Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[IrArby]

I like the checkers/chess analogy. They've already created a checkers computer that can't lose but chess masters are still defeating chess computers because the game has more options that even the best AI technology has to offer can't always win. Melee is the chess of the Smash series hands down.

 

[peeup]

If there was no Melee or 64, this thread wouldn't exist and everyone would love Brawl and think it was awesome.

In fact, if Brawl came out first, and then Melee, this thread would say instead, "Melee will have backwards progressoin because it focuses on tech rather than strategy".

These arguments need to just stop. They are two different games and are both equally suitable for competitive play. Some people prefer one or the other, and some like both. A preference is a preference.

Thank goodness somebody knows what they're talking about. theONEjanitor has the whole melee vs brawl thing understood, and everybody should examine his entire post (not just what I quoted) for a good idea of what the general idea should be like. Sure, you can like melee more than brawl, but don't annoy people that enjoy playing brawl, which is a large croud. Brawl may never see the competitiveness that melee had, but maybe it will.

There is absolutely no purpose in arguing about which is better, because everybody has their own opinions. If you like melee better, play melee and don't bother the brawl players. If you like brawl better, play brawl and don't bother the melee players.

Don't be worried about whichever game you favor not having a competitive scene, because chances are that enough people will like each game to have tournaments for each. Don't think of brawl as a sequal to melee--think of it as a totally different game. Different games have different competitive leagues.

 

[Corigames]

So when is the next big Melee tournament in your local scene?

 

[Vro]

In fact, if Brawl came out first, and then Melee, this thread would say instead, "Melee will have backwards progressoin because it focuses on tech rather than strategy".

Backwards progression has nothing to do with focus. Even if it did, Melee still focuses more on strategy than Brawl does. There is a vast difference between "there are more mindgames" and "requires more mindgames".

Melee "focuses" on tech rather than strategy. How can you say this when most of the advanced techniques allow for more mindgames? Just as the analogy of checkers/chess, just because one game requires nearly no tech skill, doesn't mean it has more strategy. Chess and Melee clearly have more tech depth and strategic depth than Checkers and Brawl.

As far as progression goes.. Gimpy stated that Brawl will become less and less deep. With the advantages of camping and lack of combos or gimps, the game will be a dragged out endurance test.

 

[peeup]

So when is the next big Melee tournament in your local scene?

I have to say, I wouldn't know when the next big Brawl tournament would be locally--I'm 13. My parents wouldn't drive me to them, so how the crap would I know.

Anyway, brawl was released relitively recently, people are still trying to find a way around camping, but once that effort is deemed futile, then melee tournys will be popping up. Melee does seem to favor competitive play (with wavedashing and whatnot) so there is no doubt in my mind that melee tournaments will occur in the future. It could be soon, or it could take a while. It depends on how determined the brawl players are in finding a way around camping.

EDIT: It probably won't ever happen, but competitve brawl could evolve into Heavy Brawl. It allows a way past campers, and it allows for some more comboing, but I don't think it will get too far anyway. Read up on it, though.

 

[Corigames]

I didn't say Brawl, I said Melee.

The point is that your statement, "If you like melee better, play melee and don't bother the brawl players. If you like brawl better, play brawl and don't bother the melee players," isn't possible. Even if extremists for both sides don't go to the other's tournaments, they still affect each other. There is a Brawl tournament every other week here in AZ, between smashers and companies throwing them, but there hadn't been a single Melee tournament since February until this weekend when AZ one two step has a small, side-attraction melee tournament.

Brawl affects melee's scene and, I'm sure, it works the other way around. If it were possible, then I wouldn't have a problem with Brawl. I would let people play it, and I would move on. But it has crippled the game I love to play because everyone has moved on to the new "shiny" thing.

 

[peeup]

My bad--I didn't explain what I meant to say very well.

The melee scene will become bigger after a large group of people have realized that they liked the old game better than the "new shiney thing". The brawl hype is quickly dieing, and once it gets to a certain point, people will start playing melee competitively again.

I think (but I don't know b/c of my inexperience) that alot of the smash tourneys are sponsered by gaming stores. If that's right, than eventually some stores will recognize that a large group of people would be willing to pay for a melee tournament, so I assume that both brawl and melee tournaments will continue. As time continues, though, unless a strategy is developed to get past campers, melee is going to turn into the competitive standard.

