• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Brawl will have backwards progression (which is a bad thing)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
^^There reffering to how long a character is unable to do anything after being hit. It is an essential part of combos in general because it is exactly what allows you to link one move to another. Thus with reduced hitstun it's not possible to actually combo, and instead you have to trick your opponent into getting hit again. The problem is that with the new airdodging system, that will happen less and less as people figure out that there is no punishiment for airdodging while DIing away from your attacks. The attacker simply can't keep up and thus the playing field is reset after each hit, with the defender having the advantage.

edit to post above me: We are playing brawl differently. Brawl strategy revolves around camping and defensive play, because it has no counter (not even a theoretical counter) and thus is the best strategy in the game. Why approach when I can just spam projectiles, take one hit when you successfully get past all that, and then run away to resume spamming? You're not going to get more than one hit when you approach, but when you camp you could easily get 5 or 6 just by throwing out a million projectiles.

Too bad only a few characters are really good at this and in general have an advantage over most of the cast (Zomg, I though brawl was balanced!!). Sure you have to be good at close range combat too, but only good enough to succesfully run away and re-establish your camping position. A smart Pit player can completely decimate a player with very little effort or practice.
 

xpyr0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
16
ugh see im trying to argue this game can be played competitively when people say stuff like this isn't melee that hinders my argument because its not a real good one. if we want to prove that this game can be played competitively we can't say "its not melee 2.0" it makes us look stupid. speaking of me being stupid, wat the hell is hitsun danmit. lol
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
1,846
Location
Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
ugh see im trying to argue this game can be played competitively when people say stuff like this isn't melee that hinders my argument because its not a real good one. if we want to prove that this game can be played competitively we can't say "its not melee 2.0" it makes us look stupid. speaking of me being stupid, wat the hell is hitsun danmit. lol

Try reading the post above yours.
 

Gill

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
229
Location
New York
That may be true but people are missing the fact that this isn't melee so you have to play differently than melee and therefore discover new strategies. This will happen over tie not one month.
No. Strategies are not what we need. Only another raw technique could really counter it.

Most people would say grabbing. Grabbing doesn't do much really, against a decent opponent grabbing doesnt even let you follow up with a hit.

Also, you can't say in one breath

Brawl is a new game. You can't compare it to Melee.
and then say in another

Look how long it took to discover X in Melee. You have to give Brawl time for techniques to be discovered.
Thats a total contradiction. Sakurai did everything he could to take away abusive offensive techniques. Theres no reason to think theres a bevy of techs just waiting to be unearthed. He saw how bad he ****ed up with Melee, he definitely made **** sure it wouldn't happen again.
 

xpyr0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
16
so say brawl can't be played competitively, what are you guys gonna do? go back to melee? or just go to another game in general? cuz if thats true wont smash brothers as a competitive game just die out? dont flip out on me please but im jw'n
 

Thino

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2006
Messages
4,845
Location
Mountain View, CA
yea i kno im a huge noob but so i can understand the argument better can someone please tell me what hitsun means? sorry :urg: lol
hitstun is a state when your character cant do anything no matter what button you press , occurs when you get hit and its duration depends on the move used (you get less hitstun from a jab than from a falcon punch for example).
Im sure you know it , you just didnt know the name

edit: oops this thread is going fast I didnt see it has already been replied
 

Gill

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
229
Location
New York
so say brawl can't be played competitively, what are you guys gonna do? go back to melee? or just go to another game in general? cuz if thats true wont smash brothers as a competitive game just die out? dont flip out on me please but im jw'n
Personally, I loved melee, I got it soon after it came out, got bored, and then discovered the whole new metagame and tons of new techniques and I was so behind I never bothered to catch up. I'm intending to not be left behind this time with Brawl. If the metagame does dissolve into unfun spacing, shielding, campfests though, I'll simply remain a very casual player.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
In melee, you had to think every time you got hit or delivered one. Everytime your opponent landed on the ground, you'd have to think. There's not much point in chasing opponents in brawl because, thanks to the advanced defensive system, they'll most likely be getting away from you.


Brawl is a much safer game than melee is. By that I mean the pressure game is nonexistant. Pressure spacing is a waste of time because you'll hardly get anything off it. What you described in that paragraph sounds more like Melee IMO.
Nope. I'm talking about Brawl. If Brawl was as simple as you try to make it then join a major tournament and win. Not that hard, right? Let's face it. I said that you had to think quickly in Melee and think hard. Thinking hard means.. well, thinking hard. Spacing is VERY important when camping or trying to break a camper. Brawl is safer? Not reall, if someone is good at camping and you're not. Chances are you're already dead before the match began. In Melee it was the same thing. Can't think as fast as your opponent or react as quickly? You're dead. It's just two different play styles.

