Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Perfect Chaos]

I actually prefer the window for the up-air to be small. You pretty much always only need the first half of the up-air to come out to use it effectively (I've actually tried out a higher gravity tweak [at x1.43 total grav...forgot the up-grav and SH height settling,], where the up-air hitbox only comes out about 3 frames before Marth touches the ground even with perfect timing, and that one still worked pretty well), so the fact the the whole up-air doesn't come out isn't a big deal. The timing, without any buffer, is mildly difficult, but it's nothing that can't be solved with a little bit of practice (or you can just use buffer). Keeping the short-hop low is better, IMO, since this allows for a more rapid succession of aerials in general (and increasing the SH height it for the purpose of a nerf is kind of strange way to nerf a character).

 

[Orion*]

Keeping the short-hop low is better, IMO, since this allows for a more rapid succession of aerials in general (and increasing the SH height it for the purpose of a nerf is kind of strange way to nerf a character).

this is pretty much it. i just knew the character felt weird. i went to bajiscis house today and was playing and just started complaining about how he felt weird in the air, and then like 30 mins later he decides to remember the height was changed and didnt tell me XDDDD

the only reason i didnt play earlier when the update came out was due to preparing to host a irl smash tournament in NJ

 

[shanus]

this is pretty much it. i just knew the character felt weird. i went to bajiscis house today and was playing and just started complaining about how he felt weird in the air, and then like 30 mins later he decides to remember the height was changed and didnt tell me XDDDD

the only reason i didnt play earlier when the update came out was due to preparing to host a irl smash tournament in NJ

it hasnt been changed for a few weeks tho, but its easy enough to change

 

[Orion*]

it hasnt been changed for a few weeks tho, but its easy enough to change

weird X]. i probably only noticed today because i had to play a kirby (who's mad short. i have a odd nair fetish though) for an extended period of time. being able to move around more freely and throw out more mixups in the air because of the lower SH made the matchup a lot less boring x]

oh that and i noticed that. you cant really punish rollers with the back of a FF nair as well now, it takes to **** long, so it just limits options.

 

[Deleted member]

So after reading all the posts about Ness needing buffs I decided to give him a go - I played him for like 4 straight hours.

Is Ness supposed to be this broken? You can spam down-tilt so so so so so much. I did a PK Fire to a recovering Marth while spamming d-tilt and dealt literally like 115%. :/

 

[GHNeko]

So after reading all the posts about Ness needing buffs I decided to give him a go - I played him for like 4 straight hours.

Is Ness supposed to be this broken? You can spam down-tilt so so so so so much. I did a PK Fire to a recovering Marth while spamming d-tilt and dealt literally like 115%. :/

Dtilt was raised 5 degrees to prevent wall locks. :V

 

[thesage]

d-tilt doesn't even combo into jab or itself >_>;....

Same with pk fire lol. They need to learn how to di badly >_>;

 

[Deleted member]

Well, he doesn't need buffs at the moment - if people master his d-tilt damage ****. When you can do so much damage in literally 2 seconds it's hard to call "lrn2di"

 

[GHNeko]

DI Up and Away.

 

[Deleted member]

obviously - you could say the same to people in melee vs peach's d-smash. "just di it lol".. it still *****.

 

[thesage]

You're actually arguing that d-tilt is ****? It's probably one of the worst moves in the game. Go into training mode turn on the help and check to see if d-tilt -> d-tilt counts as a consecutive hit. That really should be your answer...

 

[GHNeko]

obviously - you could say the same to people in melee vs peach's d-smash. "just di it lol".. it still *****.

The thing is. Peach's Dsmash IS a combo.

Ness' Dtilt isnt. :V

 

[Orion*]

i thought ness was stll garbz... but i was using marth so im probably biased

 

[Deleted member]

The thing is. Peach's Dsmash IS a combo.

Ness' Dtilt isnt. :V

no, but the DPS it deals is ridic. im done arguing about this, either try it out for yourself or take my word for it.

 

[GHNeko]

no, but the DPS it deals is ridic. im done arguing about this, either try it out for yourself or take my word for it.

Replays/vids/supporting Data please. Because I cant really test it without a second player. :V

 

[Deleted member]

can't do that star fox. im unable to film it, although i want to. im just posting this here so others see.

 

[stingers]

Neko, you should probably try it before berating him. Maybe Ness' dtilt is really good and you just don't know because you've never tried it before?

 

[VietGeek]

You could get a replay and upload the replay file to a storage site (MediaFire, Rapidshare, etc.). I'm assuming you do have a SD reader since you do have access to Brawl+.

And we could download it and see for ourselves. That is if that's convenient for you.

