Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

[SunriseW12]

Standard from now on should be "reflect brawl"

 

[DraginHikari]

I don't care about making Brawl better. I don't like the game. If I can make people sad about the game, that's awesome, because then maybe there will still be Melee tournaments. Otherwise I'm through with Smash.

I really hope your joking or something... because that's one of the worse kind of attitudes I've seen lately... It's awesome huh? That's wrong in more ways then one.

 

[Dabble]

I consider Brawl the cooling phase in competitive gaming. The next one will pick up where Melee left off.

For now, it is pointless to carry on this charade of hoping Brawl will become competitive on a professional level.

It is not going to happen.

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

I really hope your joking or something... because that's one of the worse kind of attitudes I've seen lately... It's awesome huh? That's wrong in more ways then one.

Well tell me, my friend, whats there to LIKE in brawl?

 

[Johnknight1]

Scrub quote of the day month year.

You know, there is no reason to act like a a**. Combos in smash 64 are easy as f***. With Melee, they are generally when you catch your opponent defensively off guard. With Brawl, it seems it is when you trap ("box") your opponent. That is all I am saying. You can continue with your depressed attitude, and quit smash after A FRIGGEN MONTH of the newest smash. Me? I'll be optomistic, and go look for a solution to a lack of offense in Brawl.

I definetely don't agree with this.

Yes, Brawl has a lot of defensive options, and the emphasis is POURED on defensive camping, moreso in Melee. But it definetely doesn't have more defensive options--just a few overly-abused ones that work really well (Pit's arrows, anyone?).

And once again, cries of "Give the game more time" are useless and, to an extent, naive. Ask any Melee veteran who's played Smash for any good amount of time. Brawl's a technical dead end. We've had our top players on it since release--there's simply nothing there worth doing.

It's like trying to dig a well where there's no floor.

The defensive options in Brawl are poping up all over. And they aren't just camping. Most of them are just countering your opponents offense. Maybe not more then Melee at the moment, but the options are poping up all over the place. However, camping is sadly the main strategy.

Are you kidding me? I know of at least 5 techniques found in this past week alone. Among them, the most useful: Pikachu's Quick Attack Cancel. Basically, Pikachu speeds up, and can chain up offensive moves. A anti-defense, in other words. So if you're saying more time isn't doing anything, you've just been proven wrong. We ARE FINDING TECHNIQUES, but they take time. Give it a year. Seriously. We didn't discover moonwalking in Melee until 2006. There are simply things in the game like that that take a while to discover. So you can go give up on smash, Brawl, and be all down and depressed on all this, instead of seeking a solution.

And it's just simply like AlphaZealot has posted and said this whole time...we need to wait it out. Wait for the one technique to arise. Just wait for it. And in the meantime, I think the following I'll post a link to below is worth trying out. The special Brawl known as Heavy Brawl as the Brawl competitve basic match. I definitely suggest you all check into it. Less DI, more fast falling=diffrent game, and combos are easier to pull off, and are generally much better. I definitely gotta try this out. A good second option, if all else fails. And above all, it makes camping a lot less useful!

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158712

 

[Gluttony]

Well tell me, my friend, whats there to LIKE in brawl?

Call me boring but I like the chess like gameplay with a fighter twist. I like the long matches. I like how you got to think before each move and have to continuously outsmart your opponent throughout the entire match because if you don't they can recover from anything. I like how the entire match you got to slowly continue to work at your opponent before setting them up or getting them out of defense to deliver the finishing blow. I like how defensive the game is. Still like Melee just as much but see it's all opinion. I like competitive brawl too. Most don't but it's opposite of melee so it's understandable.

 

[DD151]

Call me boring but I like the chess like gameplay with a fighter twist.

holy crap. brawl and chess are nowhere near similar, nor even comparable. just stop.

 

[Shai Hulud]

You know, there is no reason to act like a a**. Combos in smash 64 are easy as f***. With Melee, they are generally when you catch your opponent defensively off guard. With Brawl, it seems it is when you trap ("box") your opponent. That is all I am saying. You can continue with your depressed attitude, and quit smash after A FRIGGEN MONTH of the newest smash. Me? I'll be optomistic, and go look for a solution to a lack of offense in Brawl.