Brawl is just safer when it comes to noobs facing off with noobs but then the same can be said for Melee. I play Brawl competitively so I know it's not as simple as you make it sound. Boring to most? Sure, that argument holds weight but not "simple." As I pointed out before. My friends tried to camp me by mimicing what I did. They don't succeed. I can three stock each of them. So skill does prevail in Brawl just as it did in Melee. If you're camping the goal is to not allow them to move you. The objective is to be like a rock and still able to harm your opponents. You had to figure out what they were planning to do and counter it. If they got to you. You had to be able to knock them away, kill them, or throw them back so you can continue camping.

Your opponent if they're being outcamped doesn't WANT you to keep camping. Therefore they try to stop you. If they're able to move you. You're not that good of a camper. A good camper doesn't allow his opponent to move them and continues to punish them severely. You're barking up the wrong tree with the "Melee you have to think" bit because I already know that Melee takes skill. I know that Melee requires quick thinking skills, high reflexes, quick reaction speed, and the ability to think under pressure. In Brawl there's pressure too. If you're sitting there. Shielding, dodging, and evading everything while keeping your opponent away from you.. and he sees that you're still at 0% and he's at 115% do you think he's not feeling pressured?

As the opponent racks up damage percent he begins to lose it more and more. His attempts become more predictable. Everything becomes more desperate. That's called.. pressure. Brawl can be played competitively. Most don't like it. I played Melee competitively which is why you haven't heard me complaining about how "cheap fox is" or how "melee is all about death combos." I'm speaking from experience. Not just out of my ***.
 

Pye

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
496
Location
Montreal. PM me if you're on the island! I need op
alright im saying this. if all the people in the world who play this game competitively say camping is the best thing to do fine. you won. are you happy? camping is the best. But my question is can't anyone find a way around camping? I mean this game isn't THAT shallow.
Yes, it is. That's the argument the competitive community is making. Right now, there is absolutely no way into a good camper, especially characters seemingly build to camp, such as Toon Link (SH double arrows that autocancel? Come on) and Pit (High damage, light-speed guidable arrows. Interesting).

Can we find a way around camping? Perhaps. But the odds are very much against that. As many people on this forum have been playing Smash games for a very long time, you get a sense for this kind of thing.

Step back and look at Brawl for a second, maybe you'll see why. The shield is now absolutely godlike. You can drop it in 1 or 2 frames and counter with almost any move you have pretty safely. If you perfect shielded, you're free to do anything to your opponent, including countering a jab with a smash, and perfect shielding is not that hard.

Next, factor in that grabs are nearly completely useless, in general. Grabs have next to no hitstun in Brawl, and with very few exceptions, are impossible to follow up with anything. If you try, worst case, you get punished, best case, your opponent escapes. Plus, without JC grabs, dash grabs are pretty laggy, and can be punished nicely. So why should I grab? It's a manoever that puts me at risk for the benefit of doing 2% to my opponent.

Third, realize that there's no hitstun in Brawl on attacks (not enough to follow up, anyway). Combos are next to non-existant, and those that do exist do not go beyond 2 hits. There isn't much more to say about this, this is simply stating a fact

Now, combine those three things into one game. That's Brawl. All characters have amazing shield play, but the counter to shields intended by the game (grabbing) is now completely useless. As a result, approach is like trying to walk towards a yeti through a blizzard: you're getting pummeled by projectiles as you move toward your opponent, and once you do get to him/her, they're in such an advantageous position, there's nothing you can do to them. If you do decide to grab them, they don't care, they take the 4%, escape, and try again, which will result in you moving through that hurricane of projectiles again. Even if they make a mistake in their camping and, God forbid, get hit with an attack, oh well, there's no hitstun anyway, so they escape before you can combo and try again. They will be tacking on damage much faster than you, and landing a finisher isn't hard, now that you can smash out of your godly shield.

Note, by the way, that this argument also disproves the "Brawl is more balanced" argument often used (not that you were using it, I'm just saying). Characters with good camping games are instantly superior to characters without projectiles. The very few characters with useful grab games are instantly superior to others as well (Dedede and Falco, for example. Note that Falco also has a fantastic camping game. Hmm). Characters with attacks that eat shields well (G&W) are boosted higher above others. Characters who can effectively reflect projectiles or move through them are instantly much better (Metaknight, Pit). Note that Pit falls into 3 of these 4 categories. Scary, isn't it?

EDIT: I just say Sonic Wave's post at the top of this page and realized he said everything I say here already. I'm too slow :p

I'm not trying to predict the future. Some technique may very well be discovered that makes approaching worth it, and maybe the game will balance out and be more competitive. There are, for example, some attacks in the game that do counter shields very well (G&W's bair, for example, as mentioned above). Along with RARing, perhaps those will become the standard anti-shield instead of grabs. Re-read what I wrote up there though. By inductive argument, I feel it's a fairly safe conclusion to draw at this point that Brawl cannot be competitive.