 

[cman]

I noticed that a long time ago. It is rather easy to di out of (even if you super button mash by setting the controller down, and start pointer finger twitching over the button lol) DPS for the move is fantastic, but realistically, it isn't too great.

Edit- Nevermind you can't shield it in the situation you are talking about.

 

[Deleted member]

Keep in mind I only tried it against Marth...because the guy I was playing against was trying him out. So when he didn't sweetspot his recovery, I'd PK fire it and d-tilt mash out of a dash.

 

[thesage]

Marth can up-b out of pk fire...

You can shield pk fire after you take 8 damage (tested it with Snake, which was enough for me lol).

The pillar doesn't lock you in anymore after around 60 damage. It's really easy to di after 40. These numbers vary with characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth can up-b out of pk fire...

even while getting d-tilted..?

 

[GHNeko]

Neko, you should probably try it before berating him. Maybe Ness' dtilt is really good and you just don't know because you've never tried it before?

It's hard to believe that move is as great as he makes it seem when you can hold shield and Powershield it within 4 hits of Dtilt. :/

You can shield the Dtilts after PK Fire ends as well

I just tested this after finding my second controller.

AND you can still DI away. :V

Good DPS though, but the tactic is trounced by good DI. Gives ness good follow ups though.

 

[stingers]

He probably can...if Marth has even one frame that he can use Up-B, the Up-B will come out. Unless they changed it.

 

[Deleted member]

If Marth is stupid enough to up-b (Keeping in mind that this probably, most likely, assuredly works on other characters) you could spike him.

neko yes you can DI away, but when it's so fast it's difficult to really jam your stick really quickly. (thats what she said?)

 

[GHNeko]

If Marth is stupid enough to up-b (Keeping in mind that this probably, most likely, assuredly works on other characters) you could spike him.

...Into the Stage? Right?

 

[thesage]

If you're d-tilting marth the up-b will definitely hit ness...

 

[cman]

neko yes you can DI away, but when it's so fast it's difficult to really jam your stick really quickly. (thats what she said?)

QCDI works really well in that situation, and he can get out pretty quickly using it

 

[GHNeko]

If Marth is stupid enough to up-b (Keeping in mind that this probably, most likely, assuredly works on other characters) you could spike him.

neko yes you can DI away, but when it's so fast it's difficult to really jam your stick really quickly. (thats what she said?)

Really? I held teh analog stick and SDI'd with the Cstick while holding shield. I was safe in almost 2 seconds. DPS is high though. PK fire + dtilt is like 0-30something. Dtilt alone is just beh.

I see what you mean by it being good, but its not really that good. Its a slightly above par imo. Its a side effect of the angle change.

 

[Deleted member]

yea it's not broken, lol i dont know why i posted that. but seriously ness doesn't need buffs. just get creative. and btw, i have no idea how you manged to DI an attack on yourself.. how many hands do you have :/

but i'll take what i can get.. recognize the power of d-tilt

tbh though are you pressing d-tilt as fast as you can? im sure you can get more than that

 

[cman]

yea it's not broken, lol i dont know why i posted that. but seriously ness doesn't need buffs. just get creative. and btw, i have no idea how you manged to DI an attack on yourself.. how many hands do you have :/

but i'll take what i can get.. recognize the power of d-tilt

tbh though are you pressing d-tilt as fast as you can? im sure you can get more than that

What are you talking about with the hands thing?

And power wise, it's pretty good, but it's range is terrible and is really only effective when used with pk fire. Otherwise, it can catch people off guard and set up for other stuff, but... it's range is still terrible.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, he's di-ing an attack that requires you to pk-fire to dash-canceled d-tilts..how can one person do that successfully? anyway. yeah, range is bad. but maybe, just maybe, if ness mains INSIST on some sort of buff, buff d-tilts range. you increase ness's overall utility (i hate moves that have little usage) and you allow this to become an aspect of ness's metagame.

that's all he would need, imo.

 

[thesage]

If the d-tilt doesn't count as a consecutive hit it means that marth has at least 1 frame to up-b so that combo would never work unless the person was offguard or just plain bad.

D-tilt is useful for edgeguarding falco if you are good enough at timing and spacing it. pk fire -> d-tilt works if the person doesn't di out of pk fire quickly enough. I've already went over why pk fire was bad and we don't have anything we can do to help it (besides making it easy to spam which would be better than shiek's needles lol so no) until we can modify projectiles.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, he's di-ing an attack that requires you to pk-fire to dash-canceled d-tilts..how can one person do that successfully? anyway. yeah, range is bad. but maybe, just maybe, if ness mains INSIST on some sort of buff, buff d-tilts range. you increase ness's overall utility (i hate moves that have little usage) and you allow this to become an aspect of ness's metagame.

that's all he would need, imo.