I still think that people should give the idea of heavy brawl a chance.

 

[Bud]

I just have to say, fast brawl makes brawl faster (not too fast, but a little faster than melee) and makes it harder to air/spot dodge out of combos, it is more competitive for me and my friends and the offensive player has the advantage due to the speed/ability to combo. I suggest people play a day or two of fast brawl with their friends if you have not yet. Because I just cant go back to regular brawl after a month of fast brawl. It is a much better option than heavy brawl which ruins some characters, but the fast brawl DOES make camping less effective and allows for many more combos to be performed (try fox- dash attack, up tilt, jump dair, blah, blah, be creative and experience the wonder of fast brawl.)

 

[RDK]

I just have to say, fast brawl makes brawl faster (not too fast, but a little faster than melee) and makes it harder to air/spot dodge out of combos, it is more competitive for me and my friends and the offensive player has the advantage due to the speed/ability to combo. I suggest people play a day or two of fast brawl with their friends if you have not yet. Because I just cant go back to regular brawl after a month of fast brawl. It is a much better option than heavy brawl which ruins some characters, but the fast brawl DOES make camping less effective and allows for many more combos to be performed (try fox- dash attack, up tilt, jump dair, blah, blah, be creative and experience the wonder of fast brawl.)

You can do all those things in normal Brawl; just not as fast. The reason it seems easier to combo and harder to take advantage of dodging is because you're not playing at a pace you're used to. It doesn't make the actual gameplay properties suck less.

 

[peeup]

Which brings us back to heavy brawl--it kindof screws over sonic's up-B, but not too much else. Might have different timing for auto-cancelling, but that can be solved by relearning the timing.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Disagree.
These arguments need to just stop. They are two different games and are both equally suitable for competitive play. Some people prefer one or the other, and some like both. A preference is a preference.

you sir, truly understand that Brawl and Melee aren't the same and people need to start understanding that Brawl isn't Melee which I always seem to see on these boards

 

[peeup]

Thank you, GigaKoopa. In time, melee and brawl will have completely different competititve scenes. It could take a while, though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From what I've played and seen, it appears that whats needed to win in one game, (Melee, techs) isn't necessarily what is needed to win in the other game, (Brawl, ?).

Brawl is new, we don't know much about it other than how the games physics engine is different and that move properties have been altered.

 

[Zodiac]

From what I've played and seen, it appears that whats needed to win in one game, (Melee, techs) isn't necessarily what is needed to win in the other game, (Brawl, ?).

Brawl is new, we don't know much about it other than how the games physics engine is different and that move properties have been altered.

He know a LOT more than that about it.

It seems Gimpy fish's predictions are coming true,a the meta game is turing into a real campfest

 

[Gimpyfish62]

impressive bumping ability

 

[Corigames]

impressive bumping ability

I notice he grabbed this from... April.

...


APRIL?!?!?!? A dead thread from April? Wow. That is impressive.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He know a LOT more than that about it.

It seems Gimpy fish's predictions are coming true,a the meta game is turing into a real campfest

He probably does, but the game is still new to everyone. To say that it's going to regress the community to a much worse meta is premature to say.

From what I've seen camping is coming into a bit of favor in the recent, but it's still not much different than Melee was for it.

edit: I didn't even notice peeup bumped it, until Gimpy pointed it out. Oops on my part.

 

[bushido_wolf]

Less gimp kills seems like a good thing to me. Last time I checked, people shouldn't be able to kill at 17%, but I guess that's just me.

.

The combos are kinda the same from melee and thats why u think the game starts out with small combos and gimp kills and then declines. I think brawl emphasizes on playing many different characters and being albe to play them on an even playing field, there isn't really any new big bad combos b/c they are about the same or similar from melee. There will be some new stuff that people will find but nothing extraordinary, and thats probably what u were looking forward to. There is always going to be a view of good and bad characters, but i think that gap has been reduced and that is the point of brawl, atleast thats what i have seen

these two guys said it best

 

[RDK]

They really didn't.

 

[Pink Reaper]

impressive bumping ability

Did you NOT see the 7 year bump from the Melee boards? This is NOTHING compared to that.

 

[SiD]

wtf is the blade breakers

 

[Zodiac]

you sir, truly understand that Brawl and Melee aren't the same and people need to start understanding that Brawl isn't Melee which I always seem to see on these boards

No its not melee, and problem isnt that its not melee its that its not a fighting game...Eff this im getting into it again. screw it yes I am.. Its that its not believable as a fighting game.