Ive played melee and realized that camping is impossible to do cuz you get punished badly.
Not true in the slightest. Many characters could camp effectively in many ways, Falco being the most prominent example of this. I'm not going to get it for you, but go watch Forward vs Isai in the crew battle at FC Diamond if you want an example of very effective camping in Melee (it's on youtube). Camping works very well. As you can see in the video, however, it is not impenetrable, as Isai makes his way to Forward a few times, when Forward misreads Isai. However, when Forward reads Isai correctly, his camping allows him to land hits he would otherwise have been severely punished for, and he can start combos.

Ive also learned that playing aggressively in brawl for the most part gets you punished. But ive learned how to camp and so have my friends (which definitely isn't that hard) and have seen camping get broken. Especially with the use of reflectors, and faking out.. But as far as i can see camping is good but it can be broken. I mean is the smash community that weak to just wait for a game for like 3 years then give it up in 3 weeks. What I'm gonna do is try harder to break camping. I think it can be done. If you don't think it can be done i think you gave up Brawl a little too easily.
If the camping was beaten, it's because the camper wasn't good enough. I'm serious here, right now, a good camper cannot be approached, save for a few exceptions I mentioned above.

Nobody is giving up on Brawl, by the way, we're just saying it looks like the odds are against it being competitive, or at least anywhere near Melee's level. As much as I have to say against Brawl, I do like the game, and I will keep playing it.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Nope. I'm talking about Brawl. If Brawl was as simple as you try to make it then join a major tournament and win. Not that hard, right? Let's face it. I said that you had to think quickly in Melee and think hard. Thinking hard means.. well, thinking hard. Spacing is VERY important when camping or trying to break a camper. Brawl is safer? Not reall, if someone is good at camping and you're not. Chances are you're already dead before the match began. In Melee it was the same thing. Can't think as fast as your opponent or react as quickly? You're dead. It's just two different play styles.

Brawl is just safer when it comes to noobs facing off with noobs but then the same can be said for Melee. I play Brawl competitively so I know it's not as simple as you make it sound. Boring to most? Sure, that argument holds weight but not "simple." As I pointed out before. My friends tried to camp me by mimicing what I did. They don't succeed. I can three stock each of them. So skill does prevail in Brawl just as it did in Melee. If you're camping the goal is to not allow them to move you. The objective is to be like a rock and still able to harm your opponents. You had to figure out what they were planning to do and counter it. If they got to you. You had to be able to knock them away, kill them, or throw them back so you can continue camping.

Your opponent if they're being outcamped doesn't WANT you to keep camping. Therefore they try to stop you. If they're able to move you. You're not that good of a camper. A good camper doesn't allow his opponent to move them and continues to punish them severely. You're barking up the wrong tree with the "Melee you have to think" bit because I already know that Melee takes skill. I know that Melee requires quick thinking skills, high reflexes, quick reaction speed, and the ability to think under pressure. In Brawl there's pressure too. If you're sitting there. Shielding, dodging, and evading everything while keeping your opponent away from you.. and he sees that you're still at 0% and he's at 115% do you think he's not feeling pressured?

As the opponent racks up damage percent he begins to lose it more and more. His attempts become more predictable. Everything becomes more desperate. That's called.. pressure. Brawl can be played competitively. Most don't like it. I played Melee competitively which is why you haven't heard me complaining about how "cheap fox is" or how "melee is all about death combos." I'm speaking from experience. Not just out of my ***.
See, this is the problem. The camper has such an advantage, that the only way to feasibly win against anyone of nearly equal skill is to camp better than them and force them to approach. That's not how fighting games work. Offense and defense are supposed to balance each other, but in brawl defense is far superior. The incentive to approach is that you're being camped, but what you really want to do is figure out a way to out camp them so that you don't have to approach...because approaching is bad! In most respectable fighting games, approaching and being on the offense is the better position, but defense is good enough to allow you to switch to offense. The game play is offense oriented because that is the method that produces the most damage and has the greatest reward. But now, the optimal position is to be on the other side of the stage chucking stuff at them, because getting through that is much more dificult than fighting you head on (you know this is true. As soon as they get in they're suddenly doing a lot better).

Falco was the perfect example of how camping is supposed to work. He's got an effective projectile that hinders approach, but does not make it impossible. The primary uses of his lasers are to get the opponent to approach but then he's forced to fight up close for a while. It's hard for him to just keep running away, because a lot of characters are fast enough to keep up with his retreat and catch him, thus he has to switch to an offensive game once you're close to him.

