Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[shatoga]

...What? Who are you to say i'll stop using combos and stuff? You can't ever tell what the future holds. Maybe their be a new wavedash technique or something else that's revolutionary.

 

[KernelColonel]

The biggest issue right now that i'm dealing with is brawl as it is right now is a complete joke

HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[theONEjanitor]

In Melee you had to think, and you actually had to be fast about it. There were so many situations that could arise within the next 1 - 2 seconds that you had to be thinking constantly about what could happen. For instance, Fox edgeguarding Fox/Falco, the whole process takes approximately 1 second. In that time you have to decide whether your opponent is going to try to sweetspot the edge with an over-B, sweet spot with an up-B, up-B above the edge and move onto the stage, up-B into the stage, over-B to land on the stage, shortened over-B to grab the edge, over-B onto a platform, and up-B onto a platform. Each one of these requires a different edgeguarding tactic, and you have to decide which to use in about one second. And this is just one situation. There are hundreds more of situations like this where you have to think extremely quickly about what to do, and then you have to execute a plan to deal with the situation, in a very limited amount of time.

So don't say in Melee you don't have to think or outwit your opponent. That's just not true. You just have to think a lot faster. For some people, maybe they aren't able to think that fast so they just do random things, but the farther you advance competitively, the more every single move is done for a purpose. Because if you do something that the situation doesn't call for, chances are good you're going to be punished, which in Melee is a lot more than taking a random hit. You have to be thinking CONSTANTLY.

In the Melee, "thinking" amounted to "is he going to hit me right now", if the answer is yes, press button sequence A, if no press button sequence B. I'm not saying its impossible to use mindgames and think in Melee, i'm saying YOU DON'T HAVE TO for the most part. The overwhelming majority of player have one specific favorite way to recover from the edge, and they AUTOMATICALLY do it without thinking, everytime UNTIL they begin to get punished for it. I'm sure you don't still think this, but i've heard you yourself say in the past that your main strat for Fox was to spam drillshine and kill with up-smash. This basically defines how most people play Melee. They press pre-remembered buttons really fast in hopes they they are too fast for their opponents.
Winning in Melee was a matter of not messing up and being faster than your opponent. That's all it takes to win in Melee. It's very very rare that someone actually wins by out thinking their opponent.
When i play Fox in melee, I dash dance/wavedash around, and space n-airs, and wait for the opponent to mess up, in which time I drillshine, waveshine to grab upthrow-upair, or upsmash, or another waveshine, depending on the character. it requires no thinking. AND IT WORKS. With falcon I attempt to space nairs, and immediately grab--downthrow, and either up-air or knee. i do this because I already know it will work. if I avoid getting hit and keep doing this, I will win. it requires no thinking, and It works. I'm not the greatest player, but the only reason I lose is when I mess up, or when my opponent is faster than me. It just so happens that most people who've practice for so long are much faster and more efficient than me. I've never felt like "omg that dude totally tricked me or mindgamed me" THAT NEVER HAPPENS. (in brawl, this happens almost everytime you hit someone if its not because they simply don't know the game well) What happens in Melee is, "omg that dude totally did a pre-remembered combo sequence on me".

When someone capitalizes on a mistake, its not because they had to "think". its because they knew automatically what to do in this situation. If they DI toward me, this will work. Its pre-remembered. The only brain function involved is looking and confirming they have indeed DI'd towards you.

Melee was a game of learning combos and remember techs and tactics. There was very little thinking needed to be a good player. Those who did implement TRUE on-the-spot thinking, those were the people that rose above everyone else. But it wasn't necessary to be considered a good player.

In Brawl, sure there are tactics to learn, but they don't work every time, and we've still got more time to learn stuff about the game, but as of now, Brawl is almost all in-game adaptation and prediction. Sure we memorize which moves do what, but what we actually meomrize is limited due to how much the game let's people get away from combos.

 

[Superstarmario]

In the Melee, "thinking" amounted to "is he going to hit me right now", if the answer is yes, press button sequence A, if no press button sequence B. I'm not saying its impossible to use mindgames and think in Melee, i'm saying YOU DON'T HAVE TO for the most part. The overwhelming majority of player have one specific favorite way to recover from the edge, and they AUTOMATICALLY do it without thinking, everytime UNTIL they begin to get punished for it. I'm sure you don't still think this, but i've heard you yourself say in the past that your main strat for Fox was to spam drillshine and kill with up-smash. This basically defines how most people play Melee. They press pre-remembered buttons really fast in hopes they they are too fast for their opponents.
Winning in Melee was a matter of not messing up and being faster than your opponent. That's all it takes to win in Melee. It's very very rare that someone actually wins by out thinking their opponent.


In Brawl, sure there are tactics to learn, but they don't work every time, and we've still got more time to learn stuff about the game, but as of now, Brawl is almost all in-game adaptation and prediction. Sure we memorize which moves do what, but what we actually meomrize is limited due to how much the game let's people get away from combos.