Guess who found a use for the remote sideways. :V


But yea. The use is situational. Not a big deal, so moving on.

 

[shanus]

New nightly build posted, gogo tester rangers!

 

[stingers]

-Snake c4 detonation "Now" on frame 15 instead of 29

Twice as fast? Dear god...

 

[Blank Mauser]

-Snake c4 detonation "Now" on frame 15 instead of 29

Twice as fast? Dear god...

Terrorist C4's ftw. I could imagine this helping his recovery also.

I'm still waiting on the other Ivy changes. Samus' new Usmash is amazing though. Ness' fair is also pretty fun.

 

[goodoldganon]

6-10-2009
Hitbox Additions / Tweaks:
-Bowser's firebreath (from angle 55 to 75) to make it a slightly less ridiculous edgeguard
-Charizard's flamethrower (from angle 60 to 75) to make it a slightly less ridiculous edgeguard

Test these, I threw them in at the last minute. It might have actually been a buff...

-Charizards downthrow does 11 dmg from 6 damage

Zard's d-throw didn't do enough before, now it should be good. It should help his punishment game.

-D3 nair is now 50% larger

Should give D3 a better GTFO me move in the air. Also, a slight buff to his combo game.

-D3 UpB Stars (1.25x size, 60 base, no growth from 8 base and 65 growth)

With the increased speed in Brawl+ it was possible for some faster characters to punish D3 even after getting hit by the stars.

-Ganon bair increased 20% in size of his b-air and KBG 90 from 85 (now electric).

Electric is cool and different and 25% was too big.

-Ivysaur downsmash change 16KBg from 80, 70 BKB from 40, 270 angle from special 20

Should give him a good aerial setup. Ivy does well at juggling this should help. Also serves as a good edgeguard against careless, non-meteor canceling opponents.

-Luigi aerial upB changed from 72KBG to 68KBG (previous nerf had it at 60KBG)

It was just a little too strong...

-Mario uair 60º angle from 45

Should help a mediocre characters best juggle game.

-Ness fair 0 growth from 60, 45 BKB from 16, 40º from 20

F-air should always connect now...assuming the opponent doesn't SDI out of it of course...

-Samus upsmash reworked to link together better (first hitbox 50% larger)

Helps samus's anti-air game

-Sheik Fsmash h1 70 KBG, angle 15; h2 60 kbg, angle 45; h3 60 kbg, angle 90; both hits +1 damage

Sheik's F-smash should now link together properly.

-Sheik ftilt h1 64 bkb 80 kbg, angle 70; h2 32 bkb 65 kbg, angle 80

Further fine tweakings to the locks.

-Toon Links Bair is at 67º from 60º

Should help Toon Link's combo game. This was a personal favorite tweak I made, I'm interested to see the feedback. B-air -> B-air -> Up-b is too good.

-Wolfs upB angled at forward, up, and forward+up respectively had former angles of 65, 55, and special20, now 90, bases all are 80 from 80, 50, 60

Should link together properly now as well as be a slightly stronger aerial finisher on contact. Up-b kills are cool.

-Wolf's sideB all hitboxes now equivalent in proportional damage power (~80%) and angle to falcon's knee

Wolf's recovery sucks...we know that and so does everyone else. Instead of removing that weakness, Wolf should now just require a lot more awareness to edgeguard. If I screw this up, will I eat a knee and die or get edgeguarded myself?

-Zelda Fair sweetspot: 1.7x size

Old toe was too big.

Frame Speed Additions / Tweaks:
-MK dtilt has 6 frames of startup from 3

MK's d-tilt always led to a grab before and frankly was kind of stupid good. This keeps his setups from it, but makes it less of a safe poke.

-Ness dair 1.25x frame 0, 1x frame 16

Helps Ness's on the stage combo game and starting it up.

-Snake c4 detonation "Now" on frame 15 instead of 29

Gravity adjustments hurts Snake C4 recovery, this should help rectify that.

 

[_Yes!_]

hai gaiz!

so is fox's jab gonna send opponents up a bit or have a tiny bit of stun?

is fox's bair gonna less ending lag in the air?

i heard these things were in the works and was just curious.

I hope I can get a pink user name too :3

 

[goodoldganon]

hai gaiz!

so is fox's jab gonna send opponents up a bit or have a tiny bit of stun?

is fox's bair gonna less ending lag in the air?

i heard these things were in the works and was just curious.

I hope I can get a pink user name too :3

Yes to fox's jab. Most likely send up a bit.

We are still debating B-air. It's a risky move and frankly Fox doesn't need buffs is what many of us are saying, but it's still up for debate.