Brawl made the mistake of making retreating to easy for the defensive player, by simply hindering the offensive player's approach options too much. Waveshielding was great for approaching projectile spammers, and if you could powershield consistantly then you essentially turned their spam against them. Dash dancing made your movements less predictable, so suprising the defensive player was more common and more incentive to be on the offensive too.
 

Repryx

Smash Champion
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
2,853
Location
Skyrim
^^True!
Sonic Wave FTW

Also Dont forget to mention the easier ability to spam rolls and sidesteps...People who play defensivly are harder to punish. IMO Using invincibility frames warrant some type of punishment in itself.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
See, this is the problem. The camper has such an advantage, that the only way to feasibly win against anyone of nearly equal skill is to camp better than them and force them to approach. That's not how fighting games work. Offense and defense are supposed to balance each other, but in brawl defense is far superior. The incentive to approach is that you're being camped, but what you really want to do is figure out a way to out camp them so that you don't have to approach...because approaching is bad! In most respectable fighting games, approaching and being on the offense is the better position, but defense is good enough to allow you to switch to offense. The game play is offense oriented because that is the method that produces the most damage and has the greatest reward. But now, the optimal position is to be on the other side of the stage chucking stuff at them, because getting through that is much more dificult than fighting you head on (you know this is true. As soon as they get in they're suddenly doing a lot better).

Falco was the perfect example of how camping is supposed to work. He's got an effective projectile that hinders approach, but does not make it impossible. The primary uses of his lasers are to get the opponent to approach but then he's forced to fight up close for a while. It's hard for him to just keep running away, because a lot of characters are fast enough to keep up with his retreat and catch him, thus he has to switch to an offensive game once you're close to him.

Brawl made the mistake of making retreating to easy for the defensive player, by simply hindering the offensive player's approach options too much. Waveshielding was great for approaching projectile spammers, and if you could powershield consistantly then you essentially turned their spam against them. Dash dancing made your movements less predictable, so suprising the defensive player was more common and more incentive to be on the offensive too.
I agree with most of this. In my previous posts I have stated that I understand fully why so many melee players are mad. It's not that they lost their advanced techniques but more that Brawl has more in common with chess than Melee. What I mean by this is that patience/defense is key. The goal is to force your opponent into a position where you know all of his options and prevent him from using them. It's not like a fighter game at all except that you hit buttons for moves. Other than this there's nothing else in common. I get that but despite this I still have fun playing Brawl competitively. This is why I don't consider it superior to Melee and why I feel for the loyal fanbase that was expecting a fighter instead of a chess match with a fighter twist.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
^^I like chess, but one thing people don't realize is...that you can be aggressive in chess too! Chess is not all about defense. Patience and defense are two completely different things that get grouped together far too often. Patience is simply waiting for an opportunity to attack on not getting frustrated while waiting. You can be patient while you're on the offense too! You can be wailing on the opponent, while still actively looking for that fatal mistake to finish them. You can bethe attacker. That's the kind of patience that most fighters present, and it's much more thought provoking than people give credit for.

Though I suppose now we really are just arguing playstyle preferences, I just don't like how brawl favors one playstyle over all others. Melee was more balanced in that regard, and I think that's an important area to be balanced in.
 

furyberserk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
89
What I dislike about Brawl that prooves Gimpyfish's statement that Brawl is going into a backwards progression is that it is completely not like melee. In melee, about 2-4 years of it creation and release, people have been discovering new and better techniques that work well together. But now in Brawl, people already disliked it and directly, set off to find advanced techs that will allow them to like and appreciate it more. The phrase "fun for everyone" which was stated at the E3 promo of SSBB was taken to me as an offensive act of making the game better. By that I mean that the game becomes better for who ever gets it from the start to finish and that everyone will have to start from the beginning so one other person is able to really get angery at a loss, though it should be anticipated.

Because of the look for advanced techs already after its 3 week release, prooves that people are disliking the game in a way and wants to make it better instead of having their fun with what they can before discoving the techs. The tech Arial canceling seems like a more replacement of L-canceling because you have no lag after the attacks, and can dash as soon as you land. This adds to the fact that you will need to develop more skill to replace the L-canceling and make better decissions on what attacks you should do at any given moment in the game. For example, I usually L-cancel'd Links dair in Melee after missing on perpose give my opponent the belief that he was going to be able to catch me, but instead I grab. In Brawl that will be completely eliminated and the mindgames will increase if you want a competetive gameplay experience. Z-canceling(SSB), to L-canceling(SSBM), and now arial canceling(SSB, SSBM, SSBB mostly) which are the offsprings to an experienced melee player.

The fact that people are finding techs now means that they are having trouble with the game, in techs they already knew, habits from the past, learning new game mechanics like timing, and best comeback techniques that would be used. Players are being forced to play with a more obvious mind in mindgames than in pure tech skill. Common sense will increase, but if you have to rely mostly on mindgames than skill, then competitive play will obviously decrease.