Unless we elminate Pit, Toon Link, Falco, Wolf and (sadly) Dedede from Meta game then Brawl will never have any sort of good mindgames. If you're gonna dumb it down, basically the tactical Brawl mindsets boils down to:

* RUN RUN RUN BOOMERANG ARROW BOOMERANG BOOMERANG BOMB ARROW BOOMERANG FSMASH, STOCK*

 

[himynameisruss]

this is just like the transition from counter-strike 1.6 to counter-strike: source.

source is just a dumbed down version of 1.6 with a lot of it's technical and skill oriented aspects taken out. recoil is almost non-existant and easy to control in source, where it took time to master all of the different weapon recoils in 1.6. you can run into a room in source and spray and take out an entire team because the accuracy of the weapons is so much more dumbed down from 1.6, where you needed to learn how to burst-fire or control recoil to be able to hit your opponent at a constant rate. even shooting through walls, which was a big techincal aspect in 1.6, was almost completely removed in source.

there are a bunch of other tiny techical aspects that were also removed, even further making it easymode.

of course, 95% of the casuals you come across in game will tell you that counter-strike: source is the obviously better game of the two.

most competitive players realized the game was bad, and stuck with 1.6. most large tournaments, such as CPL, eventually dropped 1.6 for source altogether so the top teams of counter-strike switched over so they could still participate and make money. even now, the players in 1.6 outnumber the players in source around 3:1. there are a lot of leagues online that still support 1.6 (caleague, cevo, esea for examples) and a lot of people still compete (just as many as do source).


this is exactly how it can work for melee/brawl. you don't have to quit playing melee and start playing brawl just because brawl is the newer game. there can be a competitive scene for both brawl and melee if we want there to be.

 

[Red Exodus]

Concerning the discovery of techniques:


Yes, yes the game is new we all know that. At first I used that same tired argument but then I began to realize how many people were trying to find anything to make into a technique. There are people constantly trying to find anything to hold onto, where unlike melee, we know have people that know what to look for and how to look for it. People have been trying to find all sorts of cancels and tricks to make Brawl require some form of advanced knowledge of your character but so far hardly anything has turned up.

Character specific techniques hardly count. So what if one character has a WD, what about the other 38 characters? What do they have? Not much. Soon it'll just become a battle of which character has the best techniques and it'll be the whole tier ***** problem all over again.


I'm tired of these arguments so basically I'll just sit back and see what happens because what I have to say is not going to make brawl any better competitively.

 

[Gluttony]

I came from the Halo community as well and while there is some merit to the comparison, I don't think Brawl will find anything to save itself because the changes to the engine are too significant.

Changes from Halo CE to Halo 2 were mostly a series of minor changes that cumulatively made for a weaker game. For instance, larger hit boxes for online play, instant-explosion grenades, easier melees, more auto-aim, more reticule magnetism, less balanced maps, broken weapons (plasma pistol...). It was still very recognizably Halo and the game felt more or less the same, the largest MAJOR changes being the decreased viewing angle from 90 to 70 degrees, the decreased run speed, and the introduction of a hit-scan based projectile system. But someone good at Halo CE could pick up Halo 2 with no problem and in fact might not even notice some of these changes without really looking for them.

On the other hand, Brawl is an entirely differen beast from Melee. They don't feel similar at all. The core mechanics of Melee were abandoned and the new engine is completely different.

Moreover, the naive notion that glitch discovery is inevitable is not true just because it happened with SOME other games. When developers make a very conscious effort to dumb down gameplay like Nintendo did with Brawl, and when thousands of people have been deliberately searching for these glitches, knowing the kinds of things to look for, and still haven't found anything, this naive optimism becomes unwarranted.

The physics engine in the Halo games is much more complicated than Smash. There are so many possible weaponglitches, and they can be very obscure. In Halo 2 the doubleshot, for instance, is a very obscure technique that took a long time to discover because there's no reason to expect the battle rifle to perform that way. The exploits in Smash, however, are fundamental consequences of the physics engine. Wavedashing is just airdodging at an angle such that the game conserves momentum. I couldn't even begin to describe how the doubleshot works. You press R, rapidly press R again, while holding hit X. The timing is difficult. Why does it work this way? I have no idea. It's undoubtedly an actual glitch.

There were very few true glitches throughout the Smash series, I think, because the physics engines are simpler than in FPS. You don't have the complex terrains to map, just 2-D stages. You don't have to design ballistics systems for all these different guns. There are just way fewer things that can go wrong.

I don't think anything significant will come up because Nintendo tried to very hard to avoid players gaining any kind of advantage, much like Bungie did with Halo 3. Halo CE was good by accident, Halo 2 was playable by even bigger accident, but as far as I know Halo 3 is complete garbage. At some point a developer wises up to these accidents.