Auto resposne "Melee wasnt meant to be a fighting game either" No but it did just as good of a job being as many other pro fighter games did.

And april... holy crap big bump, yea somebody bumped a seven year thread which was.. friggen awesome considering its contents.

 

[Falconv1.0]

This topic is epic beyond belief.

Kinda sad but what Gimpy says is true. Unless we start using epic mind games, this game is going to start phailing hard.

7 year bump? i gotta go find that shiz.

 

[Bud]

You can do all those things in normal Brawl; just not as fast. The reason it seems easier to combo and harder to take advantage of dodging is because you're not playing at a pace you're used to. It doesn't make the actual gameplay properties suck less.

yes, but it does make it faster which gives you the ability to punish noobs, and just as you said, makes the game faster which is one of the main problems, its just slow. Ive been playing fast brawl for a while now and the speed really helps, airdodging is less effective along with DI because its going too fast, really try it out with your friends for a while and watch how much better the games feel, I cant go back to normal brawl and really think alot of people would like the speed change (which is bassically all it changes), however it also gives the more experienced player the advantage by making airdodging, spotdodging, and chaingrabs less effective and makes the controles feel alot smoother. Also, many people I have played on it dont have the reaction time to get up after they are hit in time, so you can keep them on the ground if they are not playing fast. My point is fast brawl creates a much bigger skill gap, and you wont understand my point until you play about 20-30 games with your friends on fast brawl (try fox, falcon, dk, or peach or someone like that, they feel so awsome in fast mode and I promise the speed will eventually feel just like melee's speed, though it is faster. melee felt slow when I played it the other day. (because it is slower corey....duh)

 

[Corigames]

I highly doubt that and now I'm not going to even try it because that last remark destroyed any credibility you might have had from the rest of that entire post.

 

[Bud]

thats what I felt corey, melee IS slower than fast brawl; so explain how my credibility is lost. thats what I felt, can I not feel opinions/facts? But really try it, you will love it. Dont let my blasphemies ending ruin your fast brawl experience, you may just feel that melee is slower also ( which, literally, it is).
Honestly corey, you need to at least try it, dont be a sourpuss cause I said something that hurt you ears.

 

[Corigames]

No no no, the actual speed of Brawl could increase 100 times over, but that still doesn't mean that you can L-cancel or do anything to increase YOUR mobility. All you are doing is cranking up the general speed of the game. It's like setting DDR to 2X speed. You don't get anything new, it's just faster.

So yes, your credit score is still 0. I will never admit that Brawl COULD be faster than melee. It's just not feasible.

Besides, what about Fast Melee?

 

[Bud]

fast melee is too fast, you know that. When I say it felt faster, I mean you run, attack, shield, blah, blah, faster, and yes it does increase the general speed of the game. Honestly how are you arguing this, you havent even tried it. "its just not feasible"........try it (with friends, not bots). Thats all I can say I right now, because your obviously going to rebuttal everything I try to tell you by analyzing what I said way to critically, like the wave dash and l cancel. (reading what you said, it seems like you just dont want it to be good mainly because youve never tried it and are trying to tell me something you just dont know yet...try it corey, you know you want to)

 

[Corigames]

I could critically analyze the fact that you don't know the difference between your and you're or to and too am I? I could be doing that.

And what about you? You are saying that Fast Brawl is faster than Melee and I bet you can't even keep pace with an OK player in that game!

And you are saying that that is what you "felt" yet I'm not allowed to "feel" this way about the prospect of playing the game at high speed just so that it meets the competitive standard of the normals speed of its predecessor? No. Why not just play Melee if we are trying so hard to make it that? Why can't everyone just bust our Brawl when we've all had a couple of drinks and have a party time with it?

Thats all I can say I right now, because you're obviously going to rebuttal everything I try to tell you by analyzing what I said way too critically.

 

[Bud]

Im not trying to make brawl into melee, im trying to make brawl better, which it is for me thanks to fast brawl(in other words I am not saying fast brawl>melee, I am saying fast brawl>brawl). Why do you think I suck at melee, Ive been playing smash since 64 and have played my *** off in melee and WOULD hold my ground or possibly **** you in melee or you might **** me, but I DONT suck. Will you f-ing try it corey, or are you just not going to try it cause you think i suck. I am going to say this again, It DOES NOT make brawl like melee, it makes slow, boring brawl, faster; whats the problem with that (try it before you argue).