I get carried away sometimes and forget people on the internet are real people. You're probably a nice person. I'm not, but you wouldn't be able to tell. So I apologize. Kind of. I just found your concept of "mind games" to be amusing because a lot of times scrubs talk about mind games as if they are a distinct factor from skill, combos, or whatever. Tournament players like myself only really use the term "mind games" anymore in a joking fashion because it's so meaningless. "Mind gaming" someone into a combo, strictly speaking, is nonsense. What you probably mean is baiting some kind of opening using push and pull tactics with precise spacing. For instance dash dance camping refers to dash-dancing in and out of range of an opponent to try and bait an attack, after which you punish. Or you might do an aerial attack against an opponent, intentionally landing behind him, so you don't get shield-grabbed. In either case all you're really doing is controlling space to force an opening. This comprises about half of Melee. The other half is punishing people for creating those openings.

So when you talk about "mind games" being the new combos it's just a lot of nonsense. What you're saying is the punishment aspect of the game (the combos) does not matter, and that you can have a deep game with nothing but the push and pull (the "mind games").

Moreover, your options for creating openings in Brawl are much more limited. Dash-dancing and wavedashing are out. Empty SHFFLs are pretty much out since characters fall too slow. Shield baiting is out since the shield drops in something like 3 frames. All you really have left if weaving in and out of range by jumping and pressing left/right. That, and projectile spam.

"Mind games" (that is, the push and pull for the creation of openings) cannot replace the punishment aspect of a game, and to think they can is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how fighting games work. Which is why I called you a scrub.

 

[RDK]

Even if you guys don't believe us, after stating compelling argument after argument, ask any of the more well-known Smashers. Ask Gimpyfish. Ask him his real feelings about Brawl.

Ask HugS, or Nealdt, or even AlphaZealot. As optimistic as AZ is trying to be, you have to remember--that's basically his job. I'll bet if you actually sat down with him, he'd concede that Brawl is no Melee, and will never reach Melee's height of technicality.

So, Johnknight, stop trying to make Brawl into Melee. It's obvious that it's nothing more than a Mario Party.

 

[Gluttony]

holy crap. brawl and chess are nowhere near similar, nor even comparable. just stop.

Holy crap. Yeah, you actually can. Right now the game is very campy in high competitive play. This causes both people to sit for long periods of time in defense. People make some ranged moves or someone gets fed up with defense ending up on the offense. This makes the game rather slow and last long periods of time. The two players chip away at each other until one of the players tries to finish the other off. Each move has to be planned out and there's no combos. This means that the opponent can escape out of each hit or at the most several hits.

Now this makes defense/hit and run the best option. So mind games are the majority of the game now. No one denies this. So in other words you try to get the opponent to drop their defense or make the wrong defensive move so you can hit them. Then you do it again. This goes on through the entire match until someone wins. It's a lot like chess. Sometimes you sacrifice pieces in order to win the game at the end. Sometimes you go to go offense and take a few blows in order to successfully finish your opponent off.

Do you deny that right now defense is prevalent in competitive Brawl? That camping/defense are dominant in tournaments? No? Then the game is similar to chess but with a fighter twist. Instead of pieces you're one character. Instead of moving you can jump, air dodge, attack etc. Both require patience in order to be victorious. Melee is very offense oriented like a traditional fighter. Brawl is based more on turtling, waiting it out, and getting your opponent to lose patience resulting in their loss. People get bored of the competitive brawl matches. I don't. I actually like this style but I also like Melee's fast paced, tech, and combo heavy matches as well.

 

[SiD]

Even if you guys don't believe us, after stating compelling argument after argument, ask any of the more well-known Smashers. Ask Gimpyfish. Ask him his real feelings about Brawl.

Ask HugS, or Nealdt, or even AlphaZealot. As optimistic as AZ is trying to be, you have to remember--that's basically his job. I'll bet if you actually sat down with him, he'd concede that Brawl is no Melee, and will never reach Melee's height of technicality.

So, Johnknight, stop trying to make Brawl into Melee. It's obvious that it's nothing more than a Mario Party.

RDK, while it's true Melee was much deeper, don't compare Brawl to Mario Party. Like 4 days ago, you thought Brawl was pretty good. Alcohol is a depressant you know.

 

[NES n00b]

RDK, while it's true Melee was much deeper, don't compare Brawl to Mario Party. Like 4 days ago, you thought Brawl was pretty good. Alcohol is a depressant you know.

