

In a thread with a high concentration of Brawl supporters, no Melee argument can win.

When they are in balance, Melee wins.

This is my observation, prove me wrong.

where can you prove they are balanced? Maybe in the ones you "thought" where balanced, melee was in a higher concentration.

 

[Corigames]

No, because Melee supporters are naturally more intelligent, stronger posters, don't resort to bad arguments, use experience instead of rumors, and are more coherent. It's just obvious that Melee supporters would do better in a balanced argument between the two groups. Obviously.

 

[fr0st2k]

No, because Melee supporters are naturally more intelligent, stronger posters, don't resort to bad arguments, use experience instead of rumors, and are more coherent. It's just obvious that Melee supporters would do better in a balanced argument between the two groups. Obviously.

obviously...

no listen.. i am a melee supporter, but not in the same way as all the typical melee fanbois.

I think melee was the superior game. IF i was allowed to choose 1 game and one game only? I would choose Brawl hands down. Why? Because its newer, and not nearly as played out as melee is.

That being said. Brawl is not a bad game, and can certainly be competitive. Unfortunately, the old regulars of this site refuse to acknowledge that brawl is a different game. It shares similar aspects of melee, but IT IS DIFFERENT. It has a different play style, different engine, different attacks. I want to emphasize different "playstyle."

I dont know what some people mean when they say melee 2.0, but when i said it, i mean that it was never supposed to bring the same strategies and manuevers to brawl. Brawl should develop its on playstyle, and it should develop its on following.

If you dont like it, you dont have to play it. Unfortunately for Brawl, it came after melee, and after its huge cult following. That itself will lead to its downfall, because the melee fanbois who refuse to accept anything non melee, were the only type of people who would make a website and organize tournaments for it so religiously.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

No, because Melee supporters are naturally more intelligent, stronger posters, don't resort to bad arguments, use experience instead of rumors, and are more coherent. It's just obvious that Melee supporters would do better in a balanced argument between the two groups. Obviously.

You do realize you just defended your point by going "Because you're stupid!".. right?

This must be that natural intelligence you were talking about; nothing at all like biased bigotry.

Note: This thread will never accomplish anything, trying to force your opinion about "what's fun" is a good way to waste time.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

You guys always try to look for reasons to counter every negative oppinion of this game.

ex. "If you shield this they can grab" or "After they land that hit your hit will outprioritize" actually a very good example is what someone told me when I was playing meele with them he was a decent play who knew l-cancel and some basics but he said.

"In Brawl you can l-cancel if you do your attack right before you hit the ground the move will end faster" .. well guess what in meele you can do the same thing.. jump up with fox and hit n-air at the end of the short hop animation and not to mention the first two examples I said as well.

Brawl is just a dumbed down game that is everything meele is except 100x easier and more obvious and 90% of the community can't put their head around that. And almost all of you have never played meele or hardly seen the depth it goes into.

But I guess if you and your buddies are finally having fun competing at a level of gaming your brain can understand then power to you..

 

[Corigames]

For those who don't know what sarcasm was, my post was full of it. That is all, continue flaming me.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

For those who don't know what sarcasm was, my post was full of it. That is all, continue flaming me.

sarcasm on the internet? nooo, surely not.

 

[Corigames]

I thought the tacked on "Obviously" at the end of my post made it obvious that I wasn't being serious. But it seems like a lot of people just wanted to whine about how I, or other Melee supporters, are oppressive.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Melee is teh superiorist. Seriously though, isn't still a little too early to say things like backwards progression, Momentum Deconfirmed and no Wavedash?

 

[RDK]

Melee is teh superiorist. Seriously though, isn't still a little too early to say things like backwards progression, Momentum Deconfirmed and no Wavedash?

No, it's not too early. And you really think wavedashing is in Brawl?

 

[peeup]

So, may I ask, WHY AREN'T YOU JUST PLAYING MELEE THEN?!

Firstly, I don't have a GC/copy of melee/controller, I played all the time at my friend's house, and with brawl I use the classic controller. Secondly, I like the fact that brawl has a bunch of new characters, it provides more replayability than melee. Thirdly, online makes playing against humans a much easier task--my parents wouldn't drive me to tourneys/random people's houses just to play a videogame...

On topic, this whole debate has grown out of the "how can we fix brawl's backwards progression", into the whole "you're stupid because you still play melee/brawl" kind of discussion I'm starting to think that the only reason I'm coming back to this thread is so I can raise my post count, because I know that nobody is actually listening to my, or anybody elses for that matter, opinion.

 

[Red Exodus]

I thought we had already established that Brawl was no good for competitive play, why is this still being argued?

 

[~L~]

I thought we had already established that Brawl was no good for competitive play, why is this still being argued?

Why would you think that of a game that isn't even a year old?

 

[WoodyWiggins]

No, it's not too early. And you really think wavedashing is in Brawl?