Skill and mindgames must be equal to make the best out of Smash...at least in my opinion. Sorry if I made this too long and boring for anyone to read or really care about.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
^^I like chess, but one thing people don't realize is...that you can be aggressive in chess too! Chess is not all about defense. Patience and defense are two completely different things that get grouped together far too often. Patience is simply waiting for an opportunity to attack on not getting frustrated while waiting. You can be patient while you're on the offense too! You can be wailing on the opponent, while still actively looking for that fatal mistake to finish them. You can bethe attacker. That's the kind of patience that most fighters present, and it's much more thought provoking than people give credit for.

Though I suppose now we really are just arguing playstyle preferences, I just don't like how brawl favors one playstyle over all others. Melee was more balanced in that regard, and I think that's an important area to be balanced in.
You can be aggressive in chess but have you played competitively? If you have you'll know that the best setups are very defensive. Sure, I can be aggressive and best certain opponents within a few moves but those people aren't very good at the game. Normally when you're aggressive you're put at a disadvantage. To discourage two players from turtling for an eternity chess matches are timed. To make people think quickly and actually react. If there was no time believe me. Chess matches would go on forever between two very skilled people.

The rest I agree with you on. I also agree that it should have been more balanced instead of favoring one playstyle. You're right. This is an argument over preferences but that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to show people that no matter how much they consider Brawl flawed, un-competitive, etc there's plenty of people that don't think that and love the game for what it is but still also enjoy the competitive aspect of brawl.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
You can be aggressive in chess but have you played competitively? If you have you'll know that the best setups are very defensive. Sure, I can be aggressive and best certain opponents within a few moves but those people aren't very good at the game. Normally when you're aggressive you're put at a disadvantage. To discourage two players from turtling for an eternity chess matches are timed. To make people think quickly and actually react. If there was no time believe me. Chess matches would go on forever between two very skilled people.
Frank Marshall is hardly a bad chess player. He was only the U.S. champion for 26 years.:laugh:
You really can be an agressive chess player and do very well, it's just a little bit harder and you have to look at the game from a different perspective. Your object is to pin the king, not neccesarily the other pieces on the board. Chess doesn't have to be a war of attrition like so many people make it out to be.

But I digress. Those who like defensive playstyles in general will probably like brawl a lot more than those who favor agressive styles of play. I'm sure some people will work hard to pull of playing agressively in brawl as well, if not for the simple reason that brawl is the more popular game and they want to play against people.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
This has been bugging me for a while.

You don't say backwards progression, much in the same way you don't say downwards ascent.

You say regression.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
Frank Marshall is hardly a bad chess player. He was only the U.S. champion for 26 years.:laugh:
You really can be an agressive chess player and do very well, it's just a little bit harder and you have to look at the game from a different perspective. Your object is to pin the king, not neccesarily the other pieces on the board. Chess doesn't have to be a war of attrition like so many people make it out to be.

But I digress. Those who like defensive playstyles in general will probably like brawl a lot more than those who favor agressive styles of play. I'm sure some people will work hard to pull of playing agressively in brawl as well, if not for the simple reason that brawl is the more popular game and they want to play against people.
Yeah, I understand that he can be aggressive but he's on a different playing field. As I pointed out before in my posts. My friends can try to camp but I can force them to move or even kill them by being aggressive. It's because I'm so much better than they are. It's a lot like Frank. He's so much better than just about anyone that he can win by being defensive or aggressive. He's on a completely different playing field. The point is defense provides the biggest advantage in chess. Unless you're so much better than your opponent that you can out think them even by being aggressive. I'm sure one day we'll see someone that good in brawl. That can manage to dominate even a camping pro.

Even though I can dominate my friends when they try to camp I would never try that in a tournament setting. I'm not confident that my tactics would work against a highly skilled camper. My best bet is besting them with a better defense than theirs. I don't think that we're really arguing btw. We pretty much agree on many points. You even agreed that someone might find a way to make aggressiveness work. You also agreed that defensive people would still love competitive Brawl. Debating with you is fun because you don't name call and you use logic. :)
 

vonfinell

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
165
Location
Poised for a Zerg Rush on your Base
I'm not going to disagree with you Gimpy, I'm just going to say that it's still too early in the life of the game to be able to tell. People are forgetting that it took years before Melee was fully opened with shenanigans like wavedashing and the like, and so we need to be patient for a good competitive game for Brawl to develop. Most of the best players are still trying to discover their character's full abilities, or deal with the changes made to their old Melee Main (I still haven't gotten used to Sheik's gravity kick).
You may end up being right, Gimpy, but we won't know for quite some time.
 

