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Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

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Repryx

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^^Lolz I gotta disagree with Azens statement (for once)

Im like in the SAME boat as before. I can crush N00bs (with less ease mind you) and people that can beat their little sister and brothers but I cant beat any of the pros or people who were already better than me. It takes about the same amount of effort in brawl as it does in Melee except now its based on sheilding then Fsmash or jabbing or (maybe) grabbing. IMO brawl is a great game its just once you figure out how to exploit the lack of hitstun and extra dodgeframes and reduced lag on dodge frames. It comes down to who sheilds and dodges more. Also if you have no projectiles and you are playing another person on your level WITH projectiles, its going make ALL the difference in the difficulty of the battle.

That combined with certain characters having Sakurai-given potential (such as Peach cancelling almost ALL aerial moves) make the game much harder if you want to use someone like....Sonic or even Ike.

IMO Melee was just more fun to play due to the exploiting of the GAME not just certain Characters. and sure there were tiers but Chu Dat proved that Low tier could be amazing if used correctly.

Also IMO Chu has somewhat of an advantage due to Icees and Pika being buffed so that sorta disproves Azens statement to an extent.

But yeah the game is more camping now I find Melee more fun because I liked the pursuit game. If I could get you to roll I could punish it. Now with the lack of lag on rolls, if you pursue a roll...YOU ARE SCREWED.


Sorry I went from argue to vent

-ciao
 

cwjalex

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The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.
If you were never a competitive Melee tournament player then you won't understand what he is talking about. No amount of explanation will ever be able to make you comprehend because of the huge depth that Melee provided. If you have played Melee everyday since the day it came out, but never entered the tournament scene, you still won't understand.

Because of Brawl's lack of character mobility and slower engine the best approach is not to approach at all, but simply wait for your opponent to make a move. This is the stale, simplified game that Gimpy is talking about.

Many of you Brawl players new to the competitive smash scene vehemently deny the lack of aggressiveness and combo ability. I hate to inform you that the reason you are pulling off these combos and gimp kills is because your opponent is not good. It's as simple as that. The slower speed makes DIing and air dodging out of comboes extremely easy for even a casual player.

What you most likely haven't encountered is a player that is able to space himself out of every single one of your attacks, while punishing you for any movement/attack that you perform. Furthermore, he most likely will just stand a roll or a dash-attack distance away from you and force you to make a move.

And the real kicker? This is NOT difficult to do. Amateur players such as myself find that I play very well against Melee pros such as KDJ simply by playing an overly defensive style. If this is not evidence of a flawed smash brothers game I don't see what is.
 

Fletch

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It's questionable statements that require my subjective, negative to an extent, replies.

WHAT IN THE SWEET NAME OF PRECIOUS BABY BACK RIBS JESUS SON OF THE GREAT BEARDED GUY IN THE SKY CHRIST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?

How can you say that. I want to know how you were able to type those words without being struck by lightning, laughing yourself to death, or being held at gun point. A fox SHFFL'ing niars wasn't the major decider in a match. Anyone can spam a move, as evident by the major play style of BRAWL. Fox players had to understand the speed, spacing, and timing of their moves in order to effectively pull off chain hits. Same goes for ANY other Melee character. It wasn't about finding that one move and doing it over and over until they missed.

Then you find the oddassity to claim that Brawl matches are more exciting. What? WHAT?! Then you claim that, and I quote, "you can actually see the thoughts and strategies behind the characters." Because, as we all know, such things just weren't found in Melee videos. No, they just slammed control sticks and buttons and said, "LOL, Wavedash, I WIN!!!!1!11" No, there was a lot of strategie. You had to know what was best for each character. Each matchup was different. Each player played their character different. Knowing how to adapt and get feel to each fight was a necessity. In comparison, if you have a strong camping strategy, it's probably going to fit into the sceme of every fight you play. No changes.

If you think that someone smashing in the opposite direction and hoping the other person is going to roll into is awesome, then I guess I don't have much to say to that. Random occurences in your favor are cool, but what if that person didn't roll? That move takes 3 seconds to come out! The other person could walk up, charge a smash, and hit them. That's not awesome, that's dumb.

gb2 chess for strategy. Not Brawl.
Little harsh, but couldn't help laughing at the complete ownage taking place in this post. Great post.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
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If you were never a competitive Melee tournament player then you won't understand what he is talking about. No amount of explanation will ever be able to make you comprehend because of the huge depth that Melee provided. If you have played Melee everyday since the day it came out, but never entered the tournament scene, you still won't understand.

