Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[Jack Kieser]

Well, Mookie... I guess I'm just going to stop asking for your opinion if you're going to continue to belittle me because of mine. I didn't ever say that combos weren't important at all... I said there's other things to do other than go for the combo every single time you land a hit (at least in Brawl) and that this critical difference between Brawl and Melee is giving us as a community to do something different, just like we did with Free-form combos in Melee. Oh, and by the way, a combo is a combo, regardless of the name. Free-form or not, its a string of hits that the opponent has no control of. You making a mistake is your own fault and can't be factored into the equation because, as you have repeatedly told me, when dealing with hypotheticals, we have to assume that both players are skilled enough to where they WON'T make a menial mistake like that.

As for DI, I know (from experience, because you're so insistent on using yours as a basis for argument, as well) that Melee's DI just wasn't powerful enough to let someone at lower %'s DI out of a combo. You HAD to rely on your opponent screwing up. That says something important about the power of a good combo. And mindgames are VERY important. But, they are secondary. You said it yourself. Tech skill is the basis. Mindgames separate the good from the great. This leads to the logical inference that mindgames, in and of themselves, get you nowhere, but tech skill, in and of itself, gets you into the competitive realm; maybe not to the top, but it gets you farther on its own that mindgames get you on their own.

 

[LoVer]

It's not just combos, it's the fact that offensive capabilities across the board have been severely nerfed. Resulting in defensive play having a significant advantage over offensive ones.

The game's pace is slower and more calculated for sure, and there are now some great defensive moves, but it is hardly the case that offensive play is out or obsolete in the face of a purely defensive/camping style play.

 

[DTKPch]

I said there's other things to do other than go for the combo every single time you land a hit (at least in Brawl) and that this critical difference between Brawl and Melee is giving us as a community to do something different, just like we did with Free-form combos in Melee.

Could you please give us something to do that is better than a combo?

Let's see, what can you do after you land the first hit... ummm...
1.) Make a failed attempt at stringing it into another hit because the opponent recovered too quickly.
or
2.) Retreat, go back to square one, and try to find another opening to get a single hit in.

 

[MookieRah]

Mookie... I guess I'm just going to stop asking for your opinion if you're going to continue to belittle me because of mine.

I belittle you because your opinion is fundamentally wrong.

Also, this doesn't argue any of my points.

I didn't ever say that combos weren't important at all...

No, but I also didn't say that you said they weren't. In fact, I was saying that you downplayed mindgames more than anything else, and that your fundamental lack of understanding them makes you not able to debate this.

Again, this doesn't really argue any of my points.

I said there's other things to do other than go for the combo every single time you land a hit

Every single game has things you do before combos. The thing is, in Brawl, you are lucky to get a combo exceding 3 hits on someone who knows what he is doing. This has everything to do with the defensive mechanics being too good that it's detrimental to competitive play.

Oh, and by the way, a combo is a combo, regardless of the name. Free-form or not, its a string of hits that the opponent has no control of.

No, you are wrong. Also, you are arguing semantics. If you were to use that definition then most of the "combos" in melee aren't combos, as nearly all of them could have been avoided and/or influenced by the opponent to not working, and very very few are guaranteed.

In the end, you knew what I was talking about and so does everyone here. Great strawman argument there.

You making a mistake is your own fault and can't be factored into the equation because, as you have repeatedly told me, when dealing with hypotheticals, we have to assume that both players are skilled enough to where they WON'T make a menial mistake like that.

1. People make mistakes that are punished against an opponent of roughly equal skill.

2. The whole statement on the hypotheticals is crap, as most of those arguments were referring to items, and tier lists. Neither of which are present in this debate. This should be common sense. This isn't items, this isn't tiers, this is a debate over the course of the metagame and how skill itself is represented in the game.

that Melee's DI just wasn't powerful enough to let someone at lower %'s DI out of a combo.