He is probably just johnning, but we all must admit that Melee takes much more skill.

 

[PK-ow!]

I almost agree with you there (the bit about giving more weight to a more experienced player's opinions than that of a less experienced player), but Gimpy isn't the only pro smasher out there. Earlier in the thread I quoted AlphaZealot, whom I believe I'm fairly safe to assume is also experienced enough. Basically, he says we should probably wait it out, it's too soon to tell. I'm not saying that Gimpy's opinions aren't valid.. I suppose you can't have invalid opinions.. but AZ backs his views up a little better.

And plus I'm biased, because I want this to be a competitive game. But I'll pretend I didn't say that.

Yup, opinions can't be valid or invalid. Those terms merely qualify a deduction on a binary scale. And for that matter, opinions aren't inferences of any kind, but instead claims which aren't verifiable (because they do not state something which even in principle can be decided unambiguously by verification).
Good thing we're not talking about opinions - we're talking about beliefs, since presumably, there is a fact of the matter as to where the game will 'progress' in time. What we're doing is separating the good beliefs from the bad. Ideally, that would be the true ones and the rest; but generally we have to settle for 'good reason to believe' or 'inductively strong basis for'.

Now, to be honest, I actually didn't notice the OP was GimpyFish. But it wouldn't have mattered - grant him infinite expertise in Melee, and whatever expertise he may even have in Brawl by now, his claim is of a sort that is transcendent of both. He is making a statement about the course of the game - a meta-statement, if you will; something which expertise at winning instances of Melee or Brawl games would not inform in any necessary way.

 

[ToastMAN]

I think the problem is that we were to anxious to get our hands on brawl, that we put too much hope in the game to become immediately successful competitively...most people pick the character they were going to main before they even played the game! Its not wrong to get your hopes up...but when an NFL team drafts a quaterback number 1 overall they dont expected that quaterback to lead to a championship run...same could be said for brawl...give it time and if brawl becomes a bust it simply becomes a bust...but if you dont feel like waiting for brawl to get better (competively that is) than play melee to get your fix (competitive fix)...

word?...bomb

 

[RDK]

RDK, while it's true Melee was much deeper, don't compare Brawl to Mario Party. Like 4 days ago, you thought Brawl was pretty good. Alcohol is a depressant you know.

He is probably just johnning, but we all must admit that Melee takes much more skill.

I'm game for giving Brawl a try. I'm just trying to keep a realistic attitude amongst the overwhelming majority of people in the Brawl Boards saying that Brawl is just as technical as Melee (I'm looking at you, Johnknight).

 

[DD151]

Holy crap. Yeah, you actually can. Right now the game is very campy in high competitive play. This causes both people to sit for long periods of time in defense. People make some ranged moves or someone gets fed up with defense ending up on the offense. This makes the game rather slow and last long periods of time. The two players chip away at each other until one of the players tries to finish the other off. Each move has to be planned out and there's no combos. This means that the opponent can escape out of each hit or at the most several hits.

...

it seems like i wasn't remembering shai hulud's post correctly when i made that statement, but it still holds true nonetheless.

chess isn't simply chipping away at your opponent's pieces until you win the game. each move in chess has to be made in mind of what moves you will make on later turns and what moves your opponent will make. brawl isn't like that. if you make a wrong move in chess and your opponent successfully capitalizes, it's likely that you're royally screwed. make a wrong move in brawl? take 14% damage and you're back to square one, unless you're above 120%, in which case you might die. or heck, with how difficult a lot of things are to punish, you might not even take damage at all.

chess has depth. brawl does not. that's why you can't compare them.

i don't like brawl's slow matches. what's your point? expressions of preference mean nothing.

 

[Deleted member]

The thing about being pessimistic/realistic is that you win whether you're right or wrong. Having low expectations has always been my attitude [but I'm only human so sometimes I get excited] so when things go wrong it doesn't feel as bad as it could.

 

[Johnknight1]

He is probably just johnning, but we all must admit that Melee takes much more skill.

RDK is Johnning. Te-he-he-he-he-he-he. Sorry, had to do that! Part of me might have just died. That was one of the funniest things I've seen on these boards in a while!