Because of Brawl's lack of character mobility and slower engine the best approach is not to approach at all, but simply wait for your opponent to make a move. This is the stale, simplified game that Gimpy is talking about.

Many of you Brawl players new to the competitive smash scene vehemently deny the lack of aggressiveness and combo ability. I hate to inform you that the reason you are pulling off these combos and gimp kills is because your opponent is not good. It's as simple as that. The slower speed makes DIing and air dodging out of comboes extremely easy for even a casual player.

What you most likely haven't encountered is a player that is able to space himself out of every single one of your attacks, while punishing you for any movement/attack that you perform. Furthermore, he most likely will just stand a roll or a dash-attack distance away from you and force you to make a move.

And the real kicker? This is NOT difficult to do. Amateur players such as myself find that I play very well against Melee pros such as KDJ simply by playing an overly defensive style. If this is not evidence of a flawed smash brothers game I don't see what is.
Some of us acknowledge the lack of aggressiveness in this game. Just as I pointed out in the posts and despite that still enjoy playing on a competitive level. I may not be a known player but that doesn't change the fact that I actually enjoy playing this defensive happy, camping dominat game. Sure people who consider themselves "amateurs" can take on pros by camping but eventually there's going to be more people who are pro at camping and will dominate every other camper. The part where you were explaining about how someone can punish someone for advancing.. that IS skill and strategy. If you encounter someone better than you at it. You'll lose. It's that simple. The thing is that the old melee pros are either going to have to adapt to this style or become inferior to those who are great at being defensive.

I do NOT believe that Brawl is a better game than Melee. It's simply a different game. Corey is right about one thing that he said. It's very very far from it's predecessors. It's very different. I like Melee for it's style. I like Brawl for it's style.
 

King~

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WHy do people keep compairng brawl to a broken F'ing game

Don't Get me wrong Melee was awesome compared to brawl but the fact is that it was broken. the only reason that im getting for people to be callin it broke is becaused their used to playing on a flawed system of checks and balances(Captilizing on attacks which is still very possible). its not broken it was fixed from the previous version.

also if you lose to some one owell it happens, get over it. No excuses all you have to do is win. the eliteism on the forum is very high. just because your good at one game does not make you good at another
 

arrowhead

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WHy do people keep compairng brawl to a broken F'ing game

Don't Get me wrong Melee was awesome compared to brawl but the fact is that it was broken. the only reason that im getting for people to be callin it broke is becaused their used to playing on a flawed system of checks and balances(Captilizing on attacks which is still very possible). its not broken it was fixed from the previous version.

also if you lose to some one owell it happens, get over it. No excuses all you have to do is win. the eliteism on the forum is very high. just because your good at one game does not make you good at another
what's wrong with comparing a game with its prequel? the newer game is supposed to advance gameplay, not limit it like brawl did

melee was never broken

losing to someone because you're worse than them is okay. losing to someone because you're tired of playing defensively means the game just sucks. camping shouldn't have to be the only way to win.

you type so confidently but you understand so little...
 

Gluttony

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what's wrong with comparing a game with its prequel? the newer game is supposed to advance gameplay, not limit it like brawl did

melee was never broken

losing to someone because you're worse than them is okay. losing to someone because you're tired of playing defensively means the game just sucks. camping shouldn't have to be the only way to win.

you type so confidently but you understand so little...
The game sucks in your opinion. The game does take skill and you don't simply lose because you're tired of being defensive. Someone can also be better at being defensive and dominate you that way. Plus there is some offensiveness involved. If you whittle enough of the person's hp. You have to advance in order to finish them off. Normally projectile based attacks are never strong enough to actually defeat someone. Now I know that most find it boring but I actually enjoy Brawl matches. It's your OPINION that it sucks.