*Sigh* It doesn't necessarily break you out of a combo at low percent, but it affects what your opponent can do to you. If you use DI appropriately you can avoid A LOT OF HITS as well as a good chunk of setups into aerial kill moves. Your opponent can also your DI to his benefit as well, and if he can present you with a situation in which tricks you into DIing a certain way it could end up being a longer combo or even a KO. This is a very skillful exchange going on if the players are good enough to manipulate the game mechanics to their advantage.

Also, if you get caught in a set up then you made a mistake. If you make a mistake you should be punished and put in a negative situation, such as a combo, and if you continuously make mistakes while in the combo then you should take more damage.

That says something important about the power of a good combo. And mindgames are VERY important. But, they are secondary.

At no point did I say this. In fact I stated otherwise check out some quotes:

The core to every fighting game, real fighting, and most competitive anything is mindgames. The ability to play smart and fool/overwhelm/predict your opponents moves and abuse them.

Then I followed up that tech skill has a "competitive norm." By this I mean that tons of people are able to do technically advanced stuff, and that for the most part everyone good has a substantial amount of tech skill. In fact, Shai Hulud is someone I played with all the time and he was way way WAY more technical than I am; however, I would still beat him in matches because I played smarter. My statement was saying that techskill is merely a tool that is used in the process of mindgaming and is therefore secondary to it.

Improve your reading comprehension please. Either that, or stop purposefully misinterpretting what I'm saying as a method to present straw man arguments. Basically everything you said in your last post was a misinterpretation of my entire post and could be seen as a way to completely discredit me while not actually debating any of my points.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Could you please give us something to do that is better than a combo?

Let's see, what can you do after you land the first hit... ummm...
1.) Make a failed attempt at stringing it into another hit because the opponent recovered too quickly.
or
2.) Retreat, go back to square one, and try to find another opening to get a single hit in.

Yes... Yes, those two work. I said there were other things to do, and you provided two very viable options for me. See, Brawl, as I said originally, can allow us to shift the paradigm and allow us to see the benefit of single hits that aren't kill moves. Brawl gives you more time to think, so why not use it? Sometimes, I can see the benefit to getting some breathing room and giving yourself more time to think; after all, if you aren't confident that you can continue a combo (which happens all the time in Brawl), why not capitalize on that fact and just get the opponent the hell away from you instead of attempting to continue the combo, whiffing, and getting punished for it?

EDIT: Unfortunately, I have a 30 minute drive to make before I can post again, so I'll have to return later, but I'll go ahead and say this before I go. Mookie, I don't get why you have such a problem with just admitting that we'll never fully agree instead of making baseless assumptions about me (thus circumventing having to fully disprove my arguments). I don't purposefully misinterpret anything. I interpret what I read based off of my previous knowledge and experience. What I don't think you understand is that we, by the virtue of being different people, have different experiences and thus will interpret the same thing in different ways. That's why, for instance, our DI views differ. They'll always differ because our experiences tell us different things, and no amount of arguing or telling me that I'm arguing incorrectly will change that. So, have fun belittling me all the time, because I refuse to belittle you just because you happen to disagree with me.

 

[Johnknight1]

Except for every good player that is close enough to take immediate advantage over your trip, in which your "mindgame" only makes you vulnerable for even longer. That's like saying not teching and laying on the ground for a bit in a match is an unbeatable "mind game."

No, it's just most players assume you are completely vulnerable, and even if you do get up, it's really slow, and it's hardly any longer then if you were hit down and didn't tech. Which is a way to punish them. The point is to get up and counter at the right time. I don't think it's techable, but the fact that hardly any one thinks of anything outside of all out offense when you're in the tripped position is hilarious. I'm just merely stating most people can't handle a random factor. They can't think, outside of the stupidest move possible. They could just spam me, and cancel my position, but nobody even does that. Which shows just how stupid many players are, and unable to adapt to the random factor.

I've yet to be on the bad side of things when I'm in the "trippied" position when I've done this. I'm just merely stating I find it intresting that people can't handle thinking for a quick second about something other then pure brute force offense as a way to counter. Even in a seemingly defensive-based game.

 

[MookieRah]

I've yet to be on the bad side of things when I'm in the "trippied" position when I've done this.

