Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[GHNeko]

...oh ****. I forgot Marth had an Ftilt.

Seriously. Jesus christ. How the hell is that possible.

I guess his moveset isnt as hot as I thought it was if I seriously forgot that ftilt existed. x__x

 

[cman]

...oh ****. I forgot Marth had an Ftilt.

Seriously. Jesus christ. How the hell is that possible.

I guess his moveset isnt as hot as I thought it was if I seriously forgot that ftilt existed. x__x

I honestly can't tell whether you are joking or not.

Ftilt is a decent move, so i guess it could go either way...

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I honestly can't tell whether you are joking or not.

Ftilt is a decent move, so i guess it could go either way...

Totally not joking.

Ftilt not even decent in my opinion.
A Jab is a better "Gtfo" move than Ftilt.

 

[cman]

Totally not joking.

Ftilt not even decent in my opinion.
A Jab is a better "Gtfo" move than Ftilt.

Ftilt is a good anti aerial-approach attack because of its vertical range

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Ftilt is a good anti aerial-approach attack because of it's good vertical range

Dashdancing to grab is much better imo...

 

[GHNeko]

I honestly can't tell whether you are joking or not.

Ftilt is a decent move, so i guess it could go either way...

I'm dead serious. There are usually better options than Ftilt. I cant remember the last time I used ftilt on purpose.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I'm dead serious. There are usually better options than Ftilt. I cant remember the last time I used ftilt on purpose.

I've NEVER used Ftilt on purpose.

 

[cman]

Well of course there are better options. This is marth we are talking about. It is still a decent move, just not as good as his other stuff. It is not bad by any means.

 

[cubaisdeath]

yeah, its just not as good in comparison to the rest of his moves, thats all

 

[Arkaether]

A move, when outshadowed in every category by other moves, even if it is decent, is not worth using.

 

[GHNeko]

Helllo Marth Bthrow.

That's why whenever you get a Marth user...or just a knowledgeable user in general sees a Marth use Bthrow, they either ask Why or tell you to use Dthrow.

But enough about Marth.

What changes weren't talked about in the latest nightly.

 

[Arkaether]

I'm not sure, but I'd like to raise the idea of lowering jiggly's SH height a bit. It goes a tad too high for bair/fair to hit well on short characters, and WoP is better done with a full hop instead of a SH. A lowered SH would help with on-stage and ground spacing/hitting.

 

[GHNeko]

Do you think a change like that would be necessary with improved aerial mobility?

 

[cman]

Samus' new usmash works pretty well when certain characters are in front of you, but when they are above it hits once then they fall out and molest her. Some characters like sonic seem to not get pulled in even when in front as well. I'm not sure whether it is height based or some other factor atm though.

Overall an improvement, but still has some issues.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

A move, when outshadowed in every category by other moves, even if it is decent, is not worth using.

True.

Helllo Marth Bthrow.

That's why whenever you get a Marth user...or just a knowledgeable user in general sees a Marth use Bthrow, they either ask Why or tell you to use Dthrow.

But enough about Marth.

What changes weren't talked about in the latest nightly.

That's because we'd like these changes in the NEXT nightlies .

 

[_clinton]

Ness' momentum needs that change now...the short hop is worthless at his current leap...

Other than that...his aerial PK Fire is almost fixed with the full hop buff...he can currently double jump after an aerial PK Fire before he hits the ground...thus he can use his 2x air PK Fire stuff again...however he doesn't recover fast enough still...

 

[CountKaiser]

Ness' momentum needs that change now...the short hop is worthless at his current leap...

Other than that...his aerial PK Fire is almost fixed with the full hop buff...he can currently double jump after an aerial PK Fire before he hits the ground...thus he can use his 2x air PK Fire stuff again...however he doesn't recover fast enough still...

Well, how much extra momentum would he need? Are we talking Lucas momentum or Sonic momentum or what?

Also, his fair does a good job of linking the hits, but the final hit doesn't send people far enough, and it has a crappy angle to it.

We could always exchange one buff for another. If it comes to that, I'd like the dsmash buff to go away first.

 

[thesage]

Well, I was kinda hoping to save this for when I was actually done testing all the stuff out and the nightly build not have any of the new Ness things for a while since the buffs were kinda built on each other and simply remove the buffs he received previously (except for maybe the running attack buff, still iffy on the pkt1 buff). So the sh was kinda designed to work with the new momentum. If his aerial momentum isn't increased, I'd still rather keep the lower sh since it resembles djc'ing and his melee sh quite nicely.