 

[Corigames]

Why should I trust you in be confident about an entire playing style for a game when you aren't even confident in your own skills? I doubt with every evidence in my smash experience that you hold any ability in the game because you fall into every category that is listed under scrub.

I don't have to play fast Brawl. I have the perception to guess exactly how it is going to turn out. Go back to melee and play in slow-mo and tell me if it is exactly like Brawl. Do it.

I don't really expect you to, because, I hope to God, that you would already know how it is going to be. Brawl in fast mode will be... *GASP*... faster. I know I know, it shouldn't be that obvious. My mind numbing clairvoyance just illuminates what is hidden from most people though. All this does is takes "slow boring brawl" and makes it fast, boring brawl. Big change.

No, I'm not going to try it. No, this way of playing isn't going to go anywhere. No, I still think you suck and would gladly play you in Melee and possibly in Brawl, but only if we play normal speed, normal weight, no items... >_>... <_<... Final Destination.

 

[peeup]

My mind numbing clairvoyance just illuminates what is hidden from most people though. All this does is takes "slow boring brawl" and makes it fast, boring brawl. Big change.

lol...

It seems like bumping this thread from april was a good thing, people still have ideas to discuss, although we're slowly drifting to special brawls...

Fast brawl is just normal brawl going faster. Campers can still camp, becasue they can camp twice as fast. It doesn't matter if you can run or jump twice as fast, because everything is going the same relative speed. Heavy brawl, though, allows for actually short-hopped arials, so you can get past campers. Plus, you can combo a bit easier. Sure, it still lacks wavedashing and L-cancelling, but hating brawl because it doesn't have those things is the worst reason out there for doing so. The only bad thing about heavy brawl is there is still no hitstun, but I personally think 15 or so new characters beats the ability to combo your opponent 0-death. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hI0qM8yC_w&amp;feature=related

 

[Bud]

corey, here is you in a nutshell. "cookies are better than cake, though Ive never tasted cake"... taste the cake. Im sending you all my videos when I get them uploaded at the end of this summer so this little noob theory can be put to rest. why am I a noob again? oh you have never seen me play? is it my grammar?

 

[peeup]

Fast brawl is more intense than normal brawl, but once you have relearned the speed, all it is is faster, which doesn't change much. I've tasted the cake, and I like cookies.

 

[Zankoku]

corey, here is you in a nutshell. "cookies are better than cake, though Ive never tasted cake"... taste the cake. Im sending you all my videos when I get them uploaded at the end of this summer so this little noob theory can be put to rest. why am I a noob again? oh you have never seen me play? is it my grammar?

It's more like you're claiming that, though cookies (Melee) are better than cake (Brawl), if you add some candles to the cake it'll taste better.

 

[Dime]

Backwards progression?

So brawl is an oxymoron now…. Nice

 

[Bud]

hell yeah it would taste better......(cookies=brawl -- cake=fast brawl).

 

[Zankoku]

I don't understand how taking a game and giving an x1.5 speed modifier can transform it into a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND AMAZING GAME OMG. So if I take Fast Brawl's cake and tack on 300HP Stamina mode to that, does it become a cupcake? Oh, oh, and let's put the damage ratio on 1.2 to turn that cupcake into a Phyrexian Colossus.

Too good.

 

[Samochan]

The cake goes bad quickly while still looking good, but it will not taste as good as cookies which stay in better condition longer and still taste nice. :3

Chocolate cake preserves longer than cream cake, but cream cake is more juicy and things. Chocolate cake is like camping with snake: you can eat it for a while but soon you will get stuffed and can't eat anything anymore.

 

[Skler]

From what I've played and seen, it appears that whats needed to win in one game, (Melee, techs) isn't necessarily what is needed to win in the other game, (Brawl, ?).

I'd like to let people focus on this little gem. Techs are all that matter in melee, this is why only the most technical players win tournaments. How can you be so stupid? Have you ever seen the finals of a melee tournament or are you just making this **** up on the spot? We also know what it takes to win in Brawl, patience and prediction.

I'm not one to flame, but you have no idea what you're talking about and should stop posting about Melee until you actually learn what Melee is about.

Edit: Lol phyrexian colossus.