Ya, at this point in time, I gotta say Heavy Brawl looks like the biggest solution. Haven't actually tried it, though. Seems like it would work, though. If people were open-minded. Something needs to change, and it doesn't look like we're getting a new smash game anytime soon (though let us pray we don't have to wait much longer then 4 years; I don't think Brawl can last as the main competitve smash game as long as Melee).

And RDK, I never said Brawl is as technical as Melee. I have no "set" opinion on the issue. Its apples and oranges to me, as of now, in all actual honesty.

 

[KernelColonel]

THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY COMBOES IN THIS GAME.

Marth and Metaknight have the most broken Fair approach in the game and can chase off the edge. Marth has the footstool spike and everything.

I think you're (OP) just spending time with the fat *** characters. If you worked your game on indecipherable comboes and on your chase game then you wouldn't come to the conclusion that Brawl has a backwards progression.

To conclude, if you play people and you're both getting better, then n00b comboes won't work anyways (I only say n00b because none of us are that darned great at the game yet).

 

[Shai Hulud]

Ummm doesn't Gimpy main MK?

 

[Dabble]

Gimpy mains bowser.

 

[Gluttony]

it seems like i wasn't remembering shai hulud's post correctly when i made that statement, but it still holds true nonetheless.

chess isn't simply chipping away at your opponent's pieces until you win the game. each move in chess has to be made in mind of what moves you will make on later turns and what moves your opponent will make. brawl isn't like that. if you make a wrong move in chess and your opponent successfully capitalizes, it's likely that you're royally screwed. make a wrong move in brawl? take 14% damage and you're back to square one, unless you're above 120%, in which case you might die. or heck, with how difficult a lot of things are to punish, you might not even take damage at all.

chess has depth. brawl does not. that's why you can't compare them.

i don't like brawl's slow matches. what's your point? expressions of preference mean nothing.

My point is that it takes a completely different person to enjoy the defense heavy Brawl than someone who enjoys melee. My point is that this is exactly why they should hold tournaments for both games. If MLG stops hosting melee tournaments for brawl, well, I think they'll be shooting smash brothers in the foot as a whole. My point is that in chess you're allowed a lot of time to think. Sort of like how floaty brawl is. I'm not saying that it is as indepth as Brawl or that Brawl is 100% similar.

I get at what you're saying but what I was trying to say is that it has more in common with chess than it does with Melee. Sure in chess the opponent can capitalize on a mistake but only in some rare situations (if the opponent is bad) does the match end in a few moves. Normally each side has to sacrifice many pieces to achieve victory. This is if both opponents are around similar skill. I feel that this is similar to Brawl's defensiveness. You can take hits as well as your opponent's many times before the match is over. Whereas in melee just a few slight errors can cost the entire match. Just like traditional fighters before it.

Melee requires higher reflexes, thinking on your toes, and to adapt quickly in a match or you lose. You need much more technical skill to win in a Melee game. This is what people mean by it being more competitive than Brawl and I agree. However, there's also people that enjoy how slow Brawl is, the thinking that's required, and how long the matches are but these are completely different players than the Melee players. Sure some Melee players enjoy Brawl matches and vice versa. I think I'm voicing my opinion very badly but I'm trying to point out that Brawl is very different from melee in terms of how the game is played. The strategy to win is the complete opposite.

I think if tournaments are held for both games people that do brawl tournaments will show up at Melee tournaments and Melee tournament players will show up at Brawl tournaments. This might even bring new people to try out Melee and vice versa. I believe all the hate discussion regarding Brawl is that the Melee players got a different game than they were expecting. The Melee 2.0 doesn't apply. That's not what the Melee players want. They wanted a traditional fighter that capitalizes on fast paced combat with a steep learning curve that takes hours of practice. They wanted a game with multiple options that allowed them to punish bad players/mistakes with lethal combos. Instead of the "multiple tries" that brawl lets people get away with. This is what Smash Brothers has been until Brawl showed up and now they're worried if people like Brawl they'll never get a new game that's similar to that in the smash brothers and they're worried tournaments for Melee will stop.

This is why it's my opinion that tournaments should be held for BOTH. I feel for the Melee crowd because they were there for every single update. They stuck with the game for seven years. Now the third in the lineup is so far from it's predecessors that they feel betrayed. Now, I'm not getting into that but I completely understand how they feel. However, I don't think Brawl is a bad game. It's just a vastly different game. I hope this made more sense than what I had said before. :D

 

[theONEjanitor]

Gimpyfish is easily one of the most intelligent posters on this site, but MORE COMBOS/GIMPS=MORE COMPETITIVE GAME is one the most the ******** statements ever made.

this is what I have been arguing since day one about Brawl.

the game makes you THINK.