Well, I was kidding about the Wavedash until I saw the Dragonic Reverse (what a mouthful) vids. So I think that Brawl will have Tortoise progession, Old angry Tortoise Progession. Give it time.

 

[Red Exodus]

People were playing Brawl since the JP release looking for advanced techniques and different exploits to make Brawl more technical than it is out of the box and hardly anythign has been found, even worse is the fact that a lot of those techniques can be outdone by camping. All you need to do is be a good camper and you can win a lot of matches and as a result everyone started camping to win. It's a perfectly legal tactic but it makes the game require so much less skill that there's no point in trying to do anything other than camp.

 

[peeup]

If you don't like how Brawl plays, go back to melee. If you've been reading this thread since I revived it a couple days ago, you'd notice that there are plenty of people who prefer melee to brawl, so don't worry about melee's competitive scene not reappearing. Brawl will have a league completely sperated from melee, so it doesn't matter which you like better. Some people like brawl because of the new characters, and some people like melee because of its good gameplay. Everybody will get their own competitive league, so just accept brawl, and if you want to, adapt.

I'm throwing the idea of heavy brawl out there again, also. Somebody said in an earlier post that heavy brawl encourages camping because his pit couldn't recover well, so he had to stay back and arrow spam. It may encourage camping, but it reduces its effectiveness, so it doesn't matter how much you want to do it because you just can't.

 

[RDK]

If you don't like how Brawl plays, go back to melee. If you've been reading this thread since I revived it a couple days ago, you'd notice that there are plenty of people who prefer melee to brawl, so don't worry about melee's competitive scene not reappearing. Brawl will have a league completely sperated from melee, so it doesn't matter which you like better. Some people like brawl because of the new characters, and some people like melee because of its good gameplay. Everybody will get their own competitive league, so just accept brawl, and if you want to, adapt.

I'm throwing the idea of heavy brawl out there again, also. Somebody said in an earlier post that heavy brawl encourages camping because his pit couldn't recover well, so he had to stay back and arrow spam. It may encourage camping, but it reduces its effectiveness, so it doesn't matter how much you want to do it because you just can't.

What? Heavy Brawl doesn't discourage camping; it only allows for more effective short-hopped aerials and pseudo-comboing.

 

[peeup]

What? Heavy Brawl doesn't discourage camping; it only allows for more effective short-hopped aerials and pseudo-comboing.

Did you read my post? I said it ENCOURAGED camping, but the more effective short-hopped arials make it easier to get around campers. The almost-comboing aspect of it is also a plus, it makes brawl the closest we can get to melee 2.0.

 

[IrArby]

Melee 2.0

A dream long dead.

Heavy or Fast Brawl doesn't change the fact that its Brawl. Psuedo combos stop when people adjust to the speed/wieght. I agree Heavy Brawl would create more combos but very few. Heavy and Fast Brawl also don't solve edgeguarding which is **** though heavy would make hitting people offstage actually count for something. Fast Brawl is definetly the weaker of the two arguments. Brawl chars will still feel like clones even if they have different "B" moves.

 

[RDK]

Did you read my post? I said it ENCOURAGED camping, but the more effective short-hopped arials make it easier to get around campers. The almost-comboing aspect of it is also a plus, it makes brawl the closest we can get to melee 2.0.

Why settle for a b@stardized version that has to be tweaked when we have Melee?

 

[Bud]

Fast brawl is better than heavy brawl, heavy brawl gimps characters. Fast brawl is ..... faster. I hate the slowness, camping can be beat and so can the fact that brawl is slow. Fast brawl.

 

[peeup]

I like brawl because it has Olimar, one of my favorite characters.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

There's something to be said for that

Lucario is good, Olimar is good, Snake is fun, Wario is really fun, and none of them are in melee.

 

[RDK]

There's something to be said for that

Lucario is good, Olimar is good, Snake is fun, Wario is really fun, and none of them are in melee.

I'd rather that Melee didn't have ridiculous recoveries, dash-upsmashes, and mile-long hitboxes.

 

[IrArby]

I'd rather that Melee didn't have ridiculous recoveries, dash-upsmashes, and mile-long hitboxes.

Just to clarify, your saying you wish Melee did NOT have those things? I don't see why you would.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

- RDK
I don't really see a problem with rediculous recoveries unless they're give to heavy characters, which happens occationally. I also dislike dash-upsmashes, but as you like ATs, I'm not sure what your problem with them is. Also, Olimar is the only character with mile-long hitboxes, although, in melee Marth had some huge range, pretty comparable to a Snake tilt. The main thing with Snake is that the hitbox looks like it should be shorter than it is, because Snake doesn't look like a character who would have a disjointed hitbox in his melee attacks. Its more of a buff to make up for the fact that Snake doesn't realy have many melee attacks. Once you figure out the spacing of the side tilt, I'm pretty sure you can handle Snake.

 

[Zankoku]

Snake doesn't have many melee attacks? Aside from his smash attacks, everything involving the A button with Snake is part of his Metal Gear CQC moveset...

And you say you play Smash?