Then you are either lucky, or the people you play have poor reflexes.

I'm just merely stating I find it intresting that people can't handle thinking for a quick second about something other then pure brute force offense as a way to counter.

Tell me how to handle a situation in which I'm by my opponent and trip in front of him? How do I avoid the easy fsmash that is on it's way?

REGARDLESS of what you do after you trip to prevent from getting screwed over, it's something that happens COMPLETELY outside of your control and puts you into an unfair disadvantage temporarily. If you could purposely trip, then your thoughts on it would have merit.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Mookierah I'm sorry but your a huge noob.

Have you even CONSIDERED doing a Barrel roll?

 

[RDK]

No, it's just most players assume you are completely vulnerable, and even if you do get up, it's really slow, and it's hardly any longer then if you were hit down and didn't tech. Which is a way to punish them. The point is to get up and counter at the right time. I don't think it's techable, but the fact that hardly any one thinks of anything outside of all out offense when you're in the tripped position is hilarious. I'm just merely stating most people can't handle a random factor. They can't think, outside of the stupidest move possible. They could just spam me, and cancel my position, but nobody even does that. Which shows just how stupid many players are, and unable to adapt to the random factor.

But the point is, there shouldn't even be a random factor. The fact that tripping exists is a problem in itself. It slows down play and sometimes even rewards stupidity. A player might not be playing like he should be, I.E. camping, and the player actually working for the win might trip mid-combo, and gets punished for it.

All this is beside the fact that tripping happens at the worst ****ing times imaginable.

 

[MookieRah]

Have you even CONSIDERED doing a Barrel roll?

Holy ****. That solves everything XD.

I like tripping as a mechanic in terms of using dtilts. It's pretty nifty, although I don't think it should be random as it should occur after getting a certain amount of tilts connecting within a timeframe to force a trip. It's pretty much similar to how in some traditional fighters getting your opponents dizzy is somewhat random, although one trip like that usually isn't as harsh as getting dizzied.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Sometimes tripping WILL get you killed. If it never does, that doesn't mean you have awesome reflex--it means that your opponents suck.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cd0hj2pCTog

1:44, tripping costs DK a stock. I realize the match was a bit one-sided (not much DK can do against D3's infinites), but seriously... getting a stock stolen from you just plain sucks. There was NOTHING DK could have done in this situation-- D3's utilt has a big hitbox over him, it would have connected no matter which way DK rolled.

 

[SynikaL]

Not to mention that Tripping leaves you in a vulnerable Wake (or, pressure) situation your opponent didn't earn.


-Kimosabae

 

[LouisLeGros]

I just went a caught up on the last couple days of discussion

*insert facepalm.jpg*

Okay, it is fine and dandy that you want to get in on Smash Bros competitive play. You may have entered the melee scene late and thus sucked and had no chance against the people who had been playing for years. Brawl may be a chance for you to get into a competitive scene.

However, it is really obvious when you start talking about Melee and you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about. If you really want to contribute to the discussion with a comparison of the games, at least go out and learn about competitive melee play.

Personally I'd be the first one to admit that I don't have a full understanding of melee competitive play. If somehow wavedashing and its effect on gameplay was brought up I wouldn't have anything to contribute. I'm not just going to try to BS my way into the discussion by siding with "pros" or the "scrubs" that call it a glitch.

So please, when attempting to support Brawl and trying to reason with us and telling us why you think it won't have backwards progression don't go into comparisons of high level melee AT, comboing, etc. Stick to factors in Brawl, where despite how good Gimpy was at melee, where we are all pretty much at a similar level of understanding.


Also, quantifying mind games earns an instant facepalm, don't do it... same goes for experience with friends, anecdotes are fine but alone they really don't mean much.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

(this is sort of a sub topic spawned off of the other topic of mine)

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

Yeah we know Brawl is not going anywhere. Brawl supporters are kind of like Jews, they will keep waiting for their savior, which already came, which was melee(jesus). Once again Combo's are impossible in Brawl, Brawl is noob friendly game. Sure, its a fun game, but what keeps the game alive and its competitive seen is its deepness, and brawl is as deep as one of those Naruto games you get.