You guys are so used to combos being programmed into your brain and your fingers automatically performing them that you don't want to THINK any more.

You uptilt an opponent, maybe in the past you could have f-aired, but in brawl you can't, as they can react beforehand. So what you do you do?

How about not try to attack. Use your brain, REACT to what they do. It makes it a chess match, of two people trying to outthink each other., not a pre-programmed, insta-combo for every situation. This is why I like Brawl better than Melee. because a mindless fox can't mash muscle-memorized button combinations and drag me across the stage and gimp kill me. That requires NO THINKING. In brawl you are FORCED to learn spacing, and forced to play smart, and forced to make your hits count. Its MORE competitive.


Are there gimp kills and juggle across the stage combos in Super Turbo?
Yet it's still one of the most competitively viable games of all time.

Combos are cool, no doubt. But everyone making a big deal about the lack of them in Brawl is ********. Sure Brawl won't look all flashy, and people won't be able to do cool inter-stock victory techs, or juggle characters across FD. Who cares, just learn to beat your opponent, and spend less time trying to fight the physics of the game.

What i'm saying, I guess, is that the only way that the decrease of combos will cause 'backwards progression" is if you measure game progression using Melee, as a guide. Sure its in the same series, but its a different game.

Some game are designed such that skill is majorly defined by how many combos and techs you can develop and how well you use them. I say majorly because a level of thinking is required in order to find opportunities to pull most of these combos off. Melee is an example of this. Another example is the Guilty Gear games.

Some games are designed such that skill is majorly defined by learning how to constantly outwit and pressure your opponent through out the course of the entire match. Not just once so you can pull of your killer combo.
Brawl is an example of this. As I mentioned before Super Turbo is another. Tekken is another.

in general the latter makes for better games.

They are different games. brawl is not melee.

Gimpyfish you said you wanted brawl to be different from Melee. But if you want it to have more combos and more gimp kills, you DO want it to be like Melee.

If Brawl dies early its going be because of a community full of Melee-minded fanboys that refused to give a chance. It won't have anything to do with the game itself.

 

[controlfreak7]

johnknight said it the only solution right now is heavy brawl...

The biggest issue right now that i'm dealing with is brawl as it is right now is a complete joke and melee is an amazing game, but i've been anticipating brawl way too much to simply just let it go and dismiss it as a party game. Like I said there's so many things that have already been exploited and there might be something that can be the solution (what is there that can possibly save this game i have no idea).

I can't go back to melee not with the satisfaction I got from it before, it just feels pointless. So at this point i don't know what to do.

Gimpy you're right about backwards progression, but it isn't as much of a process as it seems to be portrayed. 10 matches of brawl is all u need to "progress backwards" completely.

 

[Demon Kirby]

but i've been anticipating brawl way too much to simply just let it go and dismiss it as a party game.

I've probably anticipated it as much as any non-competitive player could (or very close to it), yet I openly dismiss it as a party game, because party games are fun. Plus, I like parties.

 

[Eternal Neo]

i'm hoping we can at least get a heavy brawl scene established before people get tired and stop playing the game. while not perfect i believe it has a fair amount of competitive potential.

 

[orintemple]

So we had this huge online tourney today called Smash Wars, it was a huge success and a lot of fun. We all played with regular rules. Tons of people said it was great and they wanted more.

So I think Brawl is fine for now.

HOWEVER!

I did play some heavy Brawl today and WOW. I like Marth again, and my new main Fox is still awesome. It was a lot of fun, honestly I don't have a preference over the 2 either way. I like them both. Although there is going to be ALOT of opposition in trying to change the standard to Heavy.

 

[theONEjanitor]

He is probably just johnning, but we all must admit that Melee takes much more skill.

if by skill, you mean the ability to press specific button sequences very fast without messing up. yes.

if by skill, you mean the ability to consistently outwit your opponent and make sure all of your hits count. not so much

 

[lain]

theOnejanitor's is for slight consideration, but it's not like you can be a good player by being really technical while not very smart or good at spacing or etc.