TheTruth07

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
23
I've never really chimed in with my opinion too much over the years that I've lurked these boards, and I've never felt the need to discuss brawl vs melee, but for some reason, I feel compelled to tell my story, one hopefully that some of you can relate to.

Melee came seven or so years ago, and I was only 12 or 13 at the time, didn't have access to the internet, and had no idea about the competitive scene. BUT I did play melee for fun with friends for a long time (items on, 4 stock, every stage, etc. etc.) Eventually, I stopped playing melee... until about 3 years ago when I discovered how much the melee scene had evolved. My friends and I played melee again (and we played A LOT of melee) but this time we took the game more seriously. We were nowhere near the skill level of pros and couldnt use the ATs, but we went to locally held tournaments and often did poorly. We were left behind. When melee first came out, i was too young to realize or even care about being good, i was just having fun with it, and as i got older, I naturally got more competitive. We would continually get our ***** kicked in melee, and it would only make us want to be better. We all loved melee...

So when BRAWL came out, my friends and I were happy as hell to have a fresh start with a new game. We were older and we knew about these boards and the competitive scene. We werent going to be left behind this time. We imported the game early, played a lot before the US release, went to the official nintendo tournament in San Francisco and performed well (my friend took first place and even went to New York). We hold weekly causals, play other crews, the whole deal. We've been going to a bunch of local tourneys as well recently and we won a few of those too, and we even held a (closed) tournament of our own as well. We were actually competing. Nothing like our experiences with melee.

You'd think that we'd be loving this right now, BUT we're getting bored with Brawl already. Yes we're good, but we're not M2k, gimpy, or even koreanDJ good, so we can always play to be better, but the game IS starting to stagnate. Maybe we've been playing too much, but I dont feel compelled to be amazing at the game, and a part of that is because yes too much of something eventually makes you sick of it. BUT another part of it is the fact that many prominent (and even not so prominent) members of the boards are saying that the brawl competitive scene will quickly die out. Why should I religiously play a game that many tournament organizers believe is not viably competitive?

And I cant go back to melee because, for me, theres nothing to go back to. I wasnt that good and I wont be able to catch up, and the melee scene is hurting from Brawl's release. I'm afraid to leave Brawl too in fear of someone discovers something (anything?) that raises the level of play, but for now, Brawl is just a game and not a religion.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
I've never really chimed in with my opinion too much over the years that I've lurked these boards, and I've never felt the need to discuss brawl vs melee, but for some reason, I feel compelled to tell my story, one hopefully that some of you can relate to.

Melee came seven or so years ago, and I was only 12 or 13 at the time, didn't have access to the internet, and had no idea about the competitive scene. BUT I did play melee for fun with friends for a long time (items on, 4 stock, every stage, etc. etc.) Eventually, I stopped playing melee... until about 3 years ago when I discovered how much the melee scene had evolved. My friends and I played melee again (and we played A LOT of melee) but this time we took the game more seriously. We were nowhere near the skill level of pros and couldnt use the ATs, but we went to locally held tournaments and often did poorly. We were left behind. When melee first came out, i was too young to realize or even care about being good, i was just having fun with it, and as i got older, I naturally got more competitive. We would continually get our ***** kicked in melee, and it would only make us want to be better. We all loved melee...

So when BRAWL came out, my friends and I were happy as hell to have a fresh start with a new game. We were older and we knew about these boards and the competitive scene. We werent going to be left behind this time. We imported the game early, played a lot before the US release, went to the official nintendo tournament in San Francisco and performed well (my friend took first place and even went to New York). We hold weekly causals, play other crews, the whole deal. We've been going to a bunch of local tourneys as well recently and we won a few of those too, and we even held a (closed) tournament of our own as well. We were actually competing. Nothing like our experiences with melee.

You'd think that we'd be loving this right now, BUT we're getting bored with Brawl already. Yes we're good, but we're not M2k, gimpy, or even koreanDJ good, so we can always play to be better, but the game IS starting to stagnate. Maybe we've been playing too much, but I dont feel compelled to be amazing at the game, and a part of that is because yes too much of something eventually makes you sick of it. BUT another part of it is the fact that many prominent (and even not so prominent) members of the boards are saying that the brawl competitive scene will quickly die out. Why should I religiously play a game that many tournament organizers believe is not viably competitive?

And I cant go back to melee because, for me, theres nothing to go back to. I wasnt that good and I wont be able to catch up, and the melee scene is hurting from Brawl's release. I'm afraid to leave Brawl too in fear of someone discovers something (anything?) that raises the level of play, but for now, Brawl is just a game and not a religion.
I don't believe that it'll die out quickly. I could be wrong but there's many that play competitively and have a lot of fun. Many of the old pros don't like the new style of Brawl and find it boring. A very few of the older pros actually enjoy brawl's style. Plus there's all these newcomers. What does this mean? Not all of these newcomers are going to go away. Many are going to like it more than any other game they play. These people will search for people all over the world in order to prove they're the best or become the best. It's because of this that Brawl will continue to live.
 

xpyr0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
16
I've never really chimed in with my opinion too much over the years that I've lurked these boards, and I've never felt the need to discuss brawl vs melee, but for some reason, I feel compelled to tell my story, one hopefully that some of you can relate to.