I was kinda designing Ness as a completely offensive character with a crappy recovery and has problemsdealing with camping. Pkt1 can't really be used for juggles since it lacks hitstun and the improved gravity makes tailwhipping useless. So it's really just a recovery buff. If he's bad enough that he needs a recovery buff even with my proposed changes, I'd rather him have the ability to sweetspot stages with pkt2 or have a higher dj since anybody with half a mind can gimp/punish pkt2. I know a lot of people will disagree with that though... Ness has always had a bad recovery and it's always been one of his main weaknesses. I think it's a good balance to the character.

I wish there were more active members for Brawl+ Ness. I really don't feel cofortable being one of two people who mains him... =/

 

[Revven]

I wish there were more active members for Brawl+ Ness. I really don't feel cofortable being one of two people who mains him... =/

Simna plays Brawl+, talk to him. (Unless that's who you meant).

 

[Wingflier]

Samus' new usmash works pretty well when certain characters are in front of you, but when they are above it hits once then they fall out and molest her. Some characters like sonic seem to not get pulled in even when in front as well. I'm not sure whether it is height based or some other factor atm though.

Overall an improvement, but still has some issues.

I main Samus and I NEVER use her up-smash anyways. It's not worth it, even after the change. It's much better to short-hop d-air, short hop n-air, or find another alternative. Unless they are at a pretty high percentage you are just going to be punished anyways. The hitstun and knockback is pathetic.

They would probably have to be at 250%+ for it to kill them.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ness is my tertiary, but I guess that doesn't really count does it.

 

[Deleted member]

I wish there were more active members for Brawl+ Ness. I really don't feel cofortable being one of two people who mains him... =/

I basically main Ness now, actually. And frankly, I feel like you and _clinton need to work harder to improve. I don't see why Ness needs any more buffs than he already does. He's been given a major overhaul - what you two ask for is just making things easier for you.

Someone posted earlier - "omg yes I can finally sh-Dair to fh-dair over and over again!"

You could already do that, folks. :/

 

[bajisci]

Ness is my tertiary, but I guess that doesn't really count does it.

word ness is my quarternary :D

 

[thesage]

I though simna just randomly posts in the irc chat.

Simna would rather focus on buffing Ness's recovery and pkt. The changes he wants are:

Pkt2 doesn't go into freefall (so he can do pkt2 as his recovery first and then use dj)
Pkt travels faster
no half distance when pkt2 hits somebody

Though he said my buffs would work as well... it's basically choosing whether Ness can be offensive, or he has above average survivability for his size.

@delorted, I already knew dair is good combo move, but like in melee, it was hard to hit with. I just saw too many similarities with what was then brawl+ Ness and melee Ness (who was terrible lol) and I'd rather him simulate 64 Ness lol.

I wasn't reffering to simna, I was reffering to clinton lol. I didn't know simna actually played at all. He quit smash a long time ago.

 

[Deleted member]

So that was you who was wow'd with the improved d-air?

...it didn't need improvements. :/ Anyway, Simna's suggestions are actually pretty legit.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I'm liking the new Ness so far. Only gripe is the super low short hop. It just feels a bit off, but I suppose I'll get used to it.


Ness is feeling pretty good now. Only thing I really want now is to be able to PKF cancel again.

 

[stingers]

i think simnas suggestions sound perfect o.o

 

[CountKaiser]

PKT moving fast is the reason why aiming Ness' PKT2 requires muscle memory. Making it faster would only make this worse.

Also, I rather not buff a character's weakness anymore. I rather we try to caterto what Ness is, an aerial character.

I don't think momentum on his jump is too much to ask, and I don't see why people don't like this. Ness is an aerial character. The low sh, combined with momentum, and high fj allow him to emulate DJC and allows Ness to be aggro, like he was in Smash 64, where he was best.

I rather he be offensive than have above average survivability.

 

[goodoldganon]

Projectiles can't be sped up. Don't get your hopes up.

 

[GHNeko]

Wouldnt making ness fall slower during PKT be worth looking into?

 

[stingers]

his fall speed during pkt isn't really a big problem, it's the fact he goes nowhere and dies if a feather crosses his path on the way back to the stage

 

[goodoldganon]

If there is an action ID difference between 'Ness hits an enemy' and 'Ness travels freely' we'll look into it. If not then it's tough **** guys, I'm sorry. Your concerns have been logged. Anything else?

