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Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

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Revven

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What? Their running speed is the exact same it always has been since like... 3.0 and earlier, there's no "framerate" difference.

Also, using Dantarion's code isn't very tournament friendly, people new to the game wouldn't understand why you have to hold a button to get the stage that's allowed for the tourney. I say, if you want to use Dant's code, it's for your own doing and needs, it doesn't belong in the official set though.
 

GHNeko

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That's not what I meant by slower. What I mean is the actual frame rate of the gameplay (not moves) its self like captain falcon running sonic running etc. The killing is defenitly faster Ill admit that. I understand about the boundary thing. It just seems to me atleast the Frame rate of the actual game is slower than it was from 5.0 and 6.0. Keep in mind I'm not talking about characters movesets. I mean again their running speed.
We have absolutely no power over the FPS of the game and dash speeds were not altered in anyway.

:|

EDIT: WBR 3 HIT COMBO. K.O
 

Wavebuster

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So, is too powerful to allow Sheik/Zelda to transform into Zelda/Sheik mid-stock? Should it be restricted to between stocks only? That is the only thing to discuss. If Ryoko's fix is settled on, we can also discuss how long the pre-transformation punishment window should be.
I don't really know what this is about anymore.
SD loaders do not make load times static x 9,001
Why are some people not noting this? If load times weren't a cruel mistress, even *with* SD loaders, Transform would not have needed any major adjustments.

Say that, against Jiggs, you really need to get a Transform off. The load time decides to work against you and Jiggs can easily reach you with Rollout (or worse, a Rest). Does it suddenly become the player's fault for daring to DownB which would have been safe under better hardware conditions? This isn't the 9 hammer we're talking about here.

The modified Transform was long enough to be a challenge to use in 2v2 play. In either case of 1v1 and 2v2, people tended to stop caring about the "offensive advantage" of it once they realized how much time they actually had to slap her out of it if she didn't have the opening for it, or just didn't sit in front of her expecting to get a punish off the other half's entrance like a sillyhead. It was plenty long then.

The modified Transform was the best solution there was to the "Transform problem" short of making a Melee Transform that would involve a coding overhaul that isn't feasible now. Since load times through SD loaders are not static (one more time), going back to the normal Transform mechanic in any form is potentially opening several cans of worms.
 

Suic

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Also, using Dantarion's code isn't very tournament friendly, people new to the game wouldn't understand why you have to hold a button to get the stage that's allowed for the tourney. I say, if you want to use Dant's code, it's for your own doing and needs, it doesn't belong in the official set though.
You misunderstood me a little there. The tournament valid version of the stage would be default (read no buttons held) while the original non-balanced version would require holding a button(s).
 

Isatis

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Bionic, option 5 in the updater for "knock it off with the cosmetic changes" is giving me cosmetic changes again.
Also, knock it off with the cosmetic changes. Lucky I always backup my SD before running stuff like that on it, because you would have just trashed my common5. Again.

Edit: While I'm here, what all inside final destination did you change? I'd like to keep my custom model in there but I'm not sure if you've changed more than the collisions.
If you have the 6.0 updater, it will download everything, no matter what option. If you downloaded the updater for 7.0 (like it was emphasized on the site)...it won't download the textures or anything.
 

Rikana

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Anyone have the .pacs and .gct of 6.0? I still need them to record a match before I delete the replay. :<
 

ds22

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I want to mention a oddity I encounter playing the most recent codeset.
Whenever I brawl VS. the CPU and knock the CPU of the stage, it will rather let himself fall into death instead of performing a Up-B.
 

NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT

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omg just played... the ledge grab thingy is super danm good!!! this will help alot the balance between matches and all ^^ and rf+ is such a nice stage ^^

EDIT:

summit+ is not the most updated version I see, the plattaforms are slippery and the upper boudry is way to high

I'll download it from the competitive stage hacking hub

Awsome job guys ^^
 

The_Guide

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I want to mention a oddity I encounter playing the most recent codeset.
Whenever I brawl VS. the CPU and knock the CPU of the stage, it will rather let himself fall into death instead of performing a Up-B.
The No Airdodge during tumble code is causing this. Yeroc posted a fix about two pages back.

Just to let you know, he just told us how to fix the line that was causing the problems; you'll have to manually change that code in the text, and make a gct yourself.

He also said that another minor release will be coming soon, with the fixed code in it, so you could just wait for that.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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i used the updater on homebrew and now whenever i go to select a stage my game freezes. It works whenever i only use random to select a stage what could be causing this and how do i fix it?
 