 

[NES n00b]

if by skill, you mean the ability to press specific button sequences very fast without messing up. yes.

if by skill, you mean the ability to consistently outwit your opponent and make sure all of your hits count. not so much

Mindgames and techskill = Melee. Brawl = mindgames. If we agree techskill is a skill (notice it says skill in techskill lol) then Melee has to be deeper especially since there has been a much bigger development of the metagame where people got spacing, techskill, and game knoweledge down to an art.

 

[Gluttony]

Mindgames and techskill = Melee. Brawl = mindgames. If we agree techskill is a skill (notice it says skill in techskill lol) then Melee has to be deeper especially since there has been a much bigger development of the metagame where people got spacing, techskill, and game knoweledge down to an art.

Different games. Now people have to learn patience, drawing people to make the wrong move, how to keep their defense up, when to make an attack to finish off their opponent, timing shield better, etc. Defense is pretty much the entire game in Brawl. Plus it's not as easy to master as many people are claiming. People I know who have played the game for weeks still cannot prevent me from closing in on them and pounding them. At the same time they can't even kill me once because they can't get past my defense. If they try to play defensively they die at it. Why? Because they're not as good. This is how to tell who has the most skill.

This doesn't make the game harder than melee but there is still a lot of skill involved. There's not that many except those that participate in competitions that can create perfect defenses. In those types of competition patience is key to victory. Plus you got to chip away at their health without allowing them to do the same to you. Comboing has been reduced almost to nil but that just makes this game different. The person with the better defense is the victor.

 

[ndm508]

I have to agree with ONEjanitor. With everything you said. Great post sir.

 

[Shai Hulud]

In Melee you had to think, and you actually had to be fast about it. There were so many situations that could arise within the next 1 - 2 seconds that you had to be thinking constantly about what could happen. For instance, Fox edgeguarding Fox/Falco, the whole process takes approximately 1 second. In that time you have to decide whether your opponent is going to try to sweetspot the edge with an over-B, sweet spot with an up-B, up-B above the edge and move onto the stage, up-B into the stage, over-B to land on the stage, shortened over-B to grab the edge, over-B onto a platform, and up-B onto a platform. Each one of these requires a different edgeguarding tactic, and you have to decide which to use in about one second. And this is just one situation. There are hundreds more of situations like this where you have to think extremely quickly about what to do, and then you have to execute a plan to deal with the situation, in a very limited amount of time.

So don't say in Melee you don't have to think or outwit your opponent. That's just not true. You just have to think a lot faster. For some people, maybe they aren't able to think that fast so they just do random things, but the farther you advance competitively, the more every single move is done for a purpose. Because if you do something that the situation doesn't call for, chances are good you're going to be punished, which in Melee is a lot more than taking a random hit. You have to be thinking CONSTANTLY.

 

[lain]

Shai Hulud is <3

 

[Gluttony]

In Melee you had to think, and you actually had to be fast about it. There were so many situations that could arise within the next 1 - 2 seconds that you had to be thinking constantly about what could happen. For instance, Fox edgeguarding Fox/Falco, the whole process takes approximately 1 second. In that time you have to decide whether your opponent is going to try to sweetspot the edge with an over-B, sweet spot with an up-B, up-B above the edge and move onto the stage, up-B into the stage, over-B to land on the stage, shortened over-B to grab the edge, over-B onto a platform, and up-B onto a platform. Each one of these requires a different edgeguarding tactic, and you have to decide which to use in about one second. And this is just one situation. There are hundreds more of situations like this where you have to think extremely quickly about what to do, and then you have to execute a plan to deal with the situation, in a very limited amount of time.

So don't say in Melee you don't have to think or outwit your opponent. That's just not true. You just have to think a lot faster. For some people, maybe they aren't able to think that fast so they just do random things, but the farther you advance competitively, the more every single move is done for a purpose. Because if you do something that the situation doesn't call for, chances are good you're going to be punished, which in Melee is a lot more than taking a random hit. You have to be thinking CONSTANTLY.

I hope you're not talking about me because I never claimed that you don't have to think for Melee. I even said in my post that it requires people to think on their toes and react quickly. Melee takes a lot of skill. I'm not doubting that. My point is that in Brawl thinking is pretty much the main point of the game, however. That as well as a powerful defense. In Brawl you have to predict what your opponent is going to do to try to break your defense. Each characters have many different ways of closing the gap.