 

[grim mouser]

Anyone else think Ness d-air is too fast? It's creepy. o.o

Good for Ness, of course, but IDK if it's too good yet.

 

[GHNeko]

As long as its not ganon good. :V

What do you guys think about allowing ness to fall slower during PKT before PKT2

 

[Mattnumbers]

Someone posted earlier - "omg yes I can finally sh-Dair to fh-dair over and over again!"

You could already do that, folks. :/

Except it wasn't a combo, so no you couldn't.

And It's really just two Dairs because after that they can tech it. It's still fun as hell though.

I personally would much rather have Ness be extra offensive then have him have more survivability. And I like the super low SH.

 

[Jimbo_G]

Hey, got some Mario and Wolf feedback. My testing is a little limited right now, but I'll let you know what I can.

Wolf's Side-B seems to be an all-around buff from the original. It's still a pretty craptastic move with little application other than recovering, but at least landing a sweetspot onstage can kill now instead of placing them right at your feet for a Ukemi attack. I honestly don't understand Sakurai's reasoning for only giving the sweetspot a spike, unlike Falco's that always spikes. It should be a spike or no spike, not a ******* mix of the two.

As for Mario's Uair, I'm a little on the fence. The new angle allows him to get more Uairs off, but in a few cases I found comboing into a Fair led to a lot of sourspots that he normally wouldn't get. Maybe I still have to get used to it, it's too early to tell. It's just an observation so far. I'm hoping the new angle isn't placing them too high above Mario that his Fair Spikes can no longer hit consistently. Anyone else play Mario that has the same problem?

 

[thesage]

So that was you who was wow'd with the improved d-air?

...it didn't need improvements. :/ Anyway, Simna's suggestions are actually pretty legit.

I already knew the dair was good at combo'ing... I thought it was dumb it came out in 20frames. It's basically ganon's dair that's semi disjointed, but with less range than ganon's and does around 10 less damage. Hitting with it was a problem in melee and contributed to ness' lameness in that game.

Simna wants to do a lot of weird stuff with pkt (basically make it the central point of ness' game). He probably could explain it better himself. I'll try to get him to post his ideas in a more organized format.

 

[Zodac]

can you make falcons UP B FALCON DIVE have a larger hitbox?

:V

Since when could you mod hitbox sizes, i thought people said it was impossible or something

 

[GHNeko]

As for Mario's Uair, I'm a little on the fence. The new angle allows him to get more Uairs off, but in a few cases I found comboing into a Fair led to a lot of sourspots that he normally wouldn't get. Maybe I still have to get used to it, it's too early to tell. It's just an observation so far. I'm hoping the new angle isn't placing them too high above Mario that his Fair Spikes can no longer hit consistently. Anyone else play Mario that has the same problem?

I'm definiately against it, the new angle can be DI'd Up and away IIRC and is better when you hit from within the hitbox rather than at the feet (which is not good because that effectively cuts the range in which uair is useful.)

Its good for juggles at low percents, and reverse uair is good and all, but I personally dont like it because you have to pretty much be trying to merge with their hurtbox for the uair to juggle really well, anything near the calves and feet (ie longer ends of the hitbox) allow the opponent to DI away, and at high percents (80%+) after an uair, you can only follow up with a DJ uair.

The change does more harm than good. It takes away its versatility and buffs/homogenizes it for certain situations/percents, and cuts its use down at lower percents than the old uair did. >:

as for the DJ Fair, I couldnt land a sweetspotted one. Might be the buffer though (****ing training mode) as there were times where they seemed to be in the perfect spot, but then it hit me that there was no DI involved. :/

can you make falcons UP B FALCON DIVE have a larger hitbox?

:V

Since when could you mod hitbox sizes, i thought people said it was impossible or something

Poserrrrr.

 

[_clinton]

I'm liking the new Ness so far. Only gripe is the super low short hop. It just feels a bit off, but I suppose I'll get used to it.


Ness is feeling pretty good now. Only thing I really want now is to be able to PKF cancel again.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like the super low short hop for some reasons (although my reasons are a bit different I guess)

Overall I'm pretty happy with PK Thunder...the whole no freefalling PKT1 and with a big boost to making Ness recover faster from it is a nice thing IMO...but still...I could think of some things I'd like Ness to have (As for things overall...the fact is...Ness' psychic powers and toys are some of his traits that I like about him)