This is completely true. Brawl is a completely different beast from Melee. This is why I enjoy Brawl just as much as Melee. I made a post explaining how both games are equal but the type of players that enjoy Brawl aren't the same kind of players that enjoy melee (there is a few exceptions out there.) I actually enjoy the defense oriented Brawl game just as much as the offense oriented Melee game. The two are just as deep. You're just not seeing it because you're not the type of player that enjoys Brawl's style. This does not mean that Brawl sucks. Look at some of my previous posts in this thread that explains the skill involved in Brawl.

Brawl is more comparable to chess than a traditional fighter which is why so many competitive players are having problems with it. It's not that they suck at the game but that they find it boring. I don't and some other people don't as well.

 

[Mario77]

Wtf Y Is Everyone Switching Melee For Brawl??? In your posts??

 

[Gluttony]

Wtf Y Is Everyone Switching Melee For Brawl??? In your posts??

We're not. It's the april fools thing. The site automaticly changes certain words into other words. Sometimes it's the opposit or something entirely different.

 

[IShotLazer]

the entire idea of the game was completely counter productive to itself and its franchise and completely ignorant to the idea of the competive market and the art of re-buying a game.
I'm already at tournament level gameplay in my region and i havent done jack ****, its quite sad really.
Now im not bragging at my skill, the point im illustrating is that the game is insanely shallow when compared to melee and when the simple complexities (oxymoron in my boards? its more likely than you think) of the gameplay is discovered... or rather just thought about, the game suddenly becomes a massive camp spam fest where thinking, quick reaction skills and overall inginuity of it all somehow never seem to cross paths when your playing 8rawl.

edit: wth... is brawl being filtered into melee?
8rawl m3l33, it is watch out...

 

[MookieRah]

LOL, you gotta love the word filter. It's making things quite chaotic and humorous XD.

 

[Fletch]

This thread is now impossible to read.

 

[Demon Kirby]

LOL, you gotta love the word filter. It's making things quite chaotic and humorous XD.

That's what this day is for, dude.

 

[Gluttony]

the entire idea of the game was completely counter productive to itself and its franchise and completely ignorant to the idea of the competive market and the art of re-buying a game.
I'm already at tournament level gameplay in my region and i havent done jack ****, its quite sad really.
Now im not bragging at my skill, the point im illustrating is that the game is insanely shallow when compared to melee and when the simple complexities (oxymoron in my boards? its more likely than you think) of the gameplay is discovered... or rather just thought about, the game suddenly becomes a massive camp spam fest where thinking, quick reaction skills and overall inginuity of it all somehow never seem to cross paths when your playing 8rawl.

edit: wth... is brawl being filtered into melee?
8rawl m3l33, it is watch out...

Brawl isn't just a mindless campfest. If this was the case then a better player would occasionally lose to a worse player. None of my friends can best me in Brawl. I am not bragging about my skill but there is skill involved. I won't claim that the game never turns into camping but that doesn't mean the skill isn't there. The fast paced combos are no longer there in Brawl. If you try to be offensive all the time you're going to lose for sure. This is true as well. The game now requires a lot of thinking. Every move has to be thought out. Every action. Now it's important to try to get your opponent to make a move you want to them to make.

This won't win you the game as it would in melee. You have to be able to consistantly do this in order to have the match. Another part of the game is patience. You must have impeccable defense. While doing your defense you got to outlast your opponent and whittle away at his health. When he's killable you got to be able to safely predict his moves in order to approach and make the kill. The games last a lot longer than melee. Everything must be thought out. Every move you make must be precise, accurate, and on time. Spacing is very important. Mind games are very important. If you approach you're putting everything on the line. If you screw up you take damage, they're untouched, and you're back at square one leaving them with a major advantage.

I understand that most people cannot get into a style like this but some of us actually like it. To win a game of Brawl you have to be several steps ahead of your opponent. I'm leaving out some other tactics but they're not all necessary. I am not claiming that Brawl takes more skill than melee. It just takes a different kind of skill. Brawl is more about tactics, strategy, and a bit of cleverness. Melee is about combos, reflex, and quick thinking. Of course this isn't all that's involved in both games but it's an example. So please stop trying to claim that overall Brawl is a worse game. In the traditional fighter sense? Perhaps it is but as a game? No. The competitive nature in Brawl is equal to Melee if you count out the tripping but tripping isn't bad enough to break the game either.

Brawl is very different than the two previous games before it. It has little in common in terms of strategy than the past games. This is why I claim that Brawl resembles chess more than a traditional fighter. It's like chess with a fighter twist or perhaps a fighter with a chess like twist. This isn't to say it's exactly like chess or requires the same ammount of intelligence or strategy as chess. It's just more comparable to chess than a traditional fighter. You guys hate competitive Brawl. I like competitive brawl. I am sorry if they stop hosting Melee tournaments. I don't think this should happen considering how different brawl is compared to melee but if it does? There's not much that can be done.

 

[abgar]

i just love how everyone saying that bra wl sucks is now saying that mele e sucks

 

[Red Exodus]

This is worst than that pokemon thing last year >.>

I almost didn't play Brawl today, that felt very weird.

EDIT: They did Pikmin too?

Testing: Mario, Donkey Kong, F-zero, Metroid, Fire Emblem, SSB64.

I declare war!

 

[Demon Kirby]

What "p0kemon thing"?

Please tell.

 

[abgar]

pokemon = pikmin

pikmin = pokemon

??

 

[Red Exodus]

Last year they gave SWF a pikmin theme complete with pikmin yellow music and a pikachu design.

 

[WestStar]

WOW, I hate April Fool's Day =(. I still understand everything though. Hopefully.

 

[controlfreak7]

This may be their solution to having us shut the **** up lol i like (l i k e) how I k e got changed to ike lol..

This will end all the current debates.. =D

 

[Shai Hulud]

In the Melee, "thinking" amounted to "is he going to hit me right now", if the answer is yes, press button sequence A, if no press button sequence B.

This really isn't true. There are always a lot of scenarios that can arise in very short amounts of time, and you have to be thinking about what to do for those scenarios. If I'm sitting there laser camping I do have to constantly be answering the question "is he going to hit me right now" but at the same time I'm looking for my own openings, thinking about what moves will combo into kill moves, etc., based on the damage my opponent is at. It's also not as simple as "if yes, A else B" as there are a variety of tactics that may or may not work depending on specific approaches. In a Fox vs. Falco match for instance, I might try to intercept a dair with a utilt, usmash, or shield and try to time a shield grab or JC shine.

I'm not saying its impossible to use mindgames and think in Melee, i'm saying YOU DON'T HAVE TO for the most part.

Not true at all, except at very low levels of play. Tech skill only gets you so far. At most tournaments everyone's tech skill is near the same level, anyway. Most good tournament players are capable of playing Fox, the most tech-heavy character in the game. Yet choosing Fox hardly grants an automatic victory, even if you have very high tech skill. His matchups are more complicated than many other characters and you have to know them very well.

The overwhelming majority of player have one specific favorite way to recover from the edge, and they AUTOMATICALLY do it without thinking, everytime UNTIL they begin to get punished for it.

I very much doubt it. Again this is perhaps true at very low levels of play, but anyone not thinking will be punished, especially for something like recovering in the same pattern.

I'm sure you don't still think this, but i've heard you yourself say in the past that your main strat for Fox was to spam drillshine and kill with up-smash. This basically defines how most people play Melee. They press pre-remembered buttons really fast in hopes they they are too fast for their opponents.

I do remember telling you something like this, but I was using hyperbole, emphasizing my lack of knowledge of Fox at the time. Fox's dair is actually not that spammable, due to its tiny hitboxes and lack of priority. Most any move will beat it. Even if you hit with a dair, it frequently gets DId so the shine will miss if you don't quickly react to your opponents DI by slamming left/right to adjust the dair. Fox's most spammable move is perfectly SHFFLd nairs, which are fairly hard to do and highly punishable if you mess up. For instance, Peach can CC into a dsmash if you don't fast fall it. You also get dsmashed if you miss an L-cancel or misspace the nair so the shine misses. This translates to something like 60 damage since Fox will be holding down at the time. Usmash is not spammable either. I usually try to combo into it or else uthrow => uair which although inescapable for many characters is not that easy to do.

Winning in Melee was a matter of not messing up and being faster than your opponent. That's all it takes to win in Melee. It's very very rare that someone actually wins by out thinking their opponent.

How could you possibly even know this? It may not be apparent to you that people are thinking during their matches but they probably are. The only way you could know this is if you were winning tournaments without thinking, or else if others winning tournaments admitted they do not think. I've never even heard of this happening. Silent Wolf generally gets wrecked by Ka-Master despite being one of the most technical Foxes in the world. Technical proficiency doesn't let you win, at all. Else I'd be amazing at this game.

When i play Fox in melee, I dash dance/wavedash around, and space n-airs, and wait for the opponent to mess up, in which time I drillshine, waveshine to grab upthrow-upair, or upsmash, or another waveshine, depending on the character. it requires no thinking. AND IT WORKS.

Against whom? I can't really contradict you since I haven't played you in a long time, but unless your Fox has improved drastically this seems unlikely. Regardless, you contradict yourself in this statement. Your DD/wd camping and error baiting is thinking. You admit you don't attack indiscriminately, you try to create openings and then attack when you see them. That's thinking.

With falcon I attempt to space nairs, and immediately grab--downthrow, and either up-air or knee. i do this because I already know it will work. if I avoid getting hit and keep doing this, I will win. it requires no thinking, and It works.

I've never seen your Falcon, but I've played NES n00b's Falcon quite a bit. He's good. He doesn't play how you describe at all. Falcon is a complicated character. His combos require rapid improvisation based on opponent's DI, tech-chasing, etc., and precise spacing to properly execute them. His recovery is also so horrible that the Falcon has to be EXTREMELY smart about his recovery to even have a chance of not getting *****.

I'm not the greatest player, but the only reason I lose is when I mess up, or when my opponent is faster than me.

How do you know why you lose? The only explanation of losing you can be certain about is "I got outplayed." Perhaps you can try to attribute your loss to certain critical errors that lead to stock conversions. Perhaps your opponent also made errors and you didn't capitalize as well. "My opponent is faster than me"--what does this even mean? He hits buttons faster than you? He thinks and reacts faster than you? That sounds like a valid reason for losing to me, and is generally what is meant by "I got outplayed."

It just so happens that most people who've practice for so long are much faster and more efficient than me. I've never felt like "omg that dude totally tricked me or mindgamed me" THAT NEVER HAPPENS. (in brawl, this happens almost everytime you hit someone if its not because they simply don't know the game well)

So keep practicing. Melee has a high learning curve, admittedly, but rapid improvement is popular. I've been playing not much longer than a year, in Mississippi, and I've gotten OKAY at this game. I can get a lot better.

What happens in Melee is, "omg that dude totally did a pre-remembered combo sequence on me".

There really are no combos in Melee that work like this. Even simple combos like chaingrabs are a little more complicated to execute. Marth's chaingrab against the spacies for instance requires watching DI, adjusting grab direction, pivoting grabs around 28 - 30, when to transition into utilts, when to regrab, when to attempt a tipper, etc. It's not set in stone. You have to play fluidly. Even the type of combos you're probably thinking of, like drillshine combos, are not that straightforward. First off your opponent can DI the drill. Assume your shine connects though. From this point there are a variety of things that can happen. Some characters fall, and if you do a perfect wavedash you can jab them to make them stand or roll. Depending on which they do, you time a uair. For the characters that don't fall, a variety of things can happen. Take Marth for instance. If Marth DIs toward you a wavedash => usmash will work. If he doesn't DI or DIs away even a perfect wavedash will not generally hit, so you wavedash => dash => JC grab => uthrow. Now, depending on your opponent's damage, you either have to do a FJ => uair, instant double jump => uair, or late timed double jump => uair. This depends on how he DIs the throw as well. You have to mash left/right immediately if he DIs the throw. He can also smash DI the first hit of the uair. If you're paying attention you can follow him as he falls to the ground and perhaps hit him anyway. But if you're just randomly throwing out these "drillshine combos" you will have a much lower success rate than you would if you were thinking, which means you will lose against thinking opponents. Basically, the types of combos you're thinking of, with some exceptions, do not really exist because of DI.

When someone capitalizes on a mistake, its not because they had to "think". its because they knew automatically what to do in this situation. If they DI toward me, this will work. Its pre-remembered. The only brain function involved is looking and confirming they have indeed DI'd towards you.

You're using a strange definition of thinking. We're not talking about abstract reasoning or writing dissertations here. We're talking about rapid mental computations and decision-making. Generally if your opponent "outthinks" you this just means he's always a step ahead of you because he predicts and reacts to your behavior faster than you do to his.

Melee was a game of learning combos and remember techs and tactics. There was very little thinking needed to be a good player. Those who did implement TRUE on-the-spot thinking, those were the people that rose above everyone else. But it wasn't necessary to be considered a good player.

Name one good player who doesn't play smart. Just one.

In Brawl, sure there are tactics to learn, but they don't work every time, and we've still got more time to learn stuff about the game, but as of now, Brawl is almost all in-game adaptation and prediction. Sure we memorize which moves do what, but what we actually meomrize is limited due to how much the game let's people get away from combos.

I think Brawl will devolve into MORE memorization because what will become important is knowing the sizes of hitboxes so you can precisely space that GW bair.

I think the argument that Brawl requires more thinking is not true, but a similar argument might be--the smarter player in Brawl will always win (excluding randomness like tripping), whereas the smarter player in Melee might not. That's because there's no tech skill, so the aspect of punishing mistakes is less extant since there will be so few punishable mistakes. I don't think this makes a better game, but I can see how others might.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

This really isn't true. There are always a lot of scenarios that can arise in very short amounts of time, and you have to be thinking about what to do for those scenarios. If I'm sitting there laser camping I do have to constantly be answering the question "is he going to hit me right now" but at the same time I'm looking for my own openings, thinking about what moves will combo into kill moves, etc., based on the damage my opponent is at. It's also not as simple as "if yes, A else B" as there are a variety of tactics that may or may not work depending on specific approaches. In a Fox vs. Falco match for instance, I might try to intercept a dair with a utilt, usmash, or shield and try to time a shield grab or JC shine.


Not true at all, except at very low levels of play. Tech skill only gets you so far. At most tournaments everyone's tech skill is near the same level, anyway. Most good tournament players are capable of playing Fox, the most tech-heavy character in the game. Yet choosing Fox hardly grants an automatic victory, even if you have very high tech skill. His matchups are more complicated than many other characters and you have to know them very well.


I very much doubt it. Again this is perhaps true at very low levels of play, but anyone not thinking will be punished, especially for something like recovering in the same pattern.


I do remember telling you something like this, but I was using hyperbole, emphasizing my lack of knowledge of Fox at the time. Fox's dair is actually not that spammable, due to its tiny hitboxes and lack of priority. Most any move will beat it. Even if you hit with a dair, it frequently gets DId so the shine will miss if you don't quickly react to your opponents DI by slamming left/right to adjust the dair. Fox's most spammable move is perfectly SHFFLd nairs, which are fairly hard to do and highly punishable if you mess up. For instance, Peach can CC into a dsmash if you don't fast fall it. You also get dsmashed if you miss an L-cancel or misspace the nair so the shine misses. This translates to something like 60 damage since Fox will be holding down at the time. Usmash is not spammable either. I usually try to combo into it or else uthrow => uair which although inescapable for many characters is not that easy to do.


How could you possibly even know this? It may not be apparent to you that people are thinking during their matches but they probably are. The only way you could know this is if you were winning tournaments without thinking, or else if others winning tournaments admitted they do not think. I've never even heard of this happening. Silent Wolf generally gets wrecked by Ka-Master despite being one of the most technical Foxes in the world. Technical proficiency doesn't let you win, at all. Else I'd be amazing at this game.


Against whom? I can't really contradict you since I haven't played you in a long time, but unless your Fox has improved drastically this seems unlikely. Regardless, you contradict yourself in this statement. Your DD/wd camping and error baiting is thinking. You admit you don't attack indiscriminately, you try to create openings and then attack when you see them. That's thinking.


I've never seen your Falcon, but I've played NES n00b's Falcon quite a bit. He's good. He doesn't play how you describe at all. Falcon is a complicated character. His combos require rapid improvisation based on opponent's DI, tech-chasing, etc., and precise spacing to properly execute them. His recovery is also so horrible that the Falcon has to be EXTREMELY smart about his recovery to even have a chance of not getting *****.


How do you know why you lose? The only explanation of losing you can be certain about is "I got outplayed." Perhaps you can try to attribute your loss to certain critical errors that lead to stock conversions. Perhaps your opponent also made errors and you didn't capitalize as well. "My opponent is faster than me"--what does this even mean? He hits buttons faster than you? He thinks and reacts faster than you? That sounds like a valid reason for losing to me, and is generally what is meant by "I got outplayed."


So keep practicing. Melee has a high learning curve, admittedly, but rapid improvement is popular. I've been playing not much longer than a year, in Mississippi, and I've gotten OKAY at this game. I can get a lot better.


There really are no combos in Melee that work like this. Even simple combos like chaingrabs are a little more complicated to execute. Marth's chaingrab against the spacies for instance requires watching DI, adjusting grab direction, pivoting grabs around 28 - 30, when to transition into utilts, when to regrab, when to attempt a tipper, etc. It's not set in stone. You have to play fluidly. Even the type of combos you're probably thinking of, like drillshine combos, are not that straightforward. First off your opponent can DI the drill. Assume your shine connects though. From this point there are a variety of things that can happen. Some characters fall, and if you do a perfect wavedash you can jab them to make them stand or roll. Depending on which they do, you time a uair. For the characters that don't fall, a variety of things can happen. Take Marth for instance. If Marth DIs toward you a wavedash => usmash will work. If he doesn't DI or DIs away even a perfect wavedash will not generally hit, so you wavedash => dash => JC grab => uthrow. Now, depending on your opponent's damage, you either have to do a FJ => uair, instant double jump => uair, or late timed double jump => uair. This depends on how he DIs the throw as well. You have to mash left/right immediately if he DIs the throw. He can also smash DI the first hit of the uair. If you're paying attention you can follow him as he falls to the ground and perhaps hit him anyway. But if you're just randomly throwing out these "drillshine combos" you will have a much lower success rate than you would if you were thinking, which means you will lose against thinking opponents. Basically, the types of combos you're thinking of, with some exceptions, do not really exist because of DI.



You're using a strange definition of thinking. We're not talking about abstract reasoning or writing dissertations here. We're talking about rapid mental computations and decision-making. Generally if your opponent "outthinks" you this just means he's always a step ahead of you because he predicts and reacts to your behavior faster than you do to his.


Name one good player who doesn't play smart. Just one.


I think Brawl will devolve into MORE memorization because what will become important is knowing the sizes of hitboxes so you can precisely space that GW bair.

I think the argument that Brawl requires more thinking is not true, but a similar argument might be--the smarter player in Brawl will always win (excluding randomness like tripping), whereas the smarter player in Melee might not. That's because there's no tech skill, so the aspect of punishing mistakes is less extant since there will be so few punishable mistakes. I don't think this makes a better game, but I can see how others might.

wheeeeeeeeeee, zhu falco forward pc chris m2k mew2king mango

 

[SiD]

Melee Brawl Time

lol.

Any other words changing?

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I'm not the greatest player, but the only reason I lose is when I mess up, or when my opponent is faster than me. It just so happens that most people who've practice for so long are much faster and more efficient than me. I've never felt like "omg that dude totally tricked me or mindgamed me" THAT NEVER HAPPENS.

WOW

John much?

 

[Pink Reaper]

WOW

John much?

Seriously, he thinks that faster fingers are the only thing that beats him?

I've played people who were WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more technical than me, fox players how could quadruple jump shine to SHDL. And beat them. Because they think multi-shining and SHDL are the only things they need to win.

PS. If you happen to be the Fox player that I beat at UCLA, please PM me, I want to give shout outs but I can't remember anyone I played >_>

 

[ArticulacyFTW]

Brawl isn't just a mindless campfest. If this was the case then a better player would occasionally lose to a worse player. None of my friends can best me in Brawl. I am not bragging about my skill but there is skill involved. I won't claim that the game never turns into camping but that doesn't mean the skill isn't there. The fast paced combos are no longer there in Brawl. If you try to be offensive all the time you're going to lose for sure. This is true as well. The game now requires a lot of thinking. Every move has to be thought out. Every action. Now it's important to try to get your opponent to make a move you want to them to make.

This won't win you the game as it would in melee. You have to be able to consistantly do this in order to have the match. Another part of the game is patience. You must have impeccable defense. While doing your defense you got to outlast your opponent and whittle away at his health. When he's killable you got to be able to safely predict his moves in order to approach and make the kill. The games last a lot longer than melee. Everything must be thought out. Every move you make must be precise, accurate, and on time. Spacing is very important. Mind games are very important. If you approach you're putting everything on the line. If you screw up you take damage, they're untouched, and you're back at square one leaving them with a major advantage.

I understand that most people cannot get into a style like this but some of us actually like it. To win a game of Brawl you have to be several steps ahead of your opponent. I'm leaving out some other tactics but they're not all necessary. I am not claiming that Brawl takes more skill than melee. It just takes a different kind of skill. Brawl is more about tactics, strategy, and a bit of cleverness. Melee is about combos, reflex, and quick thinking. Of course this isn't all that's involved in both games but it's an example. So please stop trying to claim that overall Brawl is a worse game. In the traditional fighter sense? Perhaps it is but as a game? No. The competitive nature in Brawl is equal to Melee if you count out the tripping but tripping isn't bad enough to break the game either.

Brawl is very different than the two previous games before it. It has little in common in terms of strategy than the past games. This is why I claim that Brawl resembles chess more than a traditional fighter. It's like chess with a fighter twist or perhaps a fighter with a chess like twist. This isn't to say it's exactly like chess or requires the same ammount of intelligence or strategy as chess. It's just more comparable to chess than a traditional fighter. You guys hate competitive Brawl. I like competitive brawl. I am sorry if they stop hosting Melee tournaments. I don't think this should happen considering how different brawl is compared to melee but if it does? There's not much that can be done.

Great post. Except the very first point might not really be accurate, as it would probably just come down to the better camper.

All of my friends that have played Brawl have essentially come to the conclusion that it is simply a better Melee. Now, that may be because of the fact that by and large my friends have not been competitive smashers, and this game seems much more intuitive than Melee was.

But I'd really like to point out the fact that the absence of advanced techniques, whether or not this will always be the case, will not by itself have *any* effect on the competitiveness of Brawl. You don't need to be able to do fundamentally different things than your opponent in order to be better than them, and you don't have to have a special, super advanced moves in order to make a game want to be played in a competitive way. Or for the game to be deep. Poker and chess are great examples of this. Yes, there are advanced ways of playing those games, but you're not doing fundamentally different things than new players (like wavedashing, chain grabbing, shffling, etc.) you're just utilizing the available techniques in a much better way. And it's clear that in those games there are people that are just on a completely different level than beginners, and they are extremely competitive.

However, the lack of combos is much more troubling. It is true that actually being able to punish an opponents mistakes is an important part of a competitive game. At the same time, it is also true that it's not necessary that every single mistake should be able to be punished extremely severely. I think there is still a great deal of time to see where this kind of thing will go. To be honest, among my friends, combos were never really a huge thing in melee, and we still played that game to death. And the better players still won a vast majority of the time.

Something that I think the community should consider is having ffa tournaments. I was actually arguing against my brother when he brought up this idea earlier today, so I understand most of the counterpoints. I know there would be a tremendous amount of resistance to this sort of thing, but perhaps we should embrace Smash's differences from the rest of the fighting genre. It would almost totally remove the camping problem, as camping can often be a horrible strategy in a 4 player match (not always, but it would reduce it to an acceptable level, I think). Of course, combos would probably be even harder to come by, and sometimes matches could sometimes be decided by how many friends you have, and a whole host of other things, and I don't necessarily think that it's a great idea, I just think it's something that should be explored.

On another note--I play ROB, who is definitely one of the defensive, campy characters, and yet his most often praised moves (aside from recovery assistance) are his D-smash and his F-air, which both require you to be in the thick of things (well, D-smash is kind of defensive with it's ridiculous range to both sides, but still). And Metaknight is a quite popular, and well regarded character, and it's basically impossible to camp with him.

Another thing is that I think something that had added a lot to the game is that edge game seems to be a much bigger part of the game than in previous installments, and that has always seemed to be a very skill intense, very tense and interesting part of the game. Some of my favorite vids from Melee feature extended edge guard scenarios, and those happen a lot in Brawl. Spikes and chasing through the air and ridiculous, unexpected recoveries will abound in advanced Brawl, I think.

 

[NES n00b]

I've never seen your Falco, but I've played NES n00b's Falco quite a bit. He's good. He doesn't play how you describe at all. Falco is a complicated character. His combos require rapid improvisation based on opponent's DI, tech-chasing, etc., and precise spacing to properly execute them. His recovery is also so horrible that the Falco has to be EXTREMELY smart about his recovery to even have a chance of not getting *****.

**** straight son. I mindgame all sorts of *****es. XD lol

 

[Eki]

sonic? ike? Marth? Samus!

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

Something Bizarre I noticed

Everyone in this thread so far has been referring to "Melee" as the game that came out in 2001, and using "Brawl" to describe the game that came out on March 9. Does anyone else think that's a bit weird?

Edit: I realised once I had posted that for some reason the forum changed "Melee" into "Brawl" and "Brawl" into "Melee." Just some strange joke by a moderator, maybe a play on the "backward progression" title of the thread.

 

[RoyalRook]

(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

More mind game over combos? This fighting game that you are talking about must be the greatest fighter ever made. And what do you know about combos anyway, just push your up B. And oh yea, Bowser is soooooooooooooooooo exciting to watch in a competitive sense. Win a major tournament for your fans, just once, PLEASE.

Hell, how did this "gimp" bs started in the first place? gimp = K = constant loser?

players please, it's B.O.W.S.E.R. not Gaybar.

Regarding to camping....selective items tourney anybody? Until a year later, when Gimpy finally find a way for him to enjoy the game again, and pulled a bag over his head...of course.

 

[Shai Hulud]

BlackWhite:
It's April 1 dumb@ss.

 

[LouisLeGros]

I'd take heavy B rawl over items anyday, but for competitive play it is really looking like it would be best to go back to M elee, but I'm not sure if that is even possible. Can we pull of CS over CS:S?

At the looks of things I see little chance of myself playing regular brawl in any competitive fashion. Even in friendly FFA I see it devolving into camping. Being able to out camp another player is not how I want to play a game competitively, no matter how much "skill" camping takes.

anecdotes don't account for much, but just another observation that plays into what Gimpy said.

 

[LavisFiend]

I think the big question now is what are some of the big names that are sticking with B.rawl, and what are some of the big names sticking with M.elee?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

^I think a lot of the pros are smart enough to not commit to either game yet, I assume they'll just play both games (with a focus on one game, for a lot of them, I'd think) and see how everything works out.

 

[raphtmarqui]

That word filter was pissing me off for a second there
Nice joke

 

[Repryx]

Azen Likes Brawl M2k Likes Melee Personally I like Brawl as a casual friendly game and melee as a competitive.....brawl is uncompetitive and I will further elaborate on why later

 

[Doomblaze]

COMPLETELY EDITED:

Yea cookiez, i just realized that, thanks anyways ^_^

Sakuraitachi really messed up brawls competitive scene by killing online play, making the game twice as slow and hurting 1000's by doing so.

I personally agree with you Gimpy, but I hope you're wrong...

 

[Cookiez]

They're not doing it deliberately, Its the April Fools word filter Doomblaze.

 

[Tofu Beast]

EDITED:

I personally agree with you Gimpy, but I hope that you're wrong..., i want melee to have a competitive scene =(

Pity that melee isnt brawl 2.0 honestly, i wonder what sakurai-san was thinking when he killed melees online play, made the game half as fast and screwed over combos X_x

Oh well, only time will tell

yea, i realized that 10 seconds later, lawl

What?!


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