FrozenHobo

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summit+ is not the most updated version I see, the plattaforms are slippery and the upper boudry is way to high

I'll download it from the competitive stage hacking hub
yeah, i just brought this up in the irc before i saw this post. its been brought to the attention of the wbr and will be fixed soon... and if not i can just post a link.
 

iLink

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i used the updater on homebrew and now whenever i go to select a stage my game freezes. It works whenever i only use random to select a stage what could be causing this and how do i fix it?
If there's a file in your st folder, delete it. I don't remember the name of the file but it starts with an s and has the word exploit in there somewhere.


Am I the only one finding themselves random losing their second jump?
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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If there's a file in your st folder, delete it. I don't remember the name of the file but it starts with an s and has the word exploit in there somewhere.
i looked the only thing i have in the st folder is a file called st_080805_0933.bin should i delete this?
 

ds22

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The No Airdodge during tumble code is causing this. Yeroc posted a fix about two pages back.

Just to let you know, he just told us how to fix the line that was causing the problems; you'll have to manually change that code in the text, and make a gct yourself.

He also said that another minor release will be coming soon, with the fixed code in it, so you could just wait for that.
Thank you for telling.
 

Matteron

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Does anyone know what the st_custom1.rel is does?
I know what it is supposed to do(let's you load and extra stage in a new spot), but the codes are not in the gct and nothing appears on my SSS
 

Yeroc

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The GCT for no-homebrew is the same as default, with the Disable Custom Stages code.

Ok, the reasoning behind Zelda. First, foremost, and above all else, the biggest consideration in my mind is mitigating the stupid, stupid loading queue and making the move have, ideally, a constant duration. It solidifies risk when using the move, allows you to make snap decisions about transforming because you know how long the move is going to take. I'm fully aware of the mechanics behind ryoko's change, and slowing the startup animation so that the total duration outside of the actual transform load is the same, but moving the point where it goes into transform. I think, quite frankly, that it looks like ***. Furthermore, I think it's a sloppy direction in which to take the entire dynamic of the move, because it tries to negate the impact of this undesirable trait (a nonstatic load time) instead of remove it entirely. I understand how it works. The dangerous period is both constant and contained in a single animation, and the negative part concerning the actual transform is no longer important because as soon as it's finished the move is over. I don't like the idea. I would prefer to take the entire thing and encapsulate it as a single entity. Towards that end, SD loading is the clear path ahead. Solid state storage retrieval is exceptionally faster than optical, drastically reducing the necessary loading time. Maybe it's not the same from system to system, but on each system it's the same from instance to instance. But, I've seen you all say, that doesn't change the fact that it's not a constant speed, because of the loading queue, etc. No, at this point it isn't and most likely never will be, but it is faster, and it is better. And just based on one of your examples, I think we have an avenue of investigation to help reduce the impact of the problem further.

The way I'm looking at it is, if you take all the factors involved in doing a transform load, and convert them to solid state storage, it will decrease and largely homogenize the total time it takes to perform all those loads. What this does, apart from decreasing the total length of load time, is decrease the variation in the total duration. Say your vbrawl load time is somewhere around a second. But we've all seen the factors that can affect that. Having multiples of the same character already loaded, hitting a stage loading point, can make that total duration, or t, last anywhere from less than a quarter second to nearly 2 seconds. The variability of t, or Δt, is quite large, over 100 frames.


|-----------------| t Loading just Zelda
|--|t Zelda preloaded
|-------------------------------------| t Loading Lylat plus Zelda
....|--------------| Δt Zelda only
....|----------------------------------| Δt plus outside factors

However, if we Take the Zelda files and put them on the SD card, the time required to load them is changed drastically.

|----| t Loading just Zelda
|--| t Zelda preloaded
|-----------------------| t Loading Lylat plus Zelda
....|-| Δt Zelda only
....|--------------------| Δt plus outside factors

While my diagrams are not to scale, you can see that just by putting Zelda files on the SD card, you can drastically cut down on both the total amount of loading time as well as the load time variance. In other words, Δt becomes relatively small. Using texture files, and maybe motionetc pacs, to reduce the t, and thereby Δt, of transforms is going to be part of the way the transforms are handled. This is not up for discussion. The idea I had last night was to investigate the other events that get dumped in the loading queue and mess with transform time. You all gave me the biggest perpetrator already: Lylat cruise. That stage is really 5 pacs in one. We can put them all on the SD card and all but eliminate the potential for variance on that stage entirely:

|----| t Loading just Zelda
|--| t Zelda preloaded
|-------| t Loading Lylat plus Zelda
....|-| Δt Zelda only
....|----| Δt plus outside factors

This would substantially cut down on just about all of the potential for variance in the transform time. What we can then do is search out other potential speed bumps in the loading queue and work out if they can be similarly transferred. I'm going to make a logical leap here, so bear with me, but for the rest of this post I'm going to assume the invulnerable loading period is static, or as close to static as we can possibly make it, and therefore, based on what I've demonstrated here, able to be regarded as a fixed amount of time.

If the amount of time it takes to load Zelda is constant, then the only factors left to consider are the (approximate) total duration of the transform animation and the animation appearance. When you assume a near-constant transform time, then shifting the placement of the load event is no longer necessary. It all becomes part of the total animation duration. It can then be relied upon in making the decision of whether to transform, at any point in the match. Between stocks, defensively, offensively, whatever.

tl;dr - Go back and ****ing read it. Even if SD loads aren't truly static, moving enough files to the SD card should cut down on so much of the load time variance that it's close enough to be considered so, which completely negates the need for an animation tweak.
 

DotheDiddyMonkeyDance

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Hmmmm. after watch some vids on youtube of 7.0 I was wrong and I shall tell my friends also. I think something might not of transfered over right maybe since I just copy and pasted everything from the manual dl file for the SD card.

A few questions

Just a question though I thought you guys were talking about fixing something for diddy kongs upB as a return? did you guys fix it or am I just not noticing anything different about it. Don't get me wrong I love diddy kong as a character just when you try to angle his ^B ever since I started playing B+ its been a P.I.T.A.

On a second note I noticed that Lucario still can't grab the ledge with his ^B which I'm sure was intentional but why can others grab it (I understand for the not snapping from the bottom) to the ledge espically when doing the move sideways?(IE Fox,Falco, Zelda, Wolf.) He hits the ledge doesn't stick even just falls to his death. Just figured I would ask.

Also thanks for clearing up the movement speed thing for me guys. I'll adapt to 7.0
 

Wind Owl

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@Yeroc

Your entire argument seems to be "I think the more functional way is ugly, but look, the pretty way isn't so bad!"

If aesthetics are really the motivation behind this change, drop the frame speed mod and make a spinning animation or something. Seriously.

As for trying to negate the undesirable rather than remove it, yours does not remove it either. It only reduces it.
 

CountKaiser

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Slight detour from the zelda argument.

Does the wbr want the camera changes from vietgeek in the set? If so, let me know.
 

Yeroc

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But it seems very much to me that it reduces it to the point where it isn't an issue any further. I'm aware this is a subjective notion, but if it doesn't then please demonstrate where I'm mistaken.
 

Seris

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Are there plans to fix the camera in the new pork city stage?

edit - Also, I will be running bi weekly B+ tournaments for 7.0 with entry fee. Is there anyone who is going to be keeping track of the results for any reason?
 

CountKaiser

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Well, if you do post the results, could you include the characters that the people used so that we can see their placement?

Since we finally have a static set, it's about time we started talking about matchups and another topic that people have been wanting for a while now.


Tiers.
 

Wind Owl

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But it seems very much to me that it reduces it to the point where it isn't an issue any further. I'm aware this is a subjective notion, but if it doesn't then please demonstrate where I'm mistaken.
I think we should stay with Ryoko's solution (and by the way, this community is full of skilled animators, some of whom I'm sure would be willing and able to make a very nice looking charge-up animation for Transform) until we can get the game to have Zelda and Sheik loaded at all times, as it does with Ivysaur and Charizard's (I believe; I know it's two of the Pokémon) MotionEtc's, which I think will happen eventually. But until then, I feel that your "oh lol it's not even noticeable" is far uglier than Ryoko's reliable solution.

There's also the fact that you seem to have decided this by yourself and just threw it in with the rest of the changes, blindsiding all of the Z/S players.
 

Seris

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Will do. Is there any plan to open an official thread for that or should i just post them in their own for each one?
 

CountKaiser

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You mean the results?

Those can go in their own threads in the tourney results section. Just be sure to label it brawl+ somewhere in the title.
 
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As a second of Zelda and Sheik, I much prefer the new fix over the older one.

The lagless exit took far too long to transform offstage, completely negating any recovery use it could have. Transforming while high above the stage was also made unsafe against even the characters that couldn't punish it before.
I also don't see why transform times are an issue on changing stages. Wouldn't that make it a CP problem, rather than something that needs to be fixed?

All in all, the lagless exit just feels foreign, unpolished, and actually makes the move a great deal more punishable. It gives you less punishability on exit, but gives your opponent ample time to actually get to you. Worse situation, I think.
 

Wavebuster

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As a second of Zelda and Sheik, I much prefer the new fix over the older one.

The lagless exit took far too long to transform offstage, completely negating any recovery use it could have. Transforming while high above the stage was also made unsafe against even the characters that couldn't punish it before.
I also don't see why transform times are an issue on changing stages. Wouldn't that make it a CP problem, rather than something that needs to be fixed?

All in all, the lagless exit just feels foreign, unpolished, and actually makes the move a great deal more punishable. It gives you less punishability on exit, but gives your opponent ample time to actually get to you. Worse situation, I think.
Transforming offstage is actually never a safe idea because of random load time factor. You can wind up falling farther than anticipated. If you want to recover using Transform anyway, it's better to use Sheik's 2nd jump and immediately roll to Transform input. Then C-stick towards the stage so Zelda buffers a kick in that direction which allows her to get aerial momentum and can then UpB. Doing the Transform recovery correctly is the first step, hoping that it works.

Transforming high above the stage and falling downwards is again, subject to randomness and not solicited even with the default mechanic. The default mechanic allows a pursuer to just wait for you to come out of the Transform, the lagless one still puts the pursuer at a risk due to Zelda's effective aerials, and that air dodges are not quick enough to react to. By using Transform on the ground, you have access to shielding, which is possible on frame 1.

As another addendum as to why not much of this is actually true is because of the actual vulnerable times. Zelda's and Sheik's Transform times outside of loading are very slightly different, but we'll use 36 to start, 30 endlag as an average.

Normal: 36 start up -> random loading -> 30 endlag
Modified: 80 start up -> random loading -> 0 endlag
The amount of time for the enemy to actually get to you is negligibly different. The only difference is that, you will be able to Transform more often with the normal mechanic because it gets to the loading faster, but as far as actually being punished for it, it's still in favor of a lagless one. Where you get the idea that the modified one was ever more punishable except in cases where it wasn't a good idea to use to begin with is strange enough.
 

matt4300

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Well, if you do post the results, could you include the characters that the people used so that we can see their placement?

Since we finally have a static set, it's about time we started talking about matchups and another topic that people have been wanting for a while now.


Tiers.
We just had a tourney in AL with a near 7.0 set...(no one was willing to let the lucario uthrow change not be in the tourney)

Top 3...

1.ZeroGamer- Lucario
2.KoKingpin- random lol
3.Derp(zeros bro)-Lucario

Derps lucario was beaten by zeros lucario in semi finals soooo yehhh....
 
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Transforming offstage is actually never a safe idea because of random load time factor. You can wind up falling farther than anticipated. If you want to recover using Transform anyway, it's better to use Sheik's 2nd jump and immediately roll to Transform input. Then C-stick towards the stage so Zelda buffers a kick in that direction which allows her to get aerial momentum and can then UpB. Doing the Transform recovery correctly is the first step, hoping that it works.

Transforming high above the stage and falling downwards is again, subject to randomness and not solicited even with the default mechanic. The default mechanic allows a pursuer to just wait for you to come out of the Transform, the lagless one still puts the pursuer at a risk due to Zelda's effective aerials, and that air dodges are not quick enough to react to. By using Transform on the ground, you have access to shielding, which is possible on frame 1.

As another addendum as to why not much of this is actually true is because of the actual vulnerable times. Zelda's and Sheik's Transform times outside of loading are very slightly different, but we'll use 36 to start, 30 endlag as an average.

Normal: 36 start up -> random loading -> 30 endlag
Modified: 80 start up -> random loading -> 0 endlag
The amount of time for the enemy to actually get to you is negligibly different. The only difference is that, you will be able to Transform more often with the normal mechanic because it gets to the loading faster, but as far as actually being punished for it, it's still in favor of a lagless one. Where you get the idea that the modified one was ever more punishable except in cases where it wasn't a good idea to use to begin with is strange enough.
It's not really random, just inconsistent. (At least not to the point of completely destroying an otherwise safe attempt at transforming). The big factors that I've noticed cause it to load slower or faster are all predictable based on stage and opponent's character choice, again making it seem like more of a counterpick issue than a horrible weakness that needs to be fixed.
As such, don't transform when Lylat is changing and your opponent is transforming.

80 frames of lag + disc loading vs. 76 frames of lag and SD loading? Unless you were suggesting a hybrid of the two, the second option is the better one in my opinion.
 

Perfect Chaos

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80 frames of lag + disc loading vs. 76 frames of lag and SD loading? Unless you were suggesting a hybrid of the two, the second option is the better one in my opinion.
The thing is, with loading time in between two vulnerable intervals, it gives actually more time for your opponent to get to you, and charge to a Smash, or something, when you come out of the invincibility.
 

JCaesar

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Well, if you do post the results, could you include the characters that the people used so that we can see their placement?

Since we finally have a static set, it's about time we started talking about matchups and another topic that people have been wanting for a while now.


Tiers.
Actually I think it would be a good idea for someone to start a project similar to Ankoku's character rankings. It would need a thread of its own.

Does anyone want to tackle this?

80 frames of lag + disc loading vs. 76 frames of lag and SD loading? Unless you were suggesting a hybrid of the two, the second option is the better one in my opinion.
Your opinion is wrong. The modified one is not punishable after the 80 frames of lag (except by a few specific moves like Wario's bite). The default one is punishable for the entire duration, the 76 frames of lag + the random loading time (which happens to be significantly more than 4 frames unless there's another Zelda/Sheik on the stage).
 
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