There is skill involved in turtling. Why do I think that? It's simple. I can stay in one spot, punish my friends, and defeat them without them being able to do much to me. If they try to pull the same tactics on me I can dodge, shield, and air dodge over or even pressure them into either abandoning a defensive play style and attacking me or simply die out. This is because.. I'm superior to them. I'm more skilled. This isn't bragging but showing that there's skill involved. So if there is different skill levels then that makes the game competitive.

Melee is great. I agree with you there. I don't think that Melee is broken. I enjoy Melee just as much as Brawl. The speed, the techniques, learning curve, and even the combos make it for one awesome game but this doesn't mean I hate Brawl either. I think both games are good in their own way but not everyone sees it that way. You can think it sucks but understand that it's not a truth. I don't think it does at all. I wish you luck and lots of enjoyment in whatever you end up deciding to stick with. :)
 

arrowhead

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The game sucks in your opinion. The game does take skill and you don't simply lose because you're tired of being defensive. Someone can also be better at being defensive and dominate you that way. Plus there is some offensiveness involved. If you whittle enough of the person's hp. You have to advance in order to finish them off. Normally projectile based attacks are never strong enough to actually defeat someone. Now I know that most find it boring but I actually enjoy Brawl matches. It's your OPINION that it sucks.

There is skill involved in turtling. Why do I think that? It's simple. I can stay in one spot, punish my friends, and defeat them without them being able to do much to me. If they try to pull the same tactics on me I can dodge, shield, and air dodge over or even pressure them into either abandoning a defensive play style and attacking me or simply die out. This is because.. I'm superior to them. I'm more skilled. This isn't bragging but showing that there's skill involved. So if there is different skill levels then that makes the game competitive.

Melee is great. I agree with you there. I don't think that Melee is broken. I enjoy Melee just as much as Brawl. The speed, the techniques, learning curve, and even the combos make it for one awesome game but this doesn't mean I hate Brawl either. I think both games are good in their own way but not everyone sees it that way. You can think it sucks but understand that it's not a truth. I don't think it does at all. I wish you luck and lots of enjoyment in whatever you end up deciding to stick with. :)
i never said brawl doesn't take skill. it takes almost an equal amount of skill as melee since you're playing against humans. but most competitive players agree with me when i say it's more boring. less combos, less options, and slower gameplay isn't a plus.
 

King~

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what's wrong with comparing a game with its prequel? the newer game is supposed to advance gameplay, not limit it like brawl did

melee was never broken

losing to someone because you're worse than them is okay. losing to someone because you're tired of playing defensively means the game just sucks. camping shouldn't have to be the only way to win.

you type so confidently but you understand so little...
All the glitches in melee beg to differ.

Brawl didnt limit it only caused you to have to think diffrent, campin isnt the only strategy to win we just havent realised it yet.

also if you lose to someone cause you got tired of something then you sir suck and would then be considered a quitter. All you have to do is win plain and simple.

WHat i understand is a bunch of people are complaning cause they can't win like they used to anymore which is causing them to be dissipointed cause they thought nothing was going to change.
 

Gluttony

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i never said brawl doesn't take skill. it takes almost an equal amount of skill as melee since you're playing against humans. but most competitive players agree with me when i say it's more boring. less combos, less options, and slower gameplay isn't a plus.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Most of those points weren't towards you but just a repeat on my takes of the debate. I was just saying that "sucks" is really only an opinion. I like the game. Some people don't. I hate cheese burgers. A lot of people like them. I know most competitive players don't like Brawl. I have nothing against them either. I even understand why they're mad. The creator made a game that was so far from it's predecessors that many players feel betrayed. I was just saying that there's many of us that like Brawl too (mostly casuals but some pros as well.). I also hate when people claim Melee takes no skill or that it's broken because that's not true either. This is coming from someone that likes Brawl.

People also claim that killing people with advanced techniques is skilless which is also a lie. Melee takes a lot of skill/talent. It's just very different from Brawl. I agree with some of your points and respect your opinion. I just don't think Brawl sucks.
 

Xephalon

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Brawl doesn't suck, its absolutely fun. Its much more of a party game instead of a competitive game, which I think is what Nintendo is trying to make it be, giving all players a pretty equal chance of winning. L-canceling and Wavedashing is what made melee so competitive and not so boring, with these everything flows out soo well creating new combos no matter the age of the game. In Brawl the knockback system just removes most or all combos of the game, removing some skills, awe, and the competitiveness of Super Smash Bros.
 

arrowhead

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All the glitches in melee beg to differ.

Brawl didnt limit it only caused you to have to think diffrent, campin isnt the only strategy to win we just havent realised it yet.

also if you lose to someone cause you got tired of something then you sir suck and would then be considered a quitter. All you have to do is win plain and simple.

WHat i understand is a bunch of people are complaning cause they can't win like they used to anymore which is causing them to be dissipointed cause they thought nothing was going to change.
what glitches? WD? that's not even a glitch.

you don't seem to get the point. winning by camping is boring. read that sentence again. now read it one more time. aw you're hopeless, you probably don't even understand it now.



people are saying brawl sucks because they're comparing it to melee. if melee were never made, i'd think brawl was amazing. too bad sakurai purposely made the game more shallow
 

Gluttony

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what glitches? WD? that's not even a glitch.

you don't seem to get the point. winning by camping is boring. read that sentence again. now read it one more time. aw you're hopeless, you probably don't even understand it now.



people are saying brawl sucks because they're comparing it to melee. if melee were never made, i'd think brawl was amazing. too bad sakurai purposely made the game more shallow
I compare Brawl to melee and find that I enjoy it just as much. Once again, it's your opinion that it sucks/is boring. I also played Melee competively and knew how to apply the advanced techniques. So I'm not a casual player saying this. Sure, I'm not a known player but I did show up to tournaments and even won some locally.
 

arrowhead

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I compare Brawl to melee and find that I enjoy it just as much. Once again, it's your opinion that it sucks/is boring. I also played Melee competively and knew how to apply the advanced techniques. So I'm not a casual player saying this. Sure, I'm not a known player but I did show up to tournaments and even won some locally.
when i say it's boring, i speak for the majority of competitive players. i'm glad you find enjoyment in what most of us don't, though i do wonder what you think is so appealing about brawl
 

Gluttony

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when i say it's boring, i speak for the majority of competitive players. i'm glad you find enjoyment in what most of us don't, though i do wonder what you think is so appealing about brawl
I was very big into chess tournaments. So sitting around, being defensive, whittling away at people's health, and long matches don't bother me at all nor do they bore me. I'm used to sitting around waiting for my opponent to move. Plus I have to still constantly be pressing buttons to ensure that my target constantly feels pressured and can't close in. While keeping up my advantages so I can safely approach and finish him off when he's dying. There's still the matter of controlling the entire match. Sure, you must do that from one position but a good opponent is trying to do the same. The fun factor is trying to outdo them.
 

Gluttony

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If only Brawl made me think anywhere near as much as chess
While it's true you don't have to think as much as chess it still requires that you think. I find that you have to actually think a lot more than melee (no, this isn't an attempt to prove it's a better game or more deep). Simply because camping is currently the dominant strategy you're constantly pressured. The decision whether to approach or defend crops up a lot. If you find that the person is better at controlling the field than you.. it becomes very hard. The only option at this point is to approach which is what they want you to do.

Then it comes down to how to approach. You have many options on how but all of them can be countered rather easily. So in order to stay in the game you have to come up with a way to trick your opponent or lose. There has been some times where someone was able to outcamp me but being clever I managed to close in and regain advantage. It's not easy at all. In melee you didn't have to think as much but you did have to think as hard. You had to think VERY quickly because if you didn't you were dead. Plus even if you could think quickly you also had to be able to keep up with your opponent through quick reflexes, speed, and strategicly.

In this game spacing is still very important. Timing is also very crucial. You have to be very precise with your dodges, shield, and spacing. It's also beneficial to be able to think about your opponents options, what they're going to do, how to counter their moves, when to block, when to counter attack, when to approach for the kill, and there's more. Brawl isn't mindless. I guess this also answers where my enjoyment comes from it but my point about the chess was that if I can watch two people playing chess. I can watch or play brawl matches without getting bored. :p
 

Gill

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The people who are complaining, I sympathize with. I know all of them are complaining because they truly want to like Brawl, and they can't, for various reasons. They complain because they don't WANT to go back to melee, I don't think anybody wants to. If they really didn't care, they wouldn't say anything, just quietly go back to Melee.

People need to stop saying that these people wanted Melee 2.0, some of them did, for sure, but the part thats pissing them off is not the fact that wavedashing and L-canceling are gone. Whats annoying them is that the doors that those two techniques opened have now been closed. Its not about how they no longer have "glitches to exploit."

The dramatic drop in speed is whats irking them. They waited for a very long time to play this game, through a lot of delay, and they're disappointed. Let them have their rants and whines. Its not as if they're complaining for the hell of it, a lot of them are sincerely crushed.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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It's questionable statements that require my subjective, negative to an extent, replies.

WHAT IN THE SWEET NAME OF PRECIOUS BABY BACK RIBS JESUS SON OF THE GREAT BEARDED GUY IN THE SKY CHRIST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?

How can you say that. I want to know how you were able to type those words without being struck by lightning, laughing yourself to death, or being held at gun point. A fox SHFFL'ing niars wasn't the major decider in a match. Anyone can spam a move, as evident by the major play style of BRAWL. Fox players had to understand the speed, spacing, and timing of their moves in order to effectively pull off chain hits. Same goes for ANY other Melee character. It wasn't about finding that one move and doing it over and over until they missed.

Then you find the oddassity to claim that Brawl matches are more exciting. What? WHAT?! Then you claim that, and I quote, "you can actually see the thoughts and strategies behind the characters." Because, as we all know, such things just weren't found in Melee videos. No, they just slammed control sticks and buttons and said, "LOL, Wavedash, I WIN!!!!1!11" No, there was a lot of strategie. You had to know what was best for each character. Each matchup was different. Each player played their character different. Knowing how to adapt and get feel to each fight was a necessity. In comparison, if you have a strong camping strategy, it's probably going to fit into the sceme of every fight you play. No changes.

If you think that someone smashing in the opposite direction and hoping the other person is going to roll into is awesome, then I guess I don't have much to say to that. Random occurences in your favor are cool, but what if that person didn't roll? That move takes 3 seconds to come out! The other person could walk up, charge a smash, and hit them. That's not awesome, that's dumb.

gb2 chess for strategy. Not Brawl.
Good on you for not being able to detect exaggeration, and misunderstanding. By "fox landing a Nair" I was more talking about the way that in Melee, the high-tier characters could land one 3-frame l-canceled attack on the opponent and it would lead up into a death combo or at least something that would rack up a great deal of damage. Ness could combo Fox and some other fast-falling characters from 0% to 60% and then fling him off the stage for edgeguarding using only up throws and the occasinal DJC headbutt. Likewise, Fox could infinate shine Ness off the stage if he landed so much as a Dair. And then there's Falcon and his various knee-enders, or Jigglypuff using an up tilt and then KOing you at 20% with rest.

I find Brawl matches to be more exciting to watch and to play. Moreso than Melee anyway. It was one of the first things that caught my attention once I got a hang of the new playstyle. I love how everything in Brawl feels much more defensive, and that everything feels like you have to be much more precise. Of course, I would have preferred to have a few more actual combos, but currently I don't miss them at all. The new shield in Brawl is excellent. It may drop faster, allowing you to punish attackers more easily, but it's also a lot more fragile and grows smaller faster than it did in Melee. You also can't light shield. So you decide that camping is the way to go, and start dodging around, expecting your opponent to attack your shield? If you overdo it, your shield gets small very quickly and openings start to appear.

And where do you get that about the playstyle in Brawl being spamming a single move? for starters, move spamming in Brawl is punished a lot more than it is in Melee thanks to the decay system. The most spammable moves are the ones that aren't supposed to KO. And even if your opponent is spamming projectiles to try and keep you at bay, it's much easier to make your way around them because of the new air dodge mechanic.

You obviously aren't fully understanding my point of view here. A Dedede player throwing the Fsmash behind him is not merely just a random impulsive action. It's not something you'd do at the beginning of the match. Something like that comes after you've analysed your opponent's dodging routine. Let's say that player 1 likes to approach with Dedede's Ftilt, and player 2 likes rolling behind people. Pretty soon, player 1 realises that player 2 can predict a poke and seems to prefer rolling around it. Player 1 then decides that since A) his Dedede is at a decently low % and can afford to take a risk, and B) the opponent is partial to rolling as part of his playstyle, there is a high chance that the opponent will attempt to move in the planned manner when approached. It's mind games. They existed in Melee and still exist in Brawl. However, Brawl's more defensive metagame makes them more prominent and valuable. Seeing something like that in a match makes me think "Hah wow, that was a clever move by that Dedede player. He was really paying attention to his opponent. If he had have stuffed that up, it would have caused him problems. That was intense." But in Melee, matches usually end with me thinking "Captain Falcon ended that match with knee combo no.#6. from that situation it was safe for him to do that. Good move."

Brawl matches tend to be more spontaneous. It's not the same as being random. They simply don't seem so formulated. Melee was like "Ok, I'm going to approach with Ness's Fair out of a short hop. Even if I miss or my opponent shields it, I can always just L-cancel it on landing to cut the lag and get to safety. The most they can do is shield grab me, which won't always work given the multi-hit nature of the attack and the fact that I'm going to follow up with Ftilt as soon as I land, which comes out faster than most grabs." Or with Fox. "I'll use my Dair from a short hop. The worst they can do is shield it, but they can't punish me since I'll use my reflector and jump to safety. Or even lead into another Dair. Oh boy!".

And if you have a strong camping strategy in Brawl, it won't fit into every match you play any less than it would in Melee. There are a lot more character-specific techniques in Brawl that aren't universal and will totally effect how you need to deal with your opponent. Pikachu CANNOT play a good camping game against Lucas. He can pretty much APPROACH with PSI magnet against a Pikachu who uses too many projectiles. Likewise, a Toon Link player going to be wanting to use too many projectiles against a Lucas who knows how to hit them back at you with his bat. Lucario may be a campy character with baby aura spheres, but he can't do anything when Wario just plows right through them with his bike. And don't even get me started on Snake.

Honestly, I don't know what everyone is complaining about. I've always had a defensive playing style in Melee, so perhaps Brawl just came more naturally to me. It could also have something to do with the fact that as soon as I found out about Brawl, I stopped playing Melee altogether because I knew that the new game would be different, and that a lot of the things I'd had to rely on in Melee wouldn't work in Brawl.

Looks like some other people should have tried the same.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

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Good on you for not being able to detect exaggeration, and misunderstanding. By "fox landing a Nair" I was more talking about the way that in Melee, the high-tier characters could land one 3-frame l-canceled attack
There are no aerials that have 3 frames of lag.

Pichu has the one with the least lag with 6, I think, and all of Samus' have 7, making her the character with the lowest lag aerials over all.

Why is every noob saying that Fox' shffls are so lagless?

Cuz they have no idea what the hell they're talking about.
 

King~

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what glitches? WD? that's not even a glitch.

you don't seem to get the point. winning by camping is boring. read that sentence again. now read it one more time. aw you're hopeless, you probably don't even understand it now.



people are saying brawl sucks because they're comparing it to melee. if melee were never made, i'd think brawl was amazing. too bad sakurai purposely made the game more shallow
Youtube-> Melee Glitches

im not even goin get on the WD thing cause thats a whole nother subject matter.

well if camping is boring to you why are you using it to win, are you so incompetent with your skills that you can't win any other way. if you lost it dosent matter how its just that you lost as simple as that

Whats not to understand, you've been playin a game for seven years and you got excellent at it, a new game comes out and you still expect to be at the top. Big suprise that other people play the game who are actually good and you can't seem to win like you "used" to now its bad.

your comparing a game you played faithfully for seven years to a game youve been playing for a month or two
 

Gill

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well if camping is boring to you why are you using it to win, are you so incompetent with your skills that you can't win any other way.
You do understand that playing aggressively gets you punished, right? Sometimes there literally is no other way to win. Sometimes you can only counter campers by camping even more than them.

if you lost it dosent matter how its just that you lost as simple as that.
No, its not as simple as that. You can't make vague, open-ended statements and then talk with finality as if you set everything straight. o_O
 

FrostByte

Smash Lord
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In melee you didn't have to think as much but you did have to think as hard. You had to think VERY quickly because if you didn't you were dead. Plus even if you could think quickly you also had to be able to keep up with your opponent through quick reflexes, speed, and strategicly.
In melee, you had to think every time you got hit or delivered one. Everytime your opponent landed on the ground, you'd have to think. There's not much point in chasing opponents in brawl because, thanks to the advanced defensive system, they'll most likely be getting away from you.

In this game spacing is still very important. Timing is also very crucial. You have to be very precise with your dodges, shield, and spacing. It's also beneficial to be able to think about your opponents options, what they're going to do, how to counter their moves, when to block, when to counter attack, when to approach for the kill, and there's more. Brawl isn't mindless. I guess this also answers where my enjoyment comes from it but my point about the chess was that if I can watch two people playing chess. I can watch or play brawl matches without getting bored. :p
Brawl is a much safer game than melee is. By that I mean the pressure game is nonexistant. Pressure spacing is a waste of time because you'll hardly get anything off it. What you described in that paragraph sounds more like Melee IMO.
 

Grmo

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Alright, I know I don't need to quote every single person in this thread that I intend to address; you know who you are. I want to address the people who have posted saying that Brawl is better for any of the following reasons:

a) You can't be gimped very easily
b) You can't be "cheaply" killed by fox at low percents
c) You don't have to sit around and be kicked around by Fox the whole match
d) Melee was full of things that were "cheap", like extensive combos which are now gone

Look, these are all fairly true, except for the part about them being "cheap". Honestly whenever I hear that word I just...ergh, nevermind. Anyway, the beauty of those "cheap" things in Melee is that everyone has equal access to them. If they're being a ***** to you, you can do it back to them. One player can always have a counter to the other's moves, and it goes back and forth like that. Matches become fast paced and exciting, and any of you who have experienced these matches at a tournament will surely know this. Nothing is really cheap because you can do it back to them. I mean, if it was something that only player 2 could do, then yeah, that's cheap. But anything else? There's an answer to it, in the form of an awesome combo or some crazy mindgame. In Brawl? Well, it doesn't seem like it's going in that direction. Your answers are generally going to be to back off and start camping. It's a spacing fest. If you can land your hits then you're good; trying to control a match is pretty hard for most characters. In truth, you may be able to do combos now, but the technical progression of Brawl will eventually leave those combos in the dust. That was what Gimpy was trying to say. Note that I'm referring to competative playing. He said competative play will eventually die, not the game. The game will still be a great party game.
 

xpyr0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
16
alright im saying this. if all the people in the world who play this game competitively say camping is the best thing to do fine. you won. are you happy? camping is the best. But my question is can't anyone find a way around camping? I mean this game isn't THAT shallow. Ive played melee and realized that camping is impossible to do cuz you get punished badly. Ive also learned that playing aggressively in brawl for the most part gets you punished. But ive learned how to camp and so have my friends (which definitely isn't that hard) and have seen camping get broken. Especially with the use of reflectors, and faking out.. But as far as i can see camping is good but it can be broken. I mean is the smash community that weak to just wait for a game for like 3 years then give it up in 3 weeks. What I'm gonna do is try harder to break camping. I think it can be done. If you don't think it can be done i think you gave up Brawl a little too easily.
 

Gill

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Also. shielding, rolling, and sidestepping are proving to be extremely effective (mostly shielding). Most people cry "the game has only been out for a short while!" As if some anti-defense technique is gonna be discovered. This doesn't hold water. Every character has those three abilities, meaning in literally every match fought, each character is dealing with trying to counter these three techniques. Yet nothing, no powerful offensive technique has come up (other than LOL MINDGAMES) to counter these.

An average player can shield more, throw in sidesteps, and instantly become more of a challenge for professional players.

DON'T YOU SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

You're right. The game has only been out for a couple of months. But what the **** do you think matches are gonna look like when people MASTER shielding, dodging, and sidestepping? Those players who were able to do stuff like waveshining and stuff with perfect timing are going to be able to perfect shield consistantly, they'll become invincible. The game will become way, way more broken than Melee.
 

xpyr0

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Messages
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Also. shielding, rolling, and sidestepping are proving to be extremely effective (mostly shielding).
Yea but couldn't all 3 of those techniques be countered in melee without doing something crazy like pillaring, shine combos or other crazy ****.

alot of things got cut in brawl. but did enough **** get cut so that people cant counter shielding rolling and sidestepping? last time i checked i didnt exactly need l canceling or wavedashing to break shields and rolls.

but btw melee is alot better at being competitive then brawl is so please dont tell me that cuz i kno and i agree.
 

Repryx

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Ive played melee and realized that camping is impossible to do cuz you get punished badly.
Uhh Yeah Several characters can camp in Melee. Falco, Icees, Fox (if he wants to...More of a mobile camping because of his lasers) IMO in Melee Camping was spacing yourself and your opponent(normally with projectiles) and in Brawl camping is abusing the lack of hitstun on the sheild and abusing the lack of lag and increased invincibility frames on rolls and sidesteps.

Ive also learned that playing aggressively in brawl for the most part gets you punished. But ive learned how to camp and so have my friends (which definitely isn't that hard) and have seen camping get broken. Especially with the use of reflectors, and faking out.. But as far as i can see camping is good but it can be broken. I mean is the smash community that weak to just wait for a game for like 3 years then give it up in 3 weeks. What I'm gonna do is try harder to break camping. I think it can be done. If you don't think it can be done i think you gave up Brawl a little too easily.

Camping is broken by characters who have More Auto L-cancelled moves like Peach, Metaknight, and Marth. Camping is also broken by characters with spammable moves Such as ROB, Pikachu and Olimar. Makes the game kinda shallow. As Ive said before we have gone from exploiting the GAME to expoiting SPECIFIC CHARACTERS.
 

GreatClayMonkey

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Also. shielding, rolling, and sidestepping are proving to be extremely effective (mostly shielding). Most people cry "the game has only been out for a short while!" As if some anti-defense technique is gonna be discovered. This doesn't hold water. Every character has those three abilities, meaning in literally every match fought, each character is dealing with trying to counter these three techniques. Yet nothing, no powerful offensive technique has come up (other than LOL MINDGAMES) to counter these.

An average player can shield more, throw in sidesteps, and instantly become more of a challenge for professional players.

DON'T YOU SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

You're right. The game has only been out for a couple of months. But what the **** do you think matches are gonna look like when people MASTER shielding, dodging, and sidestepping? Those players who were able to do stuff like waveshining and stuff with perfect timing are going to be able to perfect shield consistantly, they'll become invincible. The game will become way, way more broken than Melee.
I disagree people are judging this game too quickly like how do you know that something won't be discovered I mean it took people a while to find wavedashing
 

Grmo

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These are good points. It's kinda funny because I think you guys are on the same page. The whole problem is that things are just too easy. We'll be the laughing stock of other fighting game communities >_>

EDIT: to the post above me: we know this because nothing will ever change the fact that moves don't have hitstun whatsoever, so approaching is stupid and nothing can be punished.
 

Gill

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Yea but couldn't all 3 of those techniques be countered in melee without doing something crazy like pillaring, shine combos or other crazy ****.

alot of things got cut in brawl. but did enough **** get cut so that people cant counter shielding rolling and sidestepping? last time i checked i didnt exactly need l canceling or wavedashing to break shields and rolls. .
Yeah, of course they can be countered, theres always human error. I'm talking about the competitive scene though, so very, very high levels of play. I think the matches are gonna turn really long and drawn out, with a successful attack landing once every two minutes or so.

Mind you, I'm nowhere near a professional level, I'm going off of what I've heard from both sides.

I disagree people are judging this game too quickly like how do you know that something won't be discovered I mean it took people a while to find wavedashing
...Have you read anything I or anyone else have said so far?
 

xpyr0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
16
yea i kno im a huge noob but so i can understand the argument better can someone please tell me what hitsun means? sorry :urg: lol
 

GreatClayMonkey

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Rigging the enemy base with explosives, which is l
These are good points. It's kinda funny because I think you guys are on the same page. The whole problem is that things are just too easy. We'll be the laughing stock of other fighting game communities >_>

EDIT: to the post above me: we know this because nothing will ever change the fact that moves don't have hitstun whatsoever, so approaching is stupid and nothing can be punished.
That may be true but people are missing the fact that this isn't melee so you have to play differently than melee and therefore discover new strategies. This will happen over tie not one month.
 
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