Melee came seven or so years ago, and I was only 12 or 13 at the time, didn't have access to the internet, and had no idea about the competitive scene. BUT I did play melee for fun with friends for a long time (items on, 4 stock, every stage, etc. etc.) Eventually, I stopped playing melee... until about 3 years ago when I discovered how much the melee scene had evolved. My friends and I played melee again (and we played A LOT of melee) but this time we took the game more seriously. We were nowhere near the skill level of pros and couldnt use the ATs, but we went to locally held tournaments and often did poorly. We were left behind. When melee first came out, i was too young to realize or even care about being good, i was just having fun with it, and as i got older, I naturally got more competitive. We would continually get our ***** kicked in melee, and it would only make us want to be better. We all loved melee...

So when BRAWL came out, my friends and I were happy as hell to have a fresh start with a new game. We were older and we knew about these boards and the competitive scene. We werent going to be left behind this time. We imported the game early, played a lot before the US release, went to the official nintendo tournament in San Francisco and performed well (my friend took first place and even went to New York). We hold weekly causals, play other crews, the whole deal. We've been going to a bunch of local tourneys as well recently and we won a few of those too, and we even held a (closed) tournament of our own as well. We were actually competing. Nothing like our experiences with melee.

You'd think that we'd be loving this right now, BUT we're getting bored with Brawl already. Yes we're good, but we're not M2k, gimpy, or even koreanDJ good, so we can always play to be better, but the game IS starting to stagnate. Maybe we've been playing too much, but I dont feel compelled to be amazing at the game, and a part of that is because yes too much of something eventually makes you sick of it. BUT another part of it is the fact that many prominent (and even not so prominent) members of the boards are saying that the brawl competitive scene will quickly die out. Why should I religiously play a game that many tournament organizers believe is not viably competitive?

And I cant go back to melee because, for me, theres nothing to go back to. I wasnt that good and I wont be able to catch up, and the melee scene is hurting from Brawl's release. I'm afraid to leave Brawl too in fear of someone discovers something (anything?) that raises the level of play, but for now, Brawl is just a game and not a religion.
That is exactly how i feel 100 percent. I was decent at melee even with the advance **** but sadly for me its impossible to go back. No one i know places it with AT except like 2 kids. The 10 of my friends who were horrible at melee love playing brawl, and i also fear that something new could develop and id be left in the dust. I also cant go back to melee because playing brawl religiously for about a month made the physics in melee way to awkward. I can still do ATs but its twice as hard now that im not used to it. And even if i went into training mode and practiced for a month who am i gonna play melee with? Level 9 computers? Plus, if i ever got as good as i used to be id still need a good 5 months of playing with other people constantly to be on a competitive level which just isnt gonna happen. And wow im really stretching it but lets say that does happen. Then what am i gonna do, go to all those local melee tournaments there holding all over the place?. Sadly, there wont be any.....

Alot of people are like this. So i really don't think the Melee scene is gonna make a comeback at all.

Gimpy's post is right. Brawl is competitive but in such a bad way that it mite as well not be competitive. The Brawl competitive scene is sinking real fast. and because of Brawl existing in the first place, so is the Melee scene. So now wat? What do i do? Play another game? Cuz thats how its looking....
 

MarthSephirothfan

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
35
Location
Xtown, XState/Province/Territory
This topic is a complete joke. People are still just pissed because Sakurai prudently rid the game of wavedashing and other glitches that separated the gap between beginners and "pros." He wanted to make this game as accessible as possible.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
This topic is a complete joke. People are still just pissed because Sakurai prudently rid the game of wavedashing and other glitches that separated the gap between beginners and "pros." He wanted to make this game as accessible as possible.
So would you like it if we took any sport and made it "as accessible as possible" so that professional players of that sport are brought down to the same skill level as any joe off the street?

Honestly, that's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. All Sakurai (and people like you) are doing is saying it's okay to not want to work at getting better.
 

xpyr0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
16
This topic is a complete joke. People are still just pissed because Sakurai prudently rid the game of wavedashing and other glitches that separated the gap between beginners and "pros." He wanted to make this game as accessible as possible.
yea he also made spamming projectiles and camping 10 times better then it ever should be. and you cant really talk about this. go and play ur game. pick up camping and see the struggle your opponent goes through to get around it. also take note on how quickly you learn camping.
then have your friend camp and see how the only way to stop it is to counter camp.

i argued against this at one point, then i saw it for myself. i really hope someone invents a SOLID way around good defense but it doesn't look it. and how can a game become competitive when the person playing the game for 3 years and the person playing the game for 3 months are at the same skill level. who knows if this is gonna happen but it really looks like it will.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
So would you like it if we took any sport and made it "as accessible as possible" so that professional players of that sport are brought down to the same skill level as any joe off the street?