Predicting correctly causes them to take some minor damage. I understand that it's not a combo but now they have two options. They can turtle which gives you an edge because now they've taken some damage or they can try again which puts you at another advantage, If they mess up again they're even closer to being finished than before. If they go defensive but are at a higher percent than you.. well.. you can slowly chip at their life to pressure them. This can force them to go offense but completely screw up which would lead to their defeat. There's ways to close the gap to but they're not easy. These ways require skill and are really dangerous in the brawl game.

My point is that Brawl requires completely different tactics but it doesn't necessarily make Melee superior to it. Just different. Melee requires a lot of skill too. Melee also requires fast reflexes but so does Brawl as well. Perhaps not as much as Melee but you got to shield at the right time. You got to evade at the right time. You got to make a decision about what your opponent is going to do to try to break your defense etc. People are trying to make it seem that brawl is 100% skilless but it's not true. I'm not claiming that you're saying that Brawl takes 0 skill but some have. I just wish a competitive scene can coexist and allow both games in on it.

 

[ndm508]

That's all well and fine, we all were excited for Brawl because Melee was and still is a fantastic game, its been around this long for a reason.

That said, it's broken as hell. You can get a ton of skill but at the end of the day it came down to who was faster at pulling of glitches with a space furry.

Brawl isn't as fast as Melee and yes, there's a ton of stuff I miss from Melee. But it's a lot more balanced, Gimpy brought up fine points, but I completely disagree. The matches last a lot longer and because of these physics, it requires a lot more thought and skill that just slamming in the only combos that you can win with. I LIKE the way Brawl works, its not the insane fast fights of Melee, but hell if it's not fun regardless. I know you guys hate hearing this isn't Melee 2.0, and it is a stupid comment, but seriously, this is a completely different game, and a lot of love was put into making it. It's a great game, enjoy it or shut the hell up.

 

[abgar]

it sems some people at this forum thinks that brawl should be something like "Super Smash Bros: Melee Special edition" or something.

i could barely understand what was happening in a melee match. now i can aleast fight better.

 

[RoK the Reaper]

Stop *****ing and play.

 

[Mr.E]

To quote my response on another forum: Bolded line is especially important.

Pros cry "lack of combos prevent proper punishment for successfully approaching." They neglect to mention it works both ways -- a failed approach is also punished less. The risk/reward is still the same ratio, just on a smaller scale. Defensive skills like Air Dodging and Perfect Shielding can also be used to approach.

Besides which, there are still "combos." I don't mean that in the true sense of the word but typically once you hit your opponent a couple times and get in an advantageous position, you have the tempo to pile on more damage until they can get back to a neutral position. You don't knock someone up in the air and just let them come down, you don't hit someone off the stage and let them get back without a fight.

...Reading all the negative nancy responses is just downright tired and old by now. It's inconclusive how Brawl will end up, but I can tell you now [Brawl] WILL become a campfest if that's all the "pros" do. After all, that's how a metagame is defined.

Don't give me crap about how approaching is more difficult. Many jab attacks upon landing hit faster than a Shield (not Perfect Shielding) can be dropped, plus there are your traditional methods of defeating a defensive set-up. Cross-up with your aerial, use a grab instead of an attack, hold your attack if you expect a Dodge, whatever. It's still the same rock/paper/scissors type of system we've always had in Smash and, as stated in my quoted passage, the only difference is the scale or degree to which punishment occurs. BUT IT WORKS BOTH WAYS.

Do something besides hardcore camping, sitting across the stage from one another chipping away. The metagame can't possibly develop to include anything else if nobody DOES do anything else.

At worst, Brawl is a completely different beast from Melee and if Melee's competitive side continued to flourish alongside Brawl I'd be all for it. Don't draw overly pessimistic conclusions about how Brawl can never be truly competitive. Brawl is and will be competitive whether or not it's more competitive than Melee, you guys sound like you WANT Brawl to fail and are trying to kill its competitive spirit.

There has to be some synonyms for "competitive," sheesh.

 

[FrostByte]

People are saying that brawl is based on mindgames, yet in the longrun mindgames won't get you as far in Brawl as they did in Melee. So what's the point of even trying to use them? You can outpredict someone til' kingdom come on Brawl and score something like 30%, yet your opponent who may not be very smart can still hit you and gain that kind of percentage.

This is why we are forced to use camping tactics.