 

[Samochan]

Sometimes tripping WILL get you killed. If it never does, that doesn't mean you have awesome reflex--it means that your opponents suck.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cd0hj2pCTog

1:44, tripping costs DK a stock. I realize the match was a bit one-sided (not much DK can do against D3's infinites), but seriously... getting a stock stolen from you just plain sucks. There was NOTHING DK could have done in this situation-- D3's utilt has a big hitbox over him, it would have connected no matter which way DK rolled.

I'd be a bit more concerned about that DDD infinite and how one-sided that game was than the tripping that occurred. <_> And not entirely cause DDD is a hard matchup for DK, more like DK got pwned when away and DK got even more pwned when he got close due to brawl's "awesome" new shield mechanics. What can DK do to shield anyway now, other than get grabbed or otherwise owned from shield. >_> Also when he tried to actually grab... boy that dude prolly misses his jc grabs a lot now that you can only dash grab with loads of windown lag...

 

[RDK]

This is what Brawl's cover should have been, to at least give us a little warning before buying it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, I 'lol'ed pretty **** hard at that. ---^

 

[Cookiez]

LOL Love that pic. Also <3 CaramellDansen xD.

 

[LeeHarris]

Question: If you don't like Brawl, why are you still hanging around here? Melee is dead, but if you want to discuss it go to the Melee forums. None of us who think Brawl is competitive care in the least bit that you don't think Brawl is competitive. The new competitive scene will emerge and you'll all leave.

Adios!

 

[Corigames]

Question: If you don't like Brawl, why are you still hanging around here? Melee is dead

There is your answer.

I say that when the melee tourny players find all the cool crap in the game when everyone else was "having fun," YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO USE THEM!

 

[MookieRah]

Question: If you don't like Brawl, why are you still hanging around here?

I don't dislike Brawl, as I enjoy playing it; however, when that ceases to be then I'll leave. Till then, that doesn't make the things I've said any less valid, and that doesn't mean that I shouldn't fight for making Melee the competitive norm even if it isn't likely for that to happen.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Dear god, people, MELEE ISN'T DEAD! Christ, I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for people to think that other than Brawl is the hew hotness.

 

[MookieRah]

Dear god, people, MELEE ISN'T DEAD! Christ, I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for people to think that other than Brawl is the hew hotness.

Jack and I finally agree on something. *High five*

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Question: If you don't like Brawl, why are you still hanging around here? Melee is dead, but if you want to discuss it go to the Melee forums. None of us who think Brawl is competitive care in the least bit that you don't think Brawl is competitive. The new competitive scene will emerge and you'll all leave.

Adios!

Lol you know the worst part is that melee wont ever die. Just because brawl is new doesnt mean it will totally overtake it, worst of all is that Brawl will destroy itself. Plus i will keep playing melee with my friends who agree that melee is better and talking to skilled players who will stay on this site.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack and I finally agree on something. *High five*

Sir, I will gladly join in that high five. *virtual high fives* ^_^

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah we know Brawl is not going anywhere. Brawl supporters are kind of like Jews, they will keep waiting for their savior, which already came, which was melee(jesus). Once again Combo's are impossible in Brawl, Brawl is noob friendly game. Sure, its a fun game, but what keeps the game alive and its competitive seen is its deepness, and brawl is as deep as one of those Naruto games you get.

You just dissed the people of a major religion because they choose to believe jesus as a prophet rather than the messiah.

PHEGA MAIL!

Combos are not impossible in brawl. It reminds me a bit of like Tekken where you have a set of 10 hit chain combos. Granted its a bit disheartening that you cannot chain 5-6 hit combos and only 2-3 set ones, but when has brawl ever been stated to be like melee? Or rather since when has the smash bros series ever attempted to be like typical fighting games?

Granted I understand the disappointment but I do believe that rather than bemoan what Brawl should or should not be we should play the game and see how it plays out.
*shrugs*

 

[aho43]

theres no cool crap in this game to be discovered. its been fully dissected. the only cool crap is turning around from dash into jump. there will be no insane movement discoveries. the community this time around is much more prepared for finding those sort of things than they were when melee first came out.

just read this, jumping from dash gives you no extra horizontal momentum. you can get max distance on your jump from walking. fab idea...

 

[LeeHarris]

Haha, this is why I usually stay out of general discussion.

To paraphrase M3D:

Most competitive players and TOs like Brawl. They will leave Melee behind and there will be no one to replace them. Since the group was already small to begin with, good luck getting together any decent sized tournament. MLG, Evo, and more have moved or will move to Brawl.

And to paraphrase Overswarm:

Halo 1 is dead; it was killed by Halo 2. It is still more active than Melee is at the moment. Therefore, Melee is dead.

I don't know exactly what you're fighting for. Everyone who hates Brawl is already convinced that they will stick with Melee and everyone who loves Brawl is convinced that they will move to Brawl. The countless number of garbage threads complaining about Brawl is doing nothing but causing fights.

 

[Testament27]

while gimpy does make some astute observations, i think we are forgetting that brawl is a different type of fighting game, and that it is not strange that its competitive life may differ from games of the past or different games altogether. i think brawl is more chess like than melee, meaning many people may not be concerned with defensive tactics at the moment. we are trying to make a more balanced game an offensive one, with disregard for the defensive and offensive harmony brawl should evolve into.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic can use his spincharge to increase his horizontal jump distance and he can use his spindash cancel as well for recovery. All of which make him move along much faster in the air than he would be going from dash to jump. +1 for me j/k

As I said let's just give the game a year and see how things turn out. Granted I dislike the majority of the changes that have occurred but I am content to wait patiently and see what occurs.
After allthe worst that happens is that both brawl and melee coexist with each other.

Haha, this is why I usually stay out of general discussion.

To paraphrase M3D:

Most competitive players and TOs like Brawl. They will leave Melee behind and there will be no one to replace them. Since the group was already small to begin with, good luck getting together any decent sized tournament. MLG, Evo, and more have moved or will move to Brawl.

And to paraphrase Overswarm:

Halo 1 is dead; it was killed by Halo 2. It is still more active than Melee is at the moment. Therefore, Melee is dead.

I don't know exactly what you're fighting for. Everyone who hates Brawl is already convinced that they will stick with Melee and everyone who loves Brawl is convinced that they will move to Brawl. The countless number of garbage threads complaining about Brawl is doing nothing but causing fights.

Why? Too intelligent for you?
best diss ever.
I win.
let me add a bit more logic though.

Brawl=/=melee
Different game.
Different play style.
Different characters.
Different approach.

halo1=Halo2=Halo3 So of course one will die.
Same weapons.
Same characters.
Same gameplay mechanic.
Same freaking thing.

As a result Brawl will probably exist along with melee unless a 4th smash bros game came out that was very similar to melee. Then melee would die out.

 

[LeeHarris]

Haha, obviously you never played competitive Halo 1 or 2. They were very different, just like Melee and Brawl.

If you guys want to keep holding onto Melee, no one has any problem with that. Just stop spamming everywhere about how much you don't like it. We get it. Join the club.

 

[Wiseguy]

I don't know exactly what you're fighting for. Everyone who hates Brawl is already convinced that they will stick with Melee and everyone who loves Brawl is convinced that they will move to Brawl. The countless number of garbage threads complaining about Brawl is doing nothing but causing fights.

I whole heartedly agree. I have nothing but respect for Gimpy, but I don't understand why we needed ANOTHER thread debating this tired argument.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Haha, this is why I usually stay out of general discussion.

To paraphrase M3D:

Most competitive players and TOs like Brawl. They will leave Melee behind and there will be no one to replace them. Since the group was already small to begin with, good luck getting together any decent sized tournament. MLG, Evo, and more have moved or will move to Brawl.

And to paraphrase Overswarm:

Halo 1 is dead; it was killed by Halo 2. It is still more active than Melee is at the moment. Therefore, Melee is dead.

I don't know exactly what you're fighting for. Everyone who hates Brawl is already convinced that they will stick with Melee and everyone who loves Brawl is convinced that they will move to Brawl. The countless number of garbage threads complaining about Brawl is doing nothing but causing fights.

We will keep fighting for melee, so get used to it.

 

[LoVer]

Haha, this is why I usually stay out of general discussion.

To paraphrase M3D:

Most competitive players and TOs like Brawl. They will leave Melee behind and there will be no one to replace them. Since the group was already small to begin with, good luck getting together any decent sized tournament. MLG, Evo, and more have moved or will move to Brawl.

And to paraphrase Overswarm:

Halo 1 is dead; it was killed by Halo 2. It is still more active than Melee is at the moment. Therefore, Melee is dead.

I don't know exactly what you're fighting for. Everyone who hates Brawl is already convinced that they will stick with Melee and everyone who loves Brawl is convinced that they will move to Brawl. The countless number of garbage threads complaining about Brawl is doing nothing but causing fights.

This is all very true.

 

[LeeHarris]

Fighting for Melee? Who are you fighting against? What are you fighting for? You want it to stay active and competitive? Fine! Host tournaments and play with people who are willing to come. In the mean time, the people who like Brawl will form the Brawl competitive scene. If Melee lives on, neato mosquito. More power to you guys for keeping it together. I, and everyone else who likes Brawl, don't really care though and are sick of seeing constant garbage coming from people who don't like it. If you don't like it, DON'T PLAY IT! How much more simple can I put it?

Does this work for you:
UGH UGH BRAWL NO PLAYEY RARGH UGH MAKE MELEE TOURNAMENT OOGH FIRE PRETTY

What do you want? Do you want a hug? Do you want everyone to come back to Melee? Like I said, people who like Brawl will stick with Brawl and vice versa. All you're doing is annoying most of the people on the Brawl boards.

 

[controlfreak7]

Sometimes tripping WILL get you killed. If it never does, that doesn't mean you have awesome reflex--it means that your opponents suck.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cd0hj2pCTog

1:44, tripping costs DK a stock. I realize the match was a bit one-sided (not much DK can do against D3's infinites), but seriously... getting a stock stolen from you just plain sucks. There was NOTHING DK could have done in this situation-- D3's utilt has a big hitbox over him, it would have connected no matter which way DK rolled.

I think its really freaking stupid that tripping is a part of the discussion it is the smallest of brawl's problems.

Mookie Rah's example of tripping in front of an opponent that is defensive I don't think is very likely. Because your opponent would have to already be assuming you are going to end up in front of him so if you trip in front of him and he f-smashes he would have to be extremely lucky..

Yeah we know Brawl is not going anywhere. Brawl supporters are kind of like Jews, they will keep waiting for their savior, which already came, which was melee(jesus). Once again Combo's are impossible in Brawl, Brawl is noob friendly game. Sure, its a fun game, but what keeps the game alive and its competitive seen is its deepness, and brawl is as deep as one of those Naruto games you get.

This is the greatest analogy I have ever heard in my life. If I had been told this in real life I would roflmao...

This is what Brawl's cover should have been, to at least give us a little warning before buying it.

Agreed lmao...

Question: If you don't like Brawl, why are you still hanging around here? Melee is dead, but if you want to discuss it go to the Melee forums. None of us who think Brawl is competitive care in the least bit that you don't think Brawl is competitive. The new competitive scene will emerge and you'll all leave.

Adios!

I think one of the main purposes of this thread was to spread awareness of brawl's problems, basically this is to hopefully prevent people from wasting any more of their time with the game in terms of competitve play.

I really think there's options in the game that can make it more competitive, such as fast brawl and heavy brawl, but people say the problems of these lie within making the community grow. The community can't grow if we make this competitive standard, but I really don't think that this problem should ruin a possiblity that effects the current community.

I don't dislike Brawl, as I enjoy playing it; however, when that ceases to be then I'll leave. Till then, that doesn't make the things I've said any less valid, and that doesn't mean that I shouldn't fight for making Melee the competitive norm even if it isn't likely for that to happen.

1. that doesn't seem to be the point of this thread
2. that doesn't exactly explain why you are still here because you enjoy playing it, but know that it isn't going to be competitive so you want melee to come back..

But I understand why you are here and that is to simply show why brawl is ridiculous and can't be played competitively (in a satisfying way that is). If camping is as efficient as it seems to be and remains that way this game will not satisfy anyone on the competitive level.

But i believe that the solutions have been put in front of us and no one is accepting them.

 

[LoVer]

We will keep fighting for melee, so get used to it.

For the moment people will debate with you, because Brawl is new. Soon though, as people tire of the debate, these threads won't last very long before dropping off the front page.

At that point, people can continue to troll, and there is no doubt that they will, but that won't stop the vast majority of people from playing Brawl over Melee. And they will. Just look at the boards - even the Melee forums are dead. Brawl is the present and the future. I've PC gamed since the floppy disk and I can tell you this: In the gaming world, there is no going back. There never has been.

 

[Pink Reaper]

For the moment people will debate with you, because Brawl is new. Soon though, as people tire of the debate, these threads won't last very long before dropping off the front page.

At that point, people can continue to troll, and there is no doubt that they will, but that won't stop the vast majority of people from playing Brawl over Melee. And they will. Just look at the boards - even the Melee forums are dead. Brawl is the present and the future. I've PC gamed since the floppy disk and I can tell you this: In the gaming world, there is no going back. There never has been.

Ok, I pointed this out in a different thread, but I guess I have to do it again. The fact that millions of people are moving to Brawl means nothing to the competitive smash community as the competitive smash community acts independently of the general smash community. So it doesn't matter if the casual smash community likes Brawl more, it doesn't mean anything to the competitive community, who as of right now is still debating on Melee or Brawl(although its sort of looking like its gonna be Melee) As for what happens on these boards, im sure that the Brawl boards will die down if only because after about 3 or 4 months most of the people who joined just for Brawl info will stop caring about the game and move on to something else(probably mario kart wii, that game looks awesome)

As for "There's no going back" I take it you forgot about SF II and Tekken 3. And the Melee forums might be pretty slow, but there are still huge amounts of people talking about Melee. They're just doing it on the Brawl boards

 

[Samochan]

To LeeHarris:

You seem to really want Melee dead when you come here to claim such thing. But for your information, Melee is far from dead. As long as people have tournaments, it will not die. And btw, even while lots of players enjoy brawl now, lots of competitive players, aka those that held melee tournaments are liking melee more than brawl.

Also, here's an example why good games will never die: Metroid Prime 1, the fine masterpiece as it is, is still being played even while MP2 and MP3 have basically the same concept. But MP1 was the one that did it the best, thus it was praised and has the most speed runs and tricks both games combined, latest being from the end of 2007. I still do not see a speed run done from MP3, but it wasn't cause the community didn't try... it was because the game creators decided it was good to make a linear game and try a different approach to make a more un-Metroidish game. Needless to say, it was fun for a while, but didn't match the glory that was Metroid Prime 1.

I'd also like to point out that Super Metroid still enjoys wide popularity among the metroid fans, more so than the new Metroid games like MZM and is still being speed run. All this speed running and sequence breaking can be compared to the competitive aspects of melee, or any other game.

 

[S0crat3s]

I definetely don't agree with this.

Yes, Brawl has a lot of defensive options, and the emphasis is POURED on defensive camping, moreso in Melee. But it definetely doesn't have more defensive options--just a few overly-abused ones that work really well (Pit's arrows, anyone?).

And once again, cries of "Give the game more time" are useless and, to an extent, naive. Ask any Melee veteran who's played Smash for any good amount of time. Brawl's a technical dead end. We've had our top players on it since release--there's simply nothing there worth doing.

It's like trying to dig a well where there's no floor.

WRONG. We've had our top Melee players on it, which are now obsolete...

Melee pros=/=Brawl pros, it's like saying that a Basketball pro would be able to perfect the game of Golf...