Honestly, that's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. All Sakurai (and people like you) are doing is saying it's okay to not want to work at getting better.
Except the fact that pros on Brawl can't be taken down by regular joes.
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Brawl is competitive and takes skill. It's just a boring old drag compared to Melee which is much more engaging and satisfying.

Side story: Today I got my friend which is a mega Brawl enthusiast to play a few games of Melee. What we realized was that each match was different compared to Brawl in which we followed the same basic strategy. In Melee, we strung together many combos, we had many edge battles, and we had three or four lol moments (you get these every time you play Smash) where I accidently killed his recovering Sheik with an u-tilt at the end of her recovery. We really had a blast exchaning our moves!

When we went to play Brawl, we started with Boss Battles and All-Star. It was pretty fun (even though it is noticably less intense). When we got to VS however, we started to get extremely bored. We lasted about 45mins in that mode before we went to play another game (Halo 3).

The point is that Melee and Brawl might be equally competitive, well, I should say assuming Melee and Brawl are equally competitive, Brawl is still a heck of a lot more boring than Melee. If you'd rather have Mega Blocks than Lego, go ahead. If you'd rather have a Pokemon Pearl, go ahead. If you'd rather have Arby's, go right ahead!
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
This topic is a complete joke. People are still just pissed because Sakurai prudently rid the game of wavedashing and other glitches that separated the gap between beginners and "pros." He wanted to make this game as accessible as possible.
Look at people's post counts and try to educate them a bit. This guy probably knows nothing of competitive Melee and thinks that all tourneys are played on Final D with Fox, and every move is out of a wavedash :p.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
Except the fact that pros on Brawl can't be taken down by regular joes.
Very true. Any decent Melee veteran still has the advantage of experience and perhaps increased motor skills over a random person who decides to play Brawl.

But that's beside the point. The gap between hard-working players and casual players has been lessened by Brawl when it shouldn't have been.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
Very true. Any decent Melee veteran still has the advantage of experience and perhaps increased motor skills over a random person who decides to play Brawl.

But that's beside the point. The gap between hard-working players and casual players has been lessened by Brawl when it shouldn't have been.
I see this a lot but I just don't know. Maybe my friends are just extremely bad at the game? I can three stock any of them. I'm not really calling you a liar. There is a chance that they're just really bad. Unless our definition of casual is different.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
I see this a lot but I just don't know. Maybe my friends are just extremely bad at the game? I can three stock any of them. I'm not really calling you a liar. There is a chance that they're just really bad. Unless our definition of casual is different.
Lol, well I don't have too many casuals on my FC list, nor have I played any at the tournaments I go to. The roughest sketch of a Brawl casual I've played so far is my little brother and my friends siblings.

But still, it's undeniable that Sakurai's intentions were to lessen the skill gap, and it shows.
 

xpyr0

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
16
i think you can simply put it like this. camping takes a little skill. combos take alot of skill. brawl is all about camping which doesnt take much skill. melee takes combos which takes alot of skill. seriously though you can argue that camping takes skill till your blue in the face. but can you really look at urself in a mirror and say "i camp and it took me so much hardwork to get as good as i am at camping"? i cant. everytime i camp and win i feel like a cheap piece of crap. if i camped in other fighting games were it actually took alot of skill i prolly would be tho. and you can only be soo good at camping. soo idk it just doesnt seem worth it to me.
 

Drazon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
59
Location
Syracuse
Except people aren't morally driven. It's completely satisfactory for them to camp an entire match and then walking away with a smile and telling themselves they're better than everyone simply because the couldn't beat your G0dly "skillz".

This is not Bushido. Winning is winning to the masses, even if it invokes camping.
It's our job, as people who respect hard thinking and practice, to frown down upon such QQers.
 

Gluttony

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
70
Lol, well I don't have too many casuals on my FC list, nor have I played any at the tournaments I go to. The roughest sketch of a Brawl casual I've played so far is my little brother and my friends siblings.

But still, it's undeniable that Sakurai's intentions were to lessen the skill gap, and it shows.
Ah, okay. I was seriously curious that's all. Yeah, I understand what you mean by lowering the skill gap. It's because since the game is so defense/camping oriented. A skilled player that's not as good as a professional player will still occasionally inflict damage to the professional. Maybe even brimg the pro to 50% before losing his first stock. Whereas in melee the skilled player wouldn't